Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi,

I posted here a little while ago when I was in a bit more confusion with this. I'm still unsure as to how to proceed though... Since I've been binding more regularly I've felt much more comfortable going out places. I've also found that there are very very few times when I 'don't mind' being seen as female. As in, maybe occasionally on my own in the house, for an hour...lol I may feel female now and again. Or feminine...still haven't worked that one out. Yet I feel happiest if I get gendered male when out (even if I use they pronouns myself) and I'm thinking more and more how much I'd like to have chest surgery and wondering what the effect of T might be.

It feels a bit scary but also really genuinely exciting and I'm trying not to get carried away, but the thought of being male permanently is one I welcome... At the same time, I like having some feminine aspects to my style and also androgynous aspects (I would probably want to be a bit of a femme guy, although not overly so - just not super masculine). I think I sit somewhere between non-binary and male on the 'scale' but I'm not sure how far along it I am, and if it's worth persuing. Obviously things like surgery and hormones are pretty irreversible. Also, can I still identify as non-binary AND male? Or masculine? I know some people do...I've Googled the hell out of this in my anxiety :P But somehow I feel like I may get challenged on this a lot if I do seek gender therapy with the intention of getting hormones/surgery. All I know is that I keep crying all the time at the thought of trying to present as female anymore, in any situation. I don't know why... I keep trying to reassure myself that it's not that I think being a woman is bad (though I'm feeling like somehow I'm letting down the side by not wanting to be one...which is messed up I know) because some people have questioned by identity saying that I'm just reacting to the pressures society puts on women. For some reason it just makes me feel like I'm hiding...That I'm never going to be confident in myself living in a bit of an inbetween state. I thought I could do it but I'm feeling very dysphoric about my chest every day. Other things irk me too, but that's the one that's inescapable somehow.

Any advice would be great...

It is possible to be non binary and transition. We have members who post things like the are 20% current gender and 80% opposite gender which means they are more comfortable if they transition. For MTFs it's easer because they can to a test run with HRT for a few months. With FTMs it more difficult because testosterone is so strong. I suspect that an estrogen blocker might be a good alternative but they are expensive and tend only to be used with teenagers.

As somebody who is binary, there was always the safety of not transitioning. It wasn't risky and life was very predictable if I didn't transition but the drive to transition was strong. I don't know if this is what you feel or if there are times that you are truly comfortable in the feminine role.

I identify as demi male (someone who is mostly male but also slightly another gender, for me agender). I made the decision to take T because the dysphoria became too much and simply coping wasn't giving me any quality of life. I like some changes T has given me; but not others such as becoming more muscular.  My gender expression is mainly feminine so my body not fitting into that gives me mild dysphoria. As well as being seen by everyone as male and feeling in between. But all in all I feel a lot happier and calmer within myself. I think you need to weigh up the pros and cons of HRT and ask yourself if the mental benefits of it outweigh the physical negatives.

As for seeing a therapist; even one specialising in gender will unlikely have experience of nb people. It might be best to just go along with the assumption that you're a binary trans guy in order to get a referral for hormones and/or surgery. Which is what I did.

I am right where you are.  I am trans-feminine.  After I had been in therapy a while, I explained to my wife how genderfluid worked, but being honest with myself, I'm not genderfluid.  I spent the majority of my time on the feminine end of the scale.  At 50+, often wonder if the male that I do have comes more from pretending to be male for most of my life, or if it is really there.  I have talked to mtf friends of mine and they say that feeling never really goes away - you are the sum of your experiences.  So who knows?

I have always wanted breasts.  When I look at myself in the mirror as an adult, it was always a sad thing.  Being on HRT long enough to develop any amount of profile has been wonderful.  I was noticing in the shower this morning how the water that ran straight down my chest for most of my life and was now streaming down like a waterfall going over a cliff.  Such a small thing, and such a great joy. 

But there is the dark side.  I worry sometimes that my hand will be forced.  That I'll get so large that I will have no choice but to fully transition.  I'd prefer it did not come to that.   I love all the other benefits of HRT such as thinning body hair and my general mood and sense of peace.  I'd hate to be forced into a decision to have to stop or not stop.  I do not want to go backward.  I know life is not static, but I also know that at least for today, things are good. 

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Dena - I totally agree that the safety of not transitioning is playing a part. I guess cause it's such a massive step... I don't think there are ever times I am fully comfortable in the female role. Or even halfway comfortable. But there's something in me that wishes I could 'make myself'? If that makes sense? It's like I'm mourning something that never existed...I keep looking at other women and wishing I could be so carefree about my gender, and make the best of it.

Elis - it sounds like you're quite similar to me, although personally I would welcome some more muscle...I'm a stringy thing at the moment! I'm a little more hesitant about the growth of body hair...that's probably the main aspect of T that I feel a little uncomfortable about. I know I could probably try and shave it, but I get the impression from a lot of transguys on YouTube that there is A LOT of it! I wish more gender specialists did have experience with non binary as there seem to be a lot of people defining themselves by that label now, but maybe things will get better in that regard in the future.

Lindsey - I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the effects of your hormone therapy :) It must be great to feel that sense of peace - I feel like every day, thought, action is a struggle right now. In many ways I feel torn, but also like I have no way forward except to keep going down the male route. I spend a lot of time wondering how much of my femininity is just internalised thoughts from how I was brought up, and how much is truly me. I spent quite a bit of my childhood being firstly unaware of being male or female (my mum never really encouraged me to a girly girl!) and then being hugely aware as I moved closer to my teens, to the point where I feel like I tried too hard to copy other girls I knew. I might as well admit that this pressure quickly resulted in me developing an eating disorder, which is still hanging around in various guises today... Thinking about it, I feel as if my current gender confusion should have been evident to me from a much earlier time, except that I haven't really been able to give it much thought till now due to my mind being too consumed with basic survival. Also, I think I confused my dysphoria with general body dysmorphia...perhaps because that seems easier to deal with? 

Quote from: mischief_brew on June 18, 2017, 12:20:13 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Elis - it sounds like you're quite similar to me, although personally I would welcome some more muscle...I'm a stringy thing at the moment! I'm a little more hesitant about the growth of body hair...that's probably the main aspect of T that I feel a little uncomfortable about. I know I could probably try and shave it, but I get the impression from a lot of transguys on YouTube that there is A LOT of it! I wish more gender specialists did have experience with non binary as there seem to be a lot of people defining themselves by that label now, but maybe things will get better in that regard in the future.

Lindsey - I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the effects of your hormone therapy :) It must be great to feel that sense of peace - I feel like every day, thought, action is a struggle right now. In many ways I feel torn, but also like I have no way forward except to keep going down the male route. I spend a lot of time wondering how much of my femininity is just internalised thoughts from how I was brought up, and how much is truly me. I spent quite a bit of my childhood being firstly unaware of being male or female (my mum never really encouraged me to a girly girl!) and then being hugely aware as I moved closer to my teens, to the point where I feel like I tried too hard to copy other girls I knew. I might as well admit that this pressure quickly resulted in me developing an eating disorder, which is still hanging around in various guises today... Thinking about it, I feel as if my current gender confusion should have been evident to me from a much earlier time, except that I haven't really been able to give it much thought till now due to my mind being too consumed with basic survival. Also, I think I confused my dysphoria with general body dysmorphia...perhaps because that seems easier to deal with?

Yeah the body hair is also a huge annoyance :P.  As long as I shave it off regularly is much easier to deal with; although it's a hassle.

In regards to body dysmorphia I probably had a very mild case of it before I realised I was trans. Or simply had very low self esteem. I refused to look at my body in any reflective surface and couldn't see myself as anything but ugly and fat. I still have some of those issues still. So that's was probably one of the reasons I didn't think I was trans as that feeling is quite a common thing girls feel. One of the other reasons being I wanted desperately to be 'normal' and living in a place where LGBT anything was never discussed.

Quote from: mischief_brew on June 18, 2017, 12:20:13 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Lindsey - I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the effects of your hormone therapy :) It must be great to feel that sense of peace - I feel like every day, thought, action is a struggle right now. In many ways I feel torn, but also like I have no way forward except to keep going down the male route. I spend a lot of time wondering how much of my femininity is just internalised thoughts from how I was brought up, and how much is truly me. I spent quite a bit of my childhood being firstly unaware of being male or female (my mum never really encouraged me to a girly girl!) and then being hugely aware as I moved closer to my teens, to the point where I feel like I tried too hard to copy other girls I knew. I might as well admit that this pressure quickly resulted in me developing an eating disorder, which is still hanging around in various guises today... Thinking about it, I feel as if my current gender confusion should have been evident to me from a much earlier time, except that I haven't really been able to give it much thought till now due to my mind being too consumed with basic survival. Also, I think I confused my dysphoria with general body dysmorphia...perhaps because that seems easier to deal with?

I know what you mean.  One of my earliest memories was being laid down for a nap in my parents' bed and crawling into my mom's nightie.  She came to get me up, saw me, picked me up and ran down to the basement to show my father.  It was not done in a mean way.  If I had to guess I'd say she was amused.  I can say looking back that I became aware I had broken some unwritten and unspoken rule.  And I felt shame.  The noise from that lasted a long time with me. 

Quote from: Elis on June 18, 2017, 02:40:12 AM
Yeah the body hair is also a huge annoyance :P.  As long as I shave it off regularly is much easier to deal with; although it's a hassle.

In regards to body dysmorphia I probably had a very mild case of it before I realised I was trans. Or simply had very low self esteem. I refused to look at my body in any reflective surface and couldn't see myself as anything but ugly and fat. I still have some of those issues still. So that's was probably one of the reasons I didn't think I was trans as that feeling is quite a common thing girls feel. One of the other reasons being I wanted desperately to be 'normal' and living in a place where LGBT anything was never discussed.

It does seem to be quite common that girls will openly hate their bodies. I know plenty of men who have shame about theirs as well (LGBT or otherwise) but it seems to be something they keep to themselves, whereas girls almost try to bond over it?? I've never understood that one. I also have a massive desire to be normal, as in, if only I were 'pretty' enough or wore the right clothes, maybe I wouldn't want to change myself anymore? This argument always feels flimsy to me,  seeing as I've managed to do the girl thing well enough on occassion, but it's a doubt that I use to beat myself up with... Have those doubts gone away now you're on hormones? Now that you've kinda made some solid decisions about how you feel and wish to present?

Quote from: LindseyP on June 18, 2017, 10:27:58 PM
I know what you mean.  One of my earliest memories was being laid down for a nap in my parents' bed and crawling into my mom's nightie.  She came to get me up, saw me, picked me up and ran down to the basement to show my father.  It was not done in a mean way.  If I had to guess I'd say she was amused.  I can say looking back that I became aware I had broken some unwritten and unspoken rule.  And I felt shame.  The noise from that lasted a long time with me. 

That must have been confusing and upsetting... I remember a time when I was in Primary School and my friend's sister was filling out some stupid secret diary and asked if I had any secrets, before saying that I liked girls, didn't I? ...which was unsettling. Not because it was 100% true (I definitely have a preference for women, but I'm bi/pan if anything) but because it made me feel like she saw me as a 'boy' for some reason (and in my head at that time, only boys liked girls cause I didn't know about being gay). I felt kinda found out, or made to feel like it was wrong to be like that. Like I wasn't part of her world - I wasn't a 'proper' girl. And so began a very long period of isolation and withdrawing from any kind of romantic or sexual involvement through complete and utter shame. Hurrah for friends eh? :P

One thing I did want to tack onto this post that I considered making another topic, but thought I may be hogging the space, was whether people think those that identify as non-binary are in general more doubtful and confused about their identity than binary trans people? And if so, can it ever really go away? Do you feel pressure to push yourself more to the opposite gender you were assigned just to 'pass' as andro/non binary?

Quote from: mischief_brew on June 24, 2017, 04:02:48 AM
It does seem to be quite common that girls will openly hate their bodies. I know plenty of men who have shame about theirs as well (LGBT or otherwise) but it seems to be something they keep to themselves, whereas girls almost try to bond over it?? I've never understood that one. I also have a massive desire to be normal, as in, if only I were 'pretty' enough or wore the right clothes, maybe I wouldn't want to change myself anymore? This argument always feels flimsy to me,  seeing as I've managed to do the girl thing well enough on occassion, but it's a doubt that I use to beat myself up with... Have those doubts gone away now you're on hormones? Now that you've kinda made some solid decisions about how you feel and wish to present?

Yeah; the girl bonding thing over low self esteem is something I never understood either. Reminds me of that scene in Mean Girls were the Lindsey Lohan character was making friends with the pretty popular girls who were talking about what they hated about their bodies. When Lohan was expected to say something she hated about herself she said she couldn't think of anything; causing the girls to think she was conceited and self absorbed  :P.

That film gets written off as just another teen comedy but it has some really insightful true and relatable scenes in it.

Yeah I always just felt ugly and thought like you if I was just 'pretty' enough my life will magically be fixed.

Only recently (within the last few months) I've started to like how I look and not care so much what other people think. Before then I looked in between male and female, then I had water retention due to the T, then I was disappointed that the changes seemed slow. Plus I became chunkier/chubbier due to a mix of the T and overeating. Plus I didn't and still don't like sometimes how I don't have the slim androgynous body I want. But I've mostly accepted I simply don't have that body type. But even with all that going on only within the first 6 months less had I thought to myself WTH was I doing; then I thought back to how bad my dysphoria was and those doubts went away. Not saying the negatives to scare you off; just a heads up that taking HRT isn't a magical solution; it takes your own determination to let go of all those self esteem issues you had in the past. But the HRT does help you feel calmer and not care as much. The first year is definitely the hardest but once you get through that it becomes much easier.

Hey there! You're in a confusing situation. When I started to transition my objective was to become a regular, feminine girl. Now, after a year, I'm satisfied with my changes, my name and female identity, but I started to think a while ago that maybe some masculine aspects weren't so bad.

I still use my old male shirts, vests and jackets combined with female pants and shoes. I don't mind being identified as a male, and I actually enjoy when people can't say whether I'm an man or a woman and have to ask.

Maybe transitioning took some weight off me and I can enjoy certain male aspects I hated before.

Maybe I switched my vision of a woman, from a girly and feminine girl to a not so feminine female dandy. Maybe you need something similar. Remember not all men are the same. You have masculine and feminine, delicate cis men. You don't have to be the most masculine person to be a man.

Take a look into Asian novels and movies and anime. You'll find lots of feminine male protagonist, as beautiful and delicate as women, sometimes even more, yet girls still are madly in love with them.

Quote from: Elis on June 24, 2017, 07:31:48 AM
Only recently (within the last few months) I've started to like how I look and not care so much what other people think. Before then I looked in between male and female, then I had water retention due to the T, then I was disappointed that the changes seemed slow. Plus I became chunkier/chubbier due to a mix of the T and overeating. Plus I didn't and still don't like sometimes how I don't have the slim androgynous body I want. But I've mostly accepted I simply don't have that body type. But even with all that going on only within the first 6 months less had I thought to myself WTH was I doing; then I thought back to how bad my dysphoria was and those doubts went away. Not saying the negatives to scare you off; just a heads up that taking HRT isn't a magical solution; it takes your own determination to let go of all those self esteem issues you had in the past. But the HRT does help you feel calmer and not care as much. The first year is definitely the hardest but once you get through that it becomes much easier.

Well, for sure this gives me more to think about. I'd been putting HRT on the back burner again after a stressful week and trying to just put up with being feminine and read that way, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything for my confusion. I am concerned about the weight gain issue, as a lot of people who take T seem to get this (not quite the wiry androgynous male frame I have in my head) but the thought of being a bit bigger than I am now doesn't completely scare me. I wonder if perhaps I would be able to frame the added weight as part of becoming more masculine, and not as the 'weakness' that my disordered brain might think it is. I don't understand why I only seem to be so negative about my own weight, but generally admire people who are bigger/stronger than me, whether they are male or female. Eating disorders are stupid. But back to topic, I think that one of the main reasons I get read as female is that my arms aren't very big and even if the weight wasn't muscle it would give the appearance of being a bit stronger? Perhaps... I'm guessing the weight doesn't go on uncontrollably fast? Or is it very hard to keep on top of it? I also have a tendency to overeat from stress so it may be unavoidable, which does scare me. I may end up giving up my dysphoria for worse self esteem. Agh.

In terms of the other effects though, I've heard that T can give you a bit more confidence and maybe that would balance out my body hang ups...? You mentioned that it has made you feel calmer and more carefree? On a separate note, this may be a bit tmi but I've often thought I was asexual because my disconnect is so strong from my body that I rarely have any hint of a sex drive. I'm kind of hoping that T may jump start that area of things for me, but maybe again that's a bit optimistic of me?

Lady Lisandra - I'm glad transitioning has helped you be more open with the ways you feel comfortable dressing or expressing yourself. I'm hoping that I will feel similar and that maybe I just need to swing a bit further the other way physically before I'll feel comfortable enough to do that? I don't want to restrict myself, but because I am obviously female to any onlookers at the moment, it's hard not to feel that I can't wear X, Y or Z anymore. Maybe I should change that to 'for now'. I definitely identify more with a feminine guy's form/style, but as Elis has said, HRT may not give me that and I'm anxious that perhaps my body will swing too far to the masculine side and past the point that I would ideally want. Which I suppose would be ok if I didn't want to present more androgynously masculine than 'macho' masculine...

Mischief brew- my body type is sort of chunky. Even pre T I had broad shoulders and my fat went all on my stomach and hips. If you don't have that sort of body type on T you should still be sort if wiry. There's a ftm you tuber called Jammiedodger who had a thin wiry shape pre T and still had one 5 years on T. He only gained some muscles onto his shoulders and arms.
What sort of helps my hangups about my weight is looking in the mirror and thinking about how much stronger I now look. Even my arms somehow look more muscular and not so much like it's just extra fat.
I think because T makes you hungrier that causes the weight gain. So it happens sort of subtle. With 6 months on T I went from 9.10 stone to 10.6 although I didn't really think I looked 'fat'. And I still don't understand how I was all of a sudden that much heavier. But that's most likely just due to being overweight running in my family, high amounts of stress and not bothering to plan what I'm eating. It's definitely can be avoidable.

And being on T didn't cure me of my demi sexuality unfortunately. I've always felt asexual so I think that's just how I was born rather than it being caused by dysphoria from being trans.  I still can't look at people and feel that urge to have sex with someone. I enjoy the concept but that's as far as it goes.

I think that no trans person is 100% sure when starting T. Sometimes you just have to go for it rather than cause yourself mental distress by constantly weighing up pros and cons. If you have frequent cycles of feeling dysohoric HRT is the best treatment.

Quote from: mischief_brew on July 02, 2017, 04:02:57 AM
Well, for sure this gives me more to think about. I'd been putting HRT on the back burner again after a stressful week and trying to just put up with being feminine and read that way, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything for my confusion. I am concerned about the weight gain issue, as a lot of people who take T seem to get this (not quite the wiry androgynous male frame I have in my head) but the thought of being a bit bigger than I am now doesn't completely scare me. I wonder if perhaps I would be able to frame the added weight as part of becoming more masculine, and not as the 'weakness' that my disordered brain might think it is. I don't understand why I only seem to be so negative about my own weight, but generally admire people who are bigger/stronger than me, whether they are male or female. Eating disorders are stupid. But back to topic, I think that one of the main reasons I get read as female is that my arms aren't very big and even if the weight wasn't muscle it would give the appearance of being a bit stronger? Perhaps... I'm guessing the weight doesn't go on uncontrollably fast? Or is it very hard to keep on top of it? I also have a tendency to overeat from stress so it may be unavoidable, which does scare me. I may end up giving up my dysphoria for worse self esteem.

Interesting, the same is often said about estrogen HRT. It seems like both couldn't be correct. T would make it easier to build muscle, though some can be built without it. Pumping iron, or having some manual labor job is required in either case.

I'm a bit stuck on this question myself. I want to be read as a woman and be called Veronica and have she/her pronouns, though I'm still not sure about HRT. I definitely want the facial hair and body hair to be gone, but that is done mostly by other means like electrolysis and laser. I'd rather have the super skinny body I had before I started drinking everyday to deal with this than have lots of curves. I want to keep the long hair on my head, but I'm getting more open to the idea of wearing a wig if it falls out. It seems like the only reason to do HRT is whatver mental things it might do that people here and elsewhere talk about, but I'm OK with how I am mentally. Not sure if not wanting to have to be on HRT makes one non-binary though, also not really sure exactly what does.

Then again, focusing too much on this somewhat abstract question can keep your focus off what you really want to change. For me, it's the facial hair.

Quote from: Lady Lisandra on July 01, 2017, 07:47:39 PM
Hey there! You're in a confusing situation. When I started to transition my objective was to become a regular, feminine girl. Now, after a year, I'm satisfied with my changes, my name and female identity, but I started to think a while ago that maybe some masculine aspects weren't so bad.

I still use my old male shirts, vests and jackets combined with female pants and shoes. I don't mind being identified as a male, and I actually enjoy when people can't say whether I'm an man or a woman and have to ask.

Maybe transitioning took some weight off me and I can enjoy certain male aspects I hated before.

Maybe I switched my vision of a woman, from a girly and feminine girl to a not so feminine female dandy. Maybe you need something similar. Remember not all men are the same. You have masculine and feminine, delicate cis men. You don't have to be the most masculine person to be a man.

Take a look into Asian novels and movies and anime. You'll find lots of feminine male protagonist, as beautiful and delicate as women, sometimes even more, yet girls still are madly in love with them.

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Hi Elis, I've watched quite a lot of Jammiedodger's videos and found them quite helpful in terms of seeing the results I might expect with T given that I don't intend to work out much (although it's always on the list of things I wish I did more!). I think I could stand to gain a bit of weight, I guess I'm just worried about it being out of control... but again, that could happen on or off T so it may be a moot point. I'm glad that you're feeling stronger in your body, I'm looking forward to bulking up a bit! I have heard about the hunger changes...does eating protein and slow release type foods help with feeling satisfied at all?

I find it interesting that you didn't find it altering your demisexuality, but then in a way it makes sense, since sexual orientation/interest is often more mind-based than because of any objective hormonal issue. I live in hope however... Hmm...

Thanks as well for your straight talking re: pros and cons. I'm such a terribly indecisive person that I think I could well talk myself in circles forever about this if I wanted. As it happens, I have an appointment with my psychiatrist tomorrow so I think I'll bring it up then. I may start trying to keep a bit of a diary for my dysphoria though...just to see if there is a consistency to it and if certain things make it worse. Don't know if that sounds silly but sometimes I just try to ignore it and then I kid myself it's not there until it gets majorly triggered. I had a discussion with my partner the other day, regarding hormones, and they also seemed to be saying "well why not, what's the down side" which may be sliightly over optimistic but then my anxiety kicked in with all the "what if, what if, what if" and the whole "why can't I just be a confident woman!" stuff came out to play. It's weird that it's still there even though I've identified as non-binary for 6 months properly now. I guess I wish that I could be feeling good enough in myself that I knew I was making the decision for the *right* reasons. Depression/anxiety and confidence don't really go hand in hand though.

Sorry for the excessive wordage!

Hi Veronica, you seem to be in a similar situation, albeit regarding different hormones...it's a difficult one for sure. I think there's definitely a sense of "I can make do without" in a way, although in many ways I can't. When you mentioned what would I actually like to change, so focusing on the positives rather than the negatives, I would say that I would like a more masculine form (so fat distribution change), a lower voice would be awesome and then the mental benefits of more energy/strength and hopefully...confidence (although I recognise that perhaps not everyone gets these). The only other real change that I would like is top surgery, as I hate wearing my binder even though the silhouette it gives me is preferable. I could do without the body hair for sure, and the inevitability of spots and being a bit smellier...but I'm guessing I could just keep shaving my hair off as it grows...I'm envisioning small forests but my imagination may be getting carried away!

Quote from: mischief_brew on July 03, 2017, 09:27:55 AM
I guess I wish that I could be feeling good enough in myself that I knew I was making the decision for the *right* reasons. Depression/anxiety and confidence don't really go hand in hand though.

Sorry for the excessive wordage!

Hi Veronica, you seem to be in a similar situation, albeit regarding different hormones...it's a difficult one for sure. I think there's definitely a sense of "I can make do without" in a way, although in many ways I can't. When you mentioned what would I actually like to change, so focusing on the positives rather than the negatives, I would say that I would like a more masculine form (so fat distribution change), a lower voice would be awesome and then the mental benefits of more energy/strength and hopefully...confidence (although I recognise that perhaps not everyone gets these). The only other real change that I would like is top surgery, as I hate wearing my binder even though the silhouette it gives me is preferable. I could do without the body hair for sure, and the inevitability of spots and being a bit smellier...but I'm guessing I could just keep shaving my hair off as it grows...I'm envisioning small forests but my imagination may be getting carried away!

Being in a state of continually questioning your gender isn't very good for confidence either. I'm not sure T causes confidence, seeing how I am currently producing T, and still go through periods of not being confident. I am totally confident I am not cis-gender at least. I'd say being really confident in some areas of your life tends to spread it to all areas of your life. I was really confident for a period of time when I was in denial, haven't quite been that since. Gender is such a large part of who you are in this world, for whatever reason.

I currently like transfeminine as my label, as it leaves it open as to whether I'm binary or non-binary. I don't really like to think of this question, as after years of thinking about it, I don't have an answer. I don't think I want everything a binary MtF transition entails, thankfully in 2017, I don't have to.

I'm not against other people being on HRT, if it helps them. Maybe it can help you. You unfortunately can't pick and choose it's effects though it seems like you want most of them.

This is something I think about pretty regularly (see screenname, :D), though I'm at a different point in my processing, I think, since I'm really settled on certain types of medical transition and very comfortable with what that will mean for my body. My current position on the "am I am man or a non-binary person" question is: it's impossible to say, and that's OK. Naming things can be tough for fluid/agender/nonbinary trans people, I think: I have a transmasculine friend on T who is dating a non-binary amab trans person. They have completely different relationships to masculinity, but they both put on eyeliner together before going out dancing. I don't think there's an easy category for either of them, but they sure are wonderful humans and I love the way they exist in the world.  :)

Gender and sexuality are obviously very different things, but they definitely intersect when we talk about what counts as "masculinity" or "femininity" and what it means. There's a specific kind of socialization and gender presentation among myself/other trans friends who intersect with gay men in terms of community and orientation, but it's wildly difficult to define in these contexts, or decide how these categorize affect either the gender or orientation identities of everyone involved.

For instance: what's the difference between the kind of masculinity I share with most of my cis gay friends, and my own? How does a queer performance of masculinity intersect with genderfluid/gender variant identities? Gay men can clearly be cis, but perform their gender in the same way as a non-binary person.  Am I a femme man or a non-binary transmasculine person?  Is there a clear difference? My transfemme friends (who are not quite lesbian-identified but whose relationships most definitely resemble lesbian relationships far more than mine do) have real differences in terms of how their relationships work and who they find attractive/how they express their affection...but it's difficult to articulate and there are exceptions to literally everything here.  There's a beautiful, varied array of possibilities in terms of gender, identity, and desire, and it's something I think our language isn't completely capable of capturing yet.

I want to masculinize my body as much as possible, because that's how I see myself--but I also want to play with how I perform my identity with that body, if that makes sense?  I've sorta settled on being fine with being called a gay man, or a queer masculine person, a nonbinary trans man, a femme guy--each of these things misses a little something in who I am and who I love, but it's there in how I relate to other people and to my body.  I use he and they interchangeably, and I really only feel badly misgendered if I get "she" or "ma'am."

In terms of gender therapy letters for transition services, it's easier to just say I'm a man and give "queer" or "gay" as my orientation if asked--it's not a date, and it's sometimes easier to simplify these things in clinical contexts.  I'm lucky that I have access to a provider that doesn't consider sexual orientation when evaluating a trans person's need to access transition resources--I don't know if that's an issue for you, but it's good to be aware that some providers are really old school/discriminatory about nonbinary genders and/or sexual orientations.

^ sorry it's a bit long, I've had too much coffee  ;D

Quote from: mischief_brew on July 03, 2017, 09:27:55 AM
Hi Elis, I've watched quite a lot of Jammiedodger's videos and found them quite helpful in terms of seeing the results I might expect with T given that I don't intend to work out much (although it's always on the list of things I wish I did more!). I think I could stand to gain a bit of weight, I guess I'm just worried about it being out of control... but again, that could happen on or off T so it may be a moot point. I'm glad that you're feeling stronger in your body, I'm looking forward to bulking up a bit! I have heard about the hunger changes...does eating protein and slow release type foods help with feeling satisfied at all?

I find it interesting that you didn't find it altering your demisexuality, but then in a way it makes sense, since sexual orientation/interest is often more mind-based than because of any objective hormonal issue. I live in hope however... Hmm...

Thanks as well for your straight talking re: pros and cons. I'm such a terribly indecisive person that I think I could well talk myself in circles forever about this if I wanted. As it happens, I have an appointment with my psychiatrist tomorrow so I think I'll bring it up then. I may start trying to keep a bit of a diary for my dysphoria though...just to see if there is a consistency to it and if certain things make it worse. Don't know if that sounds silly but sometimes I just try to ignore it and then I kid myself it's not there until it gets majorly triggered. I had a discussion with my partner the other day, regarding hormones, and they also seemed to be saying "well why not, what's the down side" which may be sliightly over optimistic but then my anxiety kicked in with all the "what if, what if, what if" and the whole "why can't I just be a confident woman!" stuff came out to play. It's weird that it's still there even though I've identified as non-binary for 6 months properly now. I guess I wish that I could be feeling good enough in myself that I knew I was making the decision for the *right* reasons. Depression/anxiety and confidence don't really go hand in hand though.

Sorry for the excessive wordage!

Nice to see another Jammiedodger fan :). Wish I only had the courage to see him at Pride in London  :P. Yeah working out is always on my to do list but alas I just can't get into.  Tried going to the gym a few times but it's not for me. Hopefully after my top surgery I may feel confident enough and have more self esteem to get me to exercise. Not having to wear a binder would be an added plus. As for eating more protein it sort of helps. I've found on T I crave meat more than I did before. So as long as I get my fix I'm left more or less satisfied. Annoyingly though almost immediately after I started T I found myself getting hungry just 2 or 3 hours after eating a meal. Snacking on fruit and nuts helps a lot and stops me from the most part being tempted by junk food.

I think keeping a dysphoria diary is a great idea :). And I think it'll be really helpful for you to see when you're affected by dysphoria, what caused it and how frequently. You'll probably be surprised by how much it does affect you're day to day life without you really realising it.

Good luck with your psychiatrist appointment! :). Might be a good idea to write down what you want to say beforehand to make sure you're not leaving anything out.

Sorry for the excessive wordage too!

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on July 03, 2017, 10:56:02 AM
Being in a state of continually questioning your gender isn't very good for confidence either. I'm not sure T causes confidence, seeing how I am currently producing T, and still go through periods of not being confident. I am totally confident I am not cis-gender at least. I'd say being really confident in some areas of your life tends to spread it to all areas of your life. I was really confident for a period of time when I was in denial, haven't quite been that since. Gender is such a large part of who you are in this world, for whatever reason.

I currently like transfeminine as my label, as it leaves it open as to whether I'm binary or non-binary. I don't really like to think of this question, as after years of thinking about it, I don't have an answer. I don't think I want everything a binary MtF transition entails, thankfully in 2017, I don't have to.

I'm not against other people being on HRT, if it helps them. Maybe it can help you. You unfortunately can't pick and choose it's effects though it seems like you want most of them.

I'm glad you've found a label that seems to fit for you and allows enough freedom within it. I'm currently leaning towards transmasculine, but feeling the odd pining for some feminine version of myself that never really was. Trying to unpick that one. I realise that my confidence issues are probably largely due to my inner confusion...it's probably going to be the hardest thing to change.

Quote from: Elis on July 04, 2017, 04:23:25 AM
Nice to see another Jammiedodger fan :). Wish I only had the courage to see him at Pride in London  :P. Yeah working out is always on my to do list but alas I just can't get into.  Tried going to the gym a few times but it's not for me. Hopefully after my top surgery I may feel confident enough and have more self esteem to get me to exercise. Not having to wear a binder would be an added plus. As for eating more protein it sort of helps. I've found on T I crave meat more than I did before. So as long as I get my fix I'm left more or less satisfied. Annoyingly though almost immediately after I started T I found myself getting hungry just 2 or 3 hours after eating a meal. Snacking on fruit and nuts helps a lot and stops me from the most part being tempted by junk food.

I think keeping a dysphoria diary is a great idea :). And I think it'll be really helpful for you to see when you're affected by dysphoria, what caused it and how frequently. You'll probably be surprised by how much it does affect you're day to day life without you really realising it.

Good luck with your psychiatrist appointment! :). Might be a good idea to write down what you want to say beforehand to make sure you're not leaving anything out.

Sorry for the excessive wordage too!

Yeah, he seems a cool guy. Did you go to Pride then? I went many years ago as part of the asexual bloc of World Pride in London and that was fun. I keep meaning to go to my local LGBT centre as well, for their non binary meet, but then wimping out...

I'll keep the protein thing in mind - I've been trying to do that lately anyway, in the hope of gaining a bit of mass, and to curb my sugar cravings. I seem to get hungry every 2 or 3 hours anyway so that's not a massive change. Don't think I could take an increase in that though! I'd be broke with all the food I'd need to buy! Not to mention the inevitable new clothes :P

I've started my diary today (made a few notes about yesterday, which had its moments) so it'll be good to look back in a week's time and see. Thanks for the moral support! I think I probably should write things down cause I'm so forgetful. I even mixed the date up, it's actually on Friday so I have a few days to get my thoughts together.

Quote from: mischief_brew on July 05, 2017, 05:11:07 AM

Yeah, he seems a cool guy. Did you go to Pride then? I went many years ago as part of the asexual bloc of World Pride in London and that was fun. I keep meaning to go to my local LGBT centre as well, for their non binary meet, but then wimping out...

I'll keep the protein thing in mind - I've been trying to do that lately anyway, in the hope of gaining a bit of mass, and to curb my sugar cravings. I seem to get hungry every 2 or 3 hours anyway so that's not a massive change. Don't think I could take an increase in that though! I'd be broke with all the food I'd need to buy! Not to mention the inevitable new clothes :P

I've started my diary today (made a few notes about yesterday, which had its moments) so it'll be good to look back in a week's time and see. Thanks for the moral support! I think I probably should write things down cause I'm so forgetful. I even mixed the date up, it's actually on Friday so I have a few days to get my thoughts together.

London Pride is this weekend but decided not to go; again. It seems so gay central which puts me off. The asexual bloc sounds cool though. I'm going to Trans Pride in Brighton though for the whole weekend; as well as taking part as a volunteer; which I'm looking forward too :). I'm also getting a trans pride tattoo in Brighton a few days before; had hoped to get it during pride but the tattoo artist is on holiday then :P

I used to be the same way about going to social groups. Therapy for social anxiety helped a lot; which taught me coping mechanisms as well as the fact I'd dislike the feeling of regret going a lot more than the feeling of becoming anxious going.

Annoyingly I had a nb group social in London that I couldn't go to just because I didn't feel in the mood to socialise and can't go to the next meet up due to work :P. Life just gets in the way sometimes.

Sorry for going on a tangent a bit.

Well done on starting the diary :)

Quote from: Elis on July 06, 2017, 05:37:25 AM
London Pride is this weekend but decided not to go; again. It seems so gay central which puts me off. The asexual bloc sounds cool though. I'm going to Trans Pride in Brighton though for the whole weekend; as well as taking part as a volunteer; which I'm looking forward too :). I'm also getting a trans pride tattoo in Brighton a few days before; had hoped to get it during pride but the tattoo artist is on holiday then :P

I used to be the same way about going to social groups. Therapy for social anxiety helped a lot; which taught me coping mechanisms as well as the fact I'd dislike the feeling of regret going a lot more than the feeling of becoming anxious going.

Annoyingly I had a nb group social in London that I couldn't go to just because I didn't feel in the mood to socialise and can't go to the next meet up due to work :P. Life just gets in the way sometimes.

Sorry for going on a tangent a bit.

Well done on starting the diary :)

Oh, I hope you have fun in Brighton. Sounds like fun! Also, yay for pride tattoos :)

I'd like to get some better therapy for my anxiety but they're only offering me DBT at the moment. It's frustrating.

One thing I was meaning to ask is if you ever have experienced depersonalisation/derealisation because of dysphoria? It's a symptom I've always put down to general anxiety stuff but now I'm not sure if it's related. I feel like I have no sense of self right now and I can't work out why...I feel too disconnected from my myself to even know what I feel about anything anymore. :( It feels like a protective mechanism in a way...

Just want to say that I kind of completely relate to OP. My dysphoria gradually got worse and worse and eventually a very good friend of mine bought me a binder for my birthday last month, which has REALLY been providing a lot of comfort. I'd already been having doubts for a while longer though, and I think much longer than I realised, but I think I sort of pushed it to the back of my mind because I'm still in the closet and I'm also very anxious and scared to be truly out.

Generally though, on really bad dysphoric days, I find that telling myself I'm a guy actually really helps, but from day-to-day I'm just not too sure if I'm fully binary. I've been thinking about IDing as demiguy or transmasculine, but again, I'm mostly just confused and trying to figure everything out. I do like CERTAIN aspects of femininity, but only to a degree and only occasionally strongly, if that makes sense at all.

I too struggle with having to present female, and I strongly dislike being referred to as female etc, I hate hearing my birthname more than anything (and thankfully friends use a more neutral nickname and have for years), and I have been thinking about talking to someone and explore possible transition options, but likewise, I'm not sure if it's what I'm looking for or if it has any true purpose.

I also honestly believe that this is mostly due to not truly identifying as either but being happier NOT being seen as what I was born as - in which case some form of light transitioning might be preferable for me.

Anyway, I hope you (and anyone else struggling with this) figure it out and find more comfort. I'm hoping the same for myself :P

Quote from: Elis on July 06, 2017, 05:37:25 AM
I used to be the same way about going to social groups. Therapy for social anxiety helped a lot; which taught me coping mechanisms as well as the fact I'd dislike the feeling of regret going a lot more than the feeling of becoming anxious going.

Annoyingly I had a nb group social in London that I couldn't go to just because I didn't feel in the mood to socialise and can't go to the next meet up due to work :P. Life just gets in the way sometimes.

I wish I had found this place last year.  I was on the road for a spurt last Summer between our client and training on my company's system.  I was missing all my groups I usually go to at home.  I was in London for two weeks during this period and there was this point where I just really missed talking with people in my community.  The best I could find was one LGBT bar that was really just a gay bar and had a drag performer that night.  The experience felt pretty empty.  I'd have loved to hook up with a NB or Trans support group. 

Quote from: mischief_brew on July 11, 2017, 04:59:18 AM
Oh, I hope you have fun in Brighton. Sounds like fun! Also, yay for pride tattoos :)

I'd like to get some better therapy for my anxiety but they're only offering me DBT at the moment. It's frustrating.

One thing I was meaning to ask is if you ever have experienced depersonalisation/derealisation because of dysphoria? It's a symptom I've always put down to general anxiety stuff but now I'm not sure if it's related. I feel like I have no sense of self right now and I can't work out why...I feel too disconnected from my myself to even know what I feel about anything anymore. :( It feels like a protective mechanism in a way...

Sorry for the late reply :P.  My feelings of depersonalisation were definitely a lot worse pre T. Now almost 2 years in I'm starting to feel like my body is actually mine and I'm connected to it. And starting to sort if care to look after it. Before my body was female and it didn't feel like mine. It felt alien to me in a way; which got worse with each monthly shark week. I felt like I was floating through life rather than actually part of it.

I still have random bouts of depression now and again which triggers me to feel depersonalisation/derealisation.  But it's not a constant non stop feeling anymore. Which is a huge relief.

wow its really easy to forget there are people who have the same identity issues as me. most of the time i feel like im the only one who has these feelings. i dont have much advice for you bc im in the same spot but i got emotional reading this bc i actually found someone like me and its incredible

Sorry I let this post go a bit... Thanks for the replies everyone.

Damnedheart - I'm sorry it feels like you're on your own with this. I'm feeling pretty isolated with it all to be honest, but I know there are groups to reach out to if I can get up the confidence, it's just hard. I hope you can find people to support you and make you feel less alone... I find coming here somewhat of a sanctuary at the moment, even if I don't post much.

Elis - I'm glad your dyphoria has eased a bit with T. I'm still on the fence about making any definite decisions for now, but I have plenty of time to think whilst waiting to be referred to the Gender Clinic in London. I don't think my depression will ever truly go away but this stuff is definitely feeding it right now :(

LindseyP - There seems to be quite a lack of trans/non binary groups or venues in comparison to regular gay clubs and nights. I hope that it's going to improve in the future seeing as a lot more people are coming out as non binary now, or at least it seems so...

Oblivion Light - I hope you manage to figure things out for yourself too. I'm trying to be patient with myself because I don't think pressuring myself to make a decision one way or another is helping. I'm hoping things will get clearer eventually! Best of luck to you :)

The key here seems to be expression vs identity. They're not the same. You can have any identity you like and changing your expression won't interfere. But it's good to be clear about your identity.

I run into this a lot, because the LGBT groups at colleges I work with have in the span of 10 years essentially gone from LGB meetups to about 80-90% non-binary people, some of whom are to me appallingly anarchistic in their approach (ex. "gender doesn't exist") and frankly toxic about pronoun policing etc.

Expression is free. There's no need for a total revision of your identity, pronouns, and all that if you just prefer some modes of expression over others. Take a look at Tilda Swinton, Roan Louch, Ellen DeGeneres, Grace Jones, or Saskia DeBrauw. They all really blur the gender line at times but still don't espouse a trans or non-binary identity. People are more or less used to and accepting of this.

The way I see it is, if you would seem gender-normative to people like this, how well do your expressions really reflect your innate identity? Is the situation warranting a new label, or is a non-binary identity more a philosophical statement on existence vs. essence?

The thing is, how one is seen by society cannot be demanded. If that's desired, ostensibly to match a deeply-held sense of identity, then taking the non-binary route sounds to me like a long, hard battle that you have to really weigh the pros and cons of taking on. There are a lot of 20th and 21st century trans-folk who fought very hard, using medical research and mental health studies conducted at the highest levels of academia, to justify their need for the freedom to fully transition and be legally accepted for who they are, and in most places that battle is still red-hot - and that's just within the binary!

A huge part in all of this is that on one hand you have our society's battle for the evolution of gender roles past sexist social frameworks, and on the other you have those taking the Jacques Derrida approach. If it's a matter of really disliking birth name, secondary sex characteristics, and that sort of thing, that sounds like a good enough reason to look at transition options, especially when for men the next wave of alpha-male is more like 'sweet, sophisticated gentleman'. But I'm biased  ;D

Quote from: OU812 on August 24, 2017, 11:06:47 AM
The key here seems to be expression vs identity. They're not the same. You can have any identity you like and changing your expression won't interfere. But it's good to be clear about your identity.

I run into this a lot, because the LGBT groups at colleges I work with have in the span of 10 years essentially gone from LGB meetups to about 80-90% non-binary people, some of whom are to me appallingly anarchistic in their approach (ex. "gender doesn't exist") and frankly toxic about pronoun policing etc.

Expression is free. There's no need for a total revision of your identity, pronouns, and all that if you just prefer some modes of expression over others. Take a look at Tilda Swinton, Roan Louch, Ellen DeGeneres, Grace Jones, or Saskia DeBrauw. They all really blur the gender line at times but still don't espouse a trans or non-binary identity. People are more or less used to and accepting of this.

The way I see it is, if you would seem gender-normative to people like this, how well do your expressions really reflect your innate identity? Is the situation warranting a new label, or is a non-binary identity more a philosophical statement on existence vs. essence?

The thing is, how one is seen by society cannot be demanded. If that's desired, ostensibly to match a deeply-held sense of identity, then taking the non-binary route sounds to me like a long, hard battle that you have to really weigh the pros and cons of taking on. There are a lot of 20th and 21st century trans-folk who fought very hard, using medical research and mental health studies conducted at the highest levels of academia, to justify their need for the freedom to fully transition and be legally accepted for who they are, and in most places that battle is still red-hot - and that's just within the binary!

A huge part in all of this is that on one hand you have our society's battle for the evolution of gender roles past sexist social frameworks, and on the other you have those taking the Jacques Derrida approach. If it's a matter of really disliking birth name, secondary sex characteristics, and that sort of thing, that sounds like a good enough reason to look at transition options, especially when for men the next wave of alpha-male is more like 'sweet, sophisticated gentleman'. But I'm biased  ;D

I am going to try to respond to this as carefully as I can.  I get the spirit of where you are coming from, but there are some items in here that are highly problematic for someone who sounds like they are in a position to provide meaningful support for Non-Binary youth.  You come across like you are questioning the value of how they view their identities.  I am not sure how you can hold these views and function as effectively as you otherwise could.  People have a way of picking up on these things and creating space where it exists. 

Gender Identity is how people feel.  When you say " how well do your expressions really reflect your innate identity?", you seem to tie the "honesty" of how they say they identify to how they choose to express it.  As you say, Gender Identity and Gender Expression are two different things.  People get to choose how they want to express their identity.  That is somewhat of a choice.  Gender Identity, however, is not.  There is zero relationship between GI and GE. 

A Non-Binary person has no responsibility or implied requirement to express in a particular manner.  Does it make it harder for people that have been conditioned over a lifetime to accept the false premise that gender is binary?  Heck yes.  Should people expect Non-Binary people to act more predictably binary because it is more convenient to the way they have been raised to see the world?  Heck no. 

There is an awful lot of information out there on Gender Identity in general, and Non-Binary identities in specific.  I have a hard time buying into it, but I know there are even a number of people that identify as Non-Binary and don't identify as Trans.  Just because I don't "get it", it doesn't invalidate the identity.

I'm an admin in a Non-Binary support group on Facebook.  Someone posted the article below the other day and has been well received.  I have posted the link below.   It may give you a different perspective on Non-Binary identities.  There is a really good 30 minute program that pops up with it if you have time to watch.

I'm also 50+.  These are not "Tumbler Genders" as I have seen some disparage (not on these Susan's Place pages).  These are real people trying to figure out how to accept their own identities and find their place in the world.  And a lot of times it comes down to imposed societal gender norms, and not these kids.  The only difference between them and me is that they are much better setting aside societal norms as they navigate the world.  I'm a little too indoctrinated to the gender binary and have a more difficult time understanding and describing me because of it. 

If people had taken your comment "how one is seen by society cannot be demanded" to heart, we'd still be waiting for the Civil Rights movement to start.  I don't say this to cast any shade your way, just to tie it into something people have an easier time picturing. 

My apologies in advance if I have taken anything you have said out of context or misinterpreted your words.  As you are working with a lot of younger folk, I would hope that you would take some time to reexamine some of your premises on the subject.  If you have any specific situations you are encountering, I am happy to talk more offline as well.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/non-binary-transgender-you-havent-heard-of/