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I don't understand why guys love machines so much. My dad and brother both love machines. Any machines. The appliances my dad gets for our house are always the  most complicated ones with the most features. I made the mistake of letting him drag me with him to get a new dishwasher. OMG! He took like forever to pick one. He looked at like all of them and compared features and blah blah. Every time I tried to sneak away to look at something interesting he would tell me not to go anywhere cause we were leaving as soon as he bought one. So after like a year of looking at stupid dishwashers he picked one. Its got all kinds of features and controls and after it got installed he spent like forever telling me how to use it and what it could do. I wanted to put my hand in the garbage disposal just to end the boredom! After all that my mom and I are the only ones who use it and the only setting we ever use is the wash button. He's like that with any appliance. And he has this old wreck of a car that he and my brother are restoring. They go crazy over it. When my dads friends are over they all stand around it and talk about it. My dad has a new jeep. I can't figure why he would spend so much time and money on something he needs to just throw away. He says once its restored it will look like new. So what? It will still be a old car. Thats like getting a bunch of ugly ass clothes from the 80s and restoring them. They might look new but they still are way out of style. Plus even if it looks new it won't have GPS, or be phone and device compatible. Who would want it when they could have a new car?

Can anyone explain why guys like cars and machines so much? I really don't get it.
Julia

Guy stuff

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That's a question that goes both ways.  I have a friend who, when she buys something, considers appearance more important than function.  A few years ago, she bought a computer because it was red.  As a result, she often gets frustrated when things don't work as well as they could.  Well, that's often what happens when you put form over function.

Also, I watched a show on TV (Nova on PBS?) a while ago that compared male and female differences.  One of those differences is men have better spatial perception than women.  They also did an experiement with one of the apes (forgot which one).  They placed human toys, such as dolls and cars with the young and observed what happened.  The females preferred the dolls, but the males went with the cars.  It might be expected that the females were imitating their mothers, when they picked the dolls, but there was no similar influence for the males to pick the cars.  They just did.  This implies that such preferences are innate in primates, including us.

Now now, let's not be sexist and make generalizations.  :)

I like mechanical things and technology. I own a big red toolbox with wheels, change the oil and spark plugs in my 34 year old car and love motorcycles and motorsports. In my early 30's I even raced motorcycles for several years and it was at the racetrack that I met my husband.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg223%2FEKron%2FOther%2520Forums%2FOld%2520Racing%2520Pic_zpsq9advnlf.png&hash=26d2908e2f49b77915c4fbc59e3f84583c19fb7e)

I only do airbrush art and graphics these days but when I was younger, I painted several cars too.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg223%2FEKron%2FOther%2520Forums%2FVW%2520Painting_zpsxwsqf0bq.png&hash=8b2d6ed15eaa21ca08a26bc945c506ed3e388886)

I consider myself somewhat of a gearhead and love that I know as much as guys do about some things. Dumb blonde I am not. Guys that can't even change a light bulb or find me intimidating hold no interest for me. Other guys find chicks that know their stuff very attractive.

I have no hang ups about doing guy stuff or having a tomboy side unless I have to break a nail doing it. It does nothing to detract from my womanhood or femininity and I feel it makes me a well-rounded person with a broad set of skills of which I am quite proud.

I only played with cars as a kid. My granny wanted to buy me a doll house. Mom said "don't". She did anyway i put all my cars in the house and was very happy about my garage. :D Granny was not so happy. Haha

I'm the one using the tool box at home. I fix broken stuff and put shelves on the wall and stuff.

About chosing a car. I go for function before looks. My husband wants all the extra stuff in the car. I want a car. It has to be reliable and take me from a to b. I don't need all that extra equipment that makes it fancy and much much more expensive. My husband complaints every single time we're in the car. "We don't have this, we don't have that. "

Also, I'm the driver here. I always drive. My husband don't like driving.

I fix the car, change tyres, wash it and change lamps and stuff.

Stereotypical family. My husband does not know how to change a lamp. But he has no interest in that. He tells me it's broken.

I'm an engineer,  and if someone asked me to label myself that's what I'd say,  before man/woman,  gay/straight. I studied engineering,  work in IT,  love fast cars,  computers,  tools and anything mechanical,  and yes I'm a girl 😀. X

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I think it also depends on other things, like left/right brain dominance and preferred learning styles. I'm into how things work, always have been before I have memories. I'm also a tactile learner first and visual second. Having someone tell me what to do doesn't work for me. If I can touch it and see it, it makes sense.


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Quote from: MeTonie on June 30, 2017, 01:31:59 PM
I only played with cars as a kid. My granny wanted to buy me a doll house. Mom said "don't". She did anyway i put all my cars in the house and was very happy about my garage. :D Granny was not so happy. Haha

I'm the one using the tool box at home. I fix broken stuff and put shelves on the wall and stuff.

About chosing a car. I go for function before looks. My husband wants all the extra stuff in the car. I want a car. It has to be reliable and take me from a to b. I don't need all that extra equipment that makes it fancy and much much more expensive. My husband complaints every single time we're in the car. "We don't have this, we don't have that. "

Also, I'm the driver here. I always drive. My husband don't like driving.

I fix the car, change tyres, wash it and change lamps and stuff.

Stereotypical family. My husband does not know how to change a lamp. But he has no interest in that. He tells me it's broken.

I'm much the same as you, but I like value and performance in functional terms too. I like things that are integrated well and do everything well. Reliability is just one dimension, there are several.


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Quote from: Gertrude on June 30, 2017, 04:17:20 PM
I think it also depends on other things, like left/right brain dominance and preferred learning styles. I'm into how things work, always have been before I have memories. I'm also a tactile learner first and visual second. Having someone tell me what to do doesn't work for me. If I can touch it and see it, it makes sense.


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I don't care about how anything works as long as it works. I also like stuff that is pretty and looks cute. Who cares if something will last a long time if it's ugly? That just like even longer you have to look at the ugly thing. I totally got a lecture about that from my dad. We were looking at phones and I had like 3 of them picked out. My dad asked me exactly why I chose those 3 . I told him because they were cute and I liked the colors. He told me you don't buy things because they are cute. You buy them because they work well, are a good buy, etc. I kind of get what he's saying but at the same time I didn't want a ugly phone that people would totally rag on.
Julia

Not just guys...

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,221841.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,198455.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,197133.0.html

Hugs, Devlyn

Several comments:

1.  Not all men like machines.  Not all girls don't.  I think it's less of a difference than you suppose.

2.  To the extent that men tend to like machines more than the women in their families, I would look first to the ways in which boys and girls were socialized as children.  If boys were constantly told how pretty they are, and girls told that they were very brave, boys might grow up more inclined to care about their bodies and/or beauty and girls might be more inclined to grow up valuing courage.  Not, of course, that this doesn't happen in some families, but you have to admit, America has a fetishistic devotion to pink/blue.  If you buy a kid a toy truck then get down on the floor with them and play, chances are your kid is going to like trucks.

3.  People tend to put a lot of effort into the responsibilities assigned to them.  Is it possible that the men in your family obsess about purchasing the right machine because they perceive that their competence is somewhat measured by the quality of the machines they purchase?

Quote from: Lisa_K on June 30, 2017, 01:19:21 PM
Now now, let's not be sexist and make generalizations.  :)

I like mechanical things and technology. I own a big red toolbox with wheels, change the oil and spark plugs in my 34 year old car and love motorcycles and motorsports. In my early 30's I even raced motorcycles for several years and it was at the racetrack that I met my husband.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg223%2FEKron%2FOther%2520Forums%2FOld%2520Racing%2520Pic_zpsq9advnlf.png&hash=26d2908e2f49b77915c4fbc59e3f84583c19fb7e)

I only do airbrush art and graphics these days but when I was younger, I painted several cars too.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg223%2FEKron%2FOther%2520Forums%2FVW%2520Painting_zpsxwsqf0bq.png&hash=8b2d6ed15eaa21ca08a26bc945c506ed3e388886)

I consider myself somewhat of a gearhead and love that I know as much as guys do about some things. Dumb blonde I am not. Guys that can't even change a light bulb or find me intimidating hold no interest for me. Other guys find chicks that know their stuff very attractive.

I have no hang ups about doing guy stuff or having a tomboy side unless I have to break a nail doing it. It does nothing to detract from my womanhood or femininity and I feel it makes me a well-rounded person with a broad set of skills of which I am quite proud.

I think its totally cool you like cars and know how to fix them. I totally know nothing about cars or how they work. I can put in gas and thats it. I've been in the garage when my dad or brother is messing with a car and they are talking about doing this or that to it. Then when I look at the motor with it's millions of pieces it's like standing over someone whose been opened surgically and trying to figure out how to do surgery on them. I think it's great that there are women who know how to repair cars. I just could never be one if them.

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 30, 2017, 04:38:39 PM
I don't care about how anything works as long as it works. I also like stuff that is pretty and looks cute. Who cares if something will last a long time if it's ugly? That just like even longer you have to look at the ugly thing. I totally got a lecture about that from my dad. We were looking at phones and I had like 3 of them picked out. My dad asked me exactly why I chose those 3 . I told him because they were cute and I liked the colors. He told me you don't buy things because they are cute. You buy them because they work well, are a good buy, etc. I kind of get what he's saying but at the same time I didn't want a ugly phone that people would totally rag on.
Julia

Like I said, it's how you're built and we're all built a little different. I am slightly left brained, tactile learner that can switch hit in baseball and I also play the drums. After a while we see patterns in behaviors and aptitudes. One isn't better than the other by itself, only in application. You wouldn't want me painting portraits for a living, and maybe you wouldn't be the chief engineer on the rocket that will take us to Mars. That's ok. Instead of focusing on the differences and how it divides, just accept people the way they are.

As a young boy, I was very girly and shied away from anything I thought was masculine. It was only after I transitioned at 18 and gained confidence in myself and my identity that I felt more comfortable expressing that side of my personality and interests. I'm still "girly" and feminine in the traditional way that people think of. I have long hair, nails, wear make-up and am mostly quiet and demure but when the situation calls for it, don't mind getting my hands dirty or doing what needs to be done. Part of this is from being raised to be fiercely independent by a mother that grew up on a farm and knew how to use a hammer and do stuff. Part of it also is from being married to a professional mechanic for 12 years that taught me a lot.

This week for example. My old car with 232,650 miles was due for emissions inspection. To help make sure it passed, I changed the oil, spark plugs and air filter. I can't say that I enjoyed doing this but I did like not having to depend on or pay someone else to do it. Self sufficiency matters a lot to me and knowing that I don't need a man to do these kinds of things makes me feel strong.

Well machines are fascinating and humans are attracted to fascinating things.  But the patriarchal culture steers boys away from feminine things and girls away from masculine things.  Traditionally this has been done to control women and make them more dependent upon men.

When women are discouraged from pursuing the traditional paths to success in life for working class kids, i.e., math, science, engineering, the trades, the military, etc. One is forced to stop and ask.

What the heck is going on here?

Quote from: rmaddy on June 30, 2017, 04:47:31 PM
Several comments:

1.  Not all men like machines.  Not all girls don't.  I think it's less of a difference than you suppose.

2.  To the extent that men tend to like machines more than the women in their families, I would look first to the ways in which boys and girls were socialized as children.  If boys were constantly told how pretty they are, and girls told that they were very brave, boys might grow up more inclined to care about their bodies and/or beauty and girls might be more inclined to grow up valuing courage.  Not, of course, that this doesn't happen in some families, but you have to admit, America has a fetishistic devotion to pink/blue.  If you buy a kid a toy truck then get down on the floor with them and play, chances are your kid is going to like trucks.

3.  People tend to put a lot of effort into the responsibilities assigned to them.  Is it possible that the men in your family obsess about purchasing the right machine because they perceive that their competence is somewhat measured by the quality of the machines they purchase?

In that show I watched, they said some things are learned, but others innate.  So, it's a mix of nature vs nurture.  There have also been some cases of people have gender surgery as babies, for various medical reasons.  They tend to behave as though they were their original sex, not how they were raised.  One case that comes to mind was someone in Winnipeg, who was born male, but due to a botched circumcision was made into a girl.  She always felt she was in the wrong body and later on had GCS to become male again.  He eventually committed suicide.

I also believe it is how our brain is wired. Some people are good at some things others at other things. We are all needed to complete the cycle.

When I was a kid I used to pick down my radio into atoms and build it back together again. Over and over.

When I was 9 my dad became one of the first computer technicians in my city. He bought a computer in 1986. I was amazed and really really wanted one myself. I got my first computer in 1987. Dad came with a huge bag to me. It was filled with pieces to make a computer. He emptied the bag on my floor and said, " If you want one, you build one." I was 10 years old. I put it together and had a working PC in a week. He did not help me at all.

Another thing, I wanted a bike. We could not afford one. So I went around in the forest and searched in the junk for pieces to a bike. I finally had built my own bike when I was 9. It was super cool. I used to ride it everywhere and jump over rocks and curbs.

Some people have these thengs coming natural. Other people have other strong traits. Both types of people are needed. As said, why not make something functional beautiful to watch? Esthetics are important but so is function. We don't need to add more crap on earth because simply beautiful stuff don't last as long and end up in the junk yard. We don't have much space left for junk.

The male brain and female brain are structured differently with different sized neuron features and different amounts of grey/white matter. Although they don't understand the precise reasons and origin of it, men have a tendency toward spatial awareness and wanting to break something down into components to figure out how they work. They also have a tendency to be competitive which can drive someone to "master" a subject or an object to a level beyond basic recreation. If they didn't, there are a lot of inventions we'd be without.

My male mode is very mechanical, likes to invent things to solve problems. My female mode is more artistic, into wildlife photography, art.

Before I realized I was gender fluid, or bigender, I was puzzled by my obsession with old cars, tools, machines. It didn't make sense because I was usually out hiking or riding horses instead of using machines.

Quote from: AnneK on June 30, 2017, 08:59:52 PM
In that show I watched, they said some things are learned, but others innate.  So, it's a mix of nature vs nurture.  There have also been some cases of people have gender surgery as babies, for various medical reasons.  They tend to behave as though they were their original sex, not how they were raised.  One case that comes to mind was someone in Winnipeg, who was born male, but due to a botched circumcision was made into a girl.  She always felt she was in the wrong body and later on had GCS to become male again.  He eventually committed suicide.

Yes, but this has nothing whatsoever to say about a man (or woman) who enjoys a well-built machine.

Quote from: rmaddy on July 01, 2017, 11:30:39 AM
Yes, but this has nothing whatsoever to say about a man (or woman) who enjoys a well-built machine.

What is says is somethings are innate and others learned.  A far greater proportion of men enjoy working on cars than women.  That doesn't mean women can't, just they're less likely to.

My daughter drag races a VW beetle and knows how to fix it,but then she got that from me. I just like mechanical stuff, older the better no plastic s**t . Guess that's why I like hot rods and building drag cars . Got nothing to do with gender as I know males that cant change a light bulb and ladies that can build a house or car

Quote from: AnneK on July 01, 2017, 11:49:01 AM
What is says is somethings are innate and others learned.  A far greater proportion of men enjoy working on cars than women.  That doesn't mean women can't, just they're less likely to.

I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that this is innate.  If girls were socialized early and often to enjoy play with machines to the same extent boys were, I suspect the outcome would be the same.

Quote from: rmaddy on July 01, 2017, 08:37:07 PM
I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that this is innate.  If girls were socialized early and often to enjoy play with machines to the same extent boys were, I suspect the outcome would be the same.

I agree. I have a cisgender friend and when she was a girl her dad, a machinist, took her to work with him at his shop.  He had her sweep floors and stuff like that but never taught here anything about machining because he felt it was men's work.   She says now she wishes that he did.

I know the generalization.  But my female brain loves machines.  And I am not alone.  It seems to me that at about 50% of trans women have or had careers in IT.

I am not sure what the attraction is for cis males.  But for me, it was that machines don't judge.  I may not have been good enough to fit into the cool male cliques, but I could make myself good enough to excell at running a machine.  My performance was objective: no one could argue that I wasn't good enough when it was clear that I could get the machine to do exactly what I or the client wanted.

All my life, I've been into machines.  I restored a 1938 Packard; I had a career in computers; I flew jet aircraft; I ran a recording studio; now my hobby is astrophotography. 

Quote from: KathyLauren on July 03, 2017, 06:53:43 PM
I know the generalization.  But my female brain loves machines.  And I am not alone.  It seems to me that at about 50% of trans women have or had careers in IT.

I am not sure what the attraction is for cis males.  But for me, it was that machines don't judge.  I may not have been good enough to fit into the cool male cliques, but I could make myself good enough to excell at running a machine.  My performance was objective: no one could argue that I wasn't good enough when it was clear that I could get the machine to do exactly what I or the client wanted.

All my life, I've been into machines.  I restored a 1938 Packard; I had a career in computers; I flew jet aircraft; I ran a recording studio; now my hobby is astrophotography.

What's a Packard?

Quote from: Julia1996 on July 03, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
What's a Packard?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftopclassiccarsforsale.com%2Fuploads%2Fphotoalbum%2F1938-packard-super-8-touring-sedan-1.jpg&hash=ff00347c6ccf1ca828156f787f12aa236c69c806)

Unless I miss my guess, that's a inline 12 cylinder engine. Packard was one of the quality car manufactures and the were also known for aircraft engine production. The Packard version of the Merlin engine powered many aircraft in WW II.

Quote from: Dena on July 03, 2017, 11:08:12 PM
Unless I miss my guess, that's a inline 12 cylinder engine.

Inline 12??  Yikes, I hope not.  They had a V-12 and an inline 8.  Mine (like the one in the picture, which isn't mine) was the 8.

Quote from: rmaddy on July 01, 2017, 08:37:07 PM
I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that this is innate.  If girls were socialized early and often to enjoy play with machines to the same extent boys were, I suspect the outcome would be the same.

It's a nice idea but in Western society at least there has been 1-3 generations of girls who've been socialized to believe they can and should be able to do the same things that men like to do, and nobody is stopping them from going and building kit cars if they want to. From what I see women are given a positive spotlight right now if they want to do these sort of things, they're not shamed but praised for it if the media happens to latch onto a case... and yet most of them still are not that interested. It could be that most are just not that into it. Women have minds of their own and if they want to do something they know they can here; I doubt they are going to be put off something they feel passionately about... so long as they are feeling passionately about it. Or that they have to be told they like/should like something?

The idea we are all "blank slates" without innate propensities for certain things does seem rather a strange view to have when you come up against the transsexual phenomenon. Just reading these boards and you see a lot of propensities for things associated with one's identified gender.

In societies where males and females have a great deal of freedom to choose what they want to do... like say Sweden compared to Iran, apparently you see less crossover in terms of gender in the sort of jobs people want to go into in a place like Sweden, with women choosing to go into traditionally male fields even less than they might in a place like Iran. Which I suppose goes to show, it's not being forced on them or socialized into them. They are freely choosing - on average - not to bother with those things. 

There's a female "genius" in my family who went off to do science - their parents had held them back as a kid in the 60s in favor of the oldest son being sent to university, but with today's attitudes she knew she could go pursue that passion, get a degree and go do what she wanted to do, there was nothing holding her back besides putting the work in. Even if one's parents are sexist, once you leave their environment, I think all Western women are aware they can do pretty much whatever they want now with their independence.  What exactly is holding them back? Girls outperform boys at school on average, so it's not that they aren't smart enough to be able to see what they want or what they enjoy.

I don't think women are being locked out of a fascination with machines at all by socialization.

Quote from: Dena on July 03, 2017, 11:08:12 PM
Unless I miss my guess, that's a inline 12 cylinder engine. Packard was one of the quality car manufactures and the were also known for aircraft engine production. The Packard version of the Merlin engine powered many aircraft in WW II.

They also used it in tanks. I could have gotten one for free 30plus years ago.


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Quote from: KathyLauren on July 04, 2017, 05:23:34 AM
Inline 12??  Yikes, I hope not.  They had a V-12 and an inline 8.  Mine (like the one in the picture, which isn't mine) was the 8.

Your right. They made a inline 12 as a test engine but never put it into production. A guy I knew from work had a in line 8 in his younger days and as he wasn't ever wealthy. I suspect it was a car he picked up second hand.

An inline 12 would twist itself apart.  Even my inline 8 had a torsion crack in the block.  That's why all 8s these days, and even most 6s are in V configurations.

Quote from: KathyLauren on July 04, 2017, 01:38:56 PM
An inline 12 would twist itself apart.  Even my inline 8 had a torsion crack in the block.  That's why all 8s these days, and even most 6s are in V configurations.

V's are also shorter and make more sense with regards to space. Another problem in the days of carburetors was fuel distribution. It's tough to get equal fuel distribution with inline engines of that size with carbs. I still like v-8s best, how they sound. Before I got married I had a 1983 Camaro that I put a 400 small block in it. I miss that car sometimes.


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Quote from: Viktor on July 04, 2017, 08:26:40 AM
The idea we are all "blank slates" without innate propensities for certain things does seem rather a strange view to have when you come up against the transsexual phenomenon.

I would argue that it is relevant.  What better long-term, longitudinal studies could social scientists devise than a population of women (i.e. transgender women) who were raised and socialized as men, and forced to live as men by the stigma of transphobia?  And lo and behold what do we find?  Women who enjoy, succeed, and thrive in male dominated industries, the military, IT, the trades, mechanics, etc. This would suggest it is the early societal socialization and social pressure that steers women toward stereotypically feminine pursuits and men toward stereotypically masculine pursuits.

Quote from: KathyLauren on July 03, 2017, 06:53:43 PM
...now my hobby is astrophotography.

Mine too! 

Quote from: Viktor on July 04, 2017, 08:26:40 AM
It's a nice idea but in Western society at least there has been 1-3 generations of girls who've been socialized to believe they can and should be able to do the same things that men like to do, and nobody is stopping them from going and building kit cars if they want to. From what I see women are given a positive spotlight right now if they want to do these sort of things, they're not shamed but praised for it if the media happens to latch onto a case... and yet most of them still are not that interested. It could be that most are just not that into it. Women have minds of their own and if they want to do something they know they can here; I doubt they are going to be put off something they feel passionately about... so long as they are feeling passionately about it. Or that they have to be told they like/should like something?

I disagree.  I think we are seeing changes in society as a result in changes to socialization.  What you're looking at is an incomplete transformation.  True, young women are being told that they can do whatever they want now, but not until they've fully mastered being a princess under the near constant references to their beauty, which start even before they are born.  Dismantle that, and you'll have a blended society.

From what I've seen men often get a very narrow obsession with whatever they get interested in, whether its cars, computers, whatever. Women seem to have a more balanced level of interest, so while they might choose the same career as men, they could much more easily choose something else.

The things that really puzzles me though, is why women read those women's magazines? I've never understood it. Can't say I've looked at one since I started HRT though, maybe I should take a look.

Quote from: AnonyMs on July 05, 2017, 01:03:36 PM
The things that really puzzles me though, is why women read those women's magazines? I've never understood it. Can't say I've looked at one since I started HRT though, maybe I should take a look.

Same with some of the TV shows they watch.  There's one in Canada called "The Social", which I had to endure recently (It was on in an office where I was doing some work recently.).  How can any thinking person watch that garbage?

Also, my mother was one of those addicted to soaps, which seemed to be mainly remember when, be with us when and lots of comericals in between.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXK21xB69fw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXK21xB69fw)


Carol Burnett had a few spoofs on soaps.  :D

I guess that, if we were to keep ourselves locked into this dichotomous mentality, I would be both. I go for what looks nice, first, then figure out if it has the specs that I like. If it isn't functional to my liking, it loses its appeal. I like a well-built machine, but I don't obsess over it. I played with dolls and cars when I was a child, so I'm not sure what that would make me. I know lots of women who are rational, who like to make things out of wood, who like bodybuilding, etc., but I doubt that makes them any less feminine. My wife has a very dichotomous view on this, as well. She thinks that if someone doesn't have an experience like hers, or think just like her, that they aren't really female. Sorry, babe; that's not how it works. I like some traditionally masculine things and some traditionally feminine things. Most of the masculine things that I like are from the years of trying to play the part of a male, from which I found that I liked certain things, regardless of whether I was expected to like them.

But, I get why you (the OP) would be scratching your head about it. My dad is exactly the same way. He'd be looking at appliances or hardware and take forever while telling me not go anywhere because he just needed me to give him my opinion about whatever he was looking at. Like, I really don't care, just pick something so we can go. I usually got bored very quickly. I would normally just wander off to the electronics or clothes sections and he'd have to come find me.

The societal gender lines, are thankfully getting blurred.

Chastity

Quote from: rmaddy on July 05, 2017, 12:13:37 PM
I disagree.  I think we are seeing changes in society as a result in changes to socialization.  What you're looking at is an incomplete transformation.  True, young women are being told that they can do whatever they want now, but not until they've fully mastered being a princess under the near constant references to their beauty, which start even before they are born.  Dismantle that, and you'll have a blended society.

In your view women still have no agency to choose for themselves and if we tear down "female beauty" everyone will think the same?

People do have the freedom to choose here, though, isn't that good enough...? Nobody can escape how their parents socialize them in whatever capacity, but when we are old enough, we all can.

Quite honestly I think if you try to meddle with the idea of women being beautiful you're going to come up against a lot of women who want to be beautiful no matter how much you tell them it doesn't matter. And who is anyone to tell individual people what they should and shouldn't find interesting? By all means show kids of both genders all the possibilities they could achieve in a lifetime through a range of interests. But I'm not up for telling people whether they should or shouldn't pursue beauty. Just about everyone thinks about wanting to be beautiful at some point or other, it's human. "Dismantling" the idea doesn't sound like a good path to me as it will lead to banning of imagery of women of a certain weight, or look, etc. (already proposed in London on the buses thanks to the mayor) and it sounds far more totalitarian to me to begin telling people what is "realistic" and "unrealistic" an expectation of them, and to begin actively tearing down or to start shaming people for liking certain beauty standards over others. I would much rather we didn't go down the road of policing ideas about beauty and instead just taught children to think for themselves.

Even then, I do think women on the whole have a tendency - across all cultures, and including the female-minded but still male-bodied - to think about (and to want to think about) being beautiful more than men do. You can see it all over these boards and it makes people happy to feel beautiful... you don't see people here saying they specifically desire to be beautiful because society demands it, or because men want it... but because they want it. Is this some social construct they are obeying like robots, or more likely part and parcel of the enjoyment of human sensuality?

I honestly don't know a single adult woman who is pursuing unrealistic beauty standards or trying to be a "princess" - not saying that doesn't happen at all but I certainly don't see it "all around" me.

My younger sister is a mother of two; wants to be a make-up artist and enjoys making herself up... she had the exact same upbringing as I did - gender neutral, with academic parents who encouraged her to read over watching TV. She was socialized at a young age largely by me, the older sibling, to climb trees, fight, make bows and arrows and raise hell. But once grown up, what happened? She and I couldn't be more different, and she does what she does now because she enjoys it. That's who she is, what she likes and chooses to be like. If someone came along and told her she's doing it because society or upbringing, she would laugh.

What if... there is a biological component to the desire to be beautiful? Men will often try to compete with each other to become successful in a particular field because that tends to make them more desirable as mates. While women don't have to make themselves up to remain desirable as mates, making themselves up undoubtedly appears to make them even more desirable as mates. If this behavior and response is biological in origin - no amount of social engineering is going to get rid of it.

Quote from: Jane Emily on July 04, 2017, 08:48:17 PM
I would argue that it is relevant.  What better long-term, longitudinal studies could social scientists devise than a population of women (i.e. transgender women) who were raised and socialized as men, and forced to live as men by the stigma of transphobia?  And lo and behold what do we find?  Women who enjoy, succeed, and thrive in male dominated industries, the military, IT, the trades, mechanics, etc. This would suggest it is the early societal socialization and social pressure that steers women toward stereotypically feminine pursuits and men toward stereotypically masculine pursuits.

Yes, though you have to take into account the fact that lots of transwomen say they went into these trades not necessarily because they enjoy them. There are people here on the boards talking about going into the military because it's a job and an easily available option, for example, rather than something they are truly passionate for. When socialized as men, how many went into those trades out of practicality but might have gone into stereotypically feminine ones if the choice had been there? Who knows.

Of course I am not saying they don't enjoy these things they do and have done. But the circumstances we find ourselves in in life doesn't always mirror our preferences. Lots of people here talk about wanting to be pregnant, to be a mother, etc. It doesn't seem a stretch to think lots of transwomen would - if they could - choose feminine roles in life, too.   

Quote from: Viktor on July 06, 2017, 11:32:09 AM
In your view women still have no agency to choose for themselves and if we tear down "female beauty" everyone will think the same?

People do have the freedom to choose here, though, isn't that good enough...? Nobody can escape how their parents socialize them in whatever capacity, but when we are old enough, we all can.

Quite honestly I think if you try to meddle with the idea of women being beautiful you're going to come up against a lot of women who want to be beautiful no matter how much you tell them it doesn't matter. And who is anyone to tell individual people what they should and shouldn't find interesting? By all means show kids of both genders all the possibilities they could achieve in a lifetime through a range of interests. But I'm not up for telling people whether they should or shouldn't pursue beauty. Just about everyone thinks about wanting to be beautiful at some point or other, it's human. "Dismantling" the idea doesn't sound like a good path to me as it will lead to banning of imagery of women of a certain weight, or look, etc. (already proposed in London on the buses thanks to the mayor) and it sounds far more totalitarian to me to begin telling people what is "realistic" and "unrealistic" an expectation of them, and to begin actively tearing down or to start shaming people for liking certain beauty standards over others. I would much rather we didn't go down the road of policing ideas about beauty and instead just taught children to think for themselves.

Even then, I do think women on the whole have a tendency - across all cultures, and including the female-minded but still male-bodied - to think about (and to want to think about) being beautiful more than men do. You can see it all over these boards and it makes people happy to feel beautiful... you don't see people here saying they specifically desire to be beautiful because society demands it, or because men want it... but because they want it. Is this some social construct they are obeying like robots, or more likely part and parcel of the enjoyment of human sensuality?

I honestly don't know a single adult woman who is pursuing unrealistic beauty standards or trying to be a "princess" - not saying that doesn't happen at all but I certainly don't see it "all around" me.

My younger sister is a mother of two; wants to be a make-up artist and enjoys making herself up... she had the exact same upbringing as I did - gender neutral, with academic parents who encouraged her to read over watching TV. She was socialized at a young age largely by me, the older sibling, to climb trees, fight, make bows and arrows and raise hell. But once grown up, what happened? She and I couldn't be more different, and she does what she does now because she enjoys it. That's who she is, what she likes and chooses to be like. If someone came along and told her she's doing it because society or upbringing, she would laugh.

What if... there is a biological component to the desire to be beautiful? Men will often try to compete with each other to become successful in a particular field because that tends to make them more desirable as mates. While women don't have to make themselves up to remain desirable as mates, making themselves up undoubtedly appears to make them even more desirable as mates. If this behavior and response is biological in origin - no amount of social engineering is going to get rid of it.

I have 4 daughters aged 12-20. I don't discourage them from anything and yet they are all different and gravitate towards different things. People have their preferences in learning styles and strengths and weaknesses with different subjects and work types. I agree that we should allow them to figure it out instead of forcing something based on an agenda which won't make them anymore happier or fulfilled, but instead serves someone else's purposes. It's kind of like indoctrination and religion. Kids need a smorgasbord to dine on without some telling them what to eat. They find their way.


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Quote from: Viktor on July 06, 2017, 11:32:09 AM
In your view women still have no agency to choose for themselves and if we tear down "female beauty" everyone will think the same?

We develop agency over time.  Those ideas in which we have been bathed prior to our maturation can be harder to throw off at a later date.  For example, the next religion that tries to convert me won't capture a minute of my attention, but extricating myself from the one in which I was indoctrinated was horribly painful.  I don't dispute that many men and women like the gendered state of affairs as is.  What I say is that if we dispensed with the "You're so pretty/You're so tough" dichotomy with toddlers, we wouldn't end up with a society in which someone can make millions by contending that men and women are from completely different planets.

I get your point, but think peer pressure from other girls/women affects girls far more regards beauty standards than does upbringing or parental opinions about beauty. And I imagine that has always been there in all societies all through history, not just now with the ultra-skinny model types or the plastic surgery generations, because women often want to 'fit in' with other women.

It wasn't until the late teens when I noticed girls in school stared caring about shaving or make-up, because other girls were shaming them for not caring about it. Till then, none of them had been socialized to shave or get made up as kids, either by parents or the TV. It was the teenage/young adult peer pressure that affected them most strongly, and where that came from seemed to be from the female group itself, which had decided these things and bullied the girls who didn't conform... younger girls and older women were less affected apparently because either side of this phase they didn't care about fitting in to this particular group.

Because...machines are wicked cool!

and fun to mess with.

Quote from: Viktor on July 07, 2017, 04:01:27 AM
I get your point, but think peer pressure from other girls/women affects girls far more regards beauty standards than does upbringing or parental opinions about beauty. And I imagine that has always been there in all societies all through history, not just now with the ultra-skinny model types or the plastic surgery generations, because women often want to 'fit in' with other women.

It wasn't until the late teens when I noticed girls in school stared caring about shaving or make-up, because other girls were shaming them for not caring about it. Till then, none of them had been socialized to shave or get made up as kids, either by parents or the TV. It was the teenage/young adult peer pressure that affected them most strongly, and where that came from seemed to be from the female group itself, which had decided these things and bullied the girls who didn't conform... younger girls and older women were less affected apparently because either side of this phase they didn't care about fitting in to this particular group.

Peer pressure does, but having open dialogues with them helps. too many parents are disconnected from what their kids are doing or feeling. Luckily, my daughters are very individualistic and different from each other. They are a joy for the most part. Before I was married, I thought I would prefer boys. No way.

I like machines because you can get performance and beauty.
I have an external hard drive from 2001.
It's like 250gig and it scares me that I still use it, but it's pretty for a hard drive.
I think I look at machines the same as architecture. It doesn't have to be bland to be a quality building.
I'm also a musician and I like the pretty lights on my amp, but I made sure it works well too

It's not just guys  I know several girls that are into robotics and machines.  I like them too.  It's one thing I'm carrying over in my transition.

Technophilia is not gender-exclusive, though males have dominated it in the past. Some people believe there is a natural tendency of the female to have a greater interest in the overall, while males tend to focus on the specific. I rather think culture has a lot to do with this, though. In recent years there has been a rapid rise of females going into technology fields. And, as this forum demonstrates, there has also been a rise in genetic males expressing interest in  the "feminine".

I've certainly known plenty of men who had little interest in machines. For some reason my male friends always seem to be the type who call me to come change their flat tire for them. Go figure.

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 30, 2017, 11:49:12 AM
Can anyone explain why guys like cars and machines so much? I really don't get it.

Julia! Where do u come up with this stuff????

I positively ADORE, LOVE my '06 379  Peterbilt with it's 9speed (+deep reduction and tandem interlock) twin-turbo C13 CAT (engine that is, a classic, that one cannot get anymore!) 7 MPG & no DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) required!!!

Ohhh working so many "buttons & switches' everyday is GREAT!!

Work hinted at SELLING IT & I threatened QUIT!! Everybody else has 'automatics' and just met our new HR dept today - a lady named 'Ann' that reminds me of my mom (also named 'Ann')

Told 'the guys' in the office "I could probably tell her anything" to which they replied "Get Out" !!??

Is that so???? (makes one go "hummm")

Quote from: Kiera on September 21, 2017, 05:55:55 PM
Julia! Where do u come up with this stuff????

I positively ADORE, LOVE my '06 379  Peterbilt with it's 9speed (+deep reduction and tandem interlock) twin-turbo C13 CAT (engine that is, a classic, that one cannot get anymore!) 7 MPG & no DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) required!!!

Ohhh working so many "buttons & switches' everyday is GREAT!!

Work hinted at SELLING IT & I threatened QUIT!! Everybody else has 'automatics' and just met our new HR dept today - a lady named 'Ann' that reminds me of my mom (also named 'Ann')

Told 'the guys' in the office "I could probably tell her anything" to which they replied "Get Out" !!??

Is that so???? (makes one go "hummm")

What? No 8V92?


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