Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello,

What are you views on being Transgender and that that may or not mean living in sin. I heard one Catholic Priest say that living a sin does not mean you have done anything evil, that it is not really  a bad thing, and can easily be forgiven. That the sin of homosexuality or cross gendering is not a carnal sin, and does not mean you have done anything inherently wrong, or that you need to change. The Catholic church says that all pre marital sex is a sin. As a Transgender Bisexual I am far from living up to those standards. Do you believe Jesus loved sinners. Is Being Transgender even something that  needs to be forgiven. I received my families forgiveness, and right after that I received their blessing. If we are forgiven for our sins does that make us blessed. What are your views on the sin of being transgender, if it is a  sin, does receiving forgiveness make us blessed.

Ole good friar Tuck used to say - 'if you don't sin, you won't pray for forgiveness, and without praying, your soul won't be rescued'. Thus, the way to get to the heavens is to enjoy the life to its fullest and be grateful for god's gifts of each day


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As has been stated to me many times to explain the unexplainable. It is Gods plan. Those that have closely held beliefs use that explanation for everything. And when you detransition, It's God's miracle.
Then they will go into trying to prove the point that we are making the choice. I have learned first hand that it is not a choice most would make voluntarily unlike being gay, bisexual or lesbian. I was communicating with a beautiful woman that you would think would be wildly happy at her transformation. But I learned that day that no matter what the appearance, even the most gifted are bitter about being forced into this life because our bodies and our brains are not in sync. When combined with a lack of job prospects. This can be devastating. I believe in Mark 12-31. Love thy neighbor as thyself. This is one of the two most important commandments and the Bible even says so.

You are asking for answers to very important questions that have a tendency to be skewed by denomination etc. I spent quite a fair amount of time getting my head straight on these subjects. Although not Catholic, the blog listed below was very helpful to me in this area. Click the menu and you will see posts relating to most of what you mentioned.

https://eilerspizza.wordpress.com

I tried for a long time, decades, to live in faith according to what the Church has always believed.  Unfortunately, there is a stark dichotomy between what the Church says about trans and what I personally experienced.  In the end this destroyed my faith and it is now as dead as if it never existed at all.  Trying to keep my faith and live what I felt was a constant lie was killing my spirit and draining it of the will to live.  Choosing to reject the faith and everything it stands for was the only sane and rational choice I had left.  Whether or not God and Jesus exist as Christianity teach is irrelevant.  If they do then they were deaf to my prayers anyway; no love there.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Starting with the rejection of my church after my husband of 21 years ran off with a younger woman, then seeing the church's rampant misogyny, racism, bigotry, trans/homophobia in the past 9 years, and after 85% of white evangelicals voted for TRUMP, I no longer have anything to do with Christianity.

Here in Thailand, Thai Buddhism accepts a Third Gender and I love visiting temples just to feel the peace and oneness with the universe.

When our time comes to stand in front of our Lord, it will not matter what denomination we are, whether we are cis gender or a member of the LGBT community. I firmly believe that we will be judged on how we lived our lives, in how we treated others, how we helped others in need. I was born and raised Catholic and am still a practicing Catholic, that does not mean that I agree with all of their doctrine and practices, there are many bigots in their clergy starting from the cardinal's on down, and that goes for other religions also. I attend church for the simple fact that it brings me closer to my Lord on that one day each week where I can feel closer to him. I am sure that would hold true in any church, temple or place of worship. For others to say who is living in sin and judging others is not what Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other belief are, or should be, it is showing compassion for others and being there when in need. For others to tell me that I am a sinner does not matter, there is only one that matters in my life, and that will be my Lord when I stand in front of him, and be judged only by him, not others.

Deborah, your answer is quite interesting.
The faith of Peter, James, John, Paul, Aquila and Priscilla was not Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Pentecostal or any other denomination.
It was the faith of God's elect; the elect lady and her children.
Don't let churches destroy your faith sweetie.
It's not a matter of what a church or governing body think. It's a matter of who is and who is not written in the Lamb's Book Of Life.
It is a matter that Jesus Christ died for you and he knows you, just as he does another person I know here.
And yes, God does hear, and he answers. Sometimes just not how we think.
Have a blessed day.

I do not believe being transgender is a sin. I know that there is a prohibition of homosexuality and sin outside of marriage. What I don't know is, if medically speaking, a trans person is truly the other sex, can they get married after their GCS and not be sinning? Things to ponder.

For the unknowns, I like to think about what Jesus said about who can be saved. He said with men it is impossible, with God anything is possible. Does that mean we can just sin? No. But, on so many issues, the jury is still out. Paul talks about how he can't stop sinning. In other parts of the Bible, it says if you continue to sin, you will go to Hell. Yet, no one doubts Paul is in Heaven. Things to ponder.

I just keep telling myself to trust God.

Too many forget there are those called babes in Christ who need the sincere milk of the word of God and those whom Paul said were mature in the Lord eating meat, or deeper things spiritually.

The word of God says we are renewed day by day and it is not an immediate thing. None of us were born and immediately became an adult. The Spirit of God renews us day by day just as the word of God is given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

Sadly too many Christians fail to see that as they grow, another may grow faster or slower than they.

The Lord looks at each of us separately. He knows our heart. That shouldn't be used as an excuse to sin, but instead, when we do our best we should take comfort in knowing he is merciful. As written, his mercy endureth forever.

The sin unto death, or blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is willfully sinning after coming unto the knowledge of the truth. The sin not unto death, or that which we can pray for, are those which we cannot avoid, whether by knowledge, ability or anything beyond our means.

It's so heartbreaking to see Christians judge and condemn others while they themselves commit sins also referred to as an abomination, such as being proud of heart, or even unbalanced in faith and works.

It is so sad when people are ready to give up and turn away when the Lord already died for their sins and it is man who makes a bigger deal out of one sin than another. It is written, we are not to be a respecter of persons.

It is written that the Lord knows them which are his. His answers may not come in our time, but his time. They may or may not be as we would like to hear, but they are his and given in his time.

We have to stop and think about all Joseph went through and long he was tried before being made next to pharaoh in Egypt. Noah wasn't told to build the ark until he was 500 and the 100 years he took to build it there is no record of his sons helping him. We just assume they did.

Moses waited 40 years and others waited long periods of time. We as Christians can't give up. The Lord does hear and answers in his time.

It really saddened me to read she was giving up. She's such a sweetheart.

My answer to Deborah was for her. I hope she does not give up. Jesus does know her and loves her.

I don't think being trans is a sin. God did make us this way right?  But I don't care who thinks it is a sin. I have an aversion to religion. I have no use or tolerance for these fanatics who say we are doomed to hell for being trans or that aids is god's punishment to gay people.  I don't understand how people can be so ignorant and backward. I would never disrespect someone's religion. But if you're going to call me an abomination and say I'm going to hell for being what I am then you can kick rocks.
Julia

Quote from: Dianne H on August 23, 2017, 08:07:16 PM
Deborah, your answer is quite interesting.
The faith of Peter, James, John, Paul, Aquila and Priscilla was not Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Pentecostal or any other denomination.
It was the faith of God's elect; the elect lady and her children.
Don't let churches destroy your faith sweetie.
It's not a matter of what a church or governing body think. It's a matter of who is and who is not written in the Lamb's Book Of Life.
It is a matter that Jesus Christ died for you and he knows you, just as he does another person I know here.
And yes, God does hear, and he answers. Sometimes just not how we think.
Have a blessed day.

Dianne,

Welcome to the site.

It is very compassionate of you to feel such sadness. However, Deborah has had a long journey and decisions. Perhaps she will change her mind. Perhaps not. Try to feel the happiness she has come to by losing the guilt and what I am guessing could be self loathing. Thanks for jumping in and sharing your knowledge and belief. Churches and religions make so many things issues that are not in the bible nor what Jesus was quoted as saying. Religion is human made. It messes with faith often.

Perhaps you could head over to the introduction category and leave a post. That way we can all get to know about one another.

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Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.

With warmth,

Jacqui

Quote from: Jacqueline on August 23, 2017, 10:03:12 PM
Dianne,

Welcome to the site.

It is very compassionate of you to feel such sadness. However, Deborah has had a long journey and decisions. Perhaps she will change her mind. Perhaps not.

Before I renounced God (not lost my faith) I had spent the better part of seven years studying the faith comprehensively from theology to history and had read a large portion of the Early Church Fathers trying to find anything to support the contention that trans and Christianity could coexist.  I also during that time studied towards an MDiv in a seminary although I didn't finish that.

My conclusion was that we and Christianity are incompatible.  The Religious Right is not saying anything about us that such Church luminaries as St. Augustine didn't say first 1600 years ago.  [I'll quote it if desired but he wrote it in his book, "The City of God."]

Even that didn't make me leave though.  I wanted to hang on.  The catalyst that made me shake my fist at the sky and tell God to go to hell was the Christian response to the Leila Alcon suicide in late 2014.  The sheer nastiness and bile I saw spewing from Christians convinced me that I wanted absolutely nothing to do with a God that engenders such a lack of empathy and such deep hatred in the hearts of men.  Additionally there was the fact that it was Christianity that directly led to her death.  This was shortly before I started HRT and when I was often praying for my own death each night before sleep.  The whole thing affected me deeply.

I've tried to return once since then - unsuccessfully.  Whatever faith I once had is shriveled and dead.  I don't think anything short of a miracle could bring it back to life and miracles seem to be in short supply these days.

I do appreciate your thoughts though.  They made me think about a few things.



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Deborah,

I am sorry if I spoke in place for you. I have watched many of your posts and your struggles for years. You seem much more settled now. (Now it sounds like I'm patronizing) I guess I was trying to find a way to say that it feels to me like your posts are less anguished. There always seems to be more than one path. We can't assume the one idea we personally believe(or not believe) will be the happy answer for all.

I guess I am done rambling for now.

Warmly,

Jacqui

Deborah
It is good you ponder sin. I for one have given up on the dogma that the Christian version of sin defines.  For me, it is about control.  If the higher ups can convince you that this is a sin or that is a sin, then you will be more compliant to their control.  I can't go there with them on that.  I have a moral code that is developed from many sources that do not involve sin.  It is for the greater good. It is to not hurt.  It is to defend the downtrodden.  It is to not judge for minor infractions.   
Once I gave up this inaccessible high standard of not sinning, life got easier. 
We all have a moral code.  We do not need others to define it for us.  Maybe as children to learn right and wrong, but as adults we need to look at those rules as rules for development.  Not rules for life that gives you pain or make you question what you do that hurts no one is some sort of sin.  So sister, live your life.  Follow your path to happiness.  Live life gently with love to all.  And let god do his judgement thing when that day comes.  I think you and he will be ok with a life spent being yourself.

Deborah,

Sweetie, don't shake your fist at God because of people. You're better than that.

I know that you are well versed in scripture but that Christianity has done wrong. Honey, it's not Christianity; nor is it god. It's evil men and women who have arisen; a generation of "Christians" in name only. They have surnamed themselves Christ and have lost compassion and love. I know because I am the victim of their hatred as well but in another light.

Oh how I wish I could say more than I am, but I don't have the posts to PM.

Just tonight I was speaking with a friend and I was telling her about two girls at Susans who I knew the Lord knew. They both had been on my mind for a few weeks off and on. I wondered why and decided to pull up this site.

I saw your post and it touched me so deeply.

I guess all I can say is that I saw your last struggle and your fight. I saw how you started coming forward again.

Sweetie, don't give up on God. Without saying much more, I'll just say this, God knws a couple of you girls and has showed you to others whom he knows won't judge you or give up on you either.

I don't know the person you speak of but whatever hatred they showed was uncalled for. They will answer at the judgment seat of Christ for the hate they spewed.

Hatred does happen to all of us at times. Sometimes it may be directed towards gay or transger people and at others towards those who speak the truth or step out of the boat to help those whom those heartless individuals think are evil or lost.

Please; don't give up on God. Don't hate God or Jesus because evil men and women call themselves Christians. God will repay them some day.

What really matters is your soul and that of every person straight, gay, transgender or cisgender who is trying their best.

It has been an honor to read your posts.

Sweetie, take care and may God bless.

I refuse to believe that we and Christianity are incompatible. God says he loves us all. Everyone. He wants us to turn to Him. If I am transgender, and I am, I am still loved by God. He will never abandon me. That is His promise to all of us. As far as some Christians go, yes, they are stupid and ignorant. I stay away from those.

I am a very dedicated Christian and go to church weekly. It seems like in the transgender community there is a lot of angst and disdain toward Christians and religion in general. I understand its deserved but isn't generalizing all Christians based on the actions of a few no different toward what others do toward transgender people, generalizing all transgender people based on the actions of a few? Judge the individual, not the group is what I say. Just because one Muslim blows himself up doesn't mean all Muslims are violent, and just because one Christian does something hateful/transphobic doesn't mean all Christians are like that.

I don't think being trans is a sin anyway. You are simply changing your outer appearance, not who you are inside. I feel me being trans will not affect or interfere my walk with the Lord in any way.

I think if one's definition of "sin" is like a kind of currency that you earn by deed and are relieved of simply by ritual confession or supposed interpersonal repentance, there's room for that run amok into a blasphemy by which a lifetime of dishonorable or even wicked acts could be freely lived, simply because one knows there is forgiveness at the end. What kind of lifestyle does that promote?

If one's definition of "sin" is as more of a learning prompt by which you grow and evolve as a person or on a spiritual level - so that you eventually don't do bad things in the same way that you know not to pee while sitting on your couch - that's more the kind of theosophy that's actually useful in a sense of serving your being, rather than just applying a magic band-aid so to say. You use the magic band-aid of love with children who don't know any better. But there are a lot of defined "sins" people commit that, quite frankly, they know better - there's just no adult trying to stop them.

Obviously this makes no effort to define "sin" - that's intentional. If you ask Satanists, they describe rape as being the worst possible sin / crime (and there's no 'evil is good' inversion here - I mean quite literally that they condemn the act). But if we were to try defining sin, would that not serve as a reasonable baseline of something to never even have the impulse in your head to do? Understanding the nature of one's interaction with sin is necessary in order for it to actually have any meaning - which since the topic thereof is even being discussed, I'd surmise those here want it to.

Quote from: missmolly on August 24, 2017, 11:54:15 AM.I understand its deserved but isn't generalizing all Christians based on the actions of a few no different toward what others do toward transgender people, generalizing all transgender people based on the actions of a few?

If it were just a few then you would be correct.  But it is not just a few.  It is most who continually vote and act to make trans people's lives miserable and whose actions are killing us.

Also, I am not judging individuals.  I am judging the religion and it is lacking. 



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Quote from: OU812 on August 24, 2017, 01:14:13 PM
I think if one's definition of "sin" . . .

Sin has a well established definition in Christian Theology.

"SIN Defined by theologians as any thought, word, or deed that transgresses the law of God. In the famous words of Saint Augustine, sin is "something said, done, or desired that is contrary to the eternal law"
Catholic Bible Dictionary, pg 851

Any other definition may serve to soothe one's conscience but otherwise lies outside the realm of Christianity.



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Quote from: Deborah on August 24, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Sin has a well established definition in Christian Theology.

"SIN Defined by theologians as any thought, word, or deed that transgresses the law of God. In the famous words of Saint Augustine, sin is "something said, done, or desired that is contrary to the eternal law"
Catholic Bible Dictionary, pg 851

Any other definition may serve to soothe one's conscience but otherwise lies outside the realm of Christianity.

Somehow by isolating one specific phrase from my post, you managed to miss the forest for the trees of what I said. I'm referring to the nature of sin in relation to the human experience, not what constitutes a sin.

Proverbs 21: [4] An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Proverbs 24: [9] The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Romans 14: [23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

James 4: [17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 john 5: [17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

These are a few examples of what the word of God defines as sin.

Ou812

I didn't see your post above mine before posting.

What causes the nature of sin is that it says the creature was made subject to vanity.

It is written the heart of man is deceitfully wicked, the spirit within us lusteth unto envy and the carnal mind is enmity with God.

To use the above and be carnally minded is our nature which will war against the Holy Ghost and cause us to sin when we give heed to them.

I must not.  I can not or I will be a sinner.
Reference:
FemMans 4: (20) As one walks the hard path, ye shan't disparage a fellow sojourner.  For if ye wonder off that path, the Wrath of Cindy shall descend upon ye and it will not be good for thy rep.

Love you Cindy and other mods

Quote from: Dianne H on August 24, 2017, 08:45:55 PM
Ou812

What causes the nature of sin is that it says the creature was made subject to vanity.

It is written the heart of man is deceitfully wicked, the spirit within us lusteth unto envy and the carnal mind is enmity with God.

To use the above and be carnally minded is our nature which will war against the Holy Ghost and cause us to sin when we give heed to them.

Again, this is well-intended, but misses the point.

So you sin because it's in your nature. Easy. We can take that as a given. I'd argue that the innate nature of the human from childhood is not "deceitfully wicked", though we can assume that nobody's perfect. But there's follow-up...

So you sinned... and? What's the result? You just keep doing the same old sins over and over again and repenting? I had a bully in Catholic school who would punch me five times in ten seconds and say sorry each time. Translate that to adult form with someone who cheats on his wife, or robs people, or just lives an immoral life, and just keeps getting away with it over and over again - because his religion tells him his supreme deity will forgive him no matter what.

This is my point. You can't build a society on this stuff. If the extant definitions of sin aren't there to inspire you towards a more moral life, there's no point in even labeling that they exist - that would be of no service to bringing humans closer to alignment with the creator's vision.

If it's not something the individual is working on, sin may as well be this cargo you pick up, transport, and drop off like a trucker, really having no interaction with it. The only outcome of that would be feeling like crap, like you have flaws that you're unable to improve, and may as well just keep doing them instead of improving your lifestyle. What good is a principle if breaking it isn't really a big deal?

Especially in relation to the idea of gender identity being a sin, two words come to mind: internalized transphobia. You don't get a pet dog and send it hurtful messages all the time like the animal isn't a valued and respected member of your household. No supreme deity would do that to a creature with the learning capacity of a human - if they would, they're simply not my deity.

In the things I mentioned about the heart, mind and spirit, it bears witness that we are created subject unto vanity. The spirit of man wars against the Spirit of God, just as written.

Having said that, we are changed by the Spirit of regeneration which Paul spoke of. We are renewed as we allow the Spirit of God to work in our life. If we don't allow the Spirit of God to work in our life we will never change.

It is written the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. Whichever we give in to or follow is what will end up molding us (for a lack of a better word this morning) into that which pleases or angers the Lord.

It is also written, not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. Salvation, renewing and walking in the Spirit and being free of the law, having the law of the Spirit of life in Christ make us free from the law of sin and death all is determined by which spirit we follow, the Spirit of God, or our own spirit.

As for children, David said he was born in sin and shapen in iniquity. It is written foolishness (the fool says in his heart there is no God and the fool does that which is right in his own eyes) is bound up in the hearts of a child.

With all respect, I trust scripture and not my own wants or modern Christianity teachings which pick and choose which sin or abomination of which sex or sexual orientation is mentioned or called out. As written, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

May God bless.

Christianity is pretty simple really. The original version was superseded by the "New" version. After that just keep in mind. "Thou shalt love God with all they heart" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself. Here is the indisputable truth. There are no greater commandments than these. Unfortunately not many believe it.

Dawn Oday,

You are right.

Unfortunately in love the Lord your God they use the little "g" god instead of God. Many have themselves their god and love themselves to death and everyone else next, if even at all.

They are quick to point out another's sin while justifying their own. That's pretty sad.

All of us need the mercy of Jesus in one way or another.

I haven't been thinking about this very long, so my views are fairly un-nuanced at this point.

But it seems to me that transgenderism, intersex, these are all the results of sin in a fallen world.  But not a sin in themselves.

I haven't read the church fathers take on this, but I'd be interested in references that you have Deborah - as i struggle through my own part here. I love my church, but know I would be a pariah if I transitioned.  I think that's more a culture shock than anything biblical for most members. Church culture is pretty well slow to change.  Churches do a lot of good for community, but not for trans in general.

I do think transgenderism probably dances around sin, if taken outside of marriage.  I'm still working through how it plays against homosexuality - which I've always been convinced is a sin(but I'm rethinking that!).   

So glad to have an opportunity to discuss this with like minded folk.

Sarah.

The bible is not clear cut on transgender issues which is why I personally don't believe it's a sin, I think the issue when it comes to being transgender is that alot of people think it's a slap in the face toward God, which <to me>is actually pretty understandable but at the same time, God had a plan for everyone before we were born, so I would think he knew and wouldn't be upset, I feel like being transgender is like being intersexed and that personally it's the Devils doing because the bible states that, he's the one that causes sicknesses, illnesses and diseases and I think
birth defects would be apart of that. Now as far as homosexuality goes, well the bible is pretty clear cut on that but I do not judge anyone and I feel you should do whatever makes you happy. Does God and Jesus love sinners? Yes he does, he sent his only son to die for us so I think he loves all of his Children and Jesus hung out with the sinners, the prostitutes, fornicaters, drug addicts etc etc and I agree that sinning doesn't make you evil, we have all fallen short of God's glory hence as to why Jesus died for us. He knows hearts. He created us.

Quote from: OU812 on August 25, 2017, 07:09:16 AM
Again, this is well-intended, but misses the point.

So you sin because it's in your nature. Easy. We can take that as a given. I'd argue that the innate nature of the human from childhood is not "deceitfully wicked", though we can assume that nobody's perfect. But there's follow-up...

So you sinned... and? What's the result? You just keep doing the same old sins over and over again and repenting? I had a bully in Catholic school who would punch me five times in ten seconds and say sorry each time. Translate that to adult form with someone who cheats on his wife, or robs people, or just lives an immoral life, and just keeps getting away with it over and over again - because his religion tells him his supreme deity will forgive him no matter what.

This is my point. You can't build a society on this stuff. If the extant definitions of sin aren't there to inspire you towards a more moral life, there's no point in even labeling that they exist - that would be of no service to bringing humans closer to alignment with the creator's vision.

If it's not something the individual is working on, sin may as well be this cargo you pick up, transport, and drop off like a trucker, really having no interaction with it. The only outcome of that would be feeling like crap, like you have flaws that you're unable to improve, and may as well just keep doing them instead of improving your lifestyle. What good is a principle if breaking it isn't really a big deal?

Especially in relation to the idea of gender identity being a sin, two words come to mind: internalized transphobia. You don't get a pet dog and send it hurtful messages all the time like the animal isn't a valued and respected member of your household. No supreme deity would do that to a creature with the learning capacity of a human - if they would, they're simply not my deity.

You said something about  the Children, actually you are not held accountable for your sins until you are old enough to know right from wrong and another thing I gotta point out is there are sins of ommision and commision meaning, sometimes we have no idea that we are even sinning and then there are some of us who know full blown well that we are sinning. Another thing is I personally feel like if you know what you are doing id wrong and you just keep doing it then I really don't think God is going to forgive you but we don't know what's in anyone's heart because only God knows that and again we have all fallen short of God's glory which is why he sent his only son to die for us, now that's love.

This is something I'm really trying to come to grips with. As one person said, there isn't really a clear cut bible definition of whether being transgender is a sin.  So we rely on whatever the leaders of our particular denomination have said for that definition. And since Christianity has, for lack of a better word, evolved with the times since Christ walked the earth, its hard to really say.  I do not think that being transgender wasn't a thing in Christ's time, but I do think that because of the way the world worked in his day, it wasn't known as much, and people probably were, like we are today, afraid of what might happen if they said, 'Look, I don't really think this is how I meant to be.' Even mental illnesses were looked down upon, birth defects, all these things we are born inherently with.
I was born into a female body that so desperately tries to be male, with a mental state that I feel is more masculine than feminine. I feel for me, even if I felt my gender was female, I still am transgender, to correct all that is my body, it almost seems like a transition either way. Its hormones and other medications to make me fully function as a female, hormones and other medications, possibly surgeries to function as a male.  If being transgender is a sin, then why was I born in this body with this mind? Am I supposed to just be in between?
But then, how can I be in between, if gender is critical to God's plan as my religion teaches? My religion states, 'male' and 'female' are the genders.  So then, it suggests I have to pick one.  But then, it seems because I was born with female parts and earned a couple more in puberty, even though they don't work, I have to pick female. But what about the male parts of me? How can I ignore those?  To ignore them is almost like a death sentence.
But if I pick male, then don't I have to like women?  Or is it still based on the genitals that makes the sin? But then what about the people who are born intersex?  Are we to determine they are sinful just because they have physical differences from the traditional male and female?
These are just a few of the many questions I ask myself.  And to be honest, I found my answer as thus: I was born this way. This is who I am. To say I am 100% female is to sin not only against myself, but also God. I cannot choose to be female anymore than I can choose to be a cat.  If I choose female, I sentence my entire being to death, maybe not necessarily physically in the sense that I've gone and at the very least self-harmed, but emotionally and physically in the sense that I deny me and make my sense of self disappear.  And to take something God created and to end it, that... is a sin.

All that said, it also one thing to identify as a specific gender and another to undergo reassignment surgery.  I don't know if surgery truly is a sin.  But my denomination, its possible to be excommunicated for it (from what I've read. I don't know all the accounts of if that's true or not). So perhaps alterations to your body may be?  But I feel like, if you need to do it to live with yourself, then that's what you have to do.

That said, I am no longer an active member of my denomination, because while I do believe a majority of the tenets, I do not believe I am a sinner for my gender identity or my sexuality.  And I do not like some of the policies they've come out with in regards to families of LGBT+ people.

My firm belief on the matter is, God loves us all, sinners and saints alike. And to be honest, there is no one on this earth who is a saint. No one is perfect. But I feel like those who have judged harshly will be judged harsher than those who were true to themselves, even if they were sinners because of their identity or their orientation and so on.

There isn't anything in the Bible that explicitly states that being transgender or transitioning is a sin.  Even so, I think it's difficult to reconcile Christianity with Transgender and transition.  You can do some mental gymnastics and kind of pull it off though.  Homosexuality on the other hand - the Bible is very clear about that.

Quote from: Rowena_Ellenweorc on September 06, 2017, 12:58:18 AM
This is something I'm really trying to come to grips with. As one person said, there isn't really a clear cut bible definition of whether being transgender is a sin.  So we rely on whatever the leaders of our particular denomination have said for that definition. And since Christianity has, for lack of a better word, evolved with the times since Christ walked the earth, its hard to really say.  I do not think that being transgender wasn't a thing in Christ's time, but I do think that because of the way the world worked in his day, it wasn't known as much, and people probably were, like we are today, afraid of what might happen if they said, 'Look, I don't really think this is how I meant to be.' Even mental illnesses were looked down upon, birth defects, all these things we are born inherently with.
I was born into a female body that so desperately tries to be male, with a mental state that I feel is more masculine than feminine. I feel for me, even if I felt my gender was female, I still am transgender, to correct all that is my body, it almost seems like a transition either way. Its hormones and other medications to make me fully function as a female, hormones and other medications, possibly surgeries to function as a male.  If being transgender is a sin, then why was I born in this body with this mind? Am I supposed to just be in between?
But then, how can I be in between, if gender is critical to God's plan as my religion teaches? My religion states, 'male' and 'female' are the genders.  So then, it suggests I have to pick one.  But then, it seems because I was born with female parts and earned a couple more in puberty, even though they don't work, I have to pick female. But what about the male parts of me? How can I ignore those?  To ignore them is almost like a death sentence.
But if I pick male, then don't I have to like women?  Or is it still based on the genitals that makes the sin? But then what about the people who are born intersex?  Are we to determine they are sinful just because they have physical differences from the traditional male and female?
These are just a few of the many questions I ask myself.  And to be honest, I found my answer as thus: I was born this way. This is who I am. To say I am 100% female is to sin not only against myself, but also God. I cannot choose to be female anymore than I can choose to be a cat.  If I choose female, I sentence my entire being to death, maybe not necessarily physically in the sense that I've gone and at the very least self-harmed, but emotionally and physically in the sense that I deny me and make my sense of self disappear.  And to take something God created and to end it, that... is a sin.

All that said, it also one thing to identify as a specific gender and another to undergo reassignment surgery.  I don't know if surgery truly is a sin.  But my denomination, its possible to be excommunicated for it (from what I've read. I don't know all the accounts of if that's true or not). So perhaps alterations to your body may be?  But I feel like, if you need to do it to live with yourself, then that's what you have to do.

That said, I am no longer an active member of my denomination, because while I do believe a majority of the tenets, I do not believe I am a sinner for my gender identity or my sexuality.  And I do not like some of the policies they've come out with in regards to families of LGBT+ people.

My firm belief on the matter is, God loves us all, sinners and saints alike. And to be honest, there is no one on this earth who is a saint. No one is perfect. But I feel like those who have judged harshly will be judged harsher than those who were true to themselves, even if they were sinners because of their identity or their orientation and so on.

I think you have some really good insights into the challenges of understanding this.  And you are right - God loves us all.  I am working on the not judging part - I think that's our calling too!

Quote from: SaraDanielle on August 31, 2017, 07:23:23 PM
I haven't read the church fathers take on this, but I'd be interested in references that you have Deborah - as i struggle through my own part here.Sarah.

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier but I just saw it.  I'm going to post two things from St. Augustine's "City of God".  One is kind of long to keep the context.  In both cases he is referring to the priestesses of the Goddess Cybele (The Great Mother).  These were men who underwent voluntary self castration (complete) in a public ceremony and then spent their lives living as women in service to the temple.  This was in Rome and elsewhere as early as the first century and didn't disappear until the Christian State outlawed pagan religion in the late fourth century.  There are some things written by others but they are more obscure.  It may be that St. Paul, in condemning those who were "malakos" (effeminate) was speaking of the same.

Quote"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9–10, AV)

For anyone that doesn't know, Augustine wasn't an obscure writer.  He was possibly the most influential post apostolic theologian in Christian history.  He was a Bishop in the late fourth and early fifth century in what is now Tunisia in North Africa.  The book in which this is written, "The City of God", is still widely read.

QuoteThese things are bad enough, but they are small and contemptible in comparison with that most cruel abomination, or most abominable cruelty, by which either set is so deluded that neither perishes of its wound. There the enchantment of fields is feared; here the amputation of members is not feared. There the modesty of the bride is outraged, but in such a manner as that neither her fruitfulness nor even her virginity is taken away; here a man is so mutilated that he is neither changed into a woman nor remains a man.

Augustine of Hippo, "The City of God," in St. Augustin's City of God and Christian Doctrine, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. Marcus Dods, vol. 2, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1887), 137.

QuoteCHAP. 26.—CONCERNING THE ABOMINATION OF THE SACRED RITES OF THE GREAT MOTHER

1. Concerning the effeminates consecrated to the same Great Mother, in defiance of all the modesty which belongs to men and women, Varro has not wished to say anything, nor do I remember to have read anywhere aught concerning them. These effeminates, no later than yesterday, were going through the streets and places of Carthage with anointed hair, whitened faces, relaxed bodies, and feminine gait, exacting from the people the means of maintaining their ignominious lives. Nothing has been said concerning them. Interpretation failed, reason blushed, speech was silent. The Great Mother has surpassed all her sons, not in greatness of deity, but of crime. To this monster not even the monstrosity of Janus is to be compared. His deformity was only in his image; hers was the deformity of cruelty in her sacred rites. He has a redundancy of members in stone images; she inflicts the loss of members on men. This abomination is not surpassed by the licentious deeds of Jupiter, so many and so great. He, with all his seductions of women, only disgraced heaven with one Ganymede; she, with so many avowed and public effeminates, has both defiled the earth and outraged heaven. Perhaps we may either compare Saturn to this Magna Mater, or even set him before her in this kind of abominable cruelty, for he mutilated his father. But at the festivals of Saturn, men could rather be slain by the hands of others than mutilated by their own. He devoured his sons, as the poets say, and the natural theologists interpret this as they list. History says he slew them. But the Romans never received, like the Carthaginians, the custom of sacrificing their sons to him. This Great Mother of the gods, however, has brought mutilated men into Roman temples, and has preserved that cruel custom, being believed to promote the strength of the Romans by emasculating their men. Compared with this evil, what are the thefts of Mercury, the wantonness of Venus, and the base and flagitious deeds of the rest of them, which we might bring forward from books, were it not that they are daily sung and danced in the theatres? But what are these things to so great an evil,—an evil whose magnitude was only proportioned to the greatness of the Great Mother,—especially as these are said to have been invented by the poets? as if the poets had also invented this that they are acceptable to the gods. Let it be imputed, then, to the audacity and impudence of the poets that these things have been sung and written of. But that they have been incorporated into the body of divine rites and honors, the deities themselves demanding and extorting that incorporation, what is that but the crime of the gods? nay more, the confession of demons and the deception of wretched men? But as to this that the Great Mother is considered to be worshipped in the appropriate form when she is worshipped by the consecration of mutilated men, this is not an invention of the poets, nay, they have rather shrunk from it with horror than sung of it. Ought any one, then, to be consecrated to these select gods, that he may live blessedly after death, consecrated to whom he could not live decently before death, being subjected to such foul superstitions, and bound over to unclean demons? But all these things, says Varro, are to be referred to the world.1 Let him consider if it be not rather to the unclean. But why not refer that to the world which is demonstrated to be in the world? We, however, seek for a mind which, trusting to true religion, does not adore the world as its god, but for the sake of God praises the world as a work of God, and, purified from mundane defilements, comes pure to God Himself who founded the world.


Augustine of Hippo, "The City of God," in St. Augustin's City of God and Christian Doctrine, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. Marcus Dods, vol. 2, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1887), 137–138.

 :police:   Subject is locked for some clean up    :police:

-Checks microphone- Test, test. Yup it's on.

I am unlocking this topic.  However, I have something to say here. (accompanying groans).

This topic is in the category labeled Christianity. That assumes Christianity exists as a belief and all that is upheld by Christian precepts. Put simply, it is not to debate a validity of Christianity. That could be done but not here and not in this topic. It is about whether sin in particular from the Christian point of view.

I recognize that the many different denominations of Christianity do not agree on many subjects. However, those are the rules. Let's please follow them.

Thank you. Ahem, can someone mute this mic please?

Warmly,

Jacqui

Quote from: DawnOday on September 06, 2017, 12:32:10 PM
If transgenderism is a sin. Please explain DES poisoning. I don't believe we sin in utero. Do you? It was predetermined not by God but by medical malpractice using a drug without

I agree.  This begs the question, do the churches today, or ever, speak for God or or they speak for man?

Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:29–30, AV)

Yet as we can all attest, in this case the burden is not light at all.  It is rather crushingly heavy.

Jesus goes on to say, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." (Matthew 23:2–4, AV)

If this last does apply to this issue, which I believe it does, then the churches do not speak for God and we should recognize them for what they are.

Quote from: Deborah on September 06, 2017, 01:09:58 PM
I agree.  This begs the question, do the churches today, or ever, speak for God or or they speak for man?

Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:29–30, AV)

Yet as we can all attest, in this case the burden is not light at all.  It is rather crushingly heavy.

Jesus goes on to say, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." (Matthew 23:2–4, AV)

If this last does apply to this issue, which I believe it does, then the churches do not speak for God and we should recognize them for what they are.

If religion speaks for God, why are there over 4000 different versions?  Here is a law to live by. It is self explanitory and has every right to be viewed with the same passion as in the old testament. As in, Love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no greater commandment than these. Loving God with all thy heart is number one.

Love thy neighbor in the OT was read as love other Jews.  You have to go to the NT before one said that this was incorrect and that your neighbor is all of humankind.


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