Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have been reading the book; The Gendered Self by Anne Vitale. It has been helpful in wrapping my head around many difficult aspects of transition.  One section that struck me specifically and caused me to stare off in the distance thinking was this:

"Life in one's assigned birth sex may not have been comfortable but it is all the client has known. If transition is to go well, it is imperative that the individual find a release from the hold of the old gender role. Although it is not generally thought of, male-to-female transsexuals not only evolve toward becoming more womanly, they must also stop holding on to the identity they have been counting "on for survival for decades—their entrenched old male identity. Essentially, she must stop being a man. That is what the SOC means when it says that a client who is presenting for surgery should show "Demonstrable progress in consolidating one's gender identity" prior to being referred for sex reassignment surgery."

Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. "The Gendered Self." iBooks. https://itun.es/us/pAq7A.l"

What does it mean to you to "stop being a man"? It is easy to say but how does that walk out in everyday life. My wife has a hard time with this whole process because she thinks we focus too much on what she calls the "caricature" of woman and not what women really are. So are we talking about changing simple things like the away we sit, or walk or speak or is there something more.

I think each of us would see this from a different perspective and I would like to open this up for sharing on how you see it in your life.

To "stop being a man" was one of the hardest parts of transition for me. For 60 years I hid how I really felt and learned how to fit into the mans world. I learned well and got pretty good at it.

Unlearning and letting go of that after 60 years was difficult. I learned how not to walk like a girl, how not to make girly hand gestures, how not to pout and many other things. Letting go of that and allowing myself to just be me took a good year. I don't think I really understood that until looking back on it. Anyway, that's what "stop being a man" means to me.

For me, 'stop being a man' means open up emotionally, ease up my ways of thinking of what is acceptable and not (men tend to self-police themselves more - guys are afraid to be perceived gay or effeminate but that is no longer an option when you en-femme) and accept my vulnerability (as a guy, I'm always in alert mode, to fight or flight, since I have responsibility to defend myself and those with me - and that obviously shows in my face).

I also realize that as a trans-woman I am no longer entitled to male privilege (I know some people find it annoying, but for me it's a part of the whole package), and held to higher standards in looks and expected behaviors.

And lastly, I am much more aware of my need for safety. When I said, I accept myself to be vulnerable, I didn't mean I want to be hurt, so I had to be smart and avoid dark alleys, etc


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Interesting. I don't think I could deliberately change my gender behavior. I've tried to force myself to walk or act like a girl, by copying others, but within seconds I forget about it and revert.

But I'm not trying to physically transition to male either. I have always had male behaviors, so I'm just myself.

I don't really have a strong female identity.
I sort of think of myself as male, although I have a more female mode.
I was gender fluid most of my life, switching back and forth without being aware of it until I accidentally discovered that a local Thai herb, derris scandens, seems to blend my gender modes and make me an angrogyne, with male leanings.

Strangely, I have always assumed male privilege, even as a child,  and anyone who didn't give it to me was going to have a confrontation with me. I regularly fought back, scratched and bit any boys at our small mission school who dared try to bully me. Usually though I ran around with boys and even had my own gang of followers.
After puberty, I began to carry weapons like short sticks to rap strangers who tried to grope me, and of course I had deadly aim with a rock. In college, I took karate and self defense classes for two years.

Even now, if some Thai guy in public transportation does manspreading into my space, I will likely shove his leg, give him a dagger look and make an angry Thai clicking noise. If he resists, I flare up in rage and loudly confront him, sometimes with curses, although I at least try to use a language he doesn't likely know.

I am not saying I deliberately change my mannerisms. It's deeper than that, I let my guard down, then all of it flows out by itself.


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My "manly expressions" are deeply entrenched when I feel exposed to men. Its an automatic response when a guy is near. It can be difficult to let down that shield, but when I do I do not think about observing every person around me. I don't think about being aware of their every reaction. I don't have to keep my hands in my pockets to keep from talking with them way too much for a regular guy.

I also taught myself to walk "like a boy" in jr high. I remember concentrating on keeping my toes pointed out to force myself to walk with a wider gait. Funny when I first remembered doing that my wife said she always thought I walked funny. Now sometimes I still have to think about it to not do that. When I run I cannot keep that wide gait foot placement. Running forces me into a natural leg movement which for me requires a bit of hip to run.

The more time I spend being free and the more time around other women, cis and trans, the harder it is to pretend to be a guy. Not just mentally but habitually.

Don't think I have ever been a "man" but its more of behaving how I now feel, find it harder at work even our female tech is getting more"blokey"

Ripley, kicking the Alien out of the airlock.

My first therapist told me things such as:

1) when climbing stairs, take one step at a time. Guys skip steps.

2) walk slower. Unless you are escaping danger, you don't need to look like you are in a hurry.

3) observe women in public. Pay attention to fluctuations in their voices, and hand gestures.

4) dress appropriately. Sure, some women go to appointments and such in blue jeans and a T-shirt, but you must try to do better than them.

1-2) is naturally achieved if you wear 3" heels :)


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It's not about how you walk, or how you sit, or how you dress.  It's not about mannerisms either.  These are the 'caricatures' that your wife speaks of.

Women are women because of their brains.  Because of the way they think and the way they feel.  And that way of thinking and feeling permeates every aspect of their lives and especially their social interactions.

The physical transition is, relatively speaking, very easy.  You pop some pills, inject some estrogen, easy.  Virtually painless and not much work at all.  Surgery?  Ok that's harder and certainly quite painful, but still all you do is lie down on the table, wake up later, and just wait out the recovery.  It doesn't take that long to do.

But the social transition?  That's much, much harder and will likely take many years.  Not only do you need to give yourself permission to think and feel like a woman (you were born with a female brain, so you already have the equipment!), but you must also un-learn all the male socialization you acquired, while at the same time learning how to socialize as a female in a very short time - something that cis women developed over a lifetime.

The later in life you transition, and the greater the number of distinct male social roles you established in your old life (husband, father, etc), the more difficult it will be to "stop being a man".

Sounds like she doesn't understand the non-binary transgender world.
Sounds like something that could have been taught at Johns Hopkins back in the day.

I'm not really clear on how you stop being a man, but I assume there's something to it. I guess I'll find out one day.

I've a bit of an issue with this bit though.

Quote from: 2.B.Dana on July 17, 2017, 08:15:07 AM
That is what the SOC means when it says that a client who is presenting for surgery should show "Demonstrable progress in consolidating one's gender identity" prior to being referred for sex reassignment surgery."

What does it have do to with being ready for surgery? If I can't stop being a man does that mean I'm not trans and surgery's not suitable somehow. I don't agree and it sounds like a very dated attitude.

Very interesting responses from everyone. While the book is by Anne Vitale she is quoting from the Standards of Care Version 6 from WPATH. We now have version 7 but these types of statements are still in there.

If you are not familiar with her she is a transwoman herself who became a psychologist after transition and wrote this book after working with over 500 trans clients. While we may not identify or agree with every opinion she states she does know a thing or two about what we experience.

Dr. Vitale's site is one of the first I ran across when the dysphoria got really bad. I was still questioning who and what I was until I found her article "Unlived Lives." I checked every box in her description of transgendered people except for the one about overcompensating toward male behavior. Her writing crystallized my understanding of my situation and was the last straw that led me to come out to my wife and seek a therapist to move forward. I can't post links yet, but if you want to read it just do a search for "Dr Anne Vitale Unlived Lives" and it'll pop right up.

As for the MANnerisms (see what I did there?), my wife and I attended a trans get-together last weekend. After dinner most of the group went to an alternate-rock concert down the street which we weren't interested in (yeah, we're old), so we walked the four blocks to the beach with me fully dressed. It was my first time out in such a public place, but in the middle of a resort town, threading through the crowds spilling onto the sidewalks out of the bars, nobody gave a second glance. I doubt that I was passing that well, but I wasn't flamboyant enough to draw attention, and everyone was just living their lives. Also, the town has a reputation for being LGBT friendly, so nobody seemed to notice my wife and I holding hands.

However, down at the beach with fewer people around I made a miss-take (see what I did there?). I was thinking to myself, "self, you're killing it here!" I was feeling really good, and a family was coming the other way on the path, with the dad pushing the stroller. He wasn't paying any attention, but I was feeling friendly, so I gave him a smile and the male-style "s'up" head-nod. That's when he did the double-take. D'oh!

I was feeling kinda sheepish, so to compensate I went and used the women's restroom in the park. I felt better after that.  ;D

Stephanie

Quote from: Steph2.0 on July 18, 2017, 09:45:48 AM
However, down at the beach with fewer people around I made a miss-take (see what I did there?). I was thinking to myself, "self, you're killing it here!" I was feeling really good, and a family was coming the other way on the path, with the dad pushing the stroller. He wasn't paying any attention, but I was feeling friendly, so I gave him a smile and the male-style "s'up" head-nod. That's when he did the double-take. D'oh!

That's a funny story, thanks for sharing.  :)  If I may give a bit of advice though... It's great that you recognized you made a mistake by doing the male "s'up" head-nod, but did you realize you also made a mistake by being friendly toward that dad?  Even if all you did was smile and wave to him, that would be a mistake as well.  Women are almost never friendly toward male strangers and certainly do not smile at them unless they want to attract the guy's attention (i.e. flirting).  It would, however, have been appropriate for you to smile at the mom, or look toward the stroller and smile at the child there.

This is just one example of many of the social habits that identify you as a man in the eyes of the world around you.  Things that you probably don't even realize that you do, but must be unlearned in order to stop being a man socially.

Quote from: echo7 on July 18, 2017, 11:02:32 AM
Women are almost never friendly toward male strangers and certainly do not smile at them unless they want to attract the guy's attention (i.e. flirting).

Oh.

OH!  :o

Smoly hokes, maybe he thought that cute chick was hitting on him! Well, that 58 year old chick, anyway. Yeah... that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Seriously, thanks for the tip. I was feeling so joyful that day that I wanted to give the whole world a hug. I get very few of those days, but when I do, I'll have to learn to moderate my behavior.

Another lesson learned. That's why I love this site.

Stephanie

Quote from: Steph2.0 on July 18, 2017, 11:35:19 AM
I was feeling so joyful that day that I wanted to give the whole world a hug. I get very few of those days, but when I do, I'll have to learn to moderate my behavior.

Huh... I just reread what I wrote, and what a sad commentary. To think that in a world where many try to deny us happiness, when we do find some we're not supposed to share it.

Echo, I appreciate the lesson and I'll take it to heart while looking for ways to not let the turkeys keep me down.

Sorry to veer off topic. Usually when I veer that hard I hit a tree. Here, you drive...

Stephanie

It took a lot of thinking to realize this, but male me was really nothing more than a way of dressing, an artificially deep voice, and a collection of mannerisms, all of which I learned in childhood and young adulthood.

Being me meant unlearning the voice and going back to the higher nasal voice that I used until was 20, unlearning the man spread, the ape walk, and a lot of other mannerisms.  It also meant not learning the sashaying, exaggerated gestures I've seen and letting my own femininity develop organically -- modest, understated, but unmistakably feminine and unmistakably me.

For me "Stop Being a Man" came in the realization that I was going, and being, way over the top fighting being Trans. Back in my late teens and early 20's I had 2 utter fail transition experiments. I resigned myself to a being a male. Just a CD since that was the only option for this 6ft tall balding big everything person who had the dark cloud of "Some guy in a dress" around me.

To "Stop being a man" for me meant to start trying to be a "For Real" person and not the Hollywood facade of a real man I tried making myself in to. I had to learn it is OK to feel emotions besides the one, anger, that guys are allowed. To see and appreciate the beauty of the world around me and the joy of moving through it, no matter what my presentation is, and much much more. Work made all the more difficult trying to just figuring out who and what I really am.

Learning to be Me = stopping being a man

"Stop being a man" sounds like vague nonsense to me. For who's peace of mind is it that feminine presenting people should also act "womanly?" When I hear this is pushed by therapists, one can't help but think it's just a way of telling people who don't fall in line that they aren't real women.

Quote from: JMJW on July 22, 2017, 07:11:48 AM"Stop being a man" sounds like vague nonsense to me. For who's peace of mind is it that feminine presenting people should also act "womanly?" When I hear this is pushed by therapists, one can't help but think it's just a way of telling people who don't fall in line that they aren't real women.

Personally, it was my social dysphoria that was most painful.  I cannot tolerate misgendering.  Can't abide.  So it really depends on what your goals are for transition. 

If you need people to gender you correctly, automatically, without thinking about it, you have to present in accordance with the general schema they have in their heads.  While this is mostly rooted in voice, face, and body... if those are somewhat masculine, it will take a good deal of social skill to overcome.  And when it comes to longer term interactions -- be it an entire evening at a party, or several years in various relationships (including work, hobbies, friends, even lovers), socialization becomes even more important. 

This is not a matter of being "real."  It's a practical matter, not an existential one.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on July 22, 2017, 07:56:02 AM
Personally, it was my social dysphoria that was most painful.  I cannot tolerate misgendering.  Can't abide.  So it really depends on what your goals are for transition. 

If you need people to gender you correctly, automatically, without thinking about it, you have to present in accordance with the general schema they have in their heads.  While this is mostly rooted in voice, face, and body... if those are somewhat masculine, it will take a good deal of social skill to overcome.  And when it comes to longer term interactions -- be it an entire evening at a party, or several years in various relationships (including work, hobbies, friends, even lovers), socialization becomes even more important. 

This is not a matter of being "real."  It's a practical matter, not an existential one.

That should be up to the patient. It's the idea of medical providers in their ivory towers using "lack of progress" in this regard in order to gate keep surgeries from people with body dysphoria that is oppressive. Or people who don't want to take anti androgens for the rest of their lives. They have no right to be telling people how they should be behaving in order to get surgical, or worse, hormonal treatment. As far as I'm concerned, if someone doesn't want to present female but still wants bottom surgery, than it's their life.

Quote from: JMJW on July 22, 2017, 07:11:48 AM
"Stop being a man" sounds like vague nonsense to me. For who's peace of mind is it that feminine presenting people should also act "womanly?" When I hear this is pushed by therapists, one can't help but think it's just a way of telling people who don't fall in line that they aren't real women.

The practical reality is that we live in a very binary world, and if you live as a woman but don't act like a woman, you are going to have a very hard time outside of LGBT-friendly bubbles.  Even cis women who don't act like women are given a hard time by others - admonished by men and shunned by women.  How much harder is that going to be for a trans woman?

Some people are ok with the constant struggle.  I guess some even thrive off of it.  But not me.  I've struggled enough in my life.  Even putting aside being transgender for a moment, I am an immigrant to America and a racial minority and faced discrimination as a result of that.  I'm tired of fighting.  I just want to fit in, live in peace, and put this transition behind me.

for me it was emotional stoicism...especially with sadness/grief.
I was an easy cryer when i was a child...and shamed into not expressing it.

there are days where I wish I could let the tears flow...I want to unlearn that icy reservce .I hope the day I am on hormones helps with that.

Don't a lot of transfolk persist in one degree or another in acting like their birth gender, and get by anyway?  I've only met a few so don't have much to go by.  I'm really interested now in observing cis women's behavior - no one really plays by some given script 100%.  The SOC still seem a bit rooted in this ultra binary past - and of course many just play along with them for necessity's sake, just like they tell therapists what they want to hear.

I smile a lot and genuinely care about how other people feel already, so am off to a good start, right?  Lots of non-verbal gestures from me too - I always did that just to communicate that much more effectively.  It's not mega-butch to do so but I've never cared much what other people thought of me in the first place.

Bought Vitale's book just now - I'd really like to know if she has solid evidence that HRT is a diagnostic tool for GID like she says on her site.

I bought it yesterday and there have been a few points where I said to myself "Yep that is me ."