Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Yes, tonight I came home and got to see videos of Ben Shaprio doing what he does best. Telling people that transgender people do not exist because at the end of the day, it comes down to chromosomes and only chromosomes... Anyways i am kinda feeling weird about this. One man and one woman I went to middle school with posted this on their walls with the video being titled ''why do you fall for the transgender agenda''. It is a bit weird given that one seemed to be cool with trans people and the other, the female has never made any real poltical post since I first had her on fb. They both went to the same middle school I did back in Victoria British Columbia. Victoria known for its extreme liberal attitudes on LGBT since even the 1980s, it is hard to beleive people in my generation that I knew from that amazingly open minded city would post these things. Not just that, but I lost what little of a friendship i had with this one girl who was going to transition to a man then became a TERF.

Well as a blk person do you think I would hang around folk that chill with say aryan nation members  ?
In other words keep ur distance from trash like that


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Victoria will have some people that are less open. That being said, Victoria is very liberal in general with a strong LGBT community. They will find that sooner or later they will get called out on such views (whether you do it or not). I can't think of many better places to transition... :)

If you would like to link to something, I would suggest you link to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome). The women in the image were born XY and reached testosterone levels that would have masculinized men however from birth, their body has appeared fully feminine and they have never been uncomfortable with their femininity.

Awesome ! Thank you!!

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on August 10, 2017, 08:38:56 PM
Yes, tonight I came home and got to see videos of Ben Shaprio doing what he does best. Telling people that transgender people do not exist because at the end of the day, it comes down to chromosomes and only chromosomes... Anyways i am kinda feeling weird about this. One man and one woman I went to middle school with posted this on their walls with the video being titled ''why do you fall for the transgender agenda''. It is a bit weird given that one seemed to be cool with trans people and the other, the female has never made any real poltical post since I first had her on fb. They both went to the same middle school I did back in Victoria British Columbia. Victoria known for its extreme liberal attitudes on LGBT since even the 1980s, it is hard to beleive people in my generation that I knew from that amazingly open minded city would post these things. Not just that, but I lost what little of a friendship i had with this one girl who was going to transition to a man then became a TERF.

I think the road goes both ways. It doesn't really bother me if people hold opinions I disagree with. I have friends on both extreme ends of the conservative/liberal spectrum. We can disagree all day long, sometimes quite fervently, but we're still friends.

Quote from: Dena on August 10, 2017, 09:28:58 PM
If you would like to link to something, I would suggest you link to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome). The women in the image were born XY and reached testosterone levels that would have masculinized men however from birth, their body has appeared fully feminine and they have never been uncomfortable with their femininity.

This is the right kind of argument. Using information to expose the truth.

He's not a biologist, let alone a geneticist. I'm getting real tired of the mouth breathers.


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I went looking for the YouTube you got from yours friends and don't think I found it, but I did see a couple of Ben Shapiro's videos.  He is very good at his job maybe due to going to Harvard Law School.  Maybe??  For the less experienced or those inclined to his way of thinking it can be persuasive.  Especially if the viewer is a conservative christian.  I would approach him differently than I saw.  But this is not relevant.
For your situation, Dena gave a good link as a response.  Science seldom works but at least it is truth.
There is a chuck of the population that will never get it (us).  We can't fix them.  They will die with their beliefs based on their opinions and religious convictions. I know the only reason the Flat Earth Society went out of existence is they all died off. 
Try to engage them gently.  Do not argue.  If possible try to keep the at least BF friends.  But do not become social until you know they have evolved which more then likely will not happen.  And move on with your life.
One interesting approach is his argument that men are men and women are women.  My response would have been that I am not interested in being a woman.  i don't know what they are.  i just know I am not a man and prefer to present as female. And don't presuppose that I am a woman.  I am just my authentic self.

The Facebook thing can be tough. I saw a link to that as well because some distant acquaintance liked it. Sometimes I engage with people in the comments, mostly I try not to. Even when I put up scientific information there will some die hard who says it's all just theory.

Kinda why a while back I wrote a short paper about how all humans form in utero. There are so many variables that can be just off a bit to vary form the "normal" cis gendered baby.

AIS androgen insensitivity exists because of mutations in the AR (androgen receptor) gene. This gene builds the receptors molecular structure. There are over 400 known mutations catalogued for this gene alone that have varying effects on the uptake of androgen hormones.

Other important gene regulated chemicals include AntiMullerian Hormone (this makes the female structures fade away in males), alpha5-reductase (enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone), testes determining factor (protein that activates the male portion of Porto gonads to active cells to produce AMH).

That's just a quick once over of the biggest players. All of these things can be disrupted by either gene issues or outside chemicals. Chromosomes and genes only provide the "program" for the body to form. It's the interaction in stages of them various chemicals that make things grow or not grow.

I have even got into it with religious types. Using historical facts and the actual surrounding texts usually shuts them up. I did shut down a baptist minister once with facts.

You can count one thing on this planet. Ignorant morons will always have an opinion about everything. Particularly the things they know nothing about. And they are legion. Hell, watch our President, he's the archetype.

Don't let them get you down, I've seen the argument multiple times online, people are holding on to it like it is their anchor, and it really is all they have against us at this point.  It is their go to, whenever they want to try to justify their bigotry, because they believe it is rooted in science.  It is almost certain, that when I watch a video regarding transsexuals or read a news article, the chromosomes argument is brought up frequently. 

It is easy to argue against though, chromosomes do not always define sex. 

I think ultimately, the world is rapidly changing, a lot of these people are terrified of these changes, and grasp on to anything they think they can tear apart to bring back what they are used to.  Gender being a foundation of their world view is not as black and white as they want it to be, and they are having a hard time coming to terms with that.

These people are not going to give up anytime soon, to them, the world is crumbling into utter chaos and they are driven by paranoia and fear.  Any attempt I have made with reasoning with them, often goes down the rabbit hole of insanity, and it becomes apparent just how scared they really are.  They will often argue against the terms homophobia or transphobia, because they claim they are not afraid of us, but that could not be further from the truth, what we represent terrifies them. 

There is a big movement of them on youtube, but eventually I think it will fizzle out, as they slowly get used to their new surroundings, and realize it is not as bad as they used to perceive it.  A lot of them are very paranoid, and prone to believing conspiracies.  Whatever you do, don't get caught up in their current of fear, because it is very easy to get pulled away in it.

How does that saying go? Ah, yes. Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Quote from: Dena on August 10, 2017, 09:28:58 PM
If you would like to link to something, I would suggest you link to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome). The women in the image were born XY and reached testosterone levels that would have masculinized men however from birth, their body has appeared fully feminine and they have never been uncomfortable with their femininity.

Thank you. We had a CAIS Member here some time ago.
Its Something I reference all the time.

Its science and fact.

I point them to these things, explain they should do some research and that before they do, they don't know what they are talking about.

If one really wants to debate those types and sometimes i have to admit i do, there is a large body of evidence that refutes everything those types say. Including McCugh and others. Other times, yeah why even deal with their junk online or otherwise?

Ultimately, why do they care about our "agenda" as though living our lives authentically and having basic human rights etc is hurting them in some way? Its not. They are driven by fear of a collapsing power structure and change that makes them feel uncomfortable. Some people believe that our acceptance will drive others to "join us" and that sort of diverse world where there are alternatives scares them to death.

At the root of all of it is fear.

Quote from: RobynD on August 11, 2017, 04:46:06 PM

Ultimately, why do they care about our "agenda" as though living our lives authentically and having basic human rights etc is hurting them in some way? 

I'll argue that point. I think many of them are afraid of their own feelings. Much like the self loathing gay man who runs around making ->-bleeped-<- jokes and trumpeting his disgust. As has been said,
"the opposite of love is not hate, rather it's indifference".
The person who takes their time to hate us and voice it, is hardly indifferent. Or as Shakespeare so eloquently stated, and I'm paraphrasing  ;D "The jerk doth protest too much, methinks".

Quote from: Jessica Lynne on August 11, 2017, 05:07:44 PM
I'll argue that point. I think many of them are afraid of their own feelings. Much like the self loathing gay ( trans) man (Woman) who runs around making ->-bleeped-<- jokes and trumpeting his (her)  disgust. As has been said,
"the opposite of love is not hate, rather it's indifference".
The person who takes their time to hate us and voice it, is hardly indifferent. Or as Shakespeare so eloquently stated, and I'm paraphrasing  ;D "The jerk doth protest too much, methinks".

Just had to make some minor adjustments to your post Jessica. But yes, I hate to admit it when I was 15 or so I was very much like that.... Always had to somehow show i was regular. My self loathing didnt just involve my trans and bisexual nature. Nope, i denied i had any form of Autism because I wanted to beleive there was no such thing as anyone being Neurologically untypical. Despite my offical diagnosis was at that very age. I wanted to deny my own race, I wasnt half native I would tell people. I would say i was just white. my then GF once she found out I was Native too wanted to tell someone as she thought it was cool, but I was adament she will never tell anyone and we kinda had a small tizzy over it. Even as my my skin colour alone clearly shows I am clearly Native in additon to Irish. I was the definition of self loather.

To be honest I dont know why I hated myself so much to deny just about everything. But yes, I was petty.

Many of us were that way, Ash. I was too.  Our lizard brains want to get the mob or herds confirmation.  It's the people that walk from the herd and blaze their own path and are like you that are the ones worth knowing. They're always the one that makes the difference and they're the ones who think outside the box. If you're thirty anything years old and you're still staring at and sniffing the sheeps next to you's ass, you can count on you're doing something wrong. You learned and many don't.  Ive met many a 70 year old that hasn't learned anything since they got out of high school. Be proud of your learning curve.

Quote from: Jessica Lynne on August 11, 2017, 09:28:06 PM
Many of us were that way, Ash. I was too.  Our lizard brains want to get the mob or herds confirmation.  It's the people that walk from the herd and blaze their own path and are like you that are the ones worth knowing. They're always the one that makes the difference and they're the ones who think outside the box. If you're thirty anything years old and you're still staring at and sniffing the sheeps next to you's ass, you cant count on you're doing something wrong. You learned and many don't.  Ive met many a 70 year old that hasn't learned anything since they got out of high school. Be proud of your learning curve.

Helpful and nice things like this make me happy! Love ya girl!

My pleasure...hugs to you!

Quote from: zamber74 on August 11, 2017, 11:45:29 AM
Don't let them get you down, I've seen the argument multiple times online, people are holding on to it like it is their anchor, and it really is all they have against us at this point.  It is their go to, whenever they want to try to justify their bigotry, because they believe it is rooted in science.  It is almost certain, that when I watch a video regarding transsexuals or read a news article, the chromosomes argument is brought up frequently. 

It is easy to argue against though, chromosomes do not always define sex. 

I think ultimately, the world is rapidly changing, a lot of these people are terrified of these changes, and grasp on to anything they think they can tear apart to bring back what they are used to.  Gender being a foundation of their world view is not as black and white as they want it to be, and they are having a hard time coming to terms with that.

These people are not going to give up anytime soon, to them, the world is crumbling into utter chaos and they are driven by paranoia and fear.  Any attempt I have made with reasoning with them, often goes down the rabbit hole of insanity, and it becomes apparent just how scared they really are.  They will often argue against the terms homophobia or transphobia, because they claim they are not afraid of us, but that could not be further from the truth, what we represent terrifies them. 

There is a big movement of them on youtube, but eventually I think it will fizzle out, as they slowly get used to their new surroundings, and realize it is not as bad as they used to perceive it.  A lot of them are very paranoid, and prone to believing conspiracies.  Whatever you do, don't get caught up in their current of fear, because it is very easy to get pulled away in it.

Zamber has good point.  If it was solely a chromosomal issue then point out to them that chromosomes mutate.  They change.  They try different possibles for known and unknown reason. Point out that we all have similarities but we are different in some small ways.  That is chromosomes hard at work. So there must be more to the situation than chromosomes.  Like developmental issues,  the way our brains are wired.  Things we have not considered yet that makes them different from transgenders. Also you could point out that any birth defect is similar.  Diabetes?  Do those that have it are they just wrong?  Do diabetics make a choice?  Their chromosomes are the same as the non-diabetic.  So it is not really a disease and they just need to buck it up and stop whinnying.

The conservative christians are slow to accept change.  Take for instance, they railed against freeing the slaves, but now blacks are God's children too, for most of them.  They portent the end of the world when women got the right to vote but most of the women in their congregations freely vote now. They quoted the bible to stop integration, but now it's OK.  I remember when rock and roll was the devils music.  Now they have contemporary services that are as loud as any concert I ever went to.  They have lost the anti-gay crusade so on to "men-in-dresses-out-to-assault-the-helpless-babies" in the ladies room crusade.  Not to be dismissive of our challenges with them, but like a kidney stone this too will pass.  Maybe painfully but it will pass.  And in the mean time they continue to rake in the dough.

Shapiro mentions a number of statistics that aren't true (40% transgender suicide rate regardless of treatment is the biggest) And the "Fact don't care about your feelings" line.  So he must have no filter at all then. If a gay or trans person was in stealth and Ben Shapiro knew about it, he would publically out the person, cos its "fact" and feelings don't matter. If someone asked Ben Shapiro if they look good or did well, regardless of who it is, Ben Shapiro is always brutally honest, regardless of if the person is a child or disabled. If it's an intersex person, because facts don't care about feelings and it wouldn't be factual to call the person male or female by Ben's own logic of Chromosomes trump all, then  he would refer to them as "The Intersexed". If someone was standing on a bridge and about to kill themselves, Ben Shapiro, the straight shooter that he is, would shoot from the hip and fire back with his trademark brutal honesty. If Ben found Leelah Alcorn on that bridge and had a chance to talk her down, Ben would use the word "He" and call Leelah a boy, cos as he says "facts don't care about your feelings".   

If facts don't care about feelings, why did they change from "Negro" to "African American". It Ben's premise is true, there would be no reason to change, after all, Negro is linguistically closer to Negroid, the biological classification.

I like Ben Shapiro and agree with him on many things. You're rarely, if ever, going to have complete agreement with anyone in life. If it bothers you to associate with people whose views are significantly different from your own, unfriend them.

I think it would be a mistake though. The whole reason the world was so shocked by this last election cycle is that we're all so caught up in our own micro echo chambers where we only have dialogue with people who believe the same things we do. If you shut out people you don't agree with, you lose the opportunity to present your side.

I'm gonna get flamed, but my favourite Ben Shapiro moment was when Zoey Tur (former member here) told him to stop calling her sir or he'd go home in an ambulance.  :laugh: >:-)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 12, 2017, 09:51:47 AM
I'm gonna get flamed, but my favourite Ben Shapiro moment was when Zoey Tur (former member here) told him to stop calling her sir or he'd go home in an ambulance.  :laugh: >:-)

Hugs, Devlyn

"An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind"

What she did, was reinforce preconceived stereotypes that we are emotionally unstable and delusional.  I don't like Ben Shapiro, I think his arguments were lousy..  such as every cell in Caitlyn's body is male.  Who says that?  Does Shapiro believe that every chromosome has a gender of it's own, a corresponding genitalia?  I would have called him out on that, it was absolutely foolish to say. 

Fight these people at an intellectual level, she should have put aside her own emotions, and use his hate against him.  That is how you win these sorts of debates, he is not rational, he is not skeptical, or logical, he is coming from a place of emotion.  In this context, he is outraged that Caitlyn changed gender.  Use it against him, rather than be drawn into it.   

Quote from: FTMax on August 12, 2017, 09:45:32 AM
I like Ben Shapiro and agree with him on many things. You're rarely, if ever, going to have complete agreement with anyone in life. If it bothers you to associate with people whose views are significantly different from your own, unfriend them.

I think it would be a mistake though. The whole reason the world was so shocked by this last election cycle is that we're all so caught up in our own micro echo chambers where we only have dialogue with people who believe the same things we do. If you shut out people you don't agree with, you lose the opportunity to present your side.

You liking Ben Shapiro is your thing. I am unsure what he says in general that isnt right wing spin one way or the other but then again i havent looked at everything he has done.

I have little issue about disagreeing on certian things. We dont have to agree on abortion or weather we should all be legalizing a plant that has more benefits then not. I can see where some people draw their opposing opinions. But at the same time not all views are equal. Sometimes, it may seem harsh but it is true, one view is more right then the other. Its just people set in their ways that dont want to change. Its like saying that evolution and young earth creationism are equal. They are not, and shouldnt be held as if they are the same playing field. One (evolution) is a theory, the other (young earth creationism) is a claim.  Or like saying the climate change is just a theory, when in fact it has been happening. Now, it can be debated how best to cope and deal with it. But then you got some people who just want to go into denial that it is happening. For example who are we best to beleive, 95% + scientists or Senator James Inhofe who is backed by oil and gas, who says the earth cant be getting warming and then throws snow balls in the Senate chamber to prove his. Again, childish ideas and childish responses from people who are so opposed to being open minded. It also isnt a shocker to see that people like Inhofe and Shapiro have very much the same mind-set on nearly every thing in society. The same goes with gender and sexuality. We are at this stage of life that we understand not everything or everone is black and white one way or the other.  We realize that some people are born in the wrong bodies, the some peoples gender and sexuality may even be a bit fluid and the rest. We realize these days that there is more to life then just everything we have been told largley by parents and society and more importantly, a guy with a microphone. I beleive, looking at my history i was born in the wrong body. And there is reasoning from real scientists and psycologists to back me up, as opposed to some-one with old school opinions to lazy to look at the other side becasue that would admit they were wrong (Rush Limbaugh, Ben Shapiro, ect). When it comes to gender they would say '' if you have a penis you are male... ok get that gone... ok you look, sound, act and function like a woman with a vagina... er lets see now, how can we spin this.. ah-ha, your Y chromosomes.. thats what makes you not a woman.. yada yada yada''. So assuming that science advances and I could get XX chromosmes as I alwasy should and lets throw in a working uterus their responces would turn into ''you were born a boy, so i dont care if everything about you is female''. As I said, these people dont want to change their wrongess, they just want to find where they can look somewhat smart.

I have no problem disagreeing with people if they are a real reason to have these beleifs. Not just because they are too lazy to think outside of the box they are in. And I espeically wont pretend to give someone an equal ground of ideas if their ideas put who i am and how i live into questions. I am a woman, not a side show is all i am saying.

Hugs-Ashley

Quote from: zamber74 on August 12, 2017, 11:13:57 AM
"An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind"

What she did, was reinforce preconceived stereotypes that we are emotionally unstable and delusional.  I don't like Ben Shapiro, I think his arguments were lousy..  such as every cell in Caitlyn's body is male.  Who says that?  Does Shapiro believe that every chromosome has a gender of it's own, a corresponding genitalia?  I would have called him out on that, it was absolutely foolish to say. 

Fight these people at an intellectual level, she should have put aside her own emotions, and use his hate against him.  That is how you win these sorts of debates, he is not rational, he is not skeptical, or logical, he is coming from a place of emotion.  In this context, he is outraged that Caitlyn changed gender.  Use it against him, rather than be drawn into it.

You raised good points but I disagree slightly with your first about and delusional and unstable. She should have used wit and used her brain power to over take his tiny mind. But lets not forget the far right in America are bullys. Shapiro fan base probably looked at Tur as emotinally unstable and critize her for anything, ect.. but then they would happily elected some man who beats up reporters for merely asking him questions as all the people in the press do and as i said, elected his  as Montanas Congressman.

Afterward, Ben Shapiro said that he regretted that he missed the opportunity to say "That's not very ladylike" on air, in response.

There isn't really a good excuse as Ben Shapiro isn't someone who sprang up overnight, Zoey Tur should have researched him a bit and thus expected him to do that and have a response prepared.   

When a ciswoman loses it they say "Typical hysterical woman"
If a transwoman flies off the handle, they say "Typical aggressive man". 

We've dedicated thousands of text characters here on a tiny little man who makes his living off feeding the trolls with vile anger and ignorant hatred, all disguised as as intellectual prowess. Trollboy is a complete and total enigma to me and hardly  worthy of my consideration. He "is" what the expession "Don't feed the trolls" was penned for. I can see right wing hater forums talking about this piece of feces in a suit, but why are we? Why do we let filth like this rent space in our heads?

Quote from: Jessica Lynne on August 12, 2017, 12:48:17 PM
We've dedicated thousands of text characters here on a tiny little man who makes his living off feeding the trolls with vile anger and ignorant hatred, all disguised as as intellectual prowess. Trollboy is a complete and total enigma to me and hardly  worthy of my consideration. He "is" what the expession "Don't feed the trolls" was penned for. I can see right wing hater forums talking about this piece of feces in a suit, but why are we? Why do we let filth like this rent space in our heads?

You're right. I guess this transpired.  But this is the thing that has gotten me rilled up. In 2007, there was no such thing as a troll. They were called another name, sadist.  Back before the elections of Obama and Trump, before facebook truly hit off and before people in power started to pander to a specific group (cough cough ) to demonize the other side there was never a time when people proudly admitted to being ignorant.  It isnt just Shapiro, there is a new and bizarre trend that the ''unpopular'' (and high counter factual) opinion should be heard. Years ago when scientists said something was happening, and there was a consensus,  politicians didnt pander to the stubborn ignorant people. The government would work on, and debate on how to fix the situation. Now, people just debate what is factually there.

Back to the troll/sadist thing it is true, and more specifcally on the right.  People like Shapiro and his supporters who get off on provoking other people having an adult conversation. Its not just this trans things, its like health care. Their health care plan is ''lazy moochers, you want health care try getting a job''... to a single mother working 40 hours and not even getting 10$ an hour. People on the right want to abolish the EPA, along time ago the right (Nixon) faught agaisnt people drinking led-water, now the alt-right is fine with it as long as it makes Al Gore cry. Or just like how you have people out there intentionally modifying their trucks to produce more air polution. The American right is not the American lefts opposition , they are their crazy ex-girlfriend. Their only job these days is to make leftys freak and troll them. Like taking ak-47s to mcdonalds, taking a snow ball into congress or having the president tweet that their is a ban on trans people in the military. Trump doesnt care who serves in the military as long as it isnt him. There is no reasoning behind it other to see the heads of the non-right explode. Even Sarah Palin summed up the rights purpose last year when she said of liberals ''Its really funny to see their splody heads keep sploding''. Again, they have no facts to back their case up they just want to troll us. They do something wrong or say somethign wrong and they call us snowflakes. Basically they do whatever they can to try and make liberals or even moderates tear up.  I only had to dig about Ben Shaprio more when we had a member here say they like them and agree with them.

But I get your point Jessica. You are always a voice of reason <3

Quote from: JMJW on August 12, 2017, 12:27:33 PM
Afterward, Ben Shapiro said that he regretted that he missed the opportunity to say "That's not very ladylike" on air, in response.

There isn't really a good excuse as Ben Shapiro isn't someone who sprang up overnight, Zoey Tur should have researched him a bit and thus expected him to do that and have a response prepared.   

When a ciswoman loses it they say "Typical hysterical woman"
If a transwoman flies off the handle, they say "Typical aggressive man".

There is only one reason Ben didnt say that. Fear. He was stunned that someone had called him out to such a extreme extent. Ben froze as most bullies/cowards do when they get into a situation they know they cant win. Again, see my post just above his mid set isnt some conservative or traditional mind set. It is just him wanting to troll people.

Coward is all he is. Also sexist, since when should a woman ever have to put up with that non-sense.

Quote from: FTMax on August 12, 2017, 09:45:32 AM
I like Ben Shapiro and agree with him on many things. You're rarely, if ever, going to have complete agreement with anyone in life. If it bothers you to associate with people whose views are significantly different from your own, unfriend them.

I think it would be a mistake though. The whole reason the world was so shocked by this last election cycle is that we're all so caught up in our own micro echo chambers where we only have dialogue with people who believe the same things we do. If you shut out people you don't agree with, you lose the opportunity to present your side.

I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?


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Quote from: zamber74 on August 12, 2017, 11:13:57 AM
"An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind"

What she did, was reinforce preconceived stereotypes that we are emotionally unstable and delusional.  I don't like Ben Shapiro, I think his arguments were lousy..  such as every cell in Caitlyn's body is male.  Who says that?  Does Shapiro believe that every chromosome has a gender of it's own, a corresponding genitalia?  I would have called him out on that, it was absolutely foolish to say. 

Fight these people at an intellectual level, she should have put aside her own emotions, and use his hate against him.  That is how you win these sorts of debates, he is not rational, he is not skeptical, or logical, he is coming from a place of emotion.  In this context, he is outraged that Caitlyn changed gender.  Use it against him, rather than be drawn into it.

You can't have a logical argument with someone that has fundamentalist beliefs. You're not going to change their mind. It's just an exercise in frustration.


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Quote from: SailorMars1994 on August 12, 2017, 01:25:28 PM
There is only one reason Ben didnt say that. Fear. He was stunned that someone had called him out to such a extreme extent. Ben froze as most bullies/cowards do when they get into a situation they know they cant win. Again, see my post just above his mid set isnt some conservative or traditional mind set. It is just him wanting to troll people.

Coward is all he is. Also sexist, since when should a woman ever have to put up with that non-sense.

People with fundamentalist beliefs need a world of certainty. It's a tribal thing. What's over the hill from what and who I know is dangerous. Being open to all the possibilities in the universe is too much for them to process and feel secure about the moment and the future. Being human, they seek to reinforce this through association with others like themselves and to attack what's different. It's not about convincing those that are different, but about convincing themselves. Someone that knows has no reason to jump in the pit with anyone.


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Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 08:20:17 AM
You can't have a logical argument with someone that has fundamentalist beliefs. You're not going to change their mind. It's just an exercise in frustration.


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It is not their mind we need to change, it is everyone they are trying to recruit for their cause.  People like Shapiro are trying to manipulate a reaction out of people like us, so that we look like we are the violent ones.  I have seen a trend like this, several times over, and I really wish people on the left would pick up on it.

If you watch what he is doing, he is going out of his way to elicit a reaction.  He calls Zoey sir, he does so because he knows it is going to get a reaction out of her.  He knows that she is eventually going to cave in and act out, and that is what he wants.  He wants her to get aggressive, he wants her to appear to be dangerous.

Read the comments of the multiple instances of the uploaded video, and you can see several instances of people making comments about how we are aggressive, and have nothing to stand on.  It is disheartening. 

If we instead, hold them up to their claims, argue with evidence,  they have nothing to stand on other than their own hatred.  People who see that, will not want anything to do with them.  Also, no one should allow themselves to be manipulated like that in the first place, it is giving other people far too much control. 

This has been their standard approach as of late, do something insulting to a minority, pander to the majority that it is not insulting to, say it is "just the truth" (even though it often is not, it is an opinion) and then show the majority that the response given by those they are manipulating was completely unjustified, and then the manipulating jerks play the victim, and they pretend they are being oppressed.

People fall for it all of the time.

Quote from: zamber74 on August 13, 2017, 09:54:44 AM
It is not their mind we need to change, it is everyone they are trying to recruit for their cause.  People like Shapiro are trying to manipulate a reaction out of people like us, so that we look like we are the violent ones.  I have seen a trend like this, several times over, and I really wish people on the left would pick up on it.

If you watch what he is doing, he is going out of his way to elicit a reaction.  He calls Zoey sir, he does so because he knows it is going to get a reaction out of her.  He knows that she is eventually going to cave in and act out, and that is what he wants.  He wants her to get aggressive, he wants her to appear to be dangerous.

Read the comments of the multiple instances of the uploaded video, and you can see several instances of people making comments about how we are aggressive, and have nothing to stand on.  It is disheartening. 

If we instead, hold them up to their claims, argue with evidence,  they have nothing to stand on other than their own hatred.  People who see that, will not want anything to do with them.  Also, no one should allow themselves to be manipulated like that in the first place, it is giving other people far too much control. 

This has been their standard approach as of late, do something insulting to a minority, pander to the majority that it is not insulting to, say it is "just the truth" (even though it often is not, it is an opinion) and then show the majority that the response given by those they are manipulating was completely unjustified, and then the manipulating jerks play the victim, and they pretend they are being oppressed.

People fall for it all of the time.

Weeeeeeeellllllllll.....I'm gonna disagree with you a little here. I don't necessarily think laying down a pacifistic gauntlet in the face of mass douchery is the tact that is needed. The Jews decided that if they laid low and didnt incite Hitler that he would get bored and go way. Yeah, that worked out real well. Although I'm not a big Zoey fan (mostly for her preachy nature when she doesn't know what she's talking about) in this instance, I'm gonna give her a pass. Shapiro is a provocateur and his ilk would have felt old Zoey got owned if she hadn't of said something. Once she did, the troll backed off because he's a weasel and a coward. Zoey's  threat showed him for what he is and "HE" ended up the one that got owned. His ilk need to know that simply because we're women, were not shrinking violets. I like the, "don't trifle with me little man or you'll be staring at the ceiling" attitude. Those people that are on our side, are already on our side. The others? The opportunistic thugs? They need to know there could be consequences to their actions. So play with me at your peril, troll boy,  roll the bones and see what happens. Because the one that's thinking like Shapiro is going to do what he does, regardless. You're being a demure lady won't influence him. But the thought of having his ass kicked by some ->-bleeped-<- in front of his goofy friends?  Well that just may. The reality is, you're opinion of me is none of my business, so keep it to yourself

Quote from: zamber74 on August 13, 2017, 09:54:44 AM
It is not their mind we need to change, it is everyone they are trying to recruit for their cause.  People like Shapiro are trying to manipulate a reaction out of people like us, so that we look like we are the violent ones.  I have seen a trend like this, several times over, and I really wish people on the left would pick up on it.

If you watch what he is doing, he is going out of his way to elicit a reaction.  He calls Zoey sir, he does so because he knows it is going to get a reaction out of her.  He knows that she is eventually going to cave in and act out, and that is what he wants.  He wants her to get aggressive, he wants her to appear to be dangerous.

Read the comments of the multiple instances of the uploaded video, and you can see several instances of people making comments about how we are aggressive, and have nothing to stand on.  It is disheartening. 

If we instead, hold them up to their claims, argue with evidence,  they have nothing to stand on other than their own hatred.  People who see that, will not want anything to do with them.  Also, no one should allow themselves to be manipulated like that in the first place, it is giving other people far too much control. 

This has been their standard approach as of late, do something insulting to a minority, pander to the majority that it is not insulting to, say it is "just the truth" (even though it often is not, it is an opinion) and then show the majority that the response given by those they are manipulating was completely unjustified, and then the manipulating jerks play the victim, and they pretend they are being oppressed.

People fall for it all of the time.

Still the same thing. Most people that Resa had adulthood have their own beliefs and either they agree with Shapiro or they don't. The best we can do is to come out and increase our visible numbers. Over time, it'll become more normal, like we see with the l and g. The best way of getting them to come around over time is infection. When most people know someone that is trans, things will change. Yelling at people about privilege and politics (right v left propaganda) won't do much and nothing constructive. Jennifer Finney Boylan said that people can't hate you when they know your story. Let's start there.


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Quote from: Jessica Lynne on August 13, 2017, 10:51:17 AM
Weeeeeeeellllllllll.....I'm gonna disagree with you a little here. I don't necessarily think laying down a pacifistic gauntlet in the face of mass douchery is the tact that is needed. The Jews decided that if they laid low and didnt incite Hitler that he would get bored and go way. Yeah, that worked out real well. Although I'm not a big Zoey fan (mostly for her preachy nature when she doesn't know what she's talking about) in this instance, I'm gonna give her a pass. Shapiro is a provocateur and his ilk would have felt old Zoey got owned if she hadn't of said something. Once she did, the troll backed off because he's a weasel and a coward. Zoey's  threat showed him for what he is and "HE" ended up the one that got owned. His ilk need to know that simply because we're women, were not shrinking violets. I like the, "don't trifle with me little man or you'll be staring at the ceiling" attitude. Those people that are on our side, are already on our side. The others? The opportunistic thugs? They need to know there could be consequences to their actions. So play with me at your peril, troll boy,  roll the bones and see what happens. Because the one that's thinking like Shapiro is going to do what he does, regardless. You're being a demure lady won't influence him. But the thought of having his ass kicked by some ->-bleeped-<- in front of his goofy friends?  Well that just may. The reality is, you're opinion of me is none of my business, so keep it to yourself

It's easy to fall into fighting the trolls digitally. It's futile though. In person, it's a different deal. One of my high school teachers said I have a 5'2 Sicilian locked away in my 6'5 body and if someone lays a hand on me, he gets turned loose. Luckily, I get left alone. I don't think Shapiro would physically confront someone. He's not that type. I would worry more about red neck types and other mouth breathers that are basically stupid. There are ways to deal with them too if they come knocking.


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Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 11:14:46 AM
It's easy to fall into fighting the trolls digitally. It's futile though. In person, it's a different deal. One of my high school teachers said I have a 5'2 Sicilian locked away in my 6'5 body and if someone lays a hand on me, he gets turned loose. Luckily, I get left alone. I don't think Shapiro would physically confront someone. He's not that type. I would worry more about red neck types and other mouth breathers that are basically stupid. There are ways to deal with them too if they come knocking.


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I do agree to some extent, Gertrude. But the sad reality is, trolls like Shapiro embolden other nbred reprobates to act out their stupidity. The reality is, each situation calls for it's own remedy. Of course, a peacful remedy is the sentient answer, but not always an option. And of course Shapiro wouldn't get physical, he's little more than a big mouth with feet. My concern is that always playing Ghandi gives the hating cowards carte blanche. People like Zoey at least make them think twice. And I use the word "think" with toungue in cheek".

Ben decided to make it a battle of words. As I am sure after looking at her history, Zoey should have had equal or better skill in this area and limited the battle to that. Much like the clip out of the movie Hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsJxIoFu2wo

Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 08:17:36 AM

Quote from: FTMax on August 12, 2017, 09:45:32 AM
I like Ben Shapiro and agree with him on many things. You're rarely, if ever, going to have complete agreement with anyone in life. If it bothers you to associate with people whose views are significantly different from your own, unfriend them.

I think it would be a mistake though. The whole reason the world was so shocked by this last election cycle is that we're all so caught up in our own micro echo chambers where we only have dialogue with people who believe the same things we do. If you shut out people you don't agree with, you lose the opportunity to present your side.

I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

Quote from: Jessica Lynne on August 13, 2017, 11:26:05 AM
I do agree to some extent, Gertrude. But the sad reality is, trolls like Shapiro embolden other nbred reprobates to act out their stupidity. The reality is, each situation calls for it's own remedy. Of course, a peacful remedy is the sentient answer, but not always an option. And of course Shapiro wouldn't get physical, he's little more than a big mouth with feet. My concern is that always playing Ghandi gives the hating cowards carte blanche. People like Zoey at least make them think twice. And I use the word "think" with toungue in cheek".

I call it flexible response. Credit to JFK for the term. I really keep to myself and never start trouble, but I have a switch inside that can get flicked on. Too long a story as to why, but I won't tolerate someone hitting me or otherwise hurt me physically. I won't be a victim nor celebrate that. Since growing to 6'5 from the 9th grade on, it's been a blessing in that way, a curse in other ways being trans.


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Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

I'm not the eristic type. The I try to prove through argument, the better I feel about myself. I seem to recall billy Joel having a song about that...


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Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 02:16:39 PM

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

I'm not the eristic type. The I try to prove through argument, the better I feel about myself. I seem to recall billy Joel having a song about that...


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The fact that I wrote "dialogue" and you read "argument" is probably a part of your problem.

Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 02:14:37 PM
I call it flexible response. Credit to JFK for the term. I really keep to myself and never start trouble, but I have a switch inside that can get flicked on. Too long a story as to why, but I won't tolerate someone hitting me or otherwise hurt me physically. I won't be a victim nor celebrate that. Since growing to 6'5 from the 9th grade on, it's been a blessing in that way, a curse in other ways being trans.


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Size in and of itself can be a blessing. But it's no guarantee of protection against an ignorant perspective that uses violence and hate to hammer home a point. I am concerned about the woman that's incapable of protecting herself for whatever reason. I don't feel the need to play heroine or martyr for any purpose and do agree with a flight not fight tact. But I must say I  do appreciate women like Zoey that won't continually attempt rationalization with an irrational mind. Should push come to shove and no valid recourse be available, I tend to default more towards Zoeys remedy as opposed to the continued attempt to appease where it clearly isn't possible. Looks like we're on the same page here, Gertrude.

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

Yes and no. I have spend countless hours, years even trying to get people to understand and chose not to. They would tell me that if i was trans I would have had these feelings as a kid, I did (but not everyone who is trans does), then i tell them i did only to be told that if it was true they would see signs. Now, if these are family members who I didnt see often in my life really, then how do I change their minds when they use that as their block. Or how about people who once they find out I am on Estrogen and explain how it has mellowed me out mentally and is making nice changes to my body, all they want to talk about is how my voice (used to be) on the lower side or how i still have stubble. Or the family that tells it is just due to autism or due to some abuse. My thing is, they will go out of their way to find anything to back themselves up to explain to me that I am just an idiot how doesnt understand my own feelings. Ben Shapiro is the same way. He doesnt care about peoples lives or expericnes, he cares only about pushing his agenda. He is a troll. You say that you like and even agree with Ben Shapiro on things, not exactly sure what  as all he does is troll people. I also, as you can tell refuse to give anyone the time of day if they dont respect who I am. You may want to waste your time on people who think or scream that you are nothing more then a mentally ill woman who is deluded by their sense of ''reality'', but we all no that isnt true. You are a man simply born in the wrong body. Just as I am a woman who was born in the wrong body. The people who scream the most will not change their minds. Out of all the people who tried to shame me, guilt me or mock me either into staying as some male or going back to beign some male, out of all of them only one has stayed in my life as of August 13th 2017. The rest, gone. Not because of me, but because of themselves.

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on August 13, 2017, 08:26:47 PM

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

Yes and no. I have spend countless hours, years even trying to get people to understand and chose not to. They would tell me that if i was trans I would have had these feelings as a kid, I did (but not everyone who is trans does), then i tell them i did only to be told that if it was true they would see signs. Now, if these are family members who I didnt see often in my life really, then how do I change their minds when they use that as their block. Or how about people who once they find out I am on Estrogen and explain how it has mellowed me out mentally and is making nice changes to my body, all they want to talk about is how my voice (used to be) on the lower side or how i still have stubble. Or the family that tells it is just due to autism or due to some abuse. My thing is, they will go out of their way to find anything to back themselves up to explain to me that I am just an idiot how doesnt understand my own feelings. Ben Shapiro is the same way. He doesnt care about peoples lives or expericnes, he cares only about pushing his agenda. He is a troll. You say that you like and even agree with Ben Shapiro on things, not exactly sure what  as all he does is troll people. I also, as you can tell refuse to give anyone the time of day if they dont respect who I am. You may want to waste your time on people who think or scream that you are nothing more then a mentally ill woman who is deluded by their sense of ''reality'', but we all no that isnt true. You are a man simply born in the wrong body. Just as I am a woman who was born in the wrong body. The people who scream the most will not change their minds. Out of all the people who tried to shame me, guilt me or mock me either into staying as some male or going back to beign some male, out of all of them only one has stayed in my life as of August 13th 2017. The rest, gone. Not because of me, but because of themselves.

I am talking about the original subjects of your post, not every person in your life you've ever talked to.

If you did any research into what all Ben Shapiro talks about beyond his opinions on trans people, you would know he is not a troll. There are three things that I outright disagree with him on, and those are his stances on trans people, climate change, and Israel, respectively. We share views on healthcare, taxation, economics, personal responsibility, and limited government, among other things. It is possible to see value in what people bring to the table as a whole without agreeing with every idea they've ever espoused.

As far as THIS issue goes, he doesn't cite his sources and makes insane statements like transgender people having a 40% suicide rate which transition doesn't change. According to Ben, almost half of us here are going to kill ourselves! And instead of debating people actually qualified in it, or hell, any kind of educated trans activist, he's rather pick on easily triggered and confounded Gender Studies students at University talks where he as the speaker has the inherent advantage. That is trolling.

Quote from: JMJW on August 14, 2017, 07:24:32 AM
As far as THIS issue goes, he doesn't cite his sources and makes insane statements like transgender people having a 40% suicide rate which transition doesn't change. According to Ben, almost half of us here are going to kill ourselves! And instead of debating people actually qualified in it, or hell, any kind of educated trans activist, he's rather pick on easily triggered and confounded Gender Studies students at University talks where he as the speaker has the inherent advantage. That is trolling.

This I agree with 100%. Also FTMax i see you point about a wide spectrum of beleifs. However, if he lies so badly about trans people , what makes you think he is telling the truth about anything else he says. Even one intentional lie, especially on this magnitude is a deal breaker He is a troll.

@FTMax. Koolaid drinkers are rather self identifying. Shapiro is certainly of that ilk. It's pointless to engage these types of people because they, A. Have an agenda  or B. Have made up their minds and have no intention of being confused by facts.

I had some people on social media posting this and some other anti-trans garbage while trying to claim logic, anthropology, and science are on their side when it so clearly isn't. I've taken the opportunity as a challenge to further educate myself and Everytime I see a post from friends and family I join the fray and try to be as informative and education as possible. At first. I'm not even out publicly yet so it's been a little weird advocating so heavily. I'm pretty sure at this rate I'm going to out myself just with my vocal support of the community.

Quote from: Rambler on August 14, 2017, 12:47:57 PM
I had some people on social media posting this and some other anti-trans garbage while trying to claim logic, anthropology, and science are on their side when it so clearly isn't. I've taken the opportunity as a challenge to further educate myself and Everytime I see a post from friends and family I join the fray and try to be as informative and education as possible. At first. I'm not even out publicly yet so it's been a little weird advocating so heavily. I'm pretty sure at this rate I'm going to out myself just with my vocal support of the community.

Probably. Around 2013 and 2014 , being the years i began my transition and then, finally doing so, I started to do the same thing. I was still pretending to be some country man, but i knew that mask would go. I went from a ''hard'' right winger to the center-left, where my true beleifs were. I also started to seek out in favour of LGBT rights very very openly and debated people who held out fashioned beleifs. The this Ashley of 2017 is proud of the Ashley who was still wearing a mask in 2013 who what she did... not so proud of the Ashley from 2010 tho.

But yes, when you become vocal, espeiaclly when you were super silent or part of the problem at one point, you will turn heads.

Quote from: Rambler on August 14, 2017, 12:47:57 PM
I had some people on social media posting this and some other anti-trans garbage while trying to claim logic, anthropology, and science are on their side when it so clearly isn't. I've taken the opportunity as a challenge to further educate myself and Everytime I see a post from friends and family I join the fray and try to be as informative and education as possible. At first. I'm not even out publicly yet so it's been a little weird advocating so heavily. I'm pretty sure at this rate I'm going to out myself just with my vocal support of the community.

Congratulations......you're real. Fight for your future. I found myself curiously doing the same thing as a precursor to outing myself. It seems to bubble out of you like a wellspring as a preparation. Be prepared to surprise yourself. You think this thing is something you logically control. I'm here to attest that logic plays no part. In fact, it becomes the enemy. Good luck.
..

Not just these things but as I said before, not everyone with an opinion should be given equal ground. Look at what is happening in Virginia. this is what happens when you normalize evil and hate

I too will always stand in our defense and point the public away from junk science to real science.

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 03:29:24 PM
I'm not the eristic type. The I try to prove through argument, the better I feel about myself. I seem to recall billy Joel having a song about that...


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The fact that I wrote "dialogue" and you read "argument" is probably a part of your problem.

It's arguing, at least from most of what read on the internet. People just standing in concrete with their POV. You may call it dialogue, I call it pissing in the wind.


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