Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Good Sunday morning guys and dolls.

I've always had a love/hate relationship withy my breasts. I hate them because I'm not female. And yet...
they are gorgeous.
I hate them so much I shower in my underwear.
Yet whenever I had my shirt off with a partner, I became this sexy woman whose partner was enjoying the beauty of my breasts. If my shirt was on, I was myself during sex. If it was off, I was transformed into a beautiful seductress.
And yes, they make me feel beautiful. But... I am not a woman. So they are incongruent and I hate them. I want to take a knife and slice them to pieces, whether I survive or not.

What is your relationship to your breasts? How do you feel about them?

I want to hear from everybody - men and women, androgynes - anyone who has ever had breasts or wanted them.

Hey Nero,

I feel for the pain you are experiencing about your breasts. And I have felt some of the same things you feel.

I sometimes wish we could just be people, not males or females, but we have these pronouns in our language that carry a ton of expectations and privleges and duties with them.

So what happens when a person has certain pronouns/expectations/and privleges assingned to them and their bodies do not match up with their pronouns? Even worse, their minds don't always/completely match up with the pronouns?

It's more than a love/hate relationship with yourself. It is an existence of seeing others who for some reason had "the right genetics" get to take off their shirt at the pool when you sit there in the sun with a stupid heavy shirt on sweating like a dog. It is watching girls wear their bikinis at the pool and knowing that you look as good as they do but if you wear that article of clothing you will be put squarely on someones "nut radar".

You don't know what to do because you mostly have the body of a woman, but your face is too male to just don women's clothes and go out as a female.

Perhaps worst of all when you go out in public trying to conceal things, and live in the role you were assigned, ( i.e, be a good boy like everyone expects) you can get "slammed anyway", people can pick up on the fact that you are insecure and hiding things and some misinterpret that you are taking hormones to prepare for a sex change. As I have made very clear in other posts, I totally respect a transpersons right to become what makes them happy. But there is no comparison at all between a person who was completely male/female, changing their bodies by will and a person who was never really male/female just trying to cope with the mess of it all. It isn't fair for people to call someone like me trans when I didn't alter my body in any way, and any changes I make are just an attempt to figure out  whether I am a man or a woman. In my opinion everyone should be left alone, but transpeople are willing to take a little pain if they need to, to reach their goal. On the other hand I had no choice in the matter at all, but suffer the same retributions that a transperson goes through, though I didn't go down this path willingly. Yah, I understand your pain, it's enough to make you wanna blow your own friggin head off.

There are a LOT of really nice people out there, but when things go wrong;

Men see me as someone who isn't trying to be manly and punish me to the fullest extent of the "male codes", ie marginalization. I was completely ignored by someone who I see regularly, just yesterday. It was a cold day and he came into the theatre where my kids were performing and I saw him and said "get out of the cold dude". He completely ignored me, didn't look at me, but talked to the next guy sitting 10 feet away from me. It's like I am invisible, and not human because I am different.   

On the other hand if you attempt to be one of the girls, you are percieved as an interloper on their gender and an intruder. I have tried to make friends with  the gals, but even though I have the same hormones that they do running through my veins, acting on the same target tissues as they do, I will never be one of them in some of their eyes.

People who don't have these hormonal problems go through life with this badge of courage for their big breasts (women) or deep voices and cut bodies (men) like they did something special

In reality, they are nothing but individuals who were fortunate enough to have the hormones in their bodies match up with the social role they were assigned to. In return, someone who will never fit in without surgery and taking medication for the rest of my life to "appear normal", gets incorrectly branded as a "transperson", a weirdo, or a defect. Again, the branding is done by people who did nothing to look normal, just as I have done nothing to look "different"

Is it these realities that cause you so much pain? It is for me.

Please first and foremost consider yourself HUMAN, and realize that there is a responsibility/gift placed on you that most people don't have to deal with. That is the responsability of deciding whether you will be male or female (and I am assuming here that you are intersexed because you answered me in another post from that forum) Most people just come out as one or another, but some of of actually have to decide which one we are.

I pray for your peace of mind because as I said I understand the conflict.

M

Again, I have NO ill feelings about transpeople, in fact I understand your pain of transition, I DO have ill feeling about being misunderstood and mislabled. I totally respect anyone who is willing to take responsibility for the way they feel and then pay the price whatever it may be to find happiness. Hope that's clear to my ts sisters and brothers.

Hi Nero,

     I'm sorry.  I don't have breasts.  I used to have times when I felt like I was missing them because I felt female, but now I'm not so confused anymore.  I realize that if I had been born a female gender variant, then I would not want them.  I guess being born cisgendered, they'd be okay, but I don't think I want to be cisgendered.  I like me being a gender variant.

     No breasts = okay for me.

    You know what's messed up, though?  Now that I am educated in Gender Issues, I don't like looking at other people's breasts so much even though they really look good on some people.  But, sometimes I wonder if the person might be gender variant.  If the person is not happy with their gender, then the breasts take on a meaning other than "Those are nice".  It's like I can't enjoy them because I understand what a burden they may be for the person who has them.
    For example, if we ever met and you hadn't gone through treatment, I would know what the breasts mean to you and so they would bother me too.


Rebis

aside from going into trans stuff... ive had breasts of some form since my early teens, from bee stings to thier current perky beauty. im really proud of mine, they make me feel pretty, and mature, and good about myself.
i greatly dislike them when i go jogging...
they are an attractive feature, which attracts boys, which makes me happy.
they annoy me when i bump them, but i feel sexy just having them on my chest, i see them as something decidedly girly, with relation to me. as female a symbol as any. and aside from thier impracticality. they empower and give me confidence in my self image :)
R :police:

Hi Michelle.

No, I'm not intersexed. But I understand it would be very hard to be born with an incongruent body. I am sorry for your pain.

Quote from: Michelle F on December 02, 2007, 10:49:50 AM
Hey Nero,

I feel for the pain you are experiencing about your breasts. And I have felt some of the same things you feel.

I sometimes wish we could just be people, not males or females, but we have these pronouns in our language that carry a ton of expectations and privleges and duties with them.

So what happens when a person has certain pronouns/expectations/and privleges assingned to them and their bodies do not match up with their pronouns? Even worse, their minds don't always/completely match up with the pronouns?

It's more than a love/hate relationship with yourself. It is an existence of seeing others who for some reason had "the right genetics" get to take off their shirt at the pool when you sit there in the sun with a stupid heavy shirt on sweating like a dog. It is watching girls wear their bikinis at the pool and knowing that you look as good as they do but if you wear that article of clothing you will be put squarely on someones "nut radar".

You don't know what to do because you mostly have the body of a woman, but your face is too male to just don women's clothes and go out as a female.

Perhaps worst of all when you go out in public trying to conceal things, and live in the role you were assigned, ( i.e, be a good boy like everyone expects) you can get "slammed anyway", people can pick up on the fact that you are insecure and hiding things and some misinterpret that you are taking hormones to prepare for a sex change. As I have made very clear in other posts, I totally respect a transpersons right to become what makes them happy. But there is no comparison at all between a person who was completely male/female, changing their bodies by will and a person who was never really male/female just trying to cope with the mess of it all. It isn't fair for people to call someone like me trans when I didn't alter my body in any way, and any changes I make are just an attempt to figure out  whether I am a man or a woman. In my opinion everyone should be left alone, but transpeople are willing to take a little pain if they need to, to reach their goal. On the other hand I had no choice in the matter at all, but suffer the same retributions that a transperson goes through, though I didn't go down this path willingly. Yah, I understand your pain, it's enough to make you wanna blow your own friggin head off.

There are a LOT of really nice people out there, but when things go wrong;

Men see me as someone who isn't trying to be manly and punish me to the fullest extent of the "male codes", ie marginalization. I was completely ignored by someone who I see regularly, just yesterday. It was a cold day and he came into the theatre where my kids were performing and I saw him and said "get out of the cold dude". He completely ignored me, didn't look at me, but talked to the next guy sitting 10 feet away from me. It's like I am invisible, and not human because I am different.   

On the other hand if you attempt to be one of the girls, you are percieved as an interloper on their gender and an intruder. I have tried to make friends with  the gals, but even though I have the same hormones that they do running through my veins, acting on the same target tissues as they do, I will never be one of them in some of their eyes.

People who don't have these hormonal problems go through life with this badge of courage for their big breasts (women) or deep voices and cut bodies (men) like they did something special

In reality, they are nothing but individuals who were fortunate enough to have the hormones in their bodies match up with the social role they were assigned to. In return, someone who will never fit in without surgery and taking medication for the rest of my life to "appear normal", gets incorrectly branded as a "transperson", a weirdo, or a defect. Again, the branding is done by people who did nothing to look normal, just as I have done nothing to look "different"

Is it these realities that cause you so much pain? It is for me.

Please first and foremost consider yourself HUMAN, and realize that there is a responsibility/gift placed on you that most people don't have to deal with. That is the responsability of deciding whether you will be male or female (and I am assuming here that you are intersexed because you answered me in another post from that forum) Most people just come out as one or another, but some of of actually have to decide which one we are.

I pray for your peace of mind because as I said I understand the conflict.

M

Again, I have NO ill feelings about transpeople, in fact I understand your pain of transition, I DO have ill feeling about being misunderstood and mislabled. I totally respect anyone who is willing to take responsibility for the way they feel and then pay the price whatever it may be to find happiness. Hope that's clear to my ts sisters and brothers.

I understand what you are going through, Nero.  I used to feel the same way when *that thing* was attached to my body.  I used to shower in my underwear as well.

Back to the topic of the thread.  Well, I love my breasts now that I have them.  Before I had breast augmentation, my breasts were not so big (which was the main reason that I had a BA to begin with), so basically there was no relationship. 

Nowadays is different.  I love them and even though some people on this site have said that breasts become insensitive after a BA, in my case, that is not true.  They are very sensitive to the touch.  Life has changed so much in the last year :).  Before I used to hate my body with all my might.  I would never stand in front of a mirror naked.  Now, it is the opposite, I want to see myself naked all the time.  I guess it is a form of validation of some sort.  Like Madonna says in one of her songs "I wanna run naked in a rainstorm"  ;D

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Rachael on December 02, 2007, 11:11:27 AM
aside from going into trans stuff... ive had breasts of some form since my early teens, from bee stings to thier current perky beauty. im really proud of mine, they make me feel pretty, and mature, and good about myself.
i greatly dislike them when i go jogging...
they are an attractive feature, which attracts boys, which makes me happy.
they annoy me when i bump them, but i feel sexy just having them on my chest, i see them as something decidedly girly, with relation to me. as female a symbol as any. and aside from thier impracticality. they empower and give me confidence in my self image :)
R :police:

Wow, I wish they did that for me. But, yes they are very powerful. I mean just removing my shirt, I looked and felt so womanlyand sexy.
And it was always a turn on, even though it was so contrary to my identity. I often wished it wasn't - that I didn't have this problem with being male inside. I wished and tried to be a normal girl. But it never worked, and everyone even strangers noticed it.

I wish I didn't have them. =/

Socially, I despise them. I can't change backstage with the other male actors because I wear a binder. I can't go swimming. I feel terrible when intimate with someone who knows they're there because, frankly, I have a nice rack and people have trouble ignoring that fact. DX

Really, I identify strongly with the male body and the fact that my own body doesn't match up is distressing.

Sexually, I can't enjoy them, as much as my body is hardwired to do so. They're sensitive and it feels excellent when someone pays them special attention but the fact that I can physically enjoy it actually horrifies me and I tend to withdraw from my body as much as possible.

I sleep with my binder on so that when I wake up I can have the illusion for 10 seconds that they aren't there.

However, in fact very strangely, the more secure I become in my identity as a man, the less issues with my body I have. I don't pass worth a damn but I'm still socially accepted as male by my friends and cast members and every day I feel like I can say with a little more conviction "I am a man, breasts or no." and so I kind of make a deal with my body - You comply as much as you reasonably can and I'll take care of you and won't hurt you.

Quote from: Nero on December 02, 2007, 10:10:02 AM
What is your relationship to your breasts? How do you feel about them?

i just absolutely love them. i know that may sound auto... something or other, but it is so. they combine so well with my personality, that it's not like they're badges of pride but more as symbols of my inner reality.

i can't tell you how stupid that sentence i just wrote sounds to me, but, you asked.

-ell

I began my transition in 2002, when I was 51 years old.  Prior to that I had male breasts.  My nipples and the surrounding area were quite sensitive to touch, including a partner's stimulation (I'll not get overly descriptive here).  The sensations went to my pubic area and caused quite a commotion there.

I liked whatever breasts I had then.

Now I have 46C breasts and I get on fine with them.  I do my self-checks and I am gentle with myself when I put a brassiere on.  I am 56 and I have the breasts of a much younger woman.  They are a part of this body of mine and just as all of its other parts, I care for them and make sure all is well.  I don't hide my breasts but I don't base my life on having them.

I hope that I have made sense here.

Wing Walker

Maybe it's because I don't really have much yet (barely A's at this point), but I really don't think about them all that much beyond wishing they'd develop a bit more. I'm mostly just embarassed about what ISN'T there, more than thinking about what is.

~Kate~

Hi having a shower with your underwear on is certainly not a common occupation. Like having a shower with your umbrella deployed. "Hee, hee, hee". Forgive me. I do know what you girls are speaking about. It's just that I have been in a silly giggly mood for the past hour.

Cindy

I like them, but I wish they were bigger.  They can still be sensitive and pleasurable to the touch though.  I will probably get a BA at some point, but until then, I accept them for their pubescent innocence.   :angel:

Quote from: Kate on December 02, 2007, 03:58:09 PM
Maybe it's because I don't really have much yet (barely A's at this point), but I really don't think about them all that much beyond wishing they'd develop a bit more. I'm mostly just embarassed about what ISN'T there, more than thinking about what is.

~Kate~

are you being proactive about augmenting your HRT by bolstering your body's natural production of Human Growth Hormone? 

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 08:21:57 PM
are you being proactive about augmenting your HRT by bolstering your body's natural production of Human Growth Hormone? 

Nah, I'm a simple girl! I'm too scared of messing up a good thing to put anything experimental in my body. The ONLY complaint I have are my breasts, but I don't want anything more than B's anyway, sooooooo... if it takes years to reach maximum development anyway, I might actually be on target. They ARE growing, just slowly now.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on December 02, 2007, 09:20:26 PM

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 08:21:57 PM
are you being proactive about augmenting your HRT by bolstering your body's natural production of Human Growth Hormone? 

Nah, I'm a simple girl! I'm too scared of messing up a good thing to put anything experimental in my body. The ONLY complaint I have are my breasts, but I don't want anything more than B's anyway, sooooooo... if it takes years to reach maximum development anyway, I might actually be on target. They ARE growing, just slowly now.

~Kate~

Aw, yeah, sure ya are. i'm not talking about taking HGH. what i've heard, however, is that HGH production can often decline around the age of 40, causing slower than normal growth rates for Trans women, and reduced rates of antibodies, etc., etc.

One of the best ways to augment normal HGH production within the pituitary, is to take your regular multivitamins at night, before bed. also, i take collagen in the evening, which has a number of important amino acids, which are also needed for HGH production. that's it! now, does that sound like witchcraft?

-elphaba

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 09:45:31 PM
One of the best ways to augment normal HGH production within the pituitary, is to take your regular multivitamins at night, before bed. also, i take collagen in the evening, which has a number of important amino acids, which are also needed for HGH production. that's it!

I'm actually afraid of multivitamens too, lol, as I'd rather try and get what I need by eating Good Stuff ;)

HRT regimens mess with so many things in the body, like potassium, that I don't wanna do anything else artificial if I don't have too.

Plus, in the end, I just look at end results. I needed to be able to live as Kate. I did a simple HRT program. And miracle of miracles, I can just roll out of bed now, all 6'2" of thinned hair me, and everyone "miss's" me. It's an impossibility, and yet... it's happened. SO, I feel like I'm walking on glass anymore, terrified of breaking this magic spell I'm living in. Whatever I did apparently got me here, so... I'm just gonna keep doing what I've been doing and enjoy this fairytale ;)

Quote
now, does that sound like witchcraft?

Now witchcraft I WILL do ;)

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on December 02, 2007, 10:06:38 PM
HRT regimens mess with so many things in the body, like potassium, that I don't wanna do anything else artificial if I don't have too.

Plus, in the end, I just look at end results. I needed to be able to live as Kate. I did a simple HRT program. And miracle of miracles, I can just roll out of bed now, all 6'2" of thinned hair me, and everyone "miss's" me.

~Kate~
[/quote]

did ya get "miss"ed when you were four months on HRT?  i still get totally sirred   :(

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 10:33:06 PM
did ya get "miss"ed when you were four months on HRT?  i still get totally sirred   :(

Nope. Give it time. At four months I was absolutely *desperate* to pass.

I had two fluke "maam's" around that time, but that was it. I was sirred for the first 4 months or so, then people refused to use ANY gendered pronouns from months 4-8 or so, then the miss's started, as well as the totally confused looks when I'd say, "Hi, I'm [male name]".

And again, I DON'T look that convincing, at least not to my eyes. A few members here have met me now, and I'm sure they think I'm deluded, lol. But... it works ;)

Patience, young one, patience...

~Kate~

Your relationship with "your" breasts

Never saw them as "mine" bro.  they were there. that was it.  I binded all the time, day & nite.  couldnt look at them.  nobody could touch them.  they didnt feel right.  I'm happy they are gone.

Rebis Hefner from the Pigboy mansion:

        "Okay Ladies.  I think we've disussed your relationship with your breats quite enough.  *puff*  *puff*  I think it's time we discuss my relationship with your breasts.  *puff*"




:P

Hi Kate
I just believe that once you believe what you are then you become that person, and that also has an effect on how people see you.

Cindy

Quote from: Rebis on December 02, 2007, 10:55:18 PM
Rebis Hefner from the Pigboy mansion:

        "Okay Ladies.  I think we've disussed your relationship with your breats quite enough.  *puff*  *puff*  I think it's time we discuss my relationship with your breasts.  *puff*"




:P

Reeb is an absolute genius! All bow before hir and pay homage.... yeah, I know, you'd prefer we pay cash  :laugh:

Your post #2 was truly insightful, I also don't see people in the same way since embarking on my gender journey. The handsome man might not feel at all handsome if she's a woman, the gorgeous woman might not feel at all beautiful if he's really a man.

Nero, sorry you're feeling so much pain about your breasts, I wish we could all trade features, M2Fs with F2Ms. Anybody want the body of a frumpy achy fifty something male? OK, I thought not, oh well.   :P

y2g

Quote from: y2gender on December 03, 2007, 06:32:45 AM
Nero, sorry you're feeling so much pain about your breasts, I wish we could all trade features, M2Fs with F2Ms. Anybody want the body of a frumpy achy fifty something male? OK, I thought not, oh well.   :P

y2g

You never know.  Most people would rather be a frumpy cisgender than a beautiful transgender.  Not that I'm agreeing that you're frumpy.   :)

Quote from: y2gender on December 03, 2007, 06:32:45 AM

Nero, sorry you're feeling so much pain about your breasts, I wish we could all trade features, M2Fs with F2Ms. Anybody want the body of a frumpy achy fifty something male? OK, I thought not, oh well.   :P

y2g

Hmm How's your health?

Quote from: Nero on December 03, 2007, 09:49:35 AM
Hmm How's your health?

LOL

Not too bad, but I have carpel tunnel in both wrists, shoulder issues... :(

y2g

My boobs are not very large.  Large B and they wont grow more because I've already been on mones longer than two years.  But I'm happy as they are very symmetrical.  I'm not a very big girl so a B cup is quite alright for me.  My boobs are my best feature & they are natural.

To Nero,

Now I understand a little more what you were talking about. I understand what you mean abuot showering in your underwear. I am such a doofus about the trans world. I should have caught on quicker.

I hope I didn't take up too much space, and I do hope you move heaven and earth to feel comfortable with yourself.

good luck

M

the relationship with my breasts is quite terrific.  thanks for asking ;)

We never talk together anymore!!! They've become so ... so ... stand-offish, like they think they are better than me. Yet, I still adore them. They have been good friends. I don't understand, quite, what has happened between the three of us. We used to be sooo close!! *sigh*

Whatsa girl to do?

Nichole

I had to wait nearly fifty years to have boobs so I certainly ain't about to part with them. 36B I am only 5' 3" tall.

Cindy

Quote from: Nichole W. on December 03, 2007, 06:20:41 PM
We never talk together anymore!!! They've become so ... so ... stand-offish, like they think they are better than me. Yet, I still adore them. They have been good friends. I don't understand, quite, what has happened between the three of us. We used to be sooo close!! *sigh*

Whatsa girl to do?

Nichole

ROFL  ;D :D  I know the feeling.  Thank you for the laugh! :)

tink :icon_chick:

I don't really think about them much, but hey seem fine. They get in the way sometimes, and men seem to think that I talk form my breasts, but other than that they are okay. I think I'm probably the rare person who doesn't want super huge boobs, and is fine with what ever I get. Then again, I'm a B cup and my underwire is digging into me (damn, I hate bras)... the underwire is starting to dig because they are getting bigger, again. So, I might be bias and I would imagine that if I had no or little growth I probably would think different. Right now, however, they hurt, and sometimes they are so sensitive they feel like they are on fire (in a bad way). So, there's annoying things with growing boobs, as well, but there are benefits as well. I wouldn't change them, they are part of who I am, but I honestly don't think about them much because I'm so used to them. When I first started growing, I used to give weekly boob updates and get people to feel me up because I was so excited. :D

On another story, I actually am going to be in a book talking about my breast, my relation to them, and my womanhood. And yes, I'm half-naked in the photos showing my boobs. And no, I won't be posting those pictures (I can't until the book is published, which is probably in a year).

I told the author about my TS story and she liked it. She said that I must make sure that I add the line "I went to hell and back for these boobs." That's something I said during the interview, and she loves it. I was refering to my anti-trans therapy, having family hate me for transitioning, and etc... so, basically saying that transitioning isn't easy.

I hate 'em. Always have.  As for what they feel about me, I'm guessing lately they aren't too happy 'cause i strap them down.  When they first appeared I would sleep with a sports bra on... hoping that they would stay out of the way.

But they didn't... they are in the way, make me slouch and have to put on a binder every day to try and make them disappear.  Can't wear the clothes I'm most comfortable in 'cause it isn't comfortable with them.  I expect to see a flat chest when i look in the mirror and instead I've got those lumps.  They're like tumors.  Useless, painful, and in the way.

The only purpose I see for them would be to feed a baby... and I don't want kids.  So there is no reason for them to be there.

Geeee Give me the boobs and I'll have a half dozen kids to go with that order. I had 11 kids go under my roof through the years and loved every moment of it.

Cindy

Quote from: gothique11 on December 04, 2007, 12:01:51 AM
I don't really think about them much, but hey seem fine. They get in the way sometimes, and men seem to think that I talk form my breasts, but other than that they are okay. I think I'm probably the rare person who doesn't want super huge boobs, and is fine with what ever I get. Then again, I'm a B cup and my underwire is digging into me (damn, I hate bras)... the underwire is starting to dig because they are getting bigger, again. So, I might be bias and I would imagine that if I had no or little growth I probably would think different. Right now, however, they hurt, and sometimes they are so sensitive they feel like they are on fire (in a bad way). So, there's annoying things with growing boobs, as well, but there are benefits as well. I wouldn't change them, they are part of who I am, but I honestly don't think about them much because I'm so used to them. When I first started growing, I used to give weekly boob updates and get people to feel me up because I was so excited. :D

On another story, I actually am going to be in a book talking about my breast, my relation to them, and my womanhood. And yes, I'm half-naked in the photos showing my boobs. And no, I won't be posting those pictures (I can't until the book is published, which is probably in a year).

I told the author about my TS story and she liked it. She said that I must make sure that I add the line "I went to hell and back for these boobs." That's something I said during the interview, and she loves it. I was refering to my anti-trans therapy, having family hate me for transitioning, and etc... so, basically saying that transitioning isn't easy.

Well, they must mean a lot to women to 'go to hell and back for them'. That book sounds really cool.

I don't have much of a relationship with my current pubescent looking mogul mounds I have on my chest now. I have a strong working relationship though with the breasts I must have had in a former life. They haunt me from time to time making me feel like I'm missing out on something or like I've lost my best friend. It's sorta like the  phantom limb sensation theory that amputees feel sometimes. Even though the part is gone, they can still feel the limb and have sensations like warm, cold or tingly, even pain.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=phantom+limb+sensation&btnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=phantom+limb+sensation&btnG=Search)

Best of luck to anyone who wants to change how they feel about themselves.

LivingInGrey

I take good care of them.  Powder them, moisturize them, give them special treatment.  I'm quite happy with them.  My mate likes them and cant keep his hands off them! >:D

Well I went to hell and back for my boobs, I had my first breast augmentation before my SRS 20years ago, they where a bit on the small side, I had another BA a few years ago, I adore my new DD breasts, much bigger and better, they get a lot of male attention which makes me very happy, I wear low cut dresses which a one time I could only dream about, my cleavage makes me feel very womanly, my boobs have done a lot for my confidence, btw Chris you look sooo handsome, what boobs do for a woman, the same goes for what muscles do for a man, you look so strong, handsome and muscular, everything a woman wants in a man, sometimes I flirt with my boobs when men speak and stare at them, we both love it LOL!
P

Quote from: Yvonne on December 04, 2007, 05:24:12 PM
  My mate likes them and cant keep his hands off them! >:D

Have you considered chopping his hands off?  I'm seriously thinking about that!  It may not work but it is a thought!  >:D ;D  ;)

tink :icon_chick:

Re: Your relationship with your breasts

I haven't got any! but not through want of trying to get them......I'm on the surgeons list!

Same here, I don't see them as mine because theyre not.  I shower in the dark and keep my eyes clothes when I change...

"With the right set of mammaries you could rule this planet."

I love them.  Deb hates them.

Quote from: Milo on December 02, 2007, 02:54:19 PM
and so I kind of make a deal with my body - You comply as much as you reasonably can and I'll take care of you and won't hurt you.

Yeah I used to punch them but this is a good idea.

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 07, 2007, 09:48:28 AM
"With the right set of mammaries you could rule this planet."

I love them.  Deb hates them.

Who's Deb?

Quote from: Berliegh on December 08, 2007, 01:49:59 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 07, 2007, 09:48:28 AM
"With the right set of mammaries you could rule this planet."

I love them.  Deb hates them.

Who's Deb?

My to-be-ex-spouse.

I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

 Comfortable with you 'playing woman' in thier eyes, but when you outwoman them somwhere... maybe... i dont know...
After yesterday ive realised how painful breasts can be when slamming into a doorframe at a sprint... >< GUYS think they have it bad? PFT
R :police:

Hi Rachael Ya they are a mite sensitive huh. Feels funny when you are carrying a box up against them.

Cindy

that was the LEAST of my worries BELIVE ME Cindy... :P ive gotten used to that feeling, but thier still bangable, or catchable, and that = wont ever go away :P i seem to be going through a 4th growing phase though at 11 months on hrt... im a healthy b cup, but the tissue underneath seems to be filling out more, less cone, more boob.... i forget what the tanner stages are....
R :police:

My relationship with my breasts...

In short:  they're..... there.

I'm one of the unlucky ones who have very large breasts (my bra size is 44 F) and I do not want them.  Even before my gender concerns creped in, I never wanted breasts this large.  I had to start wearing bras in 3rd grade, by 7th grade I had a D cup.  When I was 13 years old they were building a Hooters at the mall, I was hanging out waiting for my parents to pick me up when the manager came over and asked if I wanted an application.  (Dad wasn't so pleased with that)  When I told the manager I was 13, his eyes about fell out of his head. 

These days, it's similar to as Nero described.  A love/hate relationship.  They HURT me, bras dig into my shoulders, and leave ridges, my back hurts all the time.  As Rachael explained, when you bump into things it hurts, and depending on how close my period is it can be "oh, OW!" to "OMFG !!!"  And the larger you are naturally the more crap I bump into.  Also painful is rolling over on them in bed, owwwie.  Shirts are hard to fit into, button downs? without two bras?  forget it.   They're very saggy, and I'm only 26 years old.  They don't look cute and feminine to me, they look... gross.  I have started taking to wearing two bras, this doesn't do much for the size, but it helps with the *bouncy*.  I hate the bouncy.

On the other side, they FEEL good.  I love having them played with during sex.  For this reason alone I got my nipples peirced in June, and thus far I love that.  It did make me feel slightly better about their appearance, (as silly as that sounds, a little silver bar making me feel better).   I never had the "don't touch" problems... I want them touched. 

People have asked what my ideal would be.  And really, I don't know.  Definitely smaller, but how small?  Gone entirely?  Still there but significantly smaller?  I'm not sure.  It'd be nice to not NEED a bra, but only wear one if I wanted to.  It'd also be nice not to have to deal with the pain.  (Ironically about the pain, since it's constant, I don't really even notice it until it's gone.  Unless it's really bad.  If I actually lift my breasts up there is this incredible feeling of relief.)

So pretty much.

They're there.  They get in the way.  They're painful, but they also can feel quite nice.  But I don't really want em. =/

All in all: Boobs for sale! 

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

Not likely.  Hers are bigger than mine.

Mine have grown on me.

Rebecca

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 09:42:06 AM

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

Not likely.  Hers are bigger than mine.

Still, she may want it clear who wears the breasts in the relationship. :laugh:

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 09:42:06 AM

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

Not likely.  Hers are bigger than mine.

maybe yours are more...pretty. but she's probably most irritated by the fact that you're not a Man anymore. i've been getting that alot from people lately, and they emphasize the word "Man" as though it has suddenly attained some elevated status in society. aw yeah, downgrading one's status to a lower rank than a man, and then not accepting one, on principle, as a genuine female.

Quote from: Alison on December 10, 2007, 04:56:18 AM
My relationship with my breasts...

In short:  they're..... there.

I'm one of the unlucky ones who have very large breasts (my bra size is 44 F) and I do not want them.  Even before my gender concerns creped in, I never wanted breasts this large.  I had to start wearing bras in 3rd grade, by 7th grade I had a D cup.  When I was 13 years old they were building a Hooters at the mall, I was hanging out waiting for my parents to pick me up when the manager came over and asked if I wanted an application.  (Dad wasn't so pleased with that)  When I told the manager I was 13, his eyes about fell out of his head. 

These days, it's similar to as Nero described.  A love/hate relationship.  They HURT me, bras dig into my shoulders, and leave ridges, my back hurts all the time.  As Rachael explained, when you bump into things it hurts, and depending on how close my period is it can be "oh, OW!" to "OMFG !!!"  And the larger you are naturally the more crap I bump into.  Also painful is rolling over on them in bed, owwwie.  Shirts are hard to fit into, button downs? without two bras?  forget it.   They're very saggy, and I'm only 26 years old.  They don't look cute and feminine to me, they look... gross.  I have started taking to wearing two bras, this doesn't do much for the size, but it helps with the *bouncy*.  I hate the bouncy.

On the other side, they FEEL good.  I love having them played with during sex.  For this reason alone I got my nipples peirced in June, and thus far I love that.  It did make me feel slightly better about their appearance, (as silly as that sounds, a little silver bar making me feel better).   I never had the "don't touch" problems... I want them touched. 

People have asked what my ideal would be.  And really, I don't know.  Definitely smaller, but how small?  Gone entirely?  Still there but significantly smaller?  I'm not sure.  It'd be nice to not NEED a bra, but only wear one if I wanted to.  It'd also be nice not to have to deal with the pain.  (Ironically about the pain, since it's constant, I don't really even notice it until it's gone.  Unless it's really bad.  If I actually lift my breasts up there is this incredible feeling of relief.)

So pretty much.

They're there.  They get in the way.  They're painful, but they also can feel quite nice.  But I don't really want em. =/

All in all: Boobs for sale! 

Yep. Exactly. I hate them because I'm a man, dammit and its soooo.... unnatural. BUT The whole sex aspect of them is awesome. It just really feels too good to pass up. So - that's why I have the shirt thing. Shirt on = me. Shirt off = some nameless vixen.

Quote from: ell on December 10, 2007, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 09:42:06 AM

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

Not likely.  Hers are bigger than mine.

maybe yours are more...pretty. but she's probably most irritated by the fact that you're not a Man anymore. i've been getting that alot from people lately, and they emphasize the word "Man" as though it has suddenly attained some elevated status in society. aw yeah, downgrading one's status to a lower rank than a man, and then not accepting one, on principle, as a genuine female.

That's the point.  It's not "suddenly."  This has been the attitude of our society for hundreds of years.  "Women are incomplete men.  It's normal for women to want to be men.  It's pathological for men to want to be women."

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 01:57:29 PM

Quote from: ell on December 10, 2007, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 09:42:06 AM

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

Not likely.  Hers are bigger than mine.

maybe yours are more...pretty. but she's probably most irritated by the fact that you're not a Man anymore. i've been getting that alot from people lately, and they emphasize the word "Man" as though it has suddenly attained some elevated status in society. aw yeah, downgrading one's status to a lower rank than a man, and then not accepting one, on principle, as a genuine female.

That's the point.  It's not "suddenly."  This has been the attitude of our society for hundreds of years.  "Women are incomplete men.  It's normal for women to want to be men.  It's pathological for men to want to be women."

Yep. That's pretty much it. 'Why would any man downgrade himself to become a woman. Because women are clearly the inferior sex.'  ::)
So much of this stuff is so ingrained, cisgenders never notice it.
It

Quote from: Nero on December 10, 2007, 02:19:55 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 01:57:29 PM

Quote from: ell on December 10, 2007, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 10, 2007, 09:42:06 AM

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
I can see why she's going to be your ex spouse. Hon your not the first TS lady that their spouse expressed annoyance over their partners breasts . Seem to be a bit of jealousy there.

Cindy

Not likely.  Hers are bigger than mine.

maybe yours are more...pretty. but she's probably most irritated by the fact that you're not a Man anymore. i've been getting that alot from people lately, and they emphasize the word "Man" as though it has suddenly attained some elevated status in society. aw yeah, downgrading one's status to a lower rank than a man, and then not accepting one, on principle, as a genuine female.

That's the point.  It's not "suddenly."  This has been the attitude of our society for hundreds of years.  "Women are incomplete men.  It's normal for women to want to be men.  It's pathological for men to want to be women."

Yep. That's pretty much it. 'Why would any man downgrade himself to become a woman. Because women are clearly the inferior sex.'  ::)
So much of this stuff is so ingrained, cisgenders never notice it.

Yes! And it all starts to come out, and get verbalized, when they are exposed to people in transition (especially when the breasts start). my boss told me the other day, "You have no shame."

Men are scandalized by the fact that you'd go over to the other side. (Gay men seem deeply offended by it, and have disrespected me the worst, of any group) Women (both straight and gay) have been most accepting. i'm starting to love some of the women at my work for their generosity of spirit and kindness -- things i'd never seen in them before.

-ell

I love my little 36A's. It took me so long to get them. I love to dress them up in pretty bras and I love to go braless in a tight tank top and get "the look". I love wearing a bikini top to the beach and getting tan lines. I love it when they bounce when I run. I do so enjoy it when my wife pays attention to them when we're intimate.

Boobs rock.
I love my boobs. ^_^
-Sarah

Is there anything other than surgery to get boobs? I've found that even after many years on hormones I still haven't got anough to fill a B cup...

Quote from: Berliegh on December 15, 2007, 07:17:23 AM
Is there anything other than surgery to get boobs? I've found that even after many years on hormones I still haven't got anough to fill a B cup...

Yes, vaccum exercising.
Go to: www.extremerestraints.com (a respectable S&M site) they have the acrillic tubes for stretching them out.
With hormones gets dramatic results.
Also, I find phyto-estrogen works better for me.
More expensive (by far) and takes longer, but better results.

Also, consider adding Fenugreek to your diet and supplements.
Fenugreek has been hsed for thousands of years to increase breast size.
It was used by harem girls in the middle east particularly.
I take it with the my other stuff, and so far my methods have had pretty noticable results even in a short time.

No. those vacuum things are harmfull, besides creating mega hickey's on your breasts!!! And have no demonstrable long term effects.
If you really want big nipples (this has been demonstrated), you can you breast pumps used
for getting milks. They don't pull too much and you have to use them often, but your nipples will be bigger after a while. 

Quote from: Keira on December 15, 2007, 06:00:52 PM
No. those vacuum things are harmfull, besides creating mega hickey's on your breasts!!! And have no demonstrable long term effects.
If you really want big nipples (this has been demonstrated), you can you breast pumps used
for getting milks. They don't pull too much and you have to use them often, but your nipples will be bigger after a while. 

Kiera,
you don't like much of anything that is alternative do you?
Do you have any Data to back up your claims or are you just spreading FUD?
Really.
I'm as interested in my safety as the next person, but you havn't quoted a single example of this or Phyto-estrogen that shows that it is dangerous.

If you have evidence, please present it.
-Sarah

Please Sarah, go get the evidence yourself.
I don't keep a research library on file but have read very very extensively
and been member of DIY hormone group on Yahoo for years where
most people started with phyto-estrogens
and said they were useless for the money spent
I too took some, in good quantity for 3 months before ordering the real thing.
The testimonials of people who tried both in there are multiple.

In the Yahoo DIY group your
you can get some of those sources by searching through the archive.
And the testimonials I talked about too.

BTW,
I've got a job, and 2 grad courses.
Its a miracle I even post here.
If you can find evidence that goes against my post it here
and I'll deconstruct it scientifically as best I can.

BTW, Its Not FUD. I've done plenty of alternative, including phyto's.
Its not like your the first TS I meet, I've been involved in this circus for 15 years...
Breast pumps get your there without the risk. If you prefer breaking capilaries,
well, its your breasts.

Quote from: Keira on December 15, 2007, 09:42:49 PM

Please Sarah, go get the evidence yourself.
I don't keep a research library on file but have read very very extensively
and been member of DIY hormone group on Yahoo for years where
most people started with phyto-estrogens
and said they were useless for the money spent
I too took some, in good quantity for 3 months before ordering the real thing.
The testimonials of people who tried both in there are multiple.

that you dont' think they are woth the money does not make them "dangerous" as you have claimed.
That is a serious accusation. I'm all ears if you can speak of one case where someone said they had adverse side effects.
but all you are doing is spreading FUD as far as I can tell. It's one thing to say " I think they are expensive, and not as effective for the money in my experience" it is quite another to call them "dangerous"

Quote
In the Yahoo DIY group your
you can get some of those sources by searching through the archive.
And the testimonials I talked about too.

what testimonials?

Quote
If you can find evidence that goes against my post it here
and I'll deconstruct it scientifically as best I can.

sure. I have taken extremely large doses of Phyto-Estrogen with no adverse side effect.
There was an immediately noticable effect on my bust size (within less than four hours)
They are more expensive, they do require larger doses.
That does not make them dangerous.
Do you have hard evidence of them being dangerous?

Quote
Breast pumps get your there without the risk. If you prefer breaking capilaries,
well, its your breasts.

Stretching anything should be done slowly, and with care.
If you are stupid, and try to force your boobs beyond the pain threshold and keep going.
Then yes, it is dangerous.
I practice the splits regularly, would I just force myself to do them without regular practice and gently going?
No. That would be stupid, I would injure myself.
A mature, responsible adult, with no health problems should be able to excercise their breasts this way within reason.
I found fairly good lasting results myself.

I am not arguing about their effectiveness.

I have heard plenty of mixed results for that. I have my own experience.

This is about whether they are dangerous.

With phyto-estrogen the only arguement towards that you have made is that they are un-regulated.

That is not true. Herbal supplements fall within FDA regulation.

Supplements that are found to be dangerous are pulled from the market.

They also have the milligrams and ingedients listed on the bottle.

Some brands even garuntee the dosage levels to be within a certain range.

But your arguement is aginst all supplements by the nature of your arguement.

Could the dosages of each capsule be off by a few thousandths of a milligram due to natural plant varriances? Sure.

Does that make them dangerous?

You seem to say so. But there are millions of people who buy herbal supplements and find them safe and effective that swear otherwise.

If you don't like herbals, you don't like herbals. but that does not make them dangerous.
-Sarah

Many OTC things taken in quantity ARE dangerous.

Try taking to many tylenol capsule and see if your liver survives...
Phyto's taken in quantities to be slightly effective ARE dangerous
because of the by-products that accompany the main ingredients in those
"natural" ingredients. To get an effective response you have to take much
more than what people would normally take of those products.

The FDA doesn't regulate because you do have to take much of the product
for awhile to get adverse effects. Just like you would for many OTC products,
drink cough sirup for awhile and you won't be so good... That's the type of
quantity compared to normal dosage that's needed to get a real response
out of phyto's.

With a breast pump, I can put it on both breasts, but the motor on, and go
back to reading or whatever with not a worry in the world (and the good ones
have different cycles, strenght, speed, etc).

Testimonials are stories from people who've tried phyto, sometimes for quite some time,
and also estrogens. You can guess which one was more effective.

QuotePhyto's taken in quantities to be slightly effective ARE dangerous
because of the by-products that accompany the main ingredients in those
"natural" ingredients.

Such as...?
*looks at bottle of phyto-estrogen*...
you know, I  take powdered plants, blended together, in capsule form. they use vegitatian capsules.
the capsule material is the only thing I can find that is not a "natural" ingreedient.
all the ingredients are listed on the bottle. I don't see any chemicals.
Wouldn't that depend on the brand then?
maybe some brands suck.

QuoteTo get an effective response you have to take much
more than what people would normally take of those products.

well, yes. but what that means is that the ammount of phyto-estrogen that naturally occurs in the plants is lower than what it would be if it were chemicaly extracted, modified and put into capsule form the way prescription estrogen is.
I can take one asprin, or three glasses ( or even one if it is strong) of willow bark tea.
Does that make the willow bark tea dangerous that I have to consume by volume like 5000 percent more(liquid tea compared to one pill)?
It's all relative. I would still be taking the same ammount and actually would have more control over the dosage as it wouldn't be as concentrated.

Quote
Testimonials are stories from people who've tried phyto, sometimes for quite some time,
and also estrogens. You can guess which one was more effective.

The effectiveness isnt' the issue here.
It's whether it is dangerous or not.
you keep quoting the effectiveness like it matters.
It doesn't.
If I am willing to pay more and take more for a natural product, and so are others, that doesn't make it dangerous.
That you are not and others think it is too expensive a route does not mean that they aren't effective if you are willing to spend the money.
I am.

But it gets back to danger.
People who use herbal supplements are aware that they will be spending more for less result-per-pill than one tylenol.
That has nothing to do with whether they are safe.
Are you telling me that the vegitarian capsule material used to enclose the powdered herbs is toxic???
Because that is the only synthetic material in the ones I take.

-Sarah

You do realize that every, even natural things, are CHEMICALS,
if you don't understand this well its pointless to go on.
For example, Black Cohosh is composed of hundreds of chemicals,
some with phyto activity, others with other type of bio-activity.
Why don't you do your research, which you obviously have not done
and come back to me. BTW, I've got at least 7 courses in chemistry,
3 in organic chemistry under my belt before I switched to physics, then
computer engineerings. I've spent a lot of time in university... and worked
in scientific areas.

Initially,  I also hoped that phyto's would work, but I wasn't
willing, and didn't have the money needed to get a minimal proper effect,
so I went DIY on the hormones after a long research on that too.
 
Go in the DIY Yahoo group and do a search there, or ask questions
if you don't mind getting answers you don't like.
There are thousands of
members ordering hormones on the net and they can't all be crazy...
At least 50% of them started using phyto's so they've got the
side by side experience which SHOULD matter to you.

Effectiveness IS important because if you take low (normal)
doses, it will be ineffective and there will be no danger.
You get my drift here, normal OTC dose = No danger and
no effectiveness.

Who wants to spend money on something ineffective.

Quote from: Keira on December 15, 2007, 11:40:15 PM

You do realize that every, even natural things, are CHEMICALS,
if you don't understand this well its pointless to go on.
For example, Black Cohosh is composed of hundreds of chemicals,
some with phyto activity, others with other type of bio-activity.
Why don't you do your research, which you obviously have not done
and come back to me. BTW, I've got at least 7 courses in chemistry,
3 in organic chemistry under my belt before I switched to physics, then
computer engineerings. I've spent a lot of time in university... and worked
in scientific areas.

Initially,  I also hoped that phyto's would work, but I wasn't
willing, and didn't have the money needed to get a minimal proper effect,
so I went DIY on the hormones after a long research on that too.
 
Go in the DIY Yahoo group and do a search there, or ask questions
if you don't mind getting answers you don't like.
There are thousands of
members ordering hormones on the net and they can't all be crazy...
At least 50% of them started using phyto's so they've got the
side by side experience which SHOULD matter to you.

Effectiveness IS important because if you take low (normal)
doses, it will be ineffective and there will be no danger.
You get my drift here, normal OTC dose = No danger and
no effectiveness.

Who wants to spend money on something ineffective.

Hi, Keira,

I looked into phytoestrogens some years ago and I arrived at the conclusion that if they did work, the results would be minimal for the cost of the quantity needed.

Tylenol might not cause the stomach upset that aspirin can but I do agree with you, I have learned that over time it can cause some degree of liver damage.

Below is a link to a group that questions, among many other things, the effectiveness and safety of phytoestrogens.

http://www.living-with-small-a-cup-breasts.com/safety-phytoestrogens-supplements-breasts.html (http://www.living-with-small-a-cup-breasts.com/safety-phytoestrogens-supplements-breasts.html)

I hope that this sheds some additional light on this subject.

Wing Walker

While long term use of Tylenol (and the like) can cause liver damage (but not in all people).
The problem  is people who pop megadoses to ease acute pain,
the effect if this surdose on the liver is not felt immediatly, that's why its so dangerous.
But up to 6 months after this, the damage has been done
and the liver fails. This OTC medication and others are one of the main causes
of liver failure in the US. Other big causes, excess alcool and hepatitis C.
But, since normal use is not a problem and the numbers
are relatively low compared to the zillions of doses, its kept OTC.
Many other OTC meds are very dangerous and people don't realize this.

This is an excerpt from a website whose link is below.  Please note how little real regulation the FDA has over herbal and other nutritional supplements and that there are no real standards for assays of concentration, strength, or purity.

Before one decides to use an herbal supplement, one needs an understanding of how dietary and herbal supplements are regulated in the United States.  In quite simple terms, supplements are largely unregulated.  This means that the supplement you take has no real standard in chemical composition, production, or recommended usage.

The FDA (Food and Drug Administration), the federal department in charge of overseeing the drug and food industries in the United States, is also relatively in charge of the dietary and herbal supplement industry.   However, the extent of their control extends only to labeling, and the actual content and use of supplements is unregulated.  The DSHEA (Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act) passed by Congress in 1994 outlines the FDA's breadth of oversight on the supplement industry.  The DSHEA allowed broadening of the definition of supplements to include herbal medicines.  It also dictated that while the FDA could mandate what needed to be included on the labels of  supplements, the FDA could not require that dietary and herbal supplements adhere to the same strict criteria of demonstrating safety and efficacy as do conventional prescription medicines.  Further, there is no requirement that dietary supplements must have a specific or standard composition from company to company, meaning that the amount of "active ingredients" may be either significant or miniscule.  Thus, one Echinacea supplement may be, and most likely is, vastly different from another Echinacea supplement.

http://altmed.creighton.edu/preg/facts_and_fiction.htm (http://altmed.creighton.edu/preg/facts_and_fiction.htm)

I hope that this helps.

Wing Walker
Careful Buyer of Supplements

Quote from: Keira on December 15, 2007, 11:40:15 PM

You do realize that every, even natural things, are CHEMICALS,
if you don't understand this well its pointless to go on.

Really? I thought they were martians.
I'm talking about processed chemicals. In a lab. not naturally occuring compounds.

Quote
Why don't you do your research, which you obviously have not done
and come back to me. BTW, I've got at least 7 courses in chemistry,
3 in organic chemistry under my belt before I switched to physics, then
computer engineerings. I've spent a lot of time in university... and worked
in scientific areas.

Oh yeah, I'm really impressed. If you've done your research, then show me your data doctor,
Don't just keep saying "I'm too busy, but I took chemistry classes so I know..."

Quote
Go in the DIY Yahoo group and do a search there, or ask questions
if you don't mind getting answers you don't like.

Uh, Hello-o?? I'm asking you!!
You havn't mentioned ONE example of ANYONE having ANY adverse side effect.
I'm talking about Empirical evidence, not inferred presumptions.

Quote
There are thousands of
members ordering hormones on the net and they can't all be crazy...
At least 50% of them started using phyto's so they've got the
side by side experience which SHOULD matter to you.

Hello-o?? I never said they were crazy. I never said anything about prescription hormones.
They are quite safe, and effective.
This is about Herbals, and Hello-o?? they are not going to perform the same, side by side, pill for pill.
They are herbals!!! Not chemically processed, concentrated drugs!
They are not going to perform the same side by side, pill for pill, to act like they should is silly!

Of course they aren't! the dosages and concentration are not the same.
Does a beer have the same amount of alcohol as a bottle of vodka??
I thought you took chemistry??
You think they should perform the same, per dose??

Quote
Effectiveness IS important because if you take low (normal)
doses, it will be ineffective and there will be no danger.
You get my drift here, normal OTC dose = No danger and
no effectiveness.

hello-o? there is NO recommended dose for herbals!!!
What is "normal"???
It's an herbal supplement.
The whole point is to be able to adjust it for your personal needs.

Quote
Who wants to spend money on something ineffective.

it is effective. you just have to take more herbal capsules than prescription estrogen.
"Who" is not for you to judge.
That doesn't have anything to do with the danger.

You ARE spreading FUD.
You have not presented ANY empirical evidence.

I HAVE presented empirical evidence, which you have not addressed as you said you would.

I am taking that your argument is based on FEAR of the UNCERTAINTY of what the long term effects might be as well as the varriableness of herbals, and DOUBT that they are safe based on NO PRESENTED EVIDENCE.

This IS FUD.

You haven't even said that YOU, PERSONALLY had any bad side effect of taking them!

You just say they are expensive to get a result.

SO WHAT!??

That is not danger. and "taking more capsules=Danger" is a presumption, not a fact.

A FUD presumption at that.

You still havn't said that you know of ANY PERSONAL TESTIMONY of bad side effects.

Without that, you are only presuming.
-

There is NO difference between natural compounds and processed compounds.
If they are bad, they are bad no matter their source.
I'm done with this because obviously, you're very obtuse. Over and out.

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 12:38:50 AM

There is NO difference between natural compounds and processed compounds.
If they are bad, they are bad no matter their source.
I'm done with this because obviously, you're very obtuse. Over and out.

Yes there is.
There are no buffers in Asprin which are needed for safe absorption.
They ARE present in Willow bark naturally.
Willow bark is safer.

I think you are kind of a bigot.

"A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

The origin of the word bigot in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite", especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable." emphasis added -from Wikipedia

Quote from: Sarah on December 15, 2007, 09:09:34 PM

Quote from: Keira on December 15, 2007, 06:00:52 PM
No. those vacuum things are harmfull, besides creating mega hickey's on your breasts!!! And have no demonstrable long term effects.
If you really want big nipples (this has been demonstrated), you can you breast pumps used
for getting milks. They don't pull too much and you have to use them often, but your nipples will be bigger after a while. 

Kiera,
you don't like much of anything that is alternative do you?
Do you have any Data to back up your claims or are you just spreading FUD?
Really.
I'm as interested in my safety as the next person, but you havn't quoted a single example of this or Phyto-estrogen that shows that it is dangerous.

If you have evidence, please present it.
-Sarah

Everything Keira has said about phyto-estrogens is correct.  If you would like I can probably get more information from a friend of mine who's a doctor of pharmacy.  The main problem is they are completely unregulated and you have no idea what's actually in that bottle.  They are possibly unsafe and in high dosages potentially life threatening.

Posted on: December 16, 2007, 02:17:12 AM

---

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 12:06:59 AM
While long term use of Tylenol (and the like) can cause liver damage (but not in all people).

I work in a hospital and Tylenol overdosing is way more common than you think.  Do NOT exceed the limits they prescribe on the bottle!  Overdosing is toxic to your liver.  And once your liver is shot, you are gone.  Further, Tylenol is toxic in everyone (in sufficient quantities).

Sorry for the off topic comment.

We have got a great relationship. Ive been lucky.  No implants and I am a C cup & they are well formed.  My mums genes have got to do with it ;)

Quote from: Marlene on December 16, 2007, 02:22:51 AM

Everything Keira has said about phyto-estrogens is correct.  If you would like I can probably get more information from a friend of mine who's a doctor of pharmacy.  The main problem is they are completely unregulated and you have no idea what's actually in that bottle.  They are possibly unsafe and in high dosages potentially life threatening.

Hi Marlene.
Yeah actually I would be interested in that.
The thing is this: That argument applies to all herbal supplements.
I also don't agree that that is entirely true: some herbal companies take great pride in listing ingedients and presenting a quality product.
Stores like Whole Foods where I buy mine spend a great deal of time investigating brands that they carry and which ones are safe. Their own image depends on it.

Unregulation does not mean they are dangerous. It means they are unregulated. It all depends on the brand.( as Wing Walker's post points out)
I live in Boulder. If I had to guess I would say at least 95% of the population uses herbals for somthing or other. This is the home of Celestial Seasonings after all.
We view them as normal medicine here.
Have have many friends who have doctors degrees and masters degrees in alternative medicine.
Why should I not trust them?
I do expect a pharmacist to be against herbals. They are a pharmacist after all.
But there are just as many doctors who advocate their use.

I basically asked a simple question of Kiera.
I'll ask the same of you:
Do you know of anyone by word of mouth or otherwise who has experienced a bad side effect from using Phyto-estrogen?
Kiera didn't respond. She just changed the subject.


I really don't think it's all that much to ask.
I accept the risk of "unregulation".

I guess a better question (given the nature or the supplement industry) would be: Do you know of or have you ever heard of someone experiencing a bad side effect from taking Phyto-Estrogen, Specifically a brand if available.

I'm interested in whether there is a known risk of adverse side effects.
If there is not, then all there is against the use of Phyto-estrogen, is the classic argument against herbals.
An argument which I do not necessarily buy into. And neither do a lot of other people, incl. most of Boulder by the looks of things. Probably the Bay Area too. We have first hand experience that backs it up.

I just don't think that it's too much to ask, that somebody, somewhere, come up with some information to back up the danger claim, other than " fear of Herbals"
I want an actual story of someone's experience. Not just FUD; even if it is airing on the side of safety, if actual experience contradicts the fear, it should be noted, and not rejected.

P.S. Thanks Wing Walker, That post was really helpful

i actually dont WANT implants... even if i stay a B cup (unlikely)... i dont want to be part fake... my breasts are special to me, and i want them untouched by a knife...
R :police:

Quote from: Sarah on December 15, 2007, 02:48:54 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on December 15, 2007, 07:17:23 AM
Is there anything other than surgery to get boobs? I've found that even after many years on hormones I still haven't got anough to fill a B cup...

Yes, vaccum exercising.
Go to: www.extremerestraints.com (a respectable S&M site) they have the acrillic tubes for stretching them out.
With hormones gets dramatic results.
Also, I find phyto-estrogen works better for me.
More expensive (by far) and takes longer, but better results.

Also, consider adding Fenugreek to your diet and supplements.
Fenugreek has been hsed for thousands of years to increase breast size.
It was used by harem girls in the middle east particularly.
I take it with the my other stuff, and so far my methods have had pretty noticable results even in a short time.

What nonsense...

Posted on: December 16, 2007, 06:51:57 AM

---

Quote from: Rachael on December 16, 2007, 06:43:27 AM
i actually dont WANT implants... even if i stay a B cup (unlikely)... i dont want to be part fake... my breasts are special to me, and i want them untouched by a knife...
R :police:

I completely agree with you Rachael but unfortunitely I haven't got breasts anywhere near a female shape or size for my build, so it seems the only option for me..

whats wrong with a pushup bra?
R :police:

Rachael, if you had much muscle before, you could actually go up in cup while actually your breast being smaller. They would be bigger, but the muscle underneeth the breast gives a false idea of the size of the breast. After 5 months I was 38B and now I'm 34C) In theory that's much smaller even with the bigger cup (because of smaller band size), but I know there's much more breast tissue there than before (when I touch them) and a lot less muscle. You only realize after you lost it how much muscles there was under the breast tissue.

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 02:04:48 PM

Rachael, if you had much muscle before, you could actually go up in cup while actually your breast being smaller. They would be bigger, but the muscle underneeth the breast gives a false idea of the size of the breast. After 5 months I was 38B and now I'm 34C) In theory that's much smaller even with the bigger cup (because of smaller band size), but I know there's much more breast tissue there than before (when I touch them) and a lot less muscle. You only realize after you lost it how much muscles there was under the breast tissue.

True. Band size number going down is actually your back/chest size going down. It's really the cup that's the size of the actual breasts.

But, a 34C has a smaller cup than a 38B, but it projects more outward (hop I'm clear).
When you start, males have much pectoral muscle.
Many FTM that get a mastectomy look really weird initially until they build
up their pects. They are VERY VERY flat chested unless they trained hard
prior to mastectomy.

hmm that may be why so many recent ftm post op pics look so unnatural. it scared me. that look would be horrible on me. i'm too big a guy.

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 03:53:16 PM

But, a 34C has a smaller cup than a 38B, but it projects more outward (hop I'm clear).
When you start, males have much pectoral muscle.
Many FTM that get a mastectomy look really weird initially until they build
up their pects. They are VERY VERY flat chested unless they trained hard
prior to mastectomy.

well im a 36B atm... not MUCH muscle, but theres some fat which is going... so yeah, maybe... but then, ive always had breasts since my early teens... and NOT fat... i was asked so many times before i came out if i was wearing a bra ><
R :police:

As I said rachel, most TS underestimate how much pectoral they had.
If you had little muscle, you'd look weird. I've seen MTF with little
muscles and they looked very week as men, but now with
breast tissue in the right place, they are better balanced.
That's why I smile when many TS say they are B's in 4 months, yeah
they fit a B cup, but much of this muscle that will go away and fat
that shouldn't be there. Many TS are overweight before they start HRT
because of self-esteem issues. Later, pects will diminish and your chest size
actualy will actually decrease while keeping the same cup size (what could
cause this but muscle loss...).

If your band size goes down a lot, its because of loss of fat and muscles.
Women who are overweight need big band sizes.

If you lose fat elsewhere (you don't need to be obese for that)
your breast can go down in size substantially, depends on how much
of it is gland and how much is fat.
I lost 30 pounds and even if you saw me before, you'd not
say I had that much to lose (though part of this weight was muscles, but most was fat).

Belive me Kiera, i am a b cup... not fit a b bra, but its a FULL b cup... and its ALL breast tissue... 4 months? hah no not even close... i had a decent A having a go by then, but im a healthy full B at the moment (11 months) im a 34-36 depending on the bra, YOur right about cupsize going up when you go down band... i found that out the painful way once! I did have very little pectoral muscle, but i have, as ive said, had small breastgrowth since puberty, so that skews things a bit... Youve seen me in a bikini :P thats boob :P
R :police:

Unless I'm mistaken, this is how bra sizes work:

band size (in inches) --> 34 B <-- cup size

Neither has anything to do with the other, so a 36B has a larger band size (around your ribs), but a smaller cup size (boobs) then a 34C.

QuoteThe size of a bra is commonly described by two values. The first is the band size (underband), a number based on the circumference of the chest under the bust, excluding the breasts. The second is the cup size given by a letter of the alphabet, and relating to the volume of the breasts themselves. For example, a 30D bra has a 30-size band and a D-size cup. Cup sizes typically start with A, the smallest, and increase alphabetically. A double or triple lettering system may also be used, e.g. DDD for F or AA for a size smaller than A.

from wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassiere#Measurement_systems

Posted on: December 17, 2007, 05:02:33 PM

---

Though I also need to add that brands etc are ALL different, so while you might fit one size in one brand it probably won't hold true for all brands.

Quote from: Nero on December 16, 2007, 04:13:50 PM
hmm that may be why so many recent ftm post op pics look so unnatural. it scared me. that look would be horrible on me. i'm too big a guy.

Yeah it took me a lot of weightlifting to get pecs. Because the fat gets removed as well, you do look quite unnatural at first.

Dennis

A B-C-D cup is NOT always the same, when you go down a band size
your cup size will go up. Check it out online.

Quote from: Dennis on December 18, 2007, 12:10:46 AM

Quote from: Nero on December 16, 2007, 04:13:50 PM
hmm that may be why so many recent ftm post op pics look so unnatural. it scared me. that look would be horrible on me. i'm too big a guy.

Yeah it took me a lot of weightlifting to get pecs. Because the fat gets removed as well, you do look quite unnatural at first.

Dennis

Good to know. I was afraid that look was permanent or due to some surgeons technique.  I never took into the account the reason why it may look that way. Thanks.

Quote from: Sarah on December 16, 2007, 01:07:45 AM

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 12:38:50 AM

There is NO difference between natural compounds and processed compounds.
If they are bad, they are bad no matter their source.
I'm done with this because obviously, you're very obtuse. Over and out.

Yes there is.
There are no buffers in Asprin which are needed for safe absorption.
They ARE present in Willow bark naturally.
Willow bark is safer.

I think you are kind of a bigot.

"A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

The origin of the word bigot in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite", especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable." emphasis added -from Wikipedia

lulz... what a hypocrite....  ;D
R ::)

Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 04:35:53 AM
Belive me Kiera, i am a b cup... not fit a b bra, but its a FULL b cup... and its ALL breast tissue... 4 months? hah no not even close... i had a decent A having a go by then, but im a healthy full B at the moment (11 months) im a 34-36 depending on the bra, YOur right about cupsize going up when you go down band... i found that out the painful way once! I did have very little pectoral muscle, but i have, as ive said, had small breastgrowth since puberty, so that skews things a bit... Youve seen me in a bikini :P thats boob :P
R :police:

I am a bit confused. Are you referring to that shot of you in the "bored" thread? You look barely an A  in that pic. Well, to me anyway, but I am overflowing my DD bras now, when I wear one. :)

As I said, its very hard to judge breast from muscle initially.
The breast tissue after a while covers the pect entirely and the gland
prevents easy palpation beneath. One way to sort of know, is to contract
the pect the most you can while hanging forward. But ,even then, its not
as easy as it seems.

Don't want to offend anybody, me also when I was 38B after 6 month
thought that this was all breast tissue, but now than I'm 34B a year at most
away from 32, I have to admit that most of the 38B was filled with the pect
under the breast tissue. The reason I say this, I know I have more tissue than
then (lots for bounce), but a 38B is 2-4 times bigger than a 34B so the difference
must be because of lost muscle and because I lost weight.
This is obvious since I also lost much band size and bust
size and that's all muscles loss.

me:       Hello breasts how are you?
breasts: Fine.
me:       Should you really be here?
breasts: Not really, you should stop eating.
me:       Oh. Well. I won't bother doing that. Erm.....welcome to the team.

Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 30, 2007, 01:50:15 AM

Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 04:35:53 AM
Belive me Kiera, i am a b cup... not fit a b bra, but its a FULL b cup... and its ALL breast tissue... 4 months? hah no not even close... i had a decent A having a go by then, but im a healthy full B at the moment (11 months) im a 34-36 depending on the bra, YOur right about cupsize going up when you go down band... i found that out the painful way once! I did have very little pectoral muscle, but i have, as ive said, had small breastgrowth since puberty, so that skews things a bit... Youve seen me in a bikini :P thats boob :P
R :police:

I am a bit confused. Are you referring to that shot of you in the "bored" thread? You look barely an A  in that pic. Well, to me anyway, but I am overflowing my DD bras now, when I wear one. :)

yeah, i do look barely an a, but such is a non supporting bikini...
at my last bra fitting, i was a 36b, and i overflow A cup bras.
Kiera: your right, ill probably drop to 34 when i stop being a fat moo, theres a high chance, and im hoping too, that there is pectoral muscle under the breast.
R :police:

I was not sure where to post this but this looked like a good thread to do it in. I noticed today that my breast buds have finally caught up to each other. The left one seemed to be growing faster than the right one when I started taking HRT. Now almost three months into it they are now the same size. This is so cool!!!  ;D

Quote from: Laura91 on December 30, 2007, 11:01:56 AM
I was not sure where to post this but this looked like a good thread to do it in. I noticed today that my breast buds have finally caught up to each other. The left one seemed to be growing faster than the right one when I started taking HRT. Now almost three months into it they are now the same size. This is so cool!!!  ;D

Righty is still a bit smaller than lefty :(  I noticed that for the first time though that lefty actually fills out my nearly A bra though!  ;D  Small victories in life...

Quote from: Laura91 on December 30, 2007, 11:01:56 AM
I was not sure where to post this but this looked like a good thread to do it in. I noticed today that my breast buds have finally caught up to each other. The left one seemed to be growing faster than the right one when I started taking HRT. Now almost three months into it they are now the same size. This is so cool!!!  ;D

Congrats! :laugh:

Quote from: Kat on December 30, 2007, 11:07:27 AM

Quote from: Laura91 on December 30, 2007, 11:01:56 AM
I was not sure where to post this but this looked like a good thread to do it in. I noticed today that my breast buds have finally caught up to each other. The left one seemed to be growing faster than the right one when I started taking HRT. Now almost three months into it they are now the same size. This is so cool!!!  ;D

Righty is still a bit smaller than lefty :(  I noticed that for the first time though that lefty actually fills out my nearly A bra though!  ;D  Small victories in life...

They should even out. If not, it's not uncommon for one breast to be slighter bigger than the other.

I don't look at them. I don't acknowledge them. I've seriously thought of cutting them off myself several times, if I had a sharp enough instrument, but gave up the thought because there's just too many risks of infection or bleeding to death with that. But that's how much I hate them.