Susan's Place Transgender Resources

When should one consider FFS?

In my opinion I need FFS, if for no other reason than for when I look into the mirror.

Though I feel unfortunately certain that I will never pass with the exact facial structure I currently possess. I am, however, not sure how long after HRT has started that one can get a general idea of what their face will eventually look like. This makes it difficult to estimate exactly what needs to be done.

*ponders*

This leads me to the question of when one should consider FFS?

Commentary welcome (=

I didnt know that HRT changed the shape of the face. I thought it made the skin softer (it has for me) and in some cases the beard a little lighter.


FFS does wonders, i would think having it as soon as possible would be good, the high cost for a top surgeon causes delay for many.

No change in bone structure of course (unless very young as I understand it) rather fat redistribution; in my case I expect to have a bit of heft put into my face which is a good thing. (fat redistribution such like).

As I understand it anyway, which of course does not mean I'm right.

Hi 4years,

I suppose considering when to have FFS is a matter of your personal goals and individualized transition time-line set by you and your therapist. From the information I've picked up off the web, I was told to focus first on the areas in which you feel need the *most* improvement (for some, this may be voice or skin). As you've stated in your original post:

Quote from: 4years on June 04, 2005, 11:32:18 PMThough I feel unfortunately certain that I will never pass with the exact facial structure I currently possess.

By this alone, I'd assume you see this as a priority.

Clearly, in addition to the links here at Susan's, (and if you haven't already), I suggest you check out www.donnarose.com (http://www.donnarose.com) and www.tsroadmap.com (http://www.tsroadmap.com) and www.counselsuite.com (http://www.counselsuite.com), all of which give excellent advice on FFS and setting transition priorities.

I was told that we should wait at least a year after starting hormones to better determine the see what subtle but signifigant changes the hormones have made then do FFS if it is still needed.  I also think I will need FFS ASAP.  Also I was advised to start electrolysis immediatly because takes the longestand can cost as much or more that SRS and greatly affects the softness and radiance of the skin adding to the desired glow we all want.

   

 "This leads me to the question of when one should consider FFS?"

When you can afford it without detracting from primary goals.  Hrt won't make that much difference to basic facial look.  Some, but most of what happens is different outlooks, and presentation to the world, the eyes, the mouth and the way the muscles in the face work.  If you wait for the full physical effect of HRT, you could be a couple of years and the bone structure would still be the same.  Anytime if you feel you need it.  It really comes down to money.  If that is not a concern, have at, but if you have to delay or otherwise put off more important aspects of transition, you might concider deeply.

TG

Valuable advice, thank you one and all.

Before I knew a tenth of what I know now relating, my plan was electrolysis (asap) and FFS before the RLT. As it currently stands that still seems the best plan of attack.

(=

 From what I have learned I have made this my plan. :P  Hair removal after 3 months on HRT, I got that from three different hair removal tech's at three different companys.  After 6 to 8 months get a consultation with a FFS surgeon or two. The reason, I understand in waiting 6 months is for the fat movement due to HTR to make its effects known.

The main  controlling factor M o n e y and health.

Hugss Mishell


[edit](4years) Fixed forum format error, this post should look like Mishell intended now.[/edit]

ok well that answers my question too  ;D thanks girls

Wow, this helps allot.  *Ive been told I dont need FFS" but I want it for my own peace of mind.

If your picture is anything to go by Lynn, I have to agree, you don't need FFS.  But then the peace of ming is also important.

Hi

I had FFS prior to SRS and I"m totally satisfied with the results!
Although I agree that it is a good idea to be on HRT for 1 year prior
to FFS to see what changes if any need to be made.

LeslieGirl

I think opposite of lesigirl. I had FFS asap so i could then have the HRT fill in all over the face. I did the same with BAS and HRT did then fill in all around the 270cc implants. This looks more natural. I have seen many who waited and they looked like they had FFS and BAS. My case mine look very natural since the HRT filled in all over my body after surgery. Anyway the choice is yours.. byeeeeeeeeee

Never.

Thundra,

Don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on that answer would you?

Cassie

OK.  FFS.  Facial Feminization Surgery.

The entire idear is completely misogynist and is predicated on a narrow male view, of what looks female, and what looks male.

It is an institutionalized thought process that is harmful to all woman, but especially young woman, much as the unrealistic expectations that are heaped on them to conform to a narrow male view of how much a woman should weigh. Or how many curves she is allowed to have/not have to be considered attractive or to fit into heterosexual society.

Unfortunately, what I have seen in this community especially, is a gleeful willingness to surrender all individual identity to the driving force that is the patriarchy. People here, rather than challenge the assumptions of the het. majority, rush to embrace those same tired standards of male-prescribed beauty that woman have been struggling to overcome for decades, is not the last millenia.

Before anyone even considers any kind of facial modification, they ought to really LOOK around them at other women.  ALL women, of ALL ages, ALL skin tones, and ALL ethnic backgrounds.  If you do so with an open mind, and no pre-prescribed notions of what is beautiful, and what is not, you will quickly come to the conclusion that no two woman look alike, let alone look like what the infamous DR O. does to people's faces.

I leave you with this thought that I and countless other women live by:  There are no ugly women, there are only stupid men.

Apologies to any liberated men w/in earshot, because that volley is NOT addressed at you.  It is addressed at people that act/behave in such a manner that their actions create unrealistic burdens on other people thru expectations of beauty, or otherwise.

Thus did Thundra speak.

"Can I rain on your parade today?"

Those are valid thoughts Thundra, thank you for sharing them.

However I see things in a different light.

I rush to embrace my own sense of beauty, not someone else's. Not some prescribed notion of what is beautiful, but what I, myself, consider beautiful. I'd go for full therianthropic/anthropomorphic if the option existed, but it doesn't. I tolerate my face as I tolerate my genitals. Neither belong on what I consider proper.

To be clear I am very well aware that beauty is subjective.

Ok, Thundra,

Now tell us what you really think. ;D

Like Kimberly said, valid thoughts and good food for thought for anyone considering FFS. Thank you for elaborating. For my part I'm pretty happy with my face as is and don't see myself changing it. I look a lot like my sister and my bone structure fits the female profile.

I do think many of us however are concerned with fitting the female norm which is more defined from an anthropological standpoint than any stereotype. Female bone structure is very different from male and even in women who look very masculine the basic bone structure still fits this standard in facial features.

Some of us may want to look like some super model vision of ourselves, few who do will actually achieve such a result. But, I don't think most of the women here are demonstrating "a gleeful willingness to surrender all individual identity to the driving force that is the patriarchy" as you say.

Anyway I do appreciate your honest opinion on the matter and I'm sure many will find it very useful in their decision making process.

Good Journey,

Cassie

If I were younger, rich, vain and worried I would probably consider it.  I am none of the four.

I see in the mirror a women who has wrinkles, radiation burns just an older woman.  My voice sux due to the surgery to remove my lymph nodes plus 7 weeks of radiation cooked my vocal cords, saliva glands and taste buds.    You know what?  I can go to places that I am not known, meet women that have no knowlege of my past and my looks & voice have nothing to do with acceptance.

If FFS is what a person needs for themselves go for it.  If it is done for absolutley any other reason then maybe priorities need to be looked at.

Leigh Dearest,

Duck!

<< I do think many of us however are concerned with fitting the female norm which is more defined from an anthropological standpoint than any stereotype. Female bone structure is very different from male and even in women who look very masculine the basic bone structure still fits this standard in facial features. >>

You have , of course, the right to do anything you like to your own body.  I do not take issue with that fact.  But.......

In your statement, I think that you are entirely missing my point.
I think that by trying to 'fit(ting) a female norm' as you phrase it, is dangerous, if not deluded. My point, is that there is no norm.  I think that you are drawing on too small a sample of the female population in making your statement of generality.

Woman come in every size and shape. You might be very surprised by some of the women you might meet, then methinks, because I've no doubt you would not know some of them were not men?  For instance, I had a roommate, that had the biggest %$#@#$%^ head I have ever seen.  It, was, huge.  And she was built larger and was stronger than almost all of the men she worked with, but she was still a natal female.  And, she is not an aberation, or just "the exception."

I get the strong feeling from your posting, and from many others here, that your view of what a woman is supposed to look like is very narrow, indeed.  My point is, that a woman is not supposed to look like anything.  At all.  She is supposed to look like who she is.  It is how she was born.

Now, I also have heard the other argument, that some people want to undo what testosterone did to to their body, to their face, frame, etc.  But, realistically, how are you to ever determine what you would have/would not have looked like had your not been exposed to "T?"  Once again, for every point one can make about looking "more" female, I can think of many women I have known that do not fit that norm, both in people I have known in the past and present, and no doubt, could find several examples on any trip to any venue where lots of females are present.

Another point I would raise, is that from many conversations in the past, amongst women I have known, one of the greatest points of contention that has come up, in regards to woman that transition, vs. natal females, is that they take great issue with the way woman that transition view what is female? In essence, they feel kind of, well, insulted, by the fact that people that were not born natally female feel free to judge what a woman should/should not look like.  And especially, when they themselves cannot fit that mold.

So, when I say that the right time to have FFS is never, it is not based just on trying to avoid a stereotype, but also based on a larger sociological idear of supporting woman's space, and the work that woman have done to quash stereotypical thinking. In other words, just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

One can argue that the thought of "FFS ASAP" is a way to avoid a stereotype as well.

FFS isn't necessarily about looking more female but rather searching for a reflection that matches what one perceives oneself to be like.

I have seen quite a number of interesting faces, of both genetic sexes. There are also quite a number of interesting variations in voice and speech patterns as well.

Regardless, there is value in matching the perceived norm in that it allows one to more easily pass.

At the risk of being Thundra struck :),

I think I understand what your saying Thundra but also I think Kimberley's point is valid also. For some it is not so much about conforming as standing out less. I know many people who would choose to have less prominent features given the chance. Both males and females have surgery to adjust some feature or other. I also realise that this type of surgery is very serious by its nature.

Each to theirwn I say. Thundra your comments of never are valid for some. Linking them to an unrealistic expectation on the part of males however does tend to indicate that the person who chooses in the positive is incapable of making their own choice based on sound reasoning.

I think that your argument is against generalisations that indeed some males make but in making it that argument generalisations are used to justify it.

A conundrum this creates. More discussion may be necessary I think.

Shelley

<< Regardless, there is value in matching the perceived norm in that it allows one to more easily pass  >>

Arghhhh!

The evil "P"  word.

I have but one comment to make about this part of your post.

::The point about passing, is that there is no point::

As far as the surgery itself goes, I am all for people empowering themselves, to realize that they can do whatever they want with their own body.  But, just because you have that right, does not mean you should exercise it.

I am most concerned about this point, because of the lengths to which people will go to modify themselves.  I mean, after all, point well taken that lots of people are going in to have this, that, or the other thing done.  But.......I have seen way too many peeps go in and do everything at once, as if they are trying to run from themselves.  And, all too often, they seem no happier with the end result than before they had their facial surgery, or whatever. And then, there are those that spend a fortune after becoming addicted to having surgery, after surgery, after surgery.
To the point, where it seems at least some become so caught up in transitioning whatever that it becomes their motive for living.  They get so caught up in changing themselves that they forget to live. You gotta stop somewhere.

Surgery can be addictive, just like drugs, or alcohol, or whatever.
It will not change who you are, or give you self-esteem.  And, it certainly will not help you to interact with other people if you are not comfortable with yourself.  It is not a panacea.

In my opinion, there is one really good reason to *try* and pass, which can be summed up by saying personal safety and dignity. People seem to have this nasty tendency to not be very nice.

Personally I am well aware that just because something can be done does not mean it should. This includes the thoughts of surgery and a vast multitude of other things.

In my opinion, surgery is merely a means to and end, not an end in itself. As you said, it is not a panacea, nor is it meant to be, it would be foolish to treat it as such.

Interesting thoughts.

hmm.  whenever i've seen supermodels and the like on tv or suchlike media, i always judge them what afterwards i consider a bit harshly, and then think to myself "now, what's that all about?  why am i critical in particular of them?"

before i always considered that it was one of those professions that seems sickeningly too much to always have to proclaim more loudly than anybody else cares for the volume level of, every other half hour, "this is more difficult than any other job in the universe" - and then expect people not to think that sounds a little like overcompensation for something.

but now i think it's not that.  now i think it's probably mainly because of the narrow set of moulds these people are market-controlled into looking like and/or dare being chosen in the first place only if they look like.  that's why i get that knee-jerk reaction... because the very industry itself is well dodgy, and the models only support that dodgy industry.

hmm.  this made me come up with a pleasant thought.

wouldn't it be nice if there was a place people could go to and from as they please, where sex didn't exist?  nothing sexy, or sexual, sex doesn't sell, nothing's dirty or dodgy, as is nobody, no suggestion, no flirting, no nothing... everything clean.  i wouldn't stay there indefinately... but you have to think... so many things would be right about such a place...

Quote from: Svetlana on August 08, 2005, 12:44:12 AM
wouldn't it be nice if there was a place people could go to and from as they please, where sex didn't exist?  nothing sexy, or sexual, sex doesn't sell, nothing's dirty or dodgy, as is nobody, no suggestion, no flirting, no nothing... everything clean. i wouldn't stay there indefinately... but you have to think... so many things would be right about such a place...

Boring-regimenitated-controlled---not for me.

When should one consider FFS?  Whenever one desire's it.

Natal women get plastic surgery all the time to approve their appearance without having people question whether they are doing it to 'fit' the male's idea of appearance.  Why do they do it?

1. To feel better about themselves and how they look.
2. To correct their birth-given features to fit in with their idea of beauty.
3. To reverse the effects of age / gravity.

Why should FFS be any different.  Why get FFS?
1. To feel better about yourself and how you look
2. To correct your birth given (read cursed) features to fit in with your idea of beauty.
3. To reverse the effects of some uncontrollable law / effect (testosterone).

When should you get FFS? Whenever you darn well please :)

In fact, should I decide this is the route I am going to take (transition I mean)... I am still deathly afraid of this and about a thousand other things... argh, thats another tangent... anyway... should I decide to transition, I will be getting FFS so that I don't feel like an ogress in a dress.  Furthermore, I will be doing FFS before going fulltime.  The only reason I can stay sane is that, no matter where I end up, I look better than Janet Reno and she is genetic! *laughs*

Jessica

#4 ____to have the look that men might or would consider attractive

Yes Leigh, but, that is for both cases.  That goes for Cosmetic Surgery in general.

Like it or not, that's how it is.  Society (both men and women) set the standard for what is beautiful.  Men by who they find attractive and women by conforming to it.  Advertising, TV, Marketing, Fashion, all of it.

Plastic surgery is designed at that one drive, to be beautiful / accepted.  It's out there, and if your willing to pay for it, it's an option.  Just because the rules suck and it shouldn't be that way, really doesn't matter, the fact is it is that way.

We can wish the rules were different, we can wish that we didn't have to play this game because it's unfair and sucks but, thats how it is.  We're here and we're playing and we aren't allowed to leave (so my therapist tells me anyway).

I agree that society should not be so 'beauty based' but it is.  Most people if you ask them will agree with that statement and even claim to live by it.  Most people will say that inner beauty is just as important.  But, look at who men go up and talk to.  Is it the girl with personality and intelligence? Nope.  It's the beautiful busty blonde that has about as much substance as an empty glass of air.  Those are the rules, and if those are the rules, then fine, at least cosmetic surgery might be able to put me in the game.

Jessica

hmm... well... that just answered something about myself that I have never really brought to light.  Hell, I am all confused now.  That ... my response... that was sexual competition.  But, it was the... wrong way?  Is that the reason I would do FFS?  It appears so, hell, I don't even know that.... I would go that far.... argh.

I'm really too confused to participate in any of these conversations accept 'Introductions.'

I should have stayed out of this conversation.  Sorry.

I knew I shouldn't have watched 'My Little Pony' cartoons when I was little... That's it!  I can blame my little pony for making me this way. *sigh*

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on August 08, 2005, 11:42:57 AM

We can wish the rules were different, we can wish that we didn't have to play this game because it's unfair and sucks but, thats how it is. We're here and we're playing and we aren't allowed to leave (so my therapist tells me anyway).

We or at least I do not/choose not to play by their rules.  Their rules also view surgery very different than I do.  If you or anyone abide by *their* rules then you have bought into the system.The very same system that pays women less money, second class citizens, chattel that men use as barter.  Status symbols, ornaments, maids, a vessel to bear their children.

FFS--altered reality

Quote from: Svetlana on August 08, 2005, 12:44:12 AM

hmm.  this made me come up with a pleasant thought.

wouldn't it be nice if there was a place people could go to and from as they please, where sex didn't exist?  nothing sexy, or sexual, sex doesn't sell, nothing's dirty or dodgy, as is nobody, no suggestion, no flirting, no nothing... everything clean.  i wouldn't stay there indefinately... but you have to think... so many things would be right about such a place...

Yes this is a lovely thought. I am still single because all the TS sisters i have met all want to get intimate before getting to know me. My transitioning has been a very nice experience except for that. I transitioned for identity not sexuality. When i find the right person who feels the same then it can progress in a natural stage to intimacy but until then i am just enjoying being totally non sexual..

So if I understand where this thread has gone,

If you do anything to improve your self image that is only done in an attempt to clear the path for sex. Therefore from this point forward I'm going to throw out all of my makeup find the dowdiest of clothes because I am happily marrried and do not wish to give the wrong impression.

But then no, I am capable of keeping my desires in check and to a degree capable of fending off unwanted advances. So I will dress to please me and no other. I will, with dignity as Kimberley said, do what I want to adjust my image to that which I self identify with. I have this freedom because I live in a democracy that allows me to self identify with the image that pleases me notother people. If men have issue with the way they think we should dress that is their problem they own those issues not me.

If I may I will now step down from this pedestle that arrived from no where and go and adjust my makeup.

Shelley

<< The only reason I can stay sane is that, no matter where I end up, I look better than Janet Reno and she is genetic! *laughs*  >>

My Goddess!  <groan>  After all of this discussion, this is the response.  Is that what this is about?  I look better than......Janet Reno, her, you, whatever?  That is to me, a lack of self-esteem, and even less awareness of how much women/womyn/wimmen suffer do to the onus this society places on them to be "beautiful," as defined by men. If you had self-esteem, you would not even care about how you look compared to other women.  That speaks of competition, and that comes from men.

That is just very sad.

<< If you do anything to improve your self image that is only done in an attempt to clear the path for sex. Therefore from this point forward I'm going to throw out all of my makeup find the dowdiest of clothes because I am happily marrried and do not wish to give the wrong impression. >>

And when did you decide you were a lesbian/feminist/amazon warrior? Hmmmm?

But seriously, would you still feel the need to run off and have FFS if you lived in a society populated only by women? See, a funny thing happens when no men are around.  The dynamics of interaction change markedly.

No men, no need to please them or placate their idears of what women should behave like, or look like.  The thing that is driving women to run off to change every little thing about themselves is the unrealistic image portrayed in society.  It makes them feel inadequate.  And who runs society.....men?  So, any woman that tells me she is changing all this stuff about herself, not to please men, but to please herself, well, I'm not buying it?  After all, it is men that invented the surgeries, and came up with all of these crazy idears in the first place.  Men are never satisfied with a woman's image.  Because he doesn't really want a real woman.  He wants the perfect image he see's in a magazine, or on TV.

So, my bent, is that if y'all lived somewhere isolated from men, everyone would not be running off to do this/that/and the other thing to themselves.  There would not be this need to conform to a set image of beauty, because there would be no one there to set that image.

I know woman do not make the rules.  But.......no one is holding a gun against your head to comply with their rules either.

And who the hell wants to wear a dress anyway?  I'll take a pair of jeans, or shorts any day.

Sorry to butt in, but it seems to me that Thundra's statements are less of a FFS nature and more of an anti-man nature.  And one thing I've always hated is man-bashing.  You know what would happen if all the men disappeared?  We'd die.  That's what.  The genetic material needs to be passed around, so we're stuck with men.  I disagree that men run the entire world, through.  True there's a lot of testosterone-soaked politics running around, but if you want to change the rules, then get out there and change them.

It's not that easy, is it?  Now I agree that women are not treated equally in the world.  It's a shameful fact.  That I could do without.  But to bring all hellfire and brimstone down on the entire gender and claim that all men suck and all men need to disappear and all men need to go away and leave the women alone, well that's just poppycock.  There are decent men in the world.  There are men out there who treat ALL women like queens.  There are men out there that have tried to undo what has been done.  There are men out there that don't give a flying *&^% what you look like.  There are men out there that bring good lighting to the sex.  Let's not slaughter the entire herd here because we've had a bad experience with an ex-boyfriend.  If we try to humiliate educate or eradicate the male gender, then we're no better than them.

Please keep the man-bashing to a dull roar.

Now, back on topic.

Get FFS if you feel it will help, and get it when you want.  It may not be a panacea, but it's not a placebo either.  If you feel better afterwards, then it was worth it.

Quote from: Thundra on August 08, 2005, 08:47:14 PM
...
But seriously, would you still feel the need to run off and have FFS if you lived in a society populated only by women?...

Oh that is a fun thought. Hum, lets see.. better planet by and large, lets just fantasize and say FFS is still present and still as good and has no other social side effects...

Yes, I think so, but perhaps not as much. There are a few facial features I have that I have never liked, ffs would still be a way to help 'fix' that.

Quote from: Thundra on August 08, 2005, 08:47:14 PM
...
And who the hell wants to wear a dress anyway?  I'll take a pair of jeans, or shorts any day.

I do! :P (Because I like how they look, and I like how they feel.

Quote from: stephanie on August 08, 2005, 10:12:22 PM
  I disagree that men run the entire world, through.

Name 5 women in power as the head of any nation.
Name 5 women who head 3 of the top 100 fortune 500 companies.
Name the women govenors of the 50 states.

QuoteTrue there's a lot of testosterone-soaked politics running around, but if you want to change the rules, then get out there and change them.

I may be speaking of what I know not but I believe the Thundra is out there everyday, working and livng, making a difference.  To bad more can't say the same.

QuoteIt's not that easy, is it?

Sure it is, just open the door and attend a political rally.  Meet the city council, the county commissioners.  Don't hide come out, come out wheverever you are!

QuoteThere are men out there that don't give a flying *&^% what you look like.

Now that I agree with.  They could care  less if you are breathing just as long as the body is warm.

Quote from: Leigh on August 08, 2005, 10:54:15 PM
Now that I agree with.  They could care  less if you are breathing just as long as the body is warm.

Despite what man-bashing feminists everywhere want you to think, there are decent men out there.  All I'm saying is that we can't hold every man in the world respeonsible for the sad state of affairs that a few shauvanists have created.  Fix the problem, not the blame.

Now before I really get in trouble, I'm quitting this thread.

You forgot to name the women who are in power.

'Kay fine we'll play this game.

women leaders of foreign countries: (current or former)

Indira Ghandhi, PM of India
Benazir Bhutto, PM of Pakistan (an Islamic state at that)
Golda Meir, Israel
Elisabeth Domitien, Central African Republic
Margaret Thatcher, former PM of UK
Edith Cresson, former PM of France
Hanna Suchocka, Poland
Helen Clark, New Zealand
A. Kim Campbell, Canada

that's just a few that caught my eye.

Leaders of Fortune 500 companies: (not sure if theyr'e in the top 100 or not, sorry I don't do research well)

Meg Whitman, CEO eBay
Carlton Fiorina, former CEO of Hewlett-Packard
Shelley Lazarus, CEO Ogilvy & Mather
Andrea Jung, President and CEO Avon
Patricia Russo, CEO Lucent Technologies
Anne Mulcahy, CEO Xerox

(all of which did substantially better than most other Fortune 500's in recent fiscal years)

Women Governors of the US:

Jennifer Granholm, Michigan (D)
Janet Napolitano, Arkansas (R)
Ruth Ann Minner, Delaware, (D)
Linda Lingle, Hawaii (R)
Kathleen Sebelius, Kansas (D)
Kathleen Blanco, Louisiana (D)
Haley Barbour, Mississippi (R)
Christine Gregoire, Washington (D)


All in all, not bad for 30 minutes of research on Google.

And if you think this list isn't long enough and that still not enough women are in power, just think of how much shorter this list would have been five, twenty, or fifty years ago.  I'd say women are slowly but surely making progress toward true equality.

Now can we get back on topic?

HA!!!!  In our house, the wife's in charge.  ROFLMFAO!!

wajdi

Whenever you want for whatever reason YOU chose.  It's your body, your face, and your life, period.  Don't do it for any man or woman other than yourself.  Don't not do it out of fear that you may pander to the whims of a patriarchal society--sorry but that really is feminist thinking at it's worst.  That this conversation has been highjacked by some ideologues makes a mockery of this place as a support group.  Hate men?  I don't care but since some of the visitors here might be enlightened men or transmen, why don't you save your male bashing for a board devoted to that cause.   If one of the driving concepts behind feminism is liberation from the confines of male-privilege and patriarchy, it shouldn't also confine women inside a new box called "feminist cant" defining certain behaviors as anti-woman or male-influenced and therefore unacceptable.  This much is true: there is no look, no behavior, no attitude that defines a woman.  She can look like a fairy princess or a man, she can have facial hair or not, smooth skinned or wrinkled by life, anything you can imagine.  And if she is happy with herself, let no one tell her she needs to change. If she isn't, decides she wants to change her manner, her dress, or her look–for her–then NONE of you have any right to judge her choice. 

Cailyn

I don't believe that anything was said about can't, only that the reasons be for yourself.

One of the purposes of a forum or support group is to present other views and options.  Differing opinions may give someone pause before they do something that later they may regret.  Total support is not only foolish it can be outright dangerous.

the whole point of a transsexual having FFS is to make herself look like she feels inside. hormones, clothes, hair and even SRS to some degree serve the same purpose. while i agree with lots of what has been said, i don't see the relevance to transsexuals and FFS.


naming 10 or 15 (or even 1000)    :eusa_wall:     women that were past or present leaders out of the millions and millions of men is a pretty weak argument IMO




beth

Quote:  I don't believe that anything was said about can't, only that the reasons be for yourself.

I didn't mean cant in the sense of cannot but in the sense of cant by Webster's definition:
phraseology or language peculiar to a particular class--ie feminists.  I think dogma would have been a better word.

I agree total support may be more harmful than good but this was straying a long way from the pros and cons of FFS.  The philosopical discussion of gender role and male privilege belongs somewhere else.

Cailyn

<<< I agree total support may be more harmful than good but this was straying a long way from the pros and cons of FFS.  The philosopical discussion of gender role and male privilege belongs somewhere else. >>>

That may be your opinion, but I totally disagree.  If we are speaking to "when" a person should consider FFS, than I think you ought first consider "If" a person should consider FFS. 

And IMNSHO, I do not think anyone should, based on the reasons I've stated.  If someone chooses to go along with the whims of the patriarchy, that is their choice alone.  But, it does not change the fact, that by doing so, you are supporting the patriarchy and everything it stands for.

Women are oppressed. Women are held to standards of beauty that men are not. Women are expected to look this way/or that to be considered acceptable. Men make it easy to comply with their cookie-cutter approach by creating FFS.  Men help support a media that makes woman objects of desire with no substance.

So, women feel pressured to comply or to feel/be inadequate, based on a man's opinion of what a woman should be/look like.

Going along with the patriarchal system men have set up to alter women is supporting that system.  Woman have the choice to choose to do nothing instead.  "If," not "When."

As was mentioned "when" comes after "if". Note the title of this thread.

Also, I was advised 18 months after HRT starts before any surgery. (To give time for hormones to do their work, which should help the surgeon get things in proportion.)

Quote from: Thundra on August 12, 2005, 10:24:48 PM

And IMNSHO, I do not think anyone should, based on the reasons I've stated.  If someone chooses to go along with the whims of the patriarchy, that is their choice alone.  But, it does not change the fact, that by doing so, you are supporting the patriarchy and everything it stands for. 

You are making one huge unsupportable assumption and overgeneralization; that is, simply because a woman chooses to have FFS, that her choice necessarily supports the patriarchy.  This is nonsense because an enlightened woman can make such a choice entirely outside the bounds of the patriarchy to satisfy HER idea of what her face should look like or what a woman is.  It may have NOTHING to do with beauty as defined by soceity or otherwise.  You are actually insulting those women who can think, live, and act outside the patriarchy and make choices that are entirely their own.  Sorry, you do not speak for me. 

Quote from: Thundra on August 12, 2005, 10:24:48 PM

Women are oppressed. Women are held to standards of beauty that men are not. Women are expected to look this way/or that to be considered acceptable. Men make it easy to comply with their cookie-cutter approach by creating FFS.  Men help support a media that makes woman objects of desire with no substance.   

The first three statements are true, the fourth is nonsense.  FFS exists because there is a demand for it and the reasons for the demand is far more complex than your tired feminist dogma suggests.  The last is true and FFS is the least of worries in the general sexual objectification of women.  Media stories about attractive white women in distress--the runaway bride or several prominent kidnapping cases and the general increase in media violence against women--those are the things that worry me more.

Quote from: Thundra on August 12, 2005, 10:24:48 PM

So, women feel pressured to comply or to feel/be inadequate, based on a man's opinion of what a woman should be/look like.   

Overgeneralizaton and assumption.  Many women do; not all women do.

Quote from: Thundra on August 12, 2005, 10:24:48 PM

Going along with the patriarchal system men have set up to alter women is supporting that system.  Woman have the choice to choose to do nothing instead.  "If," not "When."

Do nothing?  How about step ahead in the world on their own?  How about overcoming oppression and, as the best revenge against the patriarchy, living well?  Damned if I'll do nothing.

Cailyn

<<< You are making one huge unsupportable assumption and overgeneralization; that is, simply because a woman chooses to have FFS, that her choice necessarily supports the patriarchy.  This is nonsense because an enlightened woman can make such a choice entirely outside the bounds of the patriarchy to satisfy HER idea of what her face should look like or what a woman is. >>>

I am happy that you hold your opinion so passionately, but.......
I strongly disagree.  In my book, your either support the patriarchy, our you do not.  Line in the sand on this one. I fully acknowledge your right to have your own opinion, to express it, and to the absolute right to follow thru on your decision.  Please, go and have the FFS procedure.  But, make no mistake here.  That choice is going to alienate you from some other womyn out there, not just myself.  Simply stated, we are both women, but we are enemies too.  I see you as a collaborator in the war twixt the sexes. I see you aiding and abetting the enemy. As a women, I am always happy to see another making choices available for herself.  But, I see this as a very unwise choice.

My word Thundra! You do live up to your name. Such declarative statements. I guess I'm safe from your enemies list as I do not desire FFS or breast implants. I am rather fond of my natural beauty. But this line in the sand thing!

By your reasoning of not cowtowing to the male patriarchy, you should not go in for SRS as the male patriarchy holds that a woman must have a vagina. In which case I might still make that enemies list as I have every intention of getting that surgery.

QuoteSimply stated, we are both women, but we are enemies too.  I see you as a collaborator in the war twixt the sexes. I see you aiding and abetting the enemy. As a woman, I am always happy to see another making choices available for herself.

If you support the choice does not this make you a collaborator in the war too? I would consider carefully such a position it tends to put ones back against the wall. And what of the FTMs are they also going to make the enemies list because they go for Masculinization FMS, or chest correction?

I respect your opinion and understand your desire to be a freedom fighter for women but I find hardline dogma, narrow and restrictive. Too often it is foisted on those who like those things which the opposing side seems to find so offensive, even though some in the opposing side did not intend for such to be so.

It's like when hardline feminist rail against some guy for opening a door for them. Personally I like guys to hold the door for me but these days that gets hard to come by as many are understandably gun shy. I sure hope that is not the battle flag you are flying.


Good Journey,

Cassie

QuoteAs was mentioned "when" comes after "if". Note the title of this thread.

Hello everyone.

Kimberly mentioned this earlier

QuoteAs was mentioned "when" comes after "if". Note the title of this thread.

Please note the title of the tread.  While this debate is very interesting I don't think that you are answering her initial question -

QuoteThough I feel unfortunately certain that I will never pass with the exact facial structure I currently possess. I am, however, not sure how long after HRT has started that one can get a general idea of what their face will eventually look like. This makes it difficult to estimate exactly what needs to be done.

*ponders*

This leads me to the question of when one should consider FFS?

maybe Thundra could start another new topic on wether FFS is right or wrong?  Hint, hint.

Chat later Steph

Quote from: ThundraPlease, go and have the FFS procedure.  But, make no mistake here.  That choice is going to alienate you from some other womyn out there, not just myself.  Simply stated, we are both women, but we are enemies too.  I see you as a collaborator in the war twixt the sexes. I see you aiding and abetting the enemy. As a women, I am always happy to see another making choices available for herself.  But, I see this as a very unwise choice.

I've had FFS.  I am not beautiful, I am not pretty, I don't consider myself attractive which is okay because I have no interest in men or women.  I am assexual so my looks are immaterial to my existence beyond my reflection in the mirror.  You have ignored one of the most obvious reasons a woman would have facial surgery besides attempting to adhere to some arbitrary standard of beauty: to correct a birth defect.  As a woman, I hated the effects testosterone had rendered on my face.  My surgery did not beautify me, it simply removed the effects of testosterone and left my face as it would have had I been born a natal woman.  See me as a collaborator if you wish.  You miss the essence of the pain I suffered with that face.  I doubt we'd be having this discussion if I had a cleft palate surgically corrected instead.  With so much blatant sexism and sexual oppression in the world, perhaps you've forgotten what the real issues are?

Cailyn

[edit] Fixed the quote box[/edit]

quote from thundra,


"I think that by trying to 'fit(ting) a female norm' as you phrase it, is dangerous, if not deluded. My point, is that there is no norm.  I think that you are drawing on too small a sample of the female population in making your statement of generality.

Woman come in every size and shape. You might be very surprised by some of the women you might meet, then methinks, because I've no doubt you would not know some of them were not men?  For instance, I had a roommate, that had the biggest %$#@#$%^ head I have ever seen.  It, was, huge.  And she was built larger and was stronger than almost all of the men she worked with, but she was still a natal female.  And, she is not an aberation, or just "the exception.""


I do not doubt for a second, that if 100 women and 100 men of all ages were photographed without makeup or hair, that i could determine the birth sex of each. i might miss a few, which does make her an exception. let's get real here. thundra, what you are saying does apply to women born in female bodies that just want make their appearance more conforming to the patriarchy defined idea of beauty,  i agree completely. all women are so very beautiful just as they are. women born with a deformed face are not the same. a large deformity causes people they meet to focus on the defect and not the person. a woman born without a nose could have that defect repaired without "supporting the patriarchy" just as a woman born with a man's face could have her defect repaired with FFS. If a woman appears to be a man (i wont use the P word) she can be accepted by those who know her well, but those that do not know her will make unfair judgements that will not allow them to see who she is or get to know her. this should not be the case but unfortunately it is. FFS for MTF transsexuals that have a male appearing face is not the same as elective cosmetic surgery for those that already appear female. Men did not decide what a female looks like naturally. men decided how a "beautiful" woman is built, height, weight her facial features, her hair, clothes etc. and they decided how we should act to meet their convoluted approval.  :icon_dance:       FFS should change male facial characteristics to more closely match those of females. FFS should make you appear more like you would have if your were not born with this terrible birth defect. adding male determined beauty enhancements to the surgery does help to perpetuate male defined beauty and adds to the burden of all women.

beth

<sigh>

<<<< just as a woman born with a man's face could have her defect repaired with FFS. >>>>

You are simply not getting it!   The point is, that there are no men's faces and women's faces.  And the differences that one might see tend to disappear with age! If anything, a woman that chooses to have any kind of facial surgery is more notieable and tends to blend in less as she ages.  If the reason for most people that chose to have FFS is to "pass," than they are accomplishing the opposite!  They are drawing attention to themselves.


<<<< If a woman appears to be a man (i wont use the P word) she can be accepted by those who know her well, but those that do not know her will make unfair judgements that will not allow them to see who she is or get to know her. this should not be the case but unfortunately it is. >>>>

But what about all of the natal females that suffer that very indignity?  One of my ex's always got picked on when she went into the women's room, based on how she was dressed, and she was like, a 50EEE?  Unfortunately, people have been conditioned to act a certain way <stupid> and that is not gonna change with FFS.  Someone somewhere is always going to find a reason to pick on someone else to make themselves feel better.

If you spend the rest of your life trying to anticipate the needs of what other people expect from you, and the rest of your time and energy trying to placate them, then how will you find time to live life and enjoy yourself? You cannot enjoy the world if you are stuck in a permanent state of self-criticism, and waiting to do that one last thing to fix yourself.  I have seen so many peeps do all kinda stuff to try and "pass," and someone always reads them, because they are trying to pass.  You cannot fool all of the people all of the time.  There is no point in passing.

<<<< FFS for MTF transsexuals that have a male appearing face is not the same as elective cosmetic surgery for those that already appear female. Men did not decide what a female looks like naturally. men decided how a "beautiful" woman is built, height, weight her facial features, her hair, clothes etc. and they decided how we should act to meet their convoluted approval. >>>>

How can you say that?  If you are a woman, just like them, then FFS is as cosmetic in nature for you, as it is for them, cause there is no you and them, there are only women.

And if you know that men's approval is convoluted, then why are you wasting your time to try and earn it?  As my 80 year old mother would say, that does not make any sense.

"You are simply not getting it!   The point is, that there are no men's faces and women's faces."

we simply disagree on this point, i believe there is a difference that can be seen by most people. if you were right, and there were no differences then there would be no need for FFS, but there is a need for many transsexuals. just tonite i saw a documentary on women who bodybuild and take testosterone and it was obvious in their faces and voices. you may know of exceptions but that does not support your position that there is no difference in facial features between men and women. Your position is that if we took a group of men and women, shaved their heads and took portraits that no one could tell the men from the women? i find that absurd. would their be some in the group that were exceptions? yes, i agree.


"How can you say that?  If you are a woman, just like them, then FFS is as cosmetic in nature for you, as it is for them, cause there is no you and them, there are only women."

you lost me with this logic, i was born with a penis also, so some women have a penis and i should keep mine?


"And if you know that men's approval is convoluted, then why are you wasting your time to try and earn it?  As my 80 year old mother would say, that does not make any sense."

where did that come from? i never said FFS was for mens approval, that is you position. you are not making sense. i could care less what men think of me. i am personally not getting FFS because i don't think it is necessary at my age with my face. it is appropriate for many MTFs though.



beth

I have seen this thread through many posts whether it be about makeup, high heels or surgery.

What happened to personal choice made based on personal feelings and perception. Why when someone raises pratices of feminisation such as clothing, makeup and even surgery is it assumed by some that it must be to satisfy men. Are women truly this easy to be manipulated by men and are TG women this easily manipulated by men. I think not.

I think that these decisions are made based on aligning what the world sees with the perceived image of the individual and not on external pressures. Undergoing surgery is a personal choice and while a very serious choice non the less one made by an individual to meet that individuals needs.

I personally find this "done to satisfy men" comment more closely aligned to the TG's being grouped in with Gays thinking. The thinking that that person is TG and therefore Gay shows ignorance of the TG issue. We represent like other sectors of society a wide cross-section of society, some gay some not, some undecided and some sure. There is quite likely some who do things to please men but by indicating that we all are doing what we do is for that reason is like saying we must all be gay.

We are all individuals although many of us are confused by the TGism we find ourselves in. I wish to celebrate those who make clear decisions on the direction they wish to follow. I see a need to have open discussion with those who make decisions, particularly those who choose the very serious steps of surgery, to ensure that they have considered all ramifications and risks. I cannot however agree with those who profess to know the inner thinkings of others. I also find those that try to slot their reasoning into very small pigeon holes a little concerning. Is that not what our detractors do.

Understanding and support do not require judgement. Understanding and support can need guidance but once a decision is made for personal growth only support is needed and perhaps access to shared experiences.

I therefore wish to support those who make decisions for themselves and want to also let them know that whatever path is chosen by an individual here I support your right to make that choice. At the same time some of those choices are not for me and that is the point. Choices made by others are not for me, they are for them, and are based on their reasoning and it would be wrong for me to apply my thinking to their choice other than in my own circumstances.

I also support therefore the right of people here to discuss what is not for them but not the right to judge what is right for others. I believe that to be the tenent behind the rule to argue the topic and not against the individual. I therefore also invite others to discuss whether this works for them but discourage judgement calls against me or my thinking. That is of course unless I break the rules of Susans and encroach upon the rights of others.

I shall now step down from my soap box and go about my daily business.

Shelley

Very well said, Shelley, I agree with you 200%.  Do what you feel is right for you.

I have to agree Shelley

To answer Kimberly's question...

QuoteThis leads me to the question of when one should consider FFS?

I think it's quite simple - You should consider FFS when you believe if will make you feel better about yourself.  What anyone else thinks doesn't mean monkeys, and who cares.  I do things for me not for anyone else, and if there are those who don't agree, then guess what - I don't care :)

If you want it - do it - and do it well  :)

Steph

Personally I have no plans for FFS as I believe I have said earlier in this thread. I have found that at least in the community were I live when people see me they see a woman. Even many who had seen me around before as a man do not recognise me. If however everywhere I went people pointed stared laughed or whatever and no one saw me as a woman I would be waiting in line to get FFS.

There are many transwomen out there who simply cannot pass no matter how hard they try and for them FFS is something of a necessity if they ever expect to be seen as a woman by others. Now not that what others think should matter a hill of beans but in the real world this is what is needed by some to be accepted by society as what and who they are. If they need that acceptance as part of their feeling whole then they should do it. I don't think it is very constructive to criticize or condemn someone for doing something they feel they need to do and saying that they are somehow cow towing to a male dominated view of women.

If you want FFS then get it and don't give what anyone else thinks a second thought. If you think now is the time then just do it. When is the time? Like Steph said;

QuoteYou should consider FFS when you believe if will make you feel better about yourself.

Good Journey,

Cassie

Strictly speaking there is a time and place for all things, and any ol time for FFS really isn't the (optimal) time.

I was told I should not consider surgeries until approximately 18 months after HRT had started. This is mainly due to how FFS (for example) is done and how facial features change during HRT. ... In short one does not want to get a new nose to match their existing face, which is in the process of changing.

Hello Kimberly,

I don't think you have to worry about HRT changing the physical features of your face.  The surgery remoulds your facial bone structure from a male form to that of the female.  Although HRT can and often redistributes body fat, smooths and softens skin it has very little effect, if any, on bone structure.  FFS is not the same as a face lift, although a face lift is all that some need.

Generally FFS involves cutting the jaw bone and removing bone to make it rounder,  removing bone and remoulding the bridge of the nose, and removing bone from the cheek bones and the brow line to make them less prominent.  But you probably knew that.  Being on HRT should have no bearing on "when" surgery should take place, except that some surgeons want HRT stopped prior to the procedure.

I would think that for a young person who is still growing may or should have to wait.  Cailyn has had FFS so she would have a great perspective on this, although I can't remember if she was on HRT.

Just my thoughts, chat later

Steph :)

People say that you pass from the neck up.

I believe FFs is the most important stuff MtFs can do to pass

Gail

In my mind, I have a priority list:

1.  GRS -- For my sense of wholeness and correctness.

2.  Voice surgery, assuming voice therapy doesn't do it alone, and that they (finally) come up with a technique with a good success rate and that doesn't make one sound weird.

3.  FFS, assuming I need it.

4.  Orthodontia.

Reason for Voice surgery as #2, I don't want to be constantly 'sir'd on the phone, and I'd like to be able to participate in converstations, rather than just sitting there looking good...

Karen

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on September 03, 2005, 01:33:42 AM
I don't think you have to worry about HRT changing the physical features of your face.  The surgery remoulds your facial bone structure from a male form to that of the female.  Although HRT can and often redistributes body fat, smooths and softens skin it has very little effect, if any, on bone structure.  FFS is not the same as a face lift, although a face lift is all that some need.

Stephanie, keep in mind though that FFS is frequently a combination of many procedures, both bone work and soft tissue modification such as a forehead lift, hairline adjustment, rhinoplasty, and others.

This is just speculation on my part, but there could be an issue in that some types of procedures could alter the way the skin adheres to the underlying structure; I can see a situation in which internal scarring or sutures might cause a 'snag' of sorts as the fat distribution of the face changes.

Advising against surgery until HRT is well under way might be justified, especially if a lot of these soft tissue procedures are contemplated.

Annie

Very true, and i believe that one would be very prudent to thoroughly research such procedures before embarking on them.

Steph

regarding fixing the voice, here's some information for you:
the male vocal apparatus grows larger than the female, due the permanent effects of testosterone; this over time comes to resonate according to its fundamental frequency, like the difference between a cello and a violin. To simplify this, to continue the analogy, the cello vibrates a bigger box. Put some smaller, 'violin' strings over that box (or shorten the vocal cords), it still won't really sound like a violin, it will sound peculiar, and like neither instrument. This is why (unless the singer is especially gifted) you can tell the difference between a man and a woman singing the same part. Fixing the voice this way tends to just create a permanent falsetto, sounds like Jack Lemmon or Tony Curtis in "Some Like It Hot".
The thing about a female voice to me is its musicality; I don't imagine this sort of result tends to be a very musical sound.

Karen, if you hear Andrea James talk about it on her excellent voice training materials, she warns against voice surgery, saying the effects aren't that good and you still have to train that voice too. But she warns it can really damage your voice permeanently. Just a caution.

 I am almost certainly going to undergo FFS at some point, simply because I detest the size of my brow.  Even if, by the time I sort out all of the emotions and confused feelings, I decide  not to transition, I will have some surgery to reduce my brow bone.  I want to be able to pass as a woman some day, even if just for the occasional night out.  If this somehow "supports the patriarchy", whatever.  I would do it for me.  To be more attractive to women, and to have the image in the mirror be closer to what I feel inside.  Whether I have FFS or simply some cosmetic surgery is a matter of where my current road takes me.

I think there are a lot of men who would like to have less pronounced facial features, or even be a bit closer to feminine.  Feminine faces attract both sexes.

Oh, and there are standards of male beauty too.  I have been a not-handsome guy long enough to know that it matters. Genetic males do not possess the monopoly on superficiality.

Lastly...I seriously doubt that FFS resulted from a group of *gasp* male doctors sitting around having drinks. and one suggesting "Hey, there are a lot of women and transsexuals out there who do not look as good as we think they should look.  Let's pioneer a surgery to make them fit our standards and exploit them for what little money we actually allow them to make!"

Jonna

From my particular point of view:

I pass and very well, my face structure is femenine and even my brow bossing is similar to the one my sister have, so my face is still in the female range.

Will I want FFS... Hell yes, to get rid of something that I believe doesnt belong there (just like my genitals) and ceirtainly will help so I will look even better.

Quote from: tinkerbell on June 13, 2006, 12:48:12 AM
Today a very famous FFS surgeon in SAN FRANCISCO is charging almost U$45, 000 for this type of procedure, so as you can see, it isn't an option for everyone.

Ousterhout bumped his price up to $45K?  Last I knew, he was charging about 30K.  Fortunately I don't plan on getting FFS.  A few months on hormones did the trick.  A couple more years will do wonders.

Melissa

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, sory I just spent the last hour responding to this and closed the wrong browser tab and lost everything I wrote, ARHG. anyway I will resurrect some of the main points

In reguards to the main point of the thread, when to get FFS. I actually had the same question, and IMO it might be advisable just to get a professional opinion from a FFS sergion or someone who knows a lot on the effects of HRT. And if you're concerned with passabillity, just play around with photoshop or a similar program. You'll probably find, as I did, that hair and eyebrows can make all the difference in looking male or female.

In responce to who said there are no male or female faces, sorry but thats just ignorant. Take a look around, I asure you'll notice that the majority of men have the predominant brow, less rounded forehead, and more square jaw. there are definite differences. Granted there are those who arent "typical", Sigourney Weaver and Leonardo DiCaprio, are just a couple of examples. and then keep in mind race plays a factor too. Asians have a more neutral facial structure, while euro-caucasians have more distinct differences in facial structure between sexes.

Unfortunatally, Social expectations do play a huge part in an individuals comfort in life. If you look like a "typical" female, In our society it will be much easier for you to live a comfortable life as a TS woman, I dont necesarilly agree with it, but its a fact of life these days.

To put it simply (as others have already said) do it for you, if you're happy without FFS then dont get FFS, if it will make you happier or more comfortable to get FFS, then do it. Everyone has different reasons for doing what they do, so if you want to do it, do it, reguardless of others opinions about why your doing it.

Hi girls:

FFS is a personal choice and you should only do it if you feel that it's going to make you feel more comfortable about yourself.  Most MTF don't need FFS, for HRT will feminize the face somewhat.   In addition, FFS is a very costly, long and complicated surgery....some physicians consider that  it is much easier to transplant a heart than it is to transform a face.  Likewise, the recovery time varies from person to person, and it can take up to a year to see the aftermath of the surgery in some people.
If you're considering FFS, please do some research first...there are many outstanding surgeons in the US who perform an excellent job.  Here are three links of three different plastic surgeons whose work I cherish daily... ;)

http://www.yarishmd.com

http://picosmeticsurgery.com/pi-silver.htm

http://www.drdouglasousterhout.com/


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I've also heard that the surgery can result in numbness of some areas of the head, such as the very top.  I agree that many don't need it.  I thought I would need it for sure, but the changes I have experienced from HRT so far have been nothing short of miraculous.  I have heard that you get the maximum effects after a couple of years and more so after removal of the testicles and I've only been on HRT for 5 months.

Melissa