Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi ladies! So, the other day I was at my support group and one of the ladies there mentioned that because they weren't raised and socialized as a female, they didn't know any of the do's and don'ts of being a girl that all female bodied people are taught from a young age. At this point they all turned to me (the only FTM in the group) and asked me what some of those do's and don'ts are. I got thinking that this was probably a common problem you gals run into, so I thought I'd make a list and post it here.

Disclaimer: These are my own personal experiences and observations and are obviously not going to be universal. A lot of these are things that I'm trying to unlearn myself.

•   The first thing you should know is that girls are taught from a young age to be a little bit fearful. What I mean is that they are raised knowing that being raped, assaulted and/or murdered is a very real possibility. This isn't just being paranoid, statistics show that between ¼ to ½ of all women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. This means that they behave very differently in certain situations than a man would because they are aware that there is constant threat. This doesn't mean live your life in fear, it just means you need to be aware of your surroundings and avoid certain situations.

o   Don't walk down dark alleys alone at night. In fact, be extremely cautious of going anywhere alone at night. If you have too, be alert, pay attention to your surroundings. Don't be looking at your phone. If you're walking to your car, take your keys out of your purse before you enter the parking lot and walk with them in your hand.

o   Body language is a big factor in keeping you safe. Don't try to make yourself look small, don't hunch your shoulder down and keep your head looking at the ground. Put your shoulders back, your chin up and be looking around. And don't be afraid to glare at anyone you think is suspicious looking. Anyone who is looking to assault someone is looking for a victim: someone who is weak, easy prey and won't fight back. So, if you look like you know what they are up to and will fight back if they try anything, they will most likely leave you alone.

o   If you are at a club, bar or any type of similar setting, never leave your drink unattended. In fact, never let it out of your sight. Putting it down and looking away is exactly how you get roofied. And yes, people try that all the time. Pick it up, and don't put it down until you're done, or if you're sitting at a table, put it directly in your line of sight so you can see if anyone tries anything.

o   And on another note, at such places, always try to go to the restroom in groups of at least two. There's a reason women do this, it's because there is safety in numbers and restrooms at such places are great places to be assaulted. Think about it, you wander away from your group of friends alone, to the back of the club where there are fewer people, to a room with a door that locks. Perfect ambush opportunity.

o   Be cautious of men you don't know approaching you when you are alone. Your car breaking down on the side of the road is always a bad situation to find yourself in. Don't assume that everyone who stops and offers to help is doing so with good intentions.

o   Don't pick up hitchhikers. I feel like that should be self-explanatory.

•   <slut shaming portion removed> Admin

Are you scared yet? You've probably never had to think of any of these things before, but these are things women are always aware of. You don't have to live in fear, but a healthy dose of caution goes a long way to keeping you safe.

And now that I've made you completely paranoid, let's move on to lighter things. Some of these things many of you probably already know, but I'm trying to be thorough.

•   Skirts and dresses. There are few things to know about wearing skirts and dresses.

o   When you sit down wearing a skirt or dress, you never just sit down. This causes the skirt to gather underneath you uncomfortably and causes your skirt to wrinkle. What you do is this: you reach behind you with both hands, palms open flat, and gently pull the loose material of the back of the skirt forward until its resting against the back of your thighs. You do this as you are in the process of sitting down. It should be one fluid motion. Sweep your arms back, palms open, move the material while sitting down, and then bring your hand into your lap.

o   Always keep your knees together when sitting while wearing a skirt or dress. No one wants to see your underwear.

o   When you bend down to pick something up off the floor while wearing a skirt, you never bend over at the waist. You bend down with your knees to pick something up. Again, no one wants to see your underwear.

o   Bonus: how to walk in heels. The trick to walking in heels, is that you are not walking with your entire foot. You are only walking on the ball of your foot, or if you have really high heels, your tippy toes. If you're standing still, you can put your weight on your heel, but when walking only put weight on the balls of your feet. And when walking down stairs, hold onto the hand rail.

•   Women cross their legs when they are sitting down. It is something most of them do unconsciously. They sit down and immediately cross their legs. Either one thigh over the other, or at the ankles.

•   When women stand, they tend to put all their weight on only one leg at a time. If you've notices how most of the time women have their hips canted when they are standing, it is because of this. Put all your weight on one leg and kind of relax the knee of the other leg so it is slightly bent.

•   Women carry things differently than men do. Women's bodies are different than men's bodies, which yes you already knew, but probably not in this way. Men are built to work, so they are stronger in their shoulders and upper bodies, and have a center of mass that is higher up on the body than women. Women are built to carry babies. This means that their center of mass, and the strongest, most balanced part of their body is the hips. So, when women carry things, especially heavy things, they carry them on their hips not their shoulders. For example, when carrying a laundry basket, women will often hold it in one hand and rest the other end against their hip, either in front of them or to the side. Or if they're carrying a bag of something heavy, they carry it in both arms, low in front of their bodies, and rest the weight on their hip bones.

•   When women make eye contact with someone, they smile. Even if you don't know the person, still give at least a small smile. Okay this is kind of a generalization, but it seems to be a thing most women do and what is expected of them.

•   Women listen to every single word that comes out of someone's mouth and always have some kind of reply or comment afterwards. According to my mother, men do this thing where they tune someone out if they don't think they're saying anything important (which I agree with because I do this all the time). But women always listen to everything that someone is saying, no matter what the topic. So, no matter how many times a day your mother has to tell you about the exploits of all the birds at the bird feeder, you have to listen to every word and each time have an appropriately enthusiastic response.

•   Women look someone in the eye or in the face when they are talking. Yes, this is a normal social thing for everyone, but women tend to do it more so than men do. In other words, women are less likely to look away during the conversation than men are. Women also tend to lean forward toward the other person when speaking to or listening to each other.

•    Women compliment each other, a lot. They even do it to women they don't know, but it is especially common among women that they do know. For example, "that's a nice shirt" "I love your hair" "where did you get those shoes."

•   It's a lot more acceptable for a woman to show her emotions than it is for a man.

•   Women carry things in purses, and never in their pockets. Except for maybe Chapstick or their phone.

Wow, that was the longest post I've ever made in my life. I'll probably have more things to add as I think of them. Or if anyone else wants to add feel free.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I don't mind talking about it. Just be warned, I'm FTM and I kind of made a lousy girl.

Thank you,  good tips!

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

Wow, that's the most exhaustive masterclass I've ever seen on the subject!  I hope that someone with the power adds something to your Susan's Place reputation.

This is incredible! Thank you!

As a MAAB I am astounded by how many of those things I already do and have always done. Carrying things at the hip, putting weight on just one leg, walking on the ball of the foot, crossing legs, etc... are all things I have been doing forever. Even the innate fear and slight distrust of others that you mentioned is there, though that could be from a number of different things that have happened to me.

If I decide to transition that main thing I would need to work on is eye contact. I get some anxiety making eye contact with strangers, and even around friends I tend to look away a lot due to low confidence.

I don't remember being taught most of those things at all. That's why I got into quite a few difficult situations.

But yeah, I'd say they're probably helpful here.

Wow, great list!

I'm curious, for the long term HRT mtf's here, do you tend to notice yourself naturally changing the way you carry things to the hip "method" given the shoulder muscle loss/general body changes?

As a male to female transgender (MTF), beginning my transition at age 50, this is valuable information to me. I can surmise a lot is common sense. A lot - I missed out on growing up as a boy. I am trying hard to break masculine habits in lieu of more feminine mannerisms. To mention, congratulations on your transition FTM. I have begun to realize that as quick as I want this transition to take place, it is not as simple as that. It seems that I have begun to choreograph a ballet of steps to get from point A to point B. Meaning managing time, money, insurance, work, and day-to-day activities, that allow for my transition to move forward. It is a journey.

Thank you for taking the time to put pen to paper.

Cheers! Sky Michelle

Actually, additional random question playing into this topic... Are there any good "femininity practice" hobbies to take up? Things that may perhaps contribute to training a few of the socialized feminine mannerisms that aren't necessarily nature (I feel like sitting a certain way is natural to a degree for contrast, or at least my sister who I'm not out to always makes fun of me for sitting like her). This was my thinking taking up yoga a bit, in that it feels like it encourages very feminine movements, and would be good practice for posture if nothing else (something men often just ignore outside of the military), so now I'm wondering if there may be other ideas like this. 

Quote from: Roll on September 12, 2017, 09:59:01 PM
Actually, additional random question playing into this topic... Are there any good "femininity practice" hobbies to take up? Things that may perhaps contribute to training a few of the socialized feminine mannerisms that aren't necessarily nature (I feel like sitting a certain way is natural to a degree for contrast, or at least my sister who I'm not out to always makes fun of me for sitting like her). This was my thinking taking up yoga a bit, in that it feels like it encourages very feminine movements, and would be good practice for posture if nothing else (something men often just ignore outside of the military), so now I'm wondering if there may be other ideas like this.

AFAB here.

If you're a gamer, start playing the healer. The abundance of women in the role goes beyond the old women = nurturing stereotype. It's that the skillset required plays to the strengths of what women are socialized to do. You need to by hyper-aware of everyone's position, needs, etc. A good healer will also pay attention to their teammates individual quirks, keep an eye on others' emotional state and how it's effecting their risk-taking, know exactly how their friends are going to react in any given situation, etc. Seriously, if you want a glimpse into the mindset women are traditionally expected to live with, it's the best one I can suggest.

Another thing that I'm pretty sure helps with trans people of all genders is singing. The vocal techniques you learn when singing make you aware of stuff that you normally wouldn't think of when you speak. And that knowledge, in turn, can be applied to altering your speaking voice.

Quote from: Sky Michelle on September 12, 2017, 09:14:00 PM
As a male to female transgender (MTF), beginning my transition at age 50, this is valuable information to me. I can surmise a lot is common sense. A lot - I missed out on growing up as a boy. I am trying hard to break masculine habits in lieu of more feminine mannerisms. To mention, congratulations on your transition FTM. I have begun to realize that as quick as I want this transition to take place, it is not as simple as that. It seems that I have begun to choreograph a ballet of steps to get from point A to point B. Meaning managing time, money, insurance, work, and day-to-day activities, that allow for my transition to move forward. It is a journey.

Thank you for taking the time to put pen to paper.

Cheers! Sky Michelle

Dear Sky Michelle
Welcome to Susan's

Many of the things in the list are things that will become second nature and only require you to think about them for a short time. Please feel free to drop by our Introduction Forum  (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) and tell us a little more about yourself. Glad to see you jump right into the conversation. 

A Cautionary Note:
This is a public forum so please remember when posting that The Internet Never Forgets, and the various web crawlers and archival sites out there may retain information that you post.

We cannot ensure that any information you share on the site will be protected from public view and/or copying or reproduction. This warning is also listed in the Terms of Service listed below.

If you give out personal information on Susan's you are responsible for any consequence.


I also want to share some links with you. They include helpful information and the rules that govern the site.  It is important for your enjoyment of the site to take a moment to go through them

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)

Great post!

Quote from: kylen kantari on September 12, 2017, 03:31:27 PM
No one wants to see your underwear.

Well, the guys do.  ;)

Quote from: MaryT on September 12, 2017, 03:51:08 PM
I hope that someone with the power adds something to your Susan's Place reputation.

Click the green thumbs up icon underneath the word Reputation.

Quote from: KarynMcD on September 13, 2017, 05:30:32 AM
Click the green thumbs up icon underneath the word Reputation.

I can't see a thumbs up icon.  Is it something that Newbies don't have yet?

Great post, thanks! Positive reputation given.

Quote from: Roll on September 12, 2017, 09:59:01 PM
Actually, additional random question playing into this topic... Are there any good "femininity practice" hobbies to take up? Things that may perhaps contribute to training a few of the socialized feminine mannerisms that aren't necessarily nature (I feel like sitting a certain way is natural to a degree for contrast, or at least my sister who I'm not out to always makes fun of me for sitting like her). This was my thinking taking up yoga a bit, in that it feels like it encourages very feminine movements, and would be good practice for posture if nothing else (something men often just ignore outside of the military), so now I'm wondering if there may be other ideas like this.

I've started an online class for basic belly dancing. It helps me to learn to move more gracefully and to shift my balance to a more feminine posture. Also, I found an online workout for women that want to improve their posture. It only takes 10 minutes and I try to do it every morning.

Quote from: kylen kantari on September 12, 2017, 03:31:27 PM

•   Women carry things differently than men do.

I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

Quote from: widdershins on September 13, 2017, 03:33:26 AM
AFAB here.

If you're a gamer, start playing the healer. The abundance of women in the role goes beyond the old women = nurturing stereotype. It's that the skillset required plays to the strengths of what women are socialized to do. You need to by hyper-aware of everyone's position, needs, etc. A good healer will also pay attention to their teammates individual quirks, keep an eye on others' emotional state and how it's effecting their risk-taking, know exactly how their friends are going to react in any given situation, etc. Seriously, if you want a glimpse into the mindset women are traditionally expected to live with, it's the best one I can suggest.

That's hilarious to me you mention that, because I'm always stuck as the healer. Didn't necessarily want to be, but inevitably I was. And a pretty damn good one. :D

Quote
Another thing that I'm pretty sure helps with trans people of all genders is singing. The vocal techniques you learn when singing make you aware of stuff that you normally wouldn't think of when you speak. And that knowledge, in turn, can be applied to altering your speaking voice.

I've never been much of a singer, but have been trying vocal lessons of late for this very reason.

Such a great list, here's a few extras:
Your hands are another cue, males don't usually 'talk with their hands' and close the palms off, by pointing them in towards themselves, females do more 'hand talking' and the palms are open, and pointing at the person they are conversing with, and quite often reflexively open whilst walking too.
Flexibility/strength alters the way we all move, and females are generally more flexible, and less strong than males, and it shows in movement. If you're not strong, your muscles cannot 'force' a change in direction quickly, so male movement appears fast, and rigid snapping from position to position. Relax, and be fluid - smoothly transition from one position to the next, it's why I love ballet.

*off to YouTube to watch some more dance videos*

Rowan

Thanks Kylen, a lot of those I've known, practiced some and of course not so much others over the years. The bar thjngs, especially guarding a drink to not br roofied and risks of being trapped in the loo were new things.

I've said in my own transition thread, while I know how to sit ladylike, knees together and that's what I do when there are people around, when I'm solo I enjoy knowing I'm exposing myself and I like knowing I could any time I wanted to. I'm just not really cut out to be a good girl though I also try to keep that in context. My gf isn't cut out that way either, she doesn't flash people or anything but she's very given to fluffing up her breasts and doesn't really think about that in public.

About some of the habits of motion or stereotypical feminine activities, I've always been attracted to the latter and as I began transition 20 years ago, I realized that I do most of my activities in a feminine way. So for instance in rock climbing I rely far more on balance, precise foot placement and smooth movements than on strength or power. The stereotypical masculine things I've done usually were executed with a more feminine style or flair, for instance I have really good balance on a motorcycle.

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

I was quite surprised back when I studied biology at university to find the biological female arm is physically angled differently from the male arm at the elbow joint... another subtle example of sexual dimorphism in our species. This could explain in part why they do this, as it might actually be more physically comfortable for them to hold things in a different way to men. I never noticed how I held things myself, but if there's literally a different bone structure, it's going to affect how we carry things, however slightly. . . 

That's interesting Viktor, I had never considered that, but I still believe there is a social component there.  For example if I would have carried my books like a girl at my all boys Catholic prep school back in the 70s? 
I would have gotten the stuffing beat out of me.

Also, I find it interesting how women carry grocery baskets at the market.  Holding their arm at a right angle to their body with the forearm supporting the weight of the basket. Like carrying a purse.  While men carry the basket down low with the weight supported by a hand grip.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I started carrying it like a woman and I must say it's not natural for me, but it's another way to blend and be read as female.

I carried things cradled in my arms for a long time, it just felt natural to me.  I stopped because of people making fun of me.  That was back in the late 80's, it also corresponded with the time frame of people making fun of the way I walked, which was by saying "you walk like a girl" I wish then that I knew what I know now, it probably would have saved me from some odd bits in my life.  Then again, I could have suffered more, who knows.

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

I've noticed that myself! I used to carry them at the hip if it was just 1 or 2, but I've seen a lot of men carrying them, as you say, like a football, above the hip with their elbow sticking out. I assume by doing that their occupying more space & thus enhancing their physical presence.

I've always switched back and forth on how I carry things based on how well it fit in one hand.

I've heard that girls carrying things in front of them was something they learned when they hit puberty to protect their growing breasts from getting hit. Many of us know that pain.

Carrying purses and the like: the first time I saw my daughter carry something on her arm like that I was really surprised. It wasn't something we taught her, she just did it. She was like two or three at the time.

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

I've never carried books under my arm myself, although I never thought of it as a woman thing.  I'm just afraid of dropping them.  I'm not well educated, but I love books.  I'm horrified when they drop and get dented, torn or dirtied.  I nearly fainted when my father used one of his books to whack a creepy crawly, and it wasn't because I love insects. 

It could be because I'm not an intellectual, as I suppose that intellectuals are only interested in the wisdom within the books, not the books themselves.  Being protective of books might be a woman thing, though, as I remember my grandmother showing me at an early age how to care for books, including how to turn the pages.

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM

Also, I find it interesting how women carry grocery baskets at the market.  Holding their arm at a right angle to their body with the forearm supporting the weight of the basket. Like carrying a purse.  While men carry the basket down low with the weight supported by a hand grip.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I started carrying it like a woman and I must say it's not natural for me, but it's another way to blend and be read as female.

Oh great, now i am going to be self-conscious about carrying the grocery basket :) Seriously though, these little things are amazing. I know i have some of both sorts of mannerisms, more of the female no doubt.

Those baskets are awkward to begin with, at least the style with the two handles that pinch your fingers and don't quite balance right if you have anything at all in the basket (the weight of milk being the big thing). Most women I see with the baskets (which is kind of rare, I'm in a "use a buggy for every other week stock up" sort of area) carry them all sorts of different ways depending on the weight and balance of the basket. Those with light objects (cereal, random small things) definitely do the out-in-front method, but anyone with a heavier load tends to carry it like most men do hanging down below/at the waist (more like a briefcase or laptop bag maybe?).

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM
That's interesting Viktor, I had never considered that, but I still believe there is a social component there.  For example if I would have carried my books like a girl at my all boys Catholic prep school back in the 70s? 
I would have gotten the stuffing beat out of me.

Also, I find it interesting how women carry grocery baskets at the market.  Holding their arm at a right angle to their body with the forearm supporting the weight of the basket. Like carrying a purse.  While men carry the basket down low with the weight supported by a hand grip.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I started carrying it like a woman and I must say it's not natural for me, but it's another way to blend and be read as female.

Oh yes, I'm sure there's a social component. I vividly remember how girls used to carry their bags and coats in school, coats over the arm or against the body, bags over the shoulder to the side, versus the way boys used to carry theirs, coats over the shoulder or down in one hand, bags usually backpack-style. I don't recall any of them mixing and matching it, except perhaps myself. The anomaly that I was. I don't remember noticing it back then either, but the memory image is fresh in mind still.

I don't remember the boys ever discussing it, but I do remember the girls policing each other in terms of how they walked, what they looked like and how they generally carried things and themselves.

Hey, Kylen!  Awesome list.  I never noticed the handbasket thing myself . . . I'll be sure not to carry it in the crook of my arm in future. 

I can only think of one thing to add to your advice--women make "affirmative comments" when they listen to other people, especially other women.  An affirmative comment is like "Mmm,"  "Oh!"  or, "Really!"  You technically can talk over the other person, but not in a way that shuts out what they're saying.   You're encouraging them to say more.  I can remember hearing my mother on the phone listening to a female friend complain: "Oh no!"  "I'm so sorry," "He didn't!"  "That's terrible!"  Affirmative comments are all you would hear.

Affirmative comments are the grease that keeps female to female (and often female to male) communication going.  If you stop saying those encouraging little phrases, a sensitive female acquaintance will assume you're not interested, and shut down.  Some men will keep talking, but the ones with better social skills won't.  If you were ever wondering how women can find out such intimate details about their friends, affirmative comments have a lot to do with it.   (Also, it's worth noting that you can't fake interest for long.  You have to encourage people to keep talking and actually be interested in what they're saying.) 

Women can usually critique everything,  and get away with it. I should know. I work with a 95% GG(genetic girl) workforce population, born and raised as one and I have heard all manners of discussion. Even some across the aisles comment with others on the other side direct and indirect conversations.

Quote from: KarynMcD on September 13, 2017, 05:30:32 AM
Great post!Well, the guys do.  ;)

That made me smile, it reminded of an awarkard situation at a friend's wedding about 10 years ago, we were all having fun on the dance floor, when I sat down for a drink cocktail, a guy whispered in my ear ''I love the color of your underwear'' I was shocked and blushed with embarrassment, he was smirking, I was mortified, I obviously didn't observe ''ladies etiquette''
So everything that Kylen Kantari says regarding skirts and dresses is very true, specially at social occasions or just sitting on a train facing men, legs tight together, or on a windy platform keeping a dress under control, it's definitely not worth blushes and embarrassment and smugness attention from smirking men.

I think the general attributes drummed into girls are... To be very cautious of everything and tbh slighlty underconfident but not so shy and awkward that you aren't enthusiastic and polite. Be very aware of people looking at you: keep your legs closed etc, smile as much as possible, worry about how you look and take pride in it too, move with a bit of finnesse and actually be aware of the people looking at you and question their motives. Be very socially active and aware, empathetic and again, please people with your smiley enthusiastic self.... but don't be too enthusiastic and get "bossy" (again, they almost want you to be slightly underconfident). Be very intelligent because you aren't expected to do manual jobs and also boys are just known to do worse accademically, but also play down the intelligence when interacting romantically with guys because otherwise they'll think you're bossy, scary, or when having intelligent discussions, will think their opinion is correct with no basis and will override you. Oh and pretty much be able to do everything that a guy can do if necessary (tho nothing that will make you look embarrissingly manly because people will think you're wierd and they will tell you) but also everything stereotypically female, at the same time, and be seen as significantly worse at the guy stuff.

I have to get really snarky with this stuff because its all stupid, and I get told off for breaking all of it all the time. But it comes with the perks that you get to express yourself more than guys, you have more freedom in gender roles and expression than guys without your womanhood being questioned (e.g. guys can't do ballet without being ridiculed but women can play football (I mean soccer not American football, I'm English) every day without getting more than occasional odd comments. Also women can wear trousers but men can't wear skirts.) and definite perks of being able to get things. I've walked into a club before with a friend and immediately been offered drinks from a drunk dude, and he dissapeared afterwards so we didn't even have to interact with him.

Oh and I see that part of the original post was removed for being slut shaming - but beware, slut shaming is a normal thing that everyone does to women (including other women and the authorities) so that's one of the bad things that you can't avoid.

Hi y'all;
When I first transitioned some 32 years ago, my therapist gave me the following guide to being socialised as female - sort of an aide memoire to use as a guide when observing other women: Hope it helps:-

Gender Differences
1) What are the differences that distinguish the way men and woman walk? Do men and women of the same approximate size tend to walk about the same speed?

2) Do two women walking together tend to walk differently than a man and a woman walking together? If so, in what ways?

3) Is a woman's posture, body position, orientation, etc. different from that of a man while sitting at a table having coffee or a meal? When with a man? When with another woman? When alone?

4) Do men generally make more or less eye contact with the person they are talking to? Are there differences in eye contact when speaking as compared to listening? How about women?

5) Do women and men tend to smile equally frequently during casual conversation? While conducting business?

6) What are the differences in the ways women and men position their arms when sitting? How about their hands? And their legs?

7) How do men and women differ in the ways they tend to position their bodies in chairs or on sofas?

8) If pitch alone is not as important as some people might believe in differentiating a woman's from a man's voice then what speech characteristics are especially important?

9) Do women or men drivers tend to look around more while waiting at a stoplight in a car? Are there age, social class, or ethnic differences?

10) Are there differences between the ways men and women move their eyes and mouths during conversation?

11) Do women and men differ in the ways they stand and leave from a seated position? How about initiating a seated position?

12) If a woman touches her nose when with another person or during a conversation in what ways is she likely to do so? How does a man touch his nose?

13) What are some ways in which men and women use their hands to express themselves during conversations?

14) Are men or women more likely to touch their hair when in the presence of another? How does their touching differ?

15) Do women and men differ in the way they clap? Sneeze? Laugh? Cough?

16) How is a women likely to hold a phone? Is it the same as a man?

17) Are there any differences in the way a woman walks when wearing slacks as compared to a skirt or dress?

18) Do women and men stand at a curb differently while waiting to cross the street?

19) When listening during a conversation are men as likely to nod their heads as women? When does a women nod her head? A man? How do head nods differ for the two genders?

20) How does a man wave good-bye? A woman? How do women and men say hello?

21) Are there differences in the ways men and women terminate phone conversations? Casual conversations? Business conversations? How about opening telephone conversations?

22) How do the ways a woman uses a tissue or handkerchief while in the presence of another person differ from that of a man?

23) Does a woman position her hands on the steering wheel the same as a man while driving a car? While at a stoplight?

24) Are woman as inclined as men to place their hands in their pockets? Under what circumstances?

25) Estimate the percentage of women between the ages of 20 and 30 who wear mini skirts. Between 30 and 40? Between 40 and 50? Over 50? Answer the same question for people wearing shorts.

26) Is the behaviour of a woman more like a man's in a formal business setting? How about a casual social situation with business associates, or at a party?

27) Are men or women more likely to lean forward while engaged in conversation?

28) What are some conversational strategies or devices by which women seek to build cooperation and community? Do men generally have similar styles?

29) How do women and men differ in being verbally competitive? Are both genders likely to behave the same when competing, expressing differences in opinion, asking questions, etc.?

30) Are there differences in the frequency of statements of affirmation or denial as compared to the frequency of asking questions in the daily conversations of men and women?

31) Do women generally dress differently in various parts of the London Area. How about men? What are the differences for different communities in your geographical area?

32) What are some age, social class, and ethnic differences in the ways women use cosmetics, style their hair, wear jewellery, etc.? Answer the same question for men.

33) What do the two genders do with their hands while standing and talking to another person? While just standing and looking or waiting?

34) Do women and men look differently when riding bicycles? How do women and men athletes look while riding bicycles? On the street? In competition?

35) Do the two genders differ in the ways they talk to children? Play with children? Discipline children? Teach children?

36) What can you learn about hair styles, makeup, grooming, jewellery, various types of clothing, etc. from observing women and men models in newspaper, magazine, and television ads and catalogs for clothing? How do these various features of a person combine to produce an effect, generate feelings, etc.?

37) Notice the many different approaches women have in wearing jewellery and using makeup. How do you decide if a woman is wearing too much makeup or jewellery? Are there times when a certain amount of jewellery is actually needed?

38) What are the differences between men and women in holding and drinking from a cup or glass? Are women as likely as men to drink directly from a soda or beer bottle in a restaurant? What kind of restaurant? What time of the day?

39) Do women and men differ in the way they eat popcorn, a hamburger, an apple, etc.?

40) Do hair styles and the length of hair for men and women tend to change over a person's life span?

41) What are some topics one is likely to find women discussing with each other in casual conversation? In a business conversation? When with men? Answer the same question for men, when together and when with women.

42) Are there differences between women and men in their tendency to look at other people who are walking toward them from the opposite direction while, for example, walking down a sidewalk or shopping mall?

43) How do women and men express disagreement? Anger? Happiness? Sadness? Joy?

44) Do men or women swing their arms more while walking?

45) Are there differences in pacing, speed, and rhythm in the ways women and men move through their daily activities?

46) What are some differences between the two genders in various forms of touching another person of: a) the same gender, and b) the opposite gender?

47) Are there differences between men and women in teasing others? Who teases whom? Are there differences in arguing? Who argues with whom?

48) Is it true that women speak one way when with other women, another way when engaged in business or professional activities, a third way when with men socially, and still a fourth way when with children? Are there differences for men under similar conditions?

49) Do women tell jokes as often as men? When the two genders tell jokes, in general, do they tell different kinds of jokes, jokes with different themes, etc.?

50) Observe the expressions communicated in the eyes of men and women in various advertisements for clothes, sports equipment, cars, cosmetics, and foods. Notice both expressions depicted in magazine and newspaper ads and television commercials. What differences do you see in warmth, power, softness, aggressiveness, attractiveness, intensity, and various other emotions as suggested by the appearance of peoples' eyes? Also, notice how the expression in a person's eyes and mouth combine to produce a certain look. In those cases involving action notice how the eyes, the brows, and the mouth work together to communicate different emotions and feelings. What other attributes of a person contribute to differences in facial expressions in the two genders?

Judith

Someone might make a great PhD in gender psychology by answering those questions with appropriate research backing it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: elkie-t on September 18, 2017, 10:39:38 PM
Someone might make a great PhD in gender psychology by answering those questions with appropriate research backing it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am aiming for that, but my school counselor calls it a PsyD.  1 semester in to my bachelor's in psychology, lots of writing, why they require creative writing, I don't know.  I will get to the doctorate in time to have my own practice for 8 years before hitting my retirement age, if that.  My quick math says that I will get it at 61 years old.  Bachelor's 4 years, Master's 5-7 years, and Doctorate another 5-7 years.  It'll be so worth it!

Quote
24) Are woman as inclined as men to place their hands in their pockets? Under what circumstances?

Trick question! Women don't have pockets!

Quote from: Roll on September 18, 2017, 11:12:16 PM
Trick question! Women don't have pockets!

I beg to differ, My purse has 4 pockets, and yes I put my hands in them.....to get stuff.

Men are socialized not to express their emotions.  Except for one emotion - anger.  It's ok for men to express anger.  But only toward other men, or toward no one in particular.  It is not socially acceptable for men to express anger toward women however.

Women on the other hand are socialized to express all their emotions.  Except for one emotion - anger.  It's not ok for women to express anger, ESPECIALLY toward a man.  That is a huge no-no.  The only time a woman is permitted to express anger is if she is in an all-female environment.  Even then, it carries risks and she may still be chided or shunned for doing so.

I was watching the news recently on TV, and a journalist was talking about the recent Equifax security breach.  When they interviewed a man, he said "it makes me angry that my personal information was stolen".  When they interviewed a woman, she said "it's very frustrating what happened."  Neither of them were visibly emotional, but you could see that even in their choice of words they were following social norms for expressing emotion.

As an MtF trans woman, if you want to conform to female socialization, you'll need to change your vocabulary and stop using words like "pissed off" and "angry".  Instead you can use words like "frustrated" or "annoyed".

This is just one example of the many changes that are involved in transitioning that go beyond the physical.  I believe the best way to learn these things is simply by spending more time with cis female friends.  Over time, you'll naturally pick up these small nuances of female socialization.

Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 01:53:52 AM
I believe the best way to learn these things is simply by spending more time with cis female friends.  Over time, you'll naturally pick up these small nuances of female socialization.

Absolutely true, after 30 years living as a woman you do pick up the nuances of female socialization, but the best thing I ever did when I got married over 7 years ago, I joined a women group that consisted of mostly housewives, apart from learning to cook etc, but socialing as a woman and discussing daily stuff that all women have to deal with, female interaction comes natural to me now, I'm just 1 of the girls.

Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 01:53:52 AM

As an MtF trans woman, if you want to conform to female socialization, you'll need to change your vocabulary and stop using words like "pissed off" and "angry".  Instead you can use words like "frustrated" or "annoyed".

That made me smile, I never hear that at my women group, but hubby uses it all the time LOL

Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 01:53:52 AM

As an MtF trans woman, if you want to conform to female socialization, you'll need to change your vocabulary and stop using words like "pissed off" and "angry".  Instead you can use words like "frustrated" or "annoyed".

This might be a little on the generational side though, as I see countless teenage girls, my sister included, say pissed off. Way more than I ever have actually. (My go to is a sigh followed by "I'm very irritated right now".)

Quote from: Roll on September 19, 2017, 09:43:27 AM
My go to is a sigh followed by "I'm very irritated right now".

How about a sniff and, "We are not amused." Channel queen Victoria. That'll show 'em.

Steph

Quote from: Roll on September 19, 2017, 09:43:27 AM
This might be a little on the generational side though, as I see countless teenage girls, my sister included, say pissed off. Way more than I ever have actually. (My go to is a sigh followed by "I'm very irritated right now".)

Teenage girls are still in the process of growing up and being socialized as a female.  They do many, many things that are not socially acceptable for a grown woman to do.  As they mature and adapt to living in society as a woman, they'll be conditioned not to use such words.

Unless you are transitioning in your teenage years, I would not look to teenage girls as an example for appropriate female adult behavior.

Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 10:35:53 AM

Unless you are transitioning in your teenage years, I would not look to teenage girls as an example for appropriate female adult behavior.

Fair point. :D

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

When I was just starting high school, I use to carry my books like a girl.  One day a guy I knew came up to me and suggested that it wasn't a smart thing to do.  He said if I kept it up, I would probably be made fun of or worse, so I changed to carrying my books like a guy even though I felt more comfortable the other way.

I never have a problem with high heels because I tend to walk more on the balls of my feet.   For most of my life I've crossed my legs.  Also I always shifted my hip out and put most of the weight on side when I'm standing.

I shouldn't be surprised, my wife is always telling me I have many female mannerisms.  Talk with my hands a lot too :)

Paige :)

 Yeah, I think many socialization things comes naturally. Change of posture and fair comes with changes in the body and clothing. Changes in language and behavior come with loss of social status and daily routine changes and changes in the hobbies and social circles we live in. I wouldn't overthink it - someone kind enough will point our mistakes to us soon enough.

As one friendly lady [emoji70] pointed out that hem of my long skirt happened to get tucked in my panties that were very visible from behind to everyone in that fast food restaurant. 🤦‍♀️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, even useful threads inevitably tend to fade into history.  However, some older topics are so excellent that newer members, especially, should be made aware of their existence so that they can be bookmarked.  This thread, especially the original post, is a prime example.  I keep coming back to it.  It is definitely worth pushing it to the front of the queue again, even if only briefly. 

I have actually asked a cis-female friend to be my mentor when it comes to all things women. She instantly gave me a lot of good tips and hints where I can improve.

We also reach out to each other with clothing emergencies....

And sometimes we have fun with it. I asked her about an event I attend in 10 days and her first response was "classy not slu****" (she has seen me both ways), then we debated the two dress choices...

I hop I can learn a lot more from her.

Thanks for bringing this thread back up.  It has a lot of great tips.  I really hope more will be added (maybe even by me).

Quoteo   When you bend down to pick something up off the floor while wearing a skirt, you never bend over at the waist. You bend down with your knees to pick something up. Again, no one wants to see your underwear.

•   Women cross their legs when they are sitting down. It is something most of them do unconsciously. They sit down and immediately cross their legs. Either one thigh over the other, or at the ankles.

•   When women stand, they tend to put all their weight on only one leg at a time. If you've notices how most of the time women have their hips canted when they are standing, it is because of this. Put all your weight on one leg and kind of relax the knee of the other leg so it is slightly bent.

How much are these primarily a female trait? I've been doing them my whole life.

Maybe it's because I'm so tall with long legs. It's easier to fold my legs into a smaller space if they're crossed at the thighs, leaning on one leg makes me look shorter and less imposing, and if I don't lean to the ground with my legs instead of bending over, my butt is awkwardly waving around in the air.

Quote from: widdershins on September 13, 2017, 03:33:26 AM
AFAB here.

If you're a gamer, start playing the healer. The abundance of women in the role goes beyond the old women = nurturing stereotype. It's that the skillset required plays to the strengths of what women are socialized to do. You need to by hyper-aware of everyone's position, needs, etc. A good healer will also pay attention to their teammates individual quirks, keep an eye on others' emotional state and how it's effecting their risk-taking, know exactly how their friends are going to react in any given situation, etc. Seriously, if you want a glimpse into the mindset women are traditionally expected to live with, it's the best one I can suggest.

Another thing that I'm pretty sure helps with trans people of all genders is singing. The vocal techniques you learn when singing make you aware of stuff that you normally wouldn't think of when you speak. And that knowledge, in turn, can be applied to altering your speaking voice.

In the games I play online, I very often play a healer, and am very often sought out because of it... or maybe it's because of my voice :)

I would honestly LOVE to see a "Being Socialized Male 101" thread for us FTMs!

Anyone up for the challenge?  Also, I need to stop talking with my hands. [emoji37]

Ryuichi

I have been paying a lot of attention these last 2 weeks... and when I pay attention, I am observant... so here are some of my observations and I will add a few from other people who I've been talking to (I am sure they won't mind):

1) Women stand differently... not just the moving your weight... but they stand either with their feet together (touching together) or they stand with one leg crossed behind the other.

2) Women fold their arms A LOT. Especially when standing still... even if they are talking to friends... I was discussing this with 2 friends and it is not a barrier but a way of protecting and supporting their breasts and of adjusting their bra.

3) Women very rarely put their hands in their pockets... and if they do, it is their coat pockets. (namely because they don't have pockets)

4) Women tend to only wear skirts or dresses if they are going to work, returning from work, or going on a night out.

5) Women walk with their head held up high and even when standing around, they never look at the ground.

6) Women tend not to look around a lot when waiting. They tend to look straight ahead if waiting on their own. I was quite surprised at how much they resemble statues.

7) Women fidget less. - statues again

Now some observations from my friends...

8 ) Women take smaller bites when eating and chew longer before swallowing.

9) Women don't use their lips to remove food from a fork but use their teeth (more on that in a second)

10) Women will use a straw to drink if one is available - linking back to the last 2 points... it is to protect their lipstick.

So there's 10 additional points I have picked up on the last week. 

oh... not sure if this was mentioned

11) women walk with their legs closer together and tend to point their toes forward more... not always but on average.

and

12) Women talk with their hands at breast height but men talk with their hands at waist height

13) Women are more likely to use umbrellas and gloves, less likely to wear hats (I assume it is to do with hair).

For the ftm members...

men look down more when they walk, they move about more while waiting, they put their hands in their pockets, they stand (and sit) with their legs apart, they fidget more, kick their feet a bit when waiting impatiently. Crossing arms is more a sign of a barrier or not being content. If I think of any more I will let you know... my concentration has been on women but I've been trying to observe the differences between men and women while waiting to collect my daughter from school.


Hobbies...

I recommend learning Salsa but not this cross-body or ballroom rubbish... try and learn street salsa and if possible from a Colombian rather than a Cuban. Colombians use smaller steps and move their hips more. It will help you learn how to sway your hips and walk with smaller steps.

Recently the biggest thing I'm learning for safety on buses. On a compact bus with a lot of people, one of those 2 pairs of seats up and down the bus.

I don't think I'd put myself in danger going on the bus lol but there can be awkward sexual tension and there can be a risk with that... Sitting on the outside seat to ensure you can easily get up at any time, is important.

Also, women tend to prefer to sit next to each other on the bus even if they're strangers. But if there's no other seat, sitting on the outside seat is a safer bet.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on October 07, 2018, 02:10:38 AM
I would honestly LOVE to see a "Being Socialized Male 101" thread for us FTMs!

Anyone up for the challenge?  Also, I need to stop talking with my hands. :-\

Ryuichi

I will do my best to think of what I can, but tbh,I never made a very good guy.

Thank you so much, Sarah1979 for starting this thread, Being Socialized Male 101.  Link below.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esusans%2Eorg%2Fforums%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D241460%2E0&share_tid=241460&share_fid=50490&share_type=t (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esusans%2Eorg%2Fforums%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D241460%2E0&share_tid=241460&share_fid=50490&share_type=t)

I'm sure that many FTMs will find it incredibly useful, myself included. [emoji16]

Ladies, any ideas as to what can be added to it?  You already have a great head start with this thread.  To paraphrase Sarah1979, I never made a very good woman. But if I think of something else other than this little bit, I'll add it.

Pay attention to fashion trends, even if you don't choose to wear the lastest one.  Right now, yoga pants/leggings are everywhere!  Even if you're heavy, it seems to be okay to wear them.  Also skinny pants, especially jeans are in.  No more early 2000s baggy-style pants for women.  The tighter the pants/jeans, the better, it seems. 

Good luck ladies!

Ryuichi



Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

Women carry things close to their chest rather than at their sides because of the "Carry Angle" of their elbow. An innate specialization of the female skeleton to accommodate holding a baby, it is common to ectomorphic body structure. As an ectomorph and having been exposed to prenatal DES, I have this sort of elbow. I had to force myself to carry my books like the rest of my friends because it was simply more comfortable for me carry things like a girl because of the shape of my elbow. Carry Angle also plays a part in the difficulty women have in correctly throwing a softball- a source of embarrassment for me in high school gym class.

Girls;
One thing I like to do as part of my daily workout is put the following on my 65" big screen TV and do these graceful movements. Really helps one waistline and especially the hips. Dont forget to put some small heels or tennis shoes on as well:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wth57D-HaqE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wth57D-HaqE)

also try this one too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NRCGEN6QQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NRCGEN6QQ)

Great workout

This thread is amazing, it's crazy and affirming to me how many of the female things I already do (and as a kid, was self conscious of the fact that I found the "girl way of doing it" felt better), I think I got made fun of it but then again it was a long time ago and my memory isn't that reliable that far back.

Since I'm starting on the male end and like to day-dream a lot about moving towards the female end, I like this kind of information. But there is another part of me that kind-of hates it. Some of these are about social norms or culture or just plain biology or lack of pockets. But others are about negative stereotypes of women such as not expressing anger, or presenting your efforts to conform to standards of dress and beauty. It is the fact that I specifically don't want those "women are weak and must be cared for" traits that society tries to instill which causes me to doubt my own questioning. Maybe it's just the millennial feminist in me spouting non-sense though, who knows?

Wow this thread is da bomb!!, yup I totally suck at womanhood. This thread provides valuable information.  ;D :)

Quote from: judithlynn on October 07, 2018, 10:54:04 PM
Girls;
One thing I like to do as part of my daily workout is put the following on my 65" big screen TV and do these graceful movements. Really helps one waistline and especially the hips. Dont forget to put some small heels or tennis shoes on as well:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wth57D-HaqE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wth57D-HaqE)

also try this one too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NRCGEN6QQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NRCGEN6QQ)

Great workout

Maybe I need to find the male equivilant of these videos!  If any of you ladies happen to run across them, feel free to tag them my way. [emoji6]

Ryuichi

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Quote from: Sam1066 on October 08, 2018, 01:38:30 AM
This thread is amazing, it's crazy and affirming to me how many of the female things I already do (and as a kid, was self conscious of the fact that I found the "girl way of doing it" felt better), I think I got made fun of it but then again it was a long time ago and my memory isn't that reliable that far back.

Since I'm starting on the male end and like to day-dream a lot about moving towards the female end, I like this kind of information. But there is another part of me that kind-of hates it. Some of these are about social norms or culture or just plain biology or lack of pockets. But others are about negative stereotypes of women such as not expressing anger, or presenting your efforts to conform to standards of dress and beauty. It is the fact that I specifically don't want those "women are weak and must be cared for" traits that society tries to instill which causes me to doubt my own questioning. Maybe it's just the millennial feminist in me spouting non-sense though, who knows?

Just do whatever you want. Social norms will help you blend in, but you can buck them if you'd rather avoid them instead. Do you.

This is a great thread.

A few behavioral aspects that may not be so apparent: (I fail at most of these and it is why I don't pass as female even if I have all the correct biological features.)

• Automatically congregate with the women.
• Women stay behind and aside from the guys.
• The women walk away or let the men walk ahead.
• Women allow and wait for men to take the lead.
• Look towards a man for approval of things you or others say and do.
• Don't discuss politics or sports.
• Don't argue, especially not with rational arguments. State your opinion and exit the discussion instead of arguing. (I don't mean literally leave just fall quiet)
• Use tools in an inefficient manner, hold a hammer right up by its head etc. (They do this when there is no man around too)
• Never offer to carry or help with anything remotely laborious.
• Use a lot of agreement/sadness/surprise sounds, umm, ah-ha, ohh etc when listening.
• Look other women in the eye with confidence and smile a happy/friendly smile but not too inviting. Do NOT wink. This tells other women that you are safe. This is very important to do in women toilets.
• When going to the toilet and you recognise another lady there; ask her how she is doing and about her plans. 
• Ask for and give friendly advice to other women.
• Ask for assistance and directions. Women do all the time.
• Automatically help with women's tasks, clearing, cleaning, tidying, calming children, recognising others needs and moods.
• Offer to do things for others and rarely say no. Try not to be a doormat but instead of saying no women use excuses to get out of things.
• Do not confront. If you must confront then slip an emotion into it; a bit of anger, anxiety, fear, or hurt/victim
• Hedge everything you say and write.
• If you carry something make it appear as if you are struggling a bit even if it is just your usual fairly light bag.
• Fumble and make mistakes and make a show of being sorry and all that. It is a very good way to get other women to like you.
• Talk a lot about other people, not necessarily gossiping. When someone is not in the room ask others how they think they are doing and what they think that person thinks of you etc. Try to sound caring and talk about how you can best assist others.

As for good hobbies to female socialize.
Cooking is a big thing, join a cooking or baking class.
Handicrafts, sowing, stitching, knitting etc.
Take classes in make-up and nails and such and offer to do other women. You make best friends like that.
Women are learning these things throughout their lives and they are constantly giving each other advice.

Volunteer at fairs, and similar, where many come together, and fall in line with what all the other ladies are doing. Women are the busy bees at fairs and gatherings. They set everything up and tell men what needs doing. So do not stand around waiting for others to tell you what to do. If it isn't immediately apparent then just walk confidently to the lady that seems to know what she is doing and ask where your help is needed. If she seems likely to misgender then offer her a choice between some female tasks. "Hi I just arrived can I help you clean those tables or should I start putting the cakes onto the tables you have already cleaned?"

Join a choir it can also help with training your voice.

This is a wonderful topic.

It's not a specific thing to do, but the more you hang out at work with or socialize with cis-women, (especially if you pass well as cis yourself), the more you will assimilate.  That's how cis-women learn how to be women, from their girfriends when young, female relatives, and other women.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/2b32a9846dd7253fe7ae7bc60966db78/tumblr_inline_p3ml8f0Awh1t7jsuw_540.png

Hate to spoil the party, but you can't be socialized female by consciously following directives.
Socialization operates on the level of the subconscious, a conditioned response to many years of being treated a certain way by society. The only way is to be read as a non male and "broken" into the role by society over a long period. Only certain obvious stuff can be emulated consistently. Constantly scrutinizing and checking yourself isn't going to benefit your mental state.

Who on earth did developed those characteristics?

I do not know a single woman, who does most of them.
My ex is a very feminine looking person, but she is also a go getter!


Women stay behind and aside from the guys. must not have been my ex
The women walk away or let the men walk ahead.  which woman is doing this today?
Women allow and wait for men to take the lead.  I want to meet that woman, my ex got out of the car and started marching!
Look towards a man for approval of things you or others say and do.  Novel to me, a woman who does that is not fit for today's world!
Don't discuss politics or sports.  My ex and all her friends are political activists
Don't argue, especially not with rational arguments. State your opinion and exit the discussion instead of arguing. (I don't mean literally leave just fall quiet) my ex would never have been able to be a college prof, if she would have done this
Use tools in an inefficient manner, hold a hammer right up by its head etc. (They do this when there is no man around too) the two best mechanics in my son's shop are two very girly girls
Never offer to carry or help with anything remotely laborious.  I still have to see this, if a woman is a homeowner!

When going to the toilet and you recognise another lady there; ask her how she is doing and about her plans. In which world is that?  Certainly not in the one in which I go to a toilet!

Ask for assistance and directions. Women do all the time.  The women I know drive rather in circles instead of admitting they don't know the way!

Do not confront. If you must confront then slip an emotion into it; a bit of anger, anxiety, fear, or hurt/victim
Hedge everything you say and write.  This is a joke, isn't it?

Talk a lot about other people, not necessarily gossiping. When someone is not in the room ask others how they think they are doing and what they think that person thinks of you etc. Try to sound caring and talk about how you can best assist others.  I am a member of a sociopolitical discussion group of only women, we meet once a week.  They must not have gotten this message!

I found that over two to three years, as I gave myself permission to let go of my old male mannerisms and let the hormones do their thing, I instinctively began to act like a woman.  It has taken very little effort.

These days I have a lot of cis female friends, and my interactions with them are completely organic and natural.

My only regret is that I am losing the closeness I had with a lot of my guy friends.  I somehow then to be a lot quieter when they are talking—and I tend to gravitate to my female friends and truly enjoy the girl talk.

Quote from: skipulus on January 04, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
This is a great thread.

A few behavioral aspects that may not be so apparent: (I fail at most of these and it is why I don't pass as female even if I have all the correct biological features.)

• Automatically congregate with the women.
• Women stay behind and aside from the guys.
• The women walk away or let the men walk ahead.
• Women allow and wait for men to take the lead.
• Look towards a man for approval of things you or others say and do.
• Don't discuss politics or sports.
• Don't argue, especially not with rational arguments. State your opinion and exit the discussion instead of arguing. (I don't mean literally leave just fall quiet)
• Use tools in an inefficient manner, hold a hammer right up by its head etc. (They do this when there is no man around too)
• Never offer to carry or help with anything remotely laborious.
• Use a lot of agreement/sadness/surprise sounds, umm, ah-ha, ohh etc when listening.
• Look other women in the eye with confidence and smile a happy/friendly smile but not too inviting. Do NOT wink. This tells other women that you are safe. This is very important to do in women toilets.
• When going to the toilet and you recognise another lady there; ask her how she is doing and about her plans. 
• Ask for and give friendly advice to other women.
• Ask for assistance and directions. Women do all the time.
• Automatically help with women's tasks, clearing, cleaning, tidying, calming children, recognising others needs and moods.
• Offer to do things for others and rarely say no. Try not to be a doormat but instead of saying no women use excuses to get out of things.
• Do not confront. If you must confront then slip an emotion into it; a bit of anger, anxiety, fear, or hurt/victim
• Hedge everything you say and write.
• If you carry something make it appear as if you are struggling a bit even if it is just your usual fairly light bag.
• Fumble and make mistakes and make a show of being sorry and all that. It is a very good way to get other women to like you.
• Talk a lot about other people, not necessarily gossiping. When someone is not in the room ask others how they think they are doing and what they think that person thinks of you etc. Try to sound caring and talk about how you can best assist others.

As for good hobbies to female socialize.
Cooking is a big thing, join a cooking or baking class.
Handicrafts, sowing, stitching, knitting etc.
Take classes in make-up and nails and such and offer to do other women. You make best friends like that.
Women are learning these things throughout their lives and they are constantly giving each other advice.

Volunteer at fairs, and similar, where many come together, and fall in line with what all the other ladies are doing. Women are the busy bees at fairs and gatherings. They set everything up and tell men what needs doing. So do not stand around waiting for others to tell you what to do. If it isn't immediately apparent then just walk confidently to the lady that seems to know what she is doing and ask where your help is needed. If she seems likely to misgender then offer her a choice between some female tasks. "Hi I just arrived can I help you clean those tables or should I start putting the cakes onto the tables you have already cleaned?"

Join a choir it can also help with training your voice.

Quote from: Dietlind on January 04, 2019, 10:16:10 PM
Who on earth did developed those characteristics?

I do not know a single woman, who does most of them.
My ex is a very feminine looking person, but she is also a go getter!


Women stay behind and aside from the guys. must not have been my ex
The women walk away or let the men walk ahead.  which woman is doing this today?
Women allow and wait for men to take the lead.  I want to meet that woman, my ex got out of the car and started marching!
Look towards a man for approval of things you or others say and do.  Novel to me, a woman who does that is not fit for today's world!
Don't discuss politics or sports.  My ex and all her friends are political activists
Don't argue, especially not with rational arguments. State your opinion and exit the discussion instead of arguing. (I don't mean literally leave just fall quiet) my ex would never have been able to be a college prof, if she would have done this
Use tools in an inefficient manner, hold a hammer right up by its head etc. (They do this when there is no man around too) the two best mechanics in my son's shop are two very girly girls
Never offer to carry or help with anything remotely laborious.  I still have to see this, if a woman is a homeowner!

When going to the toilet and you recognise another lady there; ask her how she is doing and about her plans. In which world is that?  Certainly not in the one in which I go to a toilet!

Ask for assistance and directions. Women do all the time.  The women I know drive rather in circles instead of admitting they don't know the way!

Do not confront. If you must confront then slip an emotion into it; a bit of anger, anxiety, fear, or hurt/victim
Hedge everything you say and write.  This is a joke, isn't it?

Talk a lot about other people, not necessarily gossiping. When someone is not in the room ask others how they think they are doing and what they think that person thinks of you etc. Try to sound caring and talk about how you can best assist others.  I am a member of a sociopolitical discussion group of only women, we meet once a week.  They must not have gotten this message!

Seems to be absolute opposites. Sorry but skipulus is the most accurate reality that I have seen on this forums on the subject. Okay, going to be a total bitch here, but the most ridiculous statement that I have read on this forum is,"The women I know drive rather in circles instead of admitting they don't know the way." I have never even heard of this behavior. I guess it has happened at some time but wow, try telling that to your girlfriends.

Okay, first off, if you are being a girl, your guy days are over. Not even joking a little, it is done. You are not the same, go where you want but it will show.

Two, forget the movies. In any given gathering, night out looking to get laid or your grandma's birthday girls are with girls and guys are with guys.

Want to fight to be accepted as a guy, stay a guy. Want to be accepted as a girl by both men and women, be a woman. I say this in the kindest way that I can, the boys club does not accept women. Be an object, be a dude or find another place to be. We are different, it is not a bad thing but it is a very, very real.

What is so wrong with being a woman anyway?

Marilyn Monroe said, "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition."
It seems like in the quest for equality a fundamental error was made, being like a man man and being able to do what they do is not the bar. It never has been but when we accept it, it becomes so. I truly hate hearing someone say that someone is a p***y or that someone has b***s, it negates everything that I ever wanted to be and makes it worthless. As if somehow men are better. They are just different. Be okay with you and know that your worth doesn't come from being one or another.

Don't forget that everyone is different. And that's okay! <3

I hope nobody wants to erase or deny their personality. Just to build on.

And remember that there are cultural and socioeconomic differences. And age and experiences have a strong impact on people's personality's as well.

Quote from: IAmM on January 05, 2019, 01:48:01 AM

Two, forget the movies. In any given gathering, night out looking to get laid or your grandma's birthday girls are with girls and guys are with guys.

Want to fight to be accepted as a guy, stay a guy. Want to be accepted as a girl by both men and women, be a woman. I say this in the kindest way that I can, the boys club does not accept women. Be an object, be a dude or find another place to be. We are different, it is not a bad thing but it is a very, very real.

What is so wrong with being a woman anyway?

QuoteOkay, first off, if you are being a girl, your guy days are over. Not even joking a little, it is done. You are not the same, go where you want but it will show.

But you are the same. Unless doctors can give a personality transplant. Anybody who would deny a person's womanhood because they act too much like a "guy", is sexist and transphobic by definition. Why bend over backwards to be accepted by them? If you like femininity great, I do too, but do it for you, not for anybody else.

QuoteWant to fight to be accepted as a guy, stay a guy. Want to be accepted as a girl by both men and women, be a woman.

They could learn to accept gender non conformity.

QuoteAs if somehow men are better. They are just different.

Skipulus's list can be summed up as "A real woman is seen and not heard". That's not just difference. That's a second class citizen.

QuoteMarilyn Monroe said, "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition."

Norma Jean committed suicide in her thirties. Likely because she couldn't cope with the idea of spending her prime being entirely defined by the male gaze, only to be rendered invisible once she aged past the window of desire. Hardly a role model.
 

Quote from: IAmM on January 05, 2019, 01:48:01 AM
Seems to be absolute opposites. Sorry but skipulus is the most accurate reality that I have seen on this forums on the subject. Okay, going to be a total bitch here, but the most ridiculous statement that I have read on this forum is,"The women I know drive rather in circles instead of admitting they don't know the way." I have never even heard of this behavior. I guess it has happened at some time but wow, try telling that to your girlfriends.

Okay, first off, if you are being a girl, your guy days are over. Not even joking a little, it is done. You are not the same, go where you want but it will show.

Two, forget the movies. In any given gathering, night out looking to get laid or your grandma's birthday girls are with girls and guys are with guys.

Want to fight to be accepted as a guy, stay a guy. Want to be accepted as a girl by both men and women, be a woman. I say this in the kindest way that I can, the boys club does not accept women. Be an object, be a dude or find another place to be. We are different, it is not a bad thing but it is a very, very real.

What is so wrong with being a woman anyway?

Marilyn Monroe said, "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition."
It seems like in the quest for equality a fundamental error was made, being like a man man and being able to do what they do is not the bar. It never has been but when we accept it, it becomes so. I truly hate hearing someone say that someone is a p***y or that someone has b***s, it negates everything that I ever wanted to be and makes it worthless. As if somehow men are better. They are just different. Be okay with you and know that your worth doesn't come from being one or another.

the statements from skipulus are hyper stereotypical and I have yet to meet a woman who is not Amish who demonstrate more than a couple of those. I think this largely describes the 1955 stepford wife, Susie home maker in Oklahoma stereotype. The diminutive ones seem most prevalent in my circles.

The tool thing is weird because I know a lot of women who do that but also a lot who don't. I know fewer men who are incompetent with tools than women.

The fair thing seems decidedly Midwest and 1950 but the point is right on - in large social gatherings women do tend to take charge.

The not taking stances, discussing politics and hedging I have not seen to be true. But my circles are mostly highly educated and many are executives, teachers, lawyers which may be a different behavior demographic than high school or college educated housewife.

But these behaviors are all cultural and regional. I am an east coaster who grew up in New England. I have found most of the east and west coast to be similar, but the Midwest is sometimes like an entirely different country.

Quote from: jill610 on January 05, 2019, 07:57:31 AM

The not taking stances, discussing politics and hedging I have not seen to be true. But my circles are mostly highly educated and many are executives, teachers, lawyers which may be a different behavior demographic than high school or college educated housewife.

These are the circles I hang out with, too!  Most women I know are, or have been in so called "power positions", and they would not have achieved those, if they would have acted like in this listing!  They are leaders, and not followers!

Quote
But these behaviors are all cultural and regional. I am an east coaster who grew up in New England. I have found most of the east and west coast to be similar, but the Midwest is sometimes like an entirely different country.

I would be careful to pin this to the mid west!  The St. Paul-Minneapolis area in MN, Madison in WI, and Chicago are probably more dynamic in sociopolitical issues than a lot of New England areas (Madison is considered the most liberal city in the US).  I think if you go outside the cities in the mid west, you might run into those ideas, but I bet if you are upstate NY you will find similar backwards ideas of womanhood.

I am, for US conditions, probably a little liberal radical in my thinking, probably caused by my upbringing in northern Europe, but my ex, a real mid west girl, was at least as radical like I am, and her two sisters are not far behind her in their thinking.  And they grew up in a very small town in Wisconsin.  Their dad, an arch conservative person, emphasized free an forward thinking of his daughters, and all of them got at least a masters degree.
It might really be education, and not so much location which dictates the thinking and behavior of modern women.

Quote from: Dietlind on January 05, 2019, 08:42:37 AM
These are the circles I hang out with, too!  Most women I know are, or have been in so called "power positions", and they would not have achieved those, if they would have acted like in this listing!  They are leaders, and not followers!
I would be careful to pin this to the mid west!  The St. Paul-Minneapolis area in MN, Madison in WI, and Chicago are probably more dynamic in sociopolitical issues than a lot of New England areas (Madison is considered the most liberal city in the US).  I think if you go outside the cities in the mid west, you might run into those ideas, but I bet if you are upstate NY you will find similar backwards ideas of womanhood.

I am, for US conditions, probably a little liberal radical in my thinking, probably caused by my upbringing in northern Europe, but my ex, a real mid west girl, was at least as radical like I am, and her two sisters are not far behind her in their thinking.  And they grew up in a very small town in Wisconsin.  Their dad, an arch conservative person, emphasized free an forward thinking of his daughters, and all of them got at least a masters degree.
It might really be education, and not so much location which dictates the thinking and behavior of modern women.

Yes that's the problem with stereotypes.

For the records, I am from Saratoga, NY :) qualitatively "upstate".

Then again, Poughkeepsie is "upstate"

 :) I agree with all of the above except "Norma Jean committed suicide in her thirties. Likely because she couldn't cope with the idea of spending her prime being entirely defined by the male gaze, only to be rendered invisible once she aged past the window of desire. Hardly a role model." Quoting her was not because I find her to be a role model, I hardly know anything about her, I do like what that quote has to say though.

Lol, I did grow up around the Amish, in fact my last apartment was right in the area where they filmed Amish Mafia. The first real friend as a child was an Amish girl. My life has been spent there or in the mountains of West Virginia.

Most of my friends are not like the list, but they are the list. Grr! Curse you brain, why can't you find the words I want to say. My best friend is the most competent person that I have ever met, I have seen her do almost anything that a man can do and she spent 15 years supervising men and being more competent than the men in a male dominated work environment. She asked me to change all of the outlets and switches in her mom's house though, and I didn't know anything more about doing it than she did before I started. She is everything you are saying but she still follows that list. It doesn't make sense but it is the way it works out. My last roommate, in Amish central remember, is very outspoken and she would laugh at the list but she lives it. In my group of friends, four couples that do almost everything together, the leader is a woman not a man, she also has a tendency to rub people the wrong way. It is not about who is or does what, but more about normal, every day social interactions.

I am probably still saying everything wrong, I don't know how to say it any better so it will have to do.

I am not trying to define gender or gender roles but socially we tend to spend the most time with people who are the most like ourselves. I found out the hard way that men seeing me as a woman shut me out, yes even among the affluent and well educated. It is fine, I fit in better with wome anyway and I am much happier now, but I had to learn that. It was the objective for me from the beginning but I thought that it was my choice on my time schedule, it didn't work out that way. When the door to male social interaction was closed I found myself with the women, good, well done but I didn't know what it took to fit in at first. It may seem stereotypical, and no one has to be all of that, but to really fit in you, looking and sounding like a woman is not enough, you have to be one. For me it is very comfortable, feels normal and is what I was looking for my whole life. Everyone is different, their goals are different I completely agree and it should be that way, fell free to ignore what I say. I am probably half nuts and none too bright if I am being honest with myself.  :D I just know that I was uncomfortable before, now I am not. I had to learn some things and unlearn others but that list that seems to be scoffed at feels right to me. I am very awkward and struggle to be better, but I am happy now. Even if it is less than.

I do not mean to offend anyone, I have been irritable lately and can probably be very offensive. It is not my intent though.

Take care everyone.

Hi Skipulus,

I have two daughters in their 20s.  My wife and I didn't raise them to be submissive,  sycophants to men.  My wife and I are equal partners in our relationship.  When we work around the house, she's just as likely to pick up a hammer as I am.

Your list reads like something written in Good Housekeeping in the 1930s.  I would suggest you show this list to some cis-gender women.  It's so removed from modern reality they would think you're joking. 

Have a nice day,
Paige :)

Quote from: Paige on January 05, 2019, 11:39:08 AM
Hi Skipulus,

I have two daughters in their 20s.  My wife and I didn't raise them to be submissive,  sycophants to men.  My wife and I are equal partners in our relationship.  When we work around the house, she's just as likely to pick up a hammer as I am.

Your list reads like something written in Good Housekeeping in the 1930s.  I would suggest you show this list to some cis-gender women.  It's so removed from modern reality they would think you're joking. 

Have a nice day,
Paige :)

I wish you were right, I really truly wish you were right!
I'm 45, father of two teenagers and I have tried to install the same values that you describe in my teenage son and daughter.
I'm finishing a PhD in Computer Science AI. I have and do work in the top companies in London as a software developer and study at a Top University in the UK.
I'm born and bread in Scandinavia which certainly is ahead in these matters.

I have been leading in promoting women in tech, I have led women developers groups, started them organised them gone to conference after conference on the topic. Year after year the topics are the same; how to make women take more risks, ask for a raise, be confident, "ask for it", "lean in", fight for their rights, etc.
I try to protest and say that women do all of these things but the numbers and stats tell a different story and my argument is a losing one.

Some of those points I listed are from reviews that I have received as a woman at my work in leading investment banks. American Investment Banks. I work with women globally on these issues, US, Japan, China, India etc. In Academia and Business. I have published articles and been a member of international women in tech groups for over 2 decades.
This has been my experience despite relentless work of us all women in tech to try to turn it around, it is not looking good.  Parody between men and women in computer science in the West is not expected within the next 50 years, in Maths, Physics and Chemistry it is not within the next 100 years. I say the West and mean the western world as in US +EU and associates. In the Eastern world it is far more even.

Note though that the list is not negatives. That is how women behave, they are seen and heard as women.
It is feminine behavior. They get their way, I never could but they do because it is their way of doing things.

Now that my salt and pepper hair has grown out to match my petite girly figure, I find that if I act as a woman when going out shopping I am treated accordingly.  What I wear doesn't seem to matter.  I take the lead and people around me act like they are supposed to.  Though a cashier just looked at me and didn't say anything, as if she didn't know what to call me.  I wasn't offended the slightest.  She did end the transaction with the normal small talk.

This is just like driving.  If you drive how everyone expects you to traffic flows smoothly.

Much better than male failing and screwing everything up.

But, male behavior rules in the work place, so I do what I can to present to our customers as male.

Quote from: skipulus on January 05, 2019, 01:28:17 PM
I wish you were right, I really truly wish you were right!
I'm 45, father of two teenagers and I have tried to install the same values that you describe in my teenage son and daughter.
I'm finishing a PhD in Computer Science AI. I have and do work in the top companies in London as a software developer and study at a Top University in the UK.
I'm born and bread in Scandinavia which certainly is ahead in these matters.

I have been leading in promoting women in tech, I have led women developers groups, started them organised them gone to conference after conference on the topic. Year after year the topics are the same; how to make women take more risks, ask for a raise, be confident, "ask for it", "lean in", fight for their rights, etc.
I try to protest and say that women do all of these things but the numbers and stats tell a different story and my argument is a losing one.

Some of those points I listed are from reviews that I have received as a woman at my work in leading investment banks. American Investment Banks. I work with women globally on these issues, US, Japan, China, India etc. In Academia and Business. I have published articles and been a member of international women in tech groups for over 2 decades.
This has been my experience despite relentless work of us all women in tech to try to turn it around, it is not looking good.  Parody between men and women in computer science in the West is not expected within the next 50 years, in Maths, Physics and Chemistry it is not within the next 100 years. I say the West and mean the western world as in US +EU and associates. In the Eastern world it is far more even.

Note though that the list is not negatives. That is how women behave, they are seen and heard as women.
It is feminine behavior. They get their way, I never could but they do because it is their way of doing things.

Hi again Skipulus,

I've been in the software development for 30 years so I understand where you're coming from. This does seem to be one of the last male dominated bastions of society.  I do know most of my female colleagues didn't match the majority of your points.  I'm from Canada so perhaps my perspective is bias because of this.

I'm not sure about other places but in Canada STEM education may still be dominated by men but that's changing and if you look at other fields like medical, legal, etc. the post secondary education is now significantly majority women. 

I think I'll bounce this off a couple of my female tech friends and get their opinion.

Thanks for the reply,
Paige :)

I think the idea that women should be passive, demure and deferential to men in order to fit in with other women and "pass" is totally outdated. I mean, 20 years ago on Sex and the City, it was Charlotte who was mercilessly lampooned for being old-fashioned - she was not held up as the ideal. And there are hardly any characters like that in modern film, literature or television. The damsel ideal is long gone, at least in the United States.

Or the stuff about not talking about politics. Really? Have you been in the United States recently? Pretty much every woman is talking about politics.

But the stuff about being particularly attentive to way ways that women herd with, interact with and support each other is more accurate than not. Learning how to successfully navigate these inter-personal relations is an important learning step for transitioners.

I think this thread is quite tightly tied to the 'toxic masculinity' thread, certainly the list below sums up lots of my ideas about toxic femininity and a world where denied permission to be actually aggressive, women have often resorted to passive-aggressive tactics.

Of course what's considered healthier is to be assertive. That's what I aim for. Being accepted by the women in my community is a lot of what I wanted out of transition, I'm glad to feel that today.

Quote from: skipulus on January 04, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
This is a great thread.

A few behavioral aspects that may not be so apparent: (I fail at most of these and it is why I don't pass as female even if I have all the correct biological features.)

• Automatically congregate with the women.
• Women stay behind and aside from the guys.

....

• Fumble and make mistakes and make a show of being sorry and all that. It is a very good way to get other women to like you.
• Talk a lot about other people, not necessarily gossiping. When someone is not in the room ask others how they think they are doing and what they think that person thinks of you etc. Try to sound caring and talk about how you can best assist others.

Pretty well hoping this list is intended as satire? my transition to feeling socialized female has rather more to do with 20 years of realizing that having worked so hard to pass as male was killing me and letting go of those things I'd learned all too well.

Quote from: JMJW on January 05, 2019, 06:51:26 AM
Norma Jean committed suicide in her thirties. Likely because she couldn't cope with the idea of spending her prime being entirely defined by the male gaze, only to be rendered invisible once she aged past the window of desire. Hardly a role model.

I'd think it likely Marilyn's suicide had more to do with the men who'd used her, not the least JFK and his brother.

Quote from: SadieBlake on January 09, 2019, 10:29:53 AM
I think this thread is quite tightly tied to the 'toxic masculinity' thread, certainly the list below sums up lots of my ideas about toxic femininity and a world where denied permission to be actually aggressive, women have often resorted to passive-aggressive tactics.

Of course what's considered healthier is to be assertive. That's what I aim for. Being accepted by the women in my community is a lot of what I wanted out of transition, I'm glad to feel that today.
...

It may be true that the thread has been sidetracked in places but the thread was not started with any connection to toxic masculinity or with any promotion of submissive femininity.  Kylen Kantari is a trans man who created a tutorial based on what was expected of him when he presented as a woman.  The original post contains no animosity towards, or disdain for, women and was created for the benefit of trans women.  I still think that the OP is the best such guide that I have seen, for trans women who have not had the benefit of years of practice in the craft, which cis women and experienced trans women do not have to consciously think about.

Quote from: jill610 on January 05, 2019, 07:57:31 AM
the statements from skipulus are hyper stereotypical and I have yet to meet a woman who is not Amish who demonstrate more than a couple of those. I think this largely describes the 1955 stepford wife, Susie home maker in Oklahoma stereotype. The diminutive ones seem most prevalent in my circles.

The tool thing is weird because I know a lot of women who do that but also a lot who don't. I know fewer men who are incompetent with tools than women.

The fair thing seems decidedly Midwest and 1950 but the point is right on - in large social gatherings women do tend to take charge.

The not taking stances, discussing politics and hedging I have not seen to be true. But my circles are mostly highly educated and many are executives, teachers, lawyers which may be a different behavior demographic than high school or college educated housewife.

But these behaviors are all cultural and regional. I am an east coaster who grew up in New England. I have found most of the east and west coast to be similar, but the Midwest is sometimes like an entirely different country.

Quote from: Paige on January 05, 2019, 11:39:08 AM*snip*

Your list reads like something written in Good Housekeeping in the 1930s.  I would suggest you show this list to some cis-gender women.  It's so removed from modern reality they would think you're joking. 

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the "Stepford Wife/Good Housekeeping" statements. 

I taught my kid to be independent, a free thinker, to question everything, to take charge and how to do many things that are considered "stereotypically male."  She grew up to be a wonderfully, outspoken, take-charge, intelligent woman, and I'm proud of that fact. 

My daughter is from Cleveland, Ohio, now transplanted to Washington state, and she's still the independent-thinking, non-subserviant, woman that I taught her to be, and now she's teaching my two granddaughters to be the same, something I'm proud of.  They hike, climb trees, jump into streams to get frogs and all kind of things that are "1930s-type male."  And they do this while wearing pink sparkly unicorn shirts and purple leggings!  I can't wait until their father teaches them how to change spark plugs, but at ages 8 and 4, they're a bit young for car repair.

It sounds like you've been transplanted to Mayberry and Andy Griffin and Barney One-Bullet should come looking for a piece of pecan (YUCK!) pie.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andy_Griffith_Show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andy_Griffith_Show)

I pity any women that mostly act the way you describe.  It sounds like they are expecting to be treated like servants or second-class citizens.  I wish them the best of luck.  Sounds like they'll need it to survive in 2019 and beyond.

Ryuichi

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on January 28, 2019, 03:09:04 AM
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the "Stepford Wife/Good Housekeeping" statements. 

I taught my kid to be independent, a free thinker, to question everything, to take charge and how to do many things that are considered "stereotypically male."  She grew up to be a wonderfully, outspoken, take-charge, intelligent woman, and I'm proud of that fact. 

My daughter is from Cleveland, Ohio, now transplanted to Washington state, and she's still the independent-thinking, non-subserviant, woman that I taught her to be, and now she's teaching my two granddaughters to be the same, something I'm proud of.  They hike, climb trees, jump into streams to get frogs and all kind of things that are "1930s-type male."  And they do this while wearing pink sparkly unicorn shirts and purple leggings!  I can't wait until their father teaches them how to change spark plugs, but at ages 8 and 4, they're a bit young for car repair.

It sounds like you've been transplanted to Mayberry and Andy Griffin and Barney One-Bullet should come looking for a piece of pecan (YUCK!) pie.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andy_Griffith_Show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andy_Griffith_Show)

I pity any women that mostly act the way you describe.  It sounds like they are expecting to be treated like servants or second-class citizens.  I wish them the best of luck.  Sounds like they'll need it to survive in 2019 and beyond.

Ryuichi

It seems that you are agreeing with me but maybe I'm reading too much into your quoting me, which seems like your are using my post as an anti example when it's saying the same thing.

The OP posted a list of stepford behaviors which I strongly disagree with as typical or necessary.

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on January 28, 2019, 03:09:04 AM

I pity any women that mostly act the way you describe.  It sounds like they are expecting to be treated like servants or second-class citizens.  I wish them the best of luck.  Sounds like they'll need it to survive in 2019 and beyond.

Ryuichi

If my wife would have been like the ones that are described in the list, I would not have been interested in her!  I wanted a partner (like my parents were in their relation), and not a servant!

Quote from: jill610 on January 28, 2019, 05:30:45 AM
It seems that you are agreeing with me but maybe I'm reading too much into your quoting me, which seems like your are using my post as an anti example when it's saying the same thing.

The OP posted a list of stepford behaviors which I strongly disagree with as typical or necessary.

I think that perhaps you are reading too much into my statement.  I'm agreeing with you.  :)

Ryuichi

Quote from: kylen kantari on September 12, 2017, 03:31:27 PM
Hi ladies! So, the other day I was at my support group and one of the ladies there mentioned that because they weren't raised and socialized as a female, they didn't know any of the do's and don'ts of being a girl that all female bodied people are taught from a young age. At this point they all turned to me (the only FTM in the group) and asked me what some of those do's and don'ts are. I got thinking that this was probably a common problem you gals run into, so I thought I'd make a list and post it here.

Disclaimer: These are my own personal experiences and observations and are obviously not going to be universal. A lot of these are things that I'm trying to unlearn myself.

•   The first thing you should know is that girls are taught from a young age to be a little bit fearful. What I mean is that they are raised knowing that being raped, assaulted and/or murdered is a very real possibility. This isn't just being paranoid, statistics show that between ¼ to ½ of all women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. This means that they behave very differently in certain situations than a man would because they are aware that there is constant threat. This doesn't mean live your life in fear, it just means you need to be aware of your surroundings and avoid certain situations.

o   Don't walk down dark alleys alone at night. In fact, be extremely cautious of going anywhere alone at night. If you have too, be alert, pay attention to your surroundings. Don't be looking at your phone. If you're walking to your car, take your keys out of your purse before you enter the parking lot and walk with them in your hand.

o   Body language is a big factor in keeping you safe. Don't try to make yourself look small, don't hunch your shoulder down and keep your head looking at the ground. Put your shoulders back, your chin up and be looking around. And don't be afraid to glare at anyone you think is suspicious looking. Anyone who is looking to assault someone is looking for a victim: someone who is weak, easy prey and won't fight back. So, if you look like you know what they are up to and will fight back if they try anything, they will most likely leave you alone.

o   If you are at a club, bar or any type of similar setting, never leave your drink unattended. In fact, never let it out of your sight. Putting it down and looking away is exactly how you get roofied. And yes, people try that all the time. Pick it up, and don't put it down until you're done, or if you're sitting at a table, put it directly in your line of sight so you can see if anyone tries anything.

o   And on another note, at such places, always try to go to the restroom in groups of at least two. There's a reason women do this, it's because there is safety in numbers and restrooms at such places are great places to be assaulted. Think about it, you wander away from your group of friends alone, to the back of the club where there are fewer people, to a room with a door that locks. Perfect ambush opportunity.

o   Be cautious of men you don't know approaching you when you are alone. Your car breaking down on the side of the road is always a bad situation to find yourself in. Don't assume that everyone who stops and offers to help is doing so with good intentions.

o   Don't pick up hitchhikers. I feel like that should be self-explanatory.

•   <slut shaming portion removed> Admin

Are you scared yet? You've probably never had to think of any of these things before, but these are things women are always aware of. You don't have to live in fear, but a healthy dose of caution goes a long way to keeping you safe.

And now that I've made you completely paranoid, let's move on to lighter things. Some of these things many of you probably already know, but I'm trying to be thorough.

•   Skirts and dresses. There are few things to know about wearing skirts and dresses.

o   When you sit down wearing a skirt or dress, you never just sit down. This causes the skirt to gather underneath you uncomfortably and causes your skirt to wrinkle. What you do is this: you reach behind you with both hands, palms open flat, and gently pull the loose material of the back of the skirt forward until its resting against the back of your thighs. You do this as you are in the process of sitting down. It should be one fluid motion. Sweep your arms back, palms open, move the material while sitting down, and then bring your hand into your lap.

o   Always keep your knees together when sitting while wearing a skirt or dress. No one wants to see your underwear.

o   When you bend down to pick something up off the floor while wearing a skirt, you never bend over at the waist. You bend down with your knees to pick something up. Again, no one wants to see your underwear.

o   Bonus: how to walk in heels. The trick to walking in heels, is that you are not walking with your entire foot. You are only walking on the ball of your foot, or if you have really high heels, your tippy toes. If you're standing still, you can put your weight on your heel, but when walking only put weight on the balls of your feet. And when walking down stairs, hold onto the hand rail.

•   Women cross their legs when they are sitting down. It is something most of them do unconsciously. They sit down and immediately cross their legs. Either one thigh over the other, or at the ankles.

•   When women stand, they tend to put all their weight on only one leg at a time. If you've notices how most of the time women have their hips canted when they are standing, it is because of this. Put all your weight on one leg and kind of relax the knee of the other leg so it is slightly bent.

•   Women carry things differently than men do. Women's bodies are different than men's bodies, which yes you already knew, but probably not in this way. Men are built to work, so they are stronger in their shoulders and upper bodies, and have a center of mass that is higher up on the body than women. Women are built to carry babies. This means that their center of mass, and the strongest, most balanced part of their body is the hips. So, when women carry things, especially heavy things, they carry them on their hips not their shoulders. For example, when carrying a laundry basket, women will often hold it in one hand and rest the other end against their hip, either in front of them or to the side. Or if they're carrying a bag of something heavy, they carry it in both arms, low in front of their bodies, and rest the weight on their hip bones.

•   When women make eye contact with someone, they smile. Even if you don't know the person, still give at least a small smile. Okay this is kind of a generalization, but it seems to be a thing most women do and what is expected of them.

•   Women listen to every single word that comes out of someone's mouth and always have some kind of reply or comment afterwards. According to my mother, men do this thing where they tune someone out if they don't think they're saying anything important (which I agree with because I do this all the time). But women always listen to everything that someone is saying, no matter what the topic. So, no matter how many times a day your mother has to tell you about the exploits of all the birds at the bird feeder, you have to listen to every word and each time have an appropriately enthusiastic response.

•   Women look someone in the eye or in the face when they are talking. Yes, this is a normal social thing for everyone, but women tend to do it more so than men do. In other words, women are less likely to look away during the conversation than men are. Women also tend to lean forward toward the other person when speaking to or listening to each other.

•    Women compliment each other, a lot. They even do it to women they don't know, but it is especially common among women that they do know. For example, "that's a nice shirt" "I love your hair" "where did you get those shoes."

•   It's a lot more acceptable for a woman to show her emotions than it is for a man.

•   Women carry things in purses, and never in their pockets. Except for maybe Chapstick or their phone.

Wow, that was the longest post I've ever made in my life. I'll probably have more things to add as I think of them. Or if anyone else wants to add feel free.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I don't mind talking about it. Just be warned, I'm FTM and I kind of made a lousy girl.

This thread has grown quite a lot with interesting ideas and opinions.  The OP is so useful to those early in transition, though, that I thought that I would quote it so that people who only read the more recent posts don't miss out on the benefits of this topic.

This is a REALLY helpful topic, especially the OP by Kylen Kantari.

However, it took me ages to find it again.

Perhaps the Powers That Be could move the thread to a section where it could be found more easily and appreciated (and added to) by more members, especially newbies.

Right now, it is in the section Transgender Talk which, as I write, has 16,203 topics, making it hard to find even in the unlikely event that the pilgrim knows that it is in that section.
The section Help and Howto's, however, has only 320 topics.

At least the Being Socialized Female 101
topic is currently at the top of the board's list of topics.



https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,4.0.html

And topic:

https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,228377.0.html    Being Socialized Female 101

Quote from: MaryT on January 25, 2025, 05:43:13 PMThis is a REALLY helpful topic, especially the OP by Kylen Kantari.

However, it took me ages to find it again.

Perhaps the Powers That Be could move the thread to a section where it could be found more easily and appreciated (and added to) by more members, especially newbies.

Right now, it is in the section Transgender Talk which, as I write, has 16,203 topics, making it hard to find even in the unlikely event that the pilgrim knows that it is in that section.
The section Help and Howto's, however, has only 320 topics.

I just bookmarked the OP and your post for future easr of finding, thanks! 🫶

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on January 25, 2025, 06:43:24 PMAt least the Being Socialized Female 101
topic is currently at the top of the board's list of topics.



https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,4.0.html

And topic:

https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,228377.0.html    Being Socialized Female 101

It's position on those boards is determined by how recently someone posted on it.  If the topic is inactive for a long time it will slip down the list and become much more difficult to find.

@MaryT
Dear MaryT:
EXACTLY correct....    this is a topic of interest and if the thread becomes more active
it will stay near the top...
...but of course there are a plethora of other topics on the Transgender Talk board of equal interest.

Every so often we all should go down that list to see what interesting topics have gone "dormant."

                     Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this.

HUGS, Danielle [Northern Star Girl]

Quote from: MaryT on January 25, 2025, 07:03:11 PMIt's position on those boards is determined by how recently someone posted on it.  If the topic is inactive for a long time it will slip down the list and become much more difficult to find.

Many times I have a dream that I was socialized as female, raised as female, went to school as female, and everyone for all practical purposes thought that I was a girl.  That was because I looked and sounded like a girl, was very fem, had beautiful hair, and did most everything nice girls do. 

I dreamt that my body rounded out at the appropriate time and that I was that lovely girl in the neighborhood that was kind, modest, friendly, thoughtful, bubbly, and smart too.  A sweetheart.

I am a woman now but I very much wish that those dreams were reality.  Turns out that I can be most of those things in terms of character and personality at least, not all, but I missed out on those experiences.

Chrissy

I had that same dream last night.

I was not one of those super popular girls but I had nice friends.

Friends help make things better.  Not those Facebook "friends"; but, real friends.


Chrissy

Wow, you must be a Virgo! 

I love the way you explain things so clearly and thoughtfully. 

Thanks!

< raises hand > Virgo here. September 3.

I have always seen myself as the iconic Virgo. Feminine, but not in a sexual way. Like the Columbs, or Vestal Virgins.

Then a friend of my dad's was really into astrology and loaned me the book, "Linda Goodman's Sun Signs" and the book's description of Virgo was exactly me.

Quote from: Lori Dee on February 06, 2025, 09:24:52 PM< raises hand > Virgo here. September 3.

I have always seen myself as the iconic Virgo. Feminine, but not in a sexual way. Like the Columbs, or Vestal Virgins.

Then a friend of my dad's was really into astrology and loaned me the book, "Linda Goodman's Sun Signs" and the book's description of Virgo was exactly me.

Virgo sees all the details, I ❤️ them

Big 💜 to you 💋