Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have spent some time now trying to find actual real stats on Transgender ppl who have transitioned and regretted fully transitioning. I know obviously some regret it. I was in a great debate about bill c-16 from Canada and trans ppl in the Canadian military with someone that is currently in the military but the person kept bringing up some stat that 40% of trans ppl regret fully transitioning. Does anybody know of any studies that have been done on this and if so where could i find the info. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated

Quote from: Kristinagl on September 16, 2017, 01:46:32 AM
I have spent some time now trying to find actual real stats on Transgender ppl who have transitioned and regretted fully transitioning. I know obviously some regret it. I was in a great debate about bill c-16 from Canada and trans ppl in the Canadian military with someone that is currently in the military but the person kept bringing up some stat that 40% of trans ppl regret fully transitioning. Does anybody know of any studies that have been done on this and if so where could i find the info. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated

I don't have an answer to your question... and I'm not sure if the following will help but your post made me recall this info...

Lynn Conway has a very encouraging transition story which occurred at a time when transitioning basically meant job loss if you were out (i.e., transitioning in the midst of a job). That is not the main reason I bring her name up... just saying she has an encouraging story from a time when things were far more difficult than today.

Anyway, over the years I've scoured her site to learn and consider safe ways of exploring things. I'm not sure how up to date her site is but I know there were pages where she discussed statistics.

As I recall, she outlined something about the difficulty of estimating certain things, such as a the prevalence of transsexualism, but she also outlined some rough estimates and offered a basis for how she went about doing so.

Her site also has a very good "WARNING" page which outlines stories to try to help people temper their decision-making process, avoid being too hasty, and in some cases, highlight the importance of understanding that ->-bleeped-<- isn't a new "binary" as perhaps people were limited to decades prior ... it isn't a "you get SRS" (valid) or "you don't" (invalid) type of thing... it may sound like the same old spectrum talk but I found it to be insightful info and it was available years ago.

Anyway, if you can't find your info there directly, her site may offer hints as to how you might either derive such info, or maybe there's some clue where might check (i.e., something back then which was not in place which might be in place today where you can get better stats).

This is probably a long shot but sometimes little things can get you to some other indirect endpoint so I pass it your way fwiw.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html)
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html)

You might try a web search lilke this: site:ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway statistics regret

The 40% number is the number of people who attempt suicide without treatment. Of those who are treated, those with regrets or detransition are less that 2 or 3%. Some of those who detransition may be doing it for reasons other than regret such as employment or family. With proper treatment and therapy, our risk of suicide is the same or less than that of the CIS population. The one treatment that really works for us is attacked by the haters using false figures and unfortunately is often believed by the public.

Quote from: Dena on September 16, 2017, 02:52:32 AM
The 40% number is the number of people who attempt suicide without treatment. Of those who are treated, those with regrets or detransition are less that 2 or 3%. Some of those who detransition may be doing it for reasons other than regret such as employment or family. With proper treatment and therapy, our risk of suicide is the same or less than that of the CIS population. The one treatment that really works for us is attacked by the haters using false figures and unfortunately is often believed by the public.

... or Kristinagl, you could ask Dena! ;)

The stats are hard to get,  we as a population don't make life easy for the statisticians! The other thing,  is that of those who detransition,  a number may well transition again.. It's just part of their journey in life.

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This is going to be a challenge! 

As a recovering market researcher, survey statistics are subject to tons of errors. 
Sampling bias, design bias, respondent bias, and poorly specified (or measured)
population have impacted my work a lot.   I have also observed that people just
do not accurately report and not necessarily out of malice.  They just may not
understand or may have valid reasons to avoid accurate reporting.  Thus the cost
of getting good statistics increases as you have to compensate for bias.   

I have spent a decent amount of time digging about and am also interested in
the statistics found and reported.   If one has great sources and points to them
in this thread it may be a great discussion topic. 

I'm wondering why we don't create a survey. Before the survey is ready, let's get input from everyone here...should be enough to create some statistics. i can think hundreds of questions right off the bat.

There is the occasional person who regrets transitioning, but far and away most people are happier. Instead of looking for regret studies, why not show this person accepted medical practice for us? Are they showing you proof of this 40% claim? It sounds like you're trying to win an argument with a logical fallacy in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Are you sure you're picking your battles wisely?

Hugs, Devlyn

It is a high number. I wonder where it came from. This needs much further research. It is a very complicated story. Regret transitioning at all? Regret transitioning because of issues that came up? Sometimes regret transitioning because some things were easier before?

I have seen other stats were things were generally more positive and people who transitioned were better off than before. I don't read research papers because I don't find these are as useful for me. It is all very complicated.

I have asked on this forum who transitioned a long time ago how they view everything. Odds are these people might not be active on this board as much. I think it is common knowledge therapy and treatment has very high drop out rates. It is a difficult process and should be much easier and accessible. At the same time not everyone has to transition. Maybe the people resolved their issues in another way. I don't see that as entirely negative in any way.

Someone should do the research and compare different times , places and locations. It is getting even more complicated when children are transitioning more and more. And I don't mean that in the most non judgemental way possible.   

I also would ask if the 40% represents people who start and stop.  That number is probably higher than 40% and of those that start, I would guess most (almost all?) restart.

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In the last 7 years of research, I've never seen a stat that says 40% of people detransition. In fact, the percentage of destransitioners seems to around 2-3% with 5% as a maximum.  The 40% figure is about the number of pre/non transitioners who attempt suicide..

As to where to find the stats? Try the References for the WPATH SoC's.. The References for some of the Trans-related Wikipedia pages are also worth a look.

Why  we don't have survey's etc. One the government is under control of Republicans. Republicans are under control of the Christians and Christians are under control of the clergy and it's the clergy that thinks its a sin and a choice we make for ourselves because we are all sickos and perverts. We don't even get an accounting on the census anymore. Imagine if we found information that would definitely prove we did not choose it for ourselves. That food additives and medical malpractice was responsible for the majority or Transgendered people. Everything they believe would be destroyed.

Stop generalizing. There isn't a Christian bone in this Republican body.   >:-)

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 16, 2017, 07:05:24 PM
Stop generalizing. There isn't a Christian bone in this Republican body.   >:-)

But you acknowledge that the vast majority of republicans are cishet Christians, right?

When you are talking about a majority influence in a political party's policies, it's not possible to have an honest conversation without allowing generalizations.

Quote from: DawnOday on September 16, 2017, 06:51:00 PM
Why  we don't have survey's etc. One the government is under control of Republicans. Republicans are under control of the Christians and Christians are under control of the clergy and it's the clergy that thinks its a sin and a choice we make for ourselves because we are all sickos and perverts. We don't even get an accounting on the census anymore. Imagine if we found information that would definitely prove we did not choose it for ourselves. That food additives and medical malpractice was responsible for the majority or Transgendered people. Everything they believe would be destroyed.

Depending on your age, there is the DES factor followed by today's shooting up infants with absolutely no imune system to speak of with more vaccines then a military recruit going into some pestilence ruled region of the world on top of the other 30 or so shots you get. Oh and add in the crappy quality, or total lack thereof of most "Food" that comes in box, bag, jar or.... or on the vine. Since the nutritional values were last established back in the 30's. Long before today's Food Science

Oh, and as far as "Generalizations" this Constitutional Republican, who is a mix of Irish Catholic and Russian Orthodox, strongly suspects the clergy despises us because we wear prettier dresses and laugh at their "Penis Hats"

Quote from: Kristinagl on September 16, 2017, 01:46:32 AM
I have spent some time now trying to find actual real stats on Transgender ppl who have transitioned and regretted fully transitioning. I know obviously some regret it. I was in a great debate about bill c-16 from Canada and trans ppl in the Canadian military with someone that is currently in the military but the person kept bringing up some stat that 40% of trans ppl regret fully transitioning. Does anybody know of any studies that have been done on this and if so where could i find the info. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated

Although not a direct answer to your question, this study describes deals with overall satisfaction of post operative transwomen.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/

Beyond that, I echo those skeptical of the statistic that 40% detransition.  I was once quoted that same statistic by an anti-trans Christian fundamentalist.  When I asked for data, he pointed to a website which counted those who took transitional steps without continuing on to SRS.  Essentially, any change in direction or even non-binary living was interpreted as post transition regret.

I actually wrote a fairly long blog piece on "transgender regret" a few years ago, but I don't know if I'm allowed to link it.

Thanks, Kristinagl, for asking this question because I've heard the statistic, too, and often wondered about it.

Even more important than the statistic, though, I've often wondered about the people who get SRS/GCS and then regret it later on. What do these individuals have in common? Did they not do a long enough RLE? Were they not honest with their gender therapist? Did they have unrealistic expectations and, if so, what were they? Something else?

I did a little unscientific fooling around (on the net I mean), an came up with the International Foundation for Gender Education as a possible source for what you need.  Their web site is very unhelpful but I've seen them referred to elsewhere.  If you've already tried them please excuse the redundancy.

There's also "International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-" but, like many so-called educational studies, it's fee based (unless you belong to a institution that has access already).

( tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2011.618399 )

Quote from: JoanneB on September 16, 2017, 08:43:23 PM
Oh, and as far as "Generalizations" this Constitutional Republican, who is a mix of Irish Catholic and Russian Orthodox,

LOL "Are you Christian?" "Hell no!! I'm Catholic!" (too)  ;D  As a product of Jesuit "facist authoritarianism" am not offended by christian bashing in the least but, then again, our current "Pope" does gotta go!!

Someone posted a link (different thread) been reading:

Quote from: avitale.com/developmentalreview.htmFurther, most clinicians agree that the gender identity beliefs these people hold are profound, deep seated, and non-delusional. Even more significantly, outcome studies now clearly indicate that when three conditions are met: a proper differential diagnosis, a significantly long trial period of living in the gender of choice, and a satisfactory surgical result, there is only a small incidence of post-operative regret.

Quote from: NJOttawa on September 16, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
I'm wondering why we don't create a survey.

Nina, I have an excellent web based 'survey system" that allows custom branching: subsequent questions are based on previous answers. It allows for user editing as well. One can go back, change answers (until 'finalized'), is anonymous IP based (no 'login' required) and one can quit and resume later and/or restart survey completely. It's called 'UCCASS' and is incorporated into my private Vbulletin journal.

QuoteThe Unit Command Climate Assessment and Survey System (UCCASS) (pronounced yoo-kas) is a PHP survey script used to make general purpose surveys or questionnaires. Originally designed for the government, this program is intended to automate the Command Climate Assessment surveys that unit commanders are required to give but it can also be used for general purpose surveys and polls.

There's a definite 'learning curve' to programming it but I can designate *anybody* with administrative, editing rights. If interested I'll PM a link to an existing survey (on solar power) to get an idea how it works.

Cheers

QuoteIndeed, in a review of the outcome literature Pfafflin (1992) reports that less than 1% of the female-to-male transsexuals who had undergone sex reassignment had any regrets. For male-to-female transsexuals the number was slightly higher at less than 2%. Later studies supporting Pfafflin's report include Bodlund O. et al., (1996); Cohen-Kettenis P.T (1997); Exner, K. et al., (1995); Rakic, Z. et al., (1996), and Smith Y. L. et al., (2001). It should be noted that satisfaction is measured by self report of improvement in the individual's psychosocial well being.

http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm (http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm)

QuoteAltogether 325 consecutive adolescent and adult applicants for sex reassignment participated: After treatment the group was no longer gender dysphoric. The vast majority functioned quite well psychologically, socially and sexually. Two non-homosexual male-to-female transsexuals expressed regrets.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets)

Credit where due: couldn't remember 'just a random name'? LOL

Used to do this:

Quote"caught" playing hopscotch with the girls

I wrote a multi-page rant on the mythology of post SRS/GCS regret a couple of years ago.  It does link to a few pertinent studies and takes on the anti-transition propaganda of Walt Heyer and his disciples.

http://www.renaemadisongage.com/2015/12/regret/ (http://www.renaemadisongage.com/2015/12/regret/)

There is a link near the top of the post to skip down past the morsel of medical history (although being the geek that I am, it's my favorite part).

On a slightly side-note, back in the day when the Trans Rights bill was having hearings in the Maryland State Senate, I was there along with a very large cross section of TG advocates. The "Loyal Opposition" had their supporters too. But what got me was:
A) About every one the opposition presented either had a family member that was "Trans" but miraculously was "Cured"
B) Those who did de-transitioned and blamed every one but themselves for following that path. Mind control tricks, hypnosis, peer pressure, you name it. You have to wonder how any of the post-ops (FTM probably only top surgery) got any clearance letters. If at all?
C) How ABSOLUTELY Bitter and Hate FIlled towards the TG community they were. The vitriol was amazing!

Since the opposition was headed up by a big name (and big $$$) anti-trans activist group, It got to make you wonder about any de-transitioned and/or regret stats. They have a Well Funded axe to grind