Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Doing a lot of practice these days to transcribe my
alto to soprano range so it sounds female
instead of a very high singing male.

I think I went for a Ella interpretation here :-)
The song is short to download 700K.

foggydya.mp3 (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/12/6/1628750/foggydya.mp3)

Please give your opinion if you "dare" listen to it :-).

Sounds good. Good song for your voice. I'd say it's a feminine alto with a nice blues edge to it.

Dennis

I'm going to be brutally honest with you Keira, I don't think your singing voice sounds quite feminine enough yet. It reminded me a bit  of a young boy in his early teens whose voice has not quite broken, singing along to the radio. It's not quite soft enough to be identified as a female voice yet, but I'm sure that with practice you'll be OK. You just need be a bit breathier, try sounding like one of those women who do sexy chat lines, lol!  :o
That's just my opinion, others will probably disagree. You are very brave to post your voice on here and I sincerely hope I haven't offended you.
Louise

Louise,

I don't agree at all on what you assess as a
female voice. I've got at least 1000 jazz
and blues songs (most of them bought!!)
in mp3 form and none sound like what your advocating!!

Listen to Fitzgerald, Vauguan or dozens of others
and tell me they sound as you states.

Their notes are purer and more simple
at the start of their carreer, but 5-10 years later in their heyday,
their voice is rich in higher harmonics which give a very
particular sound to the voice (and its their signature).

Maybe your thinking of Diana Krall, which I like, but has
kind of a weak voice which is heavily amplified and post treated
(she didn't start as a singer).

Even Norah Jones as a heavy timbre
to her voice which is different than what your saying.

Plenty of pop singer too have voices with heavy timbre, Sheryl Crow,
Nelly Furtado, Anastacia. All those voice are chock full of harmonics, Sheryl Crows voice is way lower than mine.

Considering the amount of vibrato and bluesy modulation, I'd
be surprised a young kid could do this, but if they can, hey that's fine.
But, anyway, a  child male or women before puberty have voices that are
just about equivalent. The pitch and the resonnance is the same.
After that, the voice breaks and its much lower than what I did here.
The average fundamental frequency for the passage is in the middle of the soprano range, with top notes going over F5 (that's in the top soprano). Because its done in a bluesy way with modulation you don't feel the height as much a with a pure note.

I'm not saying I've got nothing to work on.
But, knowing I was going for chock middle
of the jazz voice and that's what I'm going for.
Applying such correction wouldn't make sense.

To conclude, the voice has to match the style your going for.

If you want breathy, I can sing in a Dido (very breathy and light) way
or Chantal Kraviatchuk way (purer voice but with some timbre)

Most breathy singer have almost no voices too speak of and are heavily amplified (example, Britney, and hundreds of others). Breathy is
a bad way to sing in general and is not sustainable without
amplification. I heard Dido's voice on a live radio program and
she does have a pretty good voice even if it is breathy.

I have to agree with Keira. A breathy voice in jazz sounds lounge. Keira's voice sounds bluesy.

And, it's a heck of a lot more feminine than, say, Carole Pope from Rough Trade (who was born female, btw):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsJHtzdvfKg

Edit: My gf heard both and says no question Keira sounds female.

Maybe I'm getting confused between what sounds like a female pop singer and what sounds like a female JAZZ singer. I'll see if I can listen to some of the artistes you mentioned and maybe I can reassess my comments. Like I said, I wasn't trying to offend anyone, least of all you  Keira.

Hey, its OK,
You gave an honest comment.
Sometimes I am a bit thin skinned.
That's something I need to get better anyway.

My male voice is quite different, you'd be quite surprised,
it has a wide range with the top end at the same level
as the female voice, but it sounds more falsetto.

So, in fact I've got to cut part of my lower range, I tried
not to sing below alto because I've got a lot of problem
doing a head voice lower than alto and that's what's needed
to make the lower end sounding female (since my resonnance
cavity is larger than the average female).

i like the timber of your voice; you transported me to safe place keira ;)

Diana Krall, probably as fine a jazz artist and vocalist as there is, is very breathy.  And breathiness is very female but what would I know about voice? :)


As far as singing in a female voice goes though, one of the most important things is to be able to sing on pitch otherwise no one is ever going to hear you sing anyway.

Diana's Krall's voice is VERY amplified, I've seen her live.
So, breathy, yes, but needs amplification substantially, so
not that powerfull a voice. I love her voice and have almost
all her record, but its her jazz arangements that really sell her;
she became a singer incidentally. She's a fantastic pianist
and arranger.

I'm going for a more traditional jazz timbre, Norah Jones got
a very rich voice, but the timbre is less strongly pushed than
someone like Ella.

Sarah Vaughan has the BEST jazz voice, I also got all her records and
she's done A LOT. She's just fantastic and its NOT breathy AT ALL.

The jazz voice varies in timbre (variation in harmonics), volume, pitch modulation (vibrato of different frequency).

A pure note, like those done by Celine Dion is rarely seen in Jazz
or blues.

I've sung since age 4, started in church chorals (like most
respectable singers :-). I've been interested in Jazz since my teens
and have an extensive collection of CD that I've transfered to mp3.

Neat!  If I didn't know the person singing, I would assume that they were female from the voice (by which I mean the femaleness comes from the voice rather than having seen how you look).

Lia

 paradise.mp3 (http://www.myspace.com/harpernicole)

Posted on: December 09, 2007, 01:56:09 AM

---

Quote from: Keira on December 09, 2007, 12:25:34 AM

Diana's Krall's voice is VERY amplified...
she became a singer incidentally.

:o Incidentally, Diana Krall sings on pitch, all those other singers you mentioned also sing on pitch and I doubt that any of them are tone deaf.

I think what Melissa's tactfully trying to say is that you are a tad off pitch. And I did notice that, but your tone is fine. You need to lift your inner palate - you're a bit flat at points. And I think Diana Krall is lounge, not pure jazz. Or at least not bluesy jazz, but she does have a beautiful voice.

Dennis

If you put something out, and ask people what they think - ask them to give you their opinion, then the only - ONLY - thing you can do when they give it is say "Thank you very much" no matter what it is. 

When its done and gone, count up the likes and dislikes and hope that the first outnumber the second.  But you just don't argue with the critics.

I agree with Tekla, I get critiqued in my acting troup all the time, we are taught to listen silently/ It is a huge part of the discipline needed to become a succesful performance artist.

I also agree that breathiness is very feminine and sexy too! I was a suuceesful lounge singer/hoofer and musical theater actor. I am trying to reinvent myself as a female perfoirmer. It is one of the reasons I came to SF.

The old adage is that you don't ask questions you really don't want to know the answer to.

And any public performance is going to have people who like it and people who don't.  That is the nature of the beast, being art, and taste in art being subjective first, last, and always.

Where I work in SF, (the major rock houses) our staff is varied enough that no matter who played what, I could find at least one person who thought it was the greatest thing they ever heard and someone else who thought it sounded like screeching weasels.

Melissa, when I tell you most jazz singer are not breathy (a fact).
What is the reply! An insinuation of complete lack of pitch
(Like you insinuated my inability to understand logic, semantics, etc. in other threads... modus opandi?)

There are differences between insinuation and constructive criticism.
Vague stabs serve no purpose in any settings, online or elsewhere.
In real life, you know the person and respect their knowledge,
which helps, but even there broad comments don't work.

I welcome precise comments (like those of Dennis).
They are constructive. I can work with them.

Pitch is an issue, this is not my natural voice
but, I know its not a generalized problem.
(7 years of piano and decades performing helps
in this assessment)

Going back to the point.
I listened to my short performance and
the constructive criticism, intently.
And found that,
My pitch issues  are mainly due to lack of
supply of air to support the voice.
      - I'm opening my mouth wider and sending
        my tongue forward and down to increase
        higher harmonics and sound more female,
        which, means a lot more air than usual escapes
        and I need to change my breathing patterns.
     - I don't breathe often enough because I have a tendency
       to wait till the last minute to gulp air up.
     - Tendency to hum between some notes which prevents
       proper breathing
     - My switching from head to chest voice on two notes is
       very clunky and almost lose all voice support during the
       transition. That's something I really need to work on.
- Pitch problem that's not cause by voice support is
     -  Pushing the tongue forward to increase resonnance impact
        my ability to properly form a note. It also makes pronunciaiton
        difficult. This is just a question of practice, its already easier than
        before.
     - When starting a new bar, to make the interpretation more lively
       I often jump octave and put myself at the extreme
      of my range (some notes where F-G5!!,
      very strong modulation helps in making them, but pitch suffers).


If you see other voice issues, please tell me
in a constructive way.

I think you need to spend your energy on your speaking voice.

For a singer pitch is not a minor problem, its like a drummer with a rhythm problem.  So what if DK is breathy, like Jerry Garcia, people go to hear her play, not to hear her sing.  And jazz audiences are a lot pickier then rock crowds are. 

I think its hard enough to sing in your real natural voice and in its real natural range, few, if any, can really change that.  I'm trying to think of a great singer who can sing in different voices and I'm failing to come up with any.

Tekla, I'm singing in my natural range.
Just not in my natural style; this impacts
voice support and pitch.

To sound female you've got to increase higher
harmonics and for that you need to do a couple
of things that influence how I sing and
I need to relearn them

My male pitch while not perfect (I've always
had issues with head to chest voice switching),
is better. As I said, I've performed quite a bit.
I've performed in pop settings with backings
more often, which obscures slight pitch issues.
Acapella is very unforgiving, and that's why
many artists never do it. Many pop artists with
not so good voice barely ever do live performance
except in their own shows (and even there,
you wonder if they're really singing!).

I love Diana Krall, I've been to Diana Krall concerts and have
all her music. My mother HATES her breathy voice,
so not everybody's got the same opinion on voice.
But, its truly her arrangements that are her strenght,
they are fantastic. I prefer her less orchestral ones were
she goes way too sirupy. Peel me a grape and popsicle
toes are lots of fun :-).

I've also gone to see many other
jazz artist in small and large settings.
I love female vocal jazz. It just makes me vibrate inside.

I enjoyed it. Don't know enough about music to say whether pitch and such is right or not. (I wish I did. Just wasn't granted the gift of song like my mother was.)
But to me, it is good if people enjoy it.
Your voice is good. How long have you been working on it? Did you take female voice training or something?

Quote from: Nero on December 09, 2007, 03:25:00 PM
I enjoyed it. Don't know enough about music to say whether pitch and such is right or not. (I wish I did. Just wasn't granted the gift of song like my mother was.)
But to me, it is good if people enjoy it.

Exactly. The analyzing and numbers and all that stuff... I have no idea.

All I know is I enjoyed listening to you, Keira. You made me smile ;)

~Kate~

I enjoyed it too.

It definitely sounded feminine to me, but my favorite part about it was the *strength* of your voice.

Singing A Capella is one of *the hardest* things to do as a musician.

A Capella singing is the hardest musical thing to do, but the hardest thing to do as a musician is to make a living at it.

Being a successful musician, is a combination of hard work, luck
and passion. Being willing to settle for a low wage to get
your music out is almost a prerequisite.

Celine Dion's mother sent a cassette of music to a failing agent
(her now husband) who then mortgage everything he owned
to make her succeed. If she'd met a less willing person,
would she have succeeded in the same way? Plenty
of very good artist singers in Quebec have failed.

The beatles had to slog it out for a few years then get refused
a couple of times, Decca had their first few songs and let
them go to EMI (dopes!). Its through the belief of George MArtin
and Brian Epstein that the beatles go their launch. Would they
have succeeded later, or anyway, if they hadn't met them, who
knows. It wouls have been a different group for sure. All I know it that it sure helped.

As for succeeding in A Capella Solo singing! Well, not sure
that exists, though some singers have minimal backing
and powerful voices and could be called ACapella.

If you listen to the Decca recordings and compare them with the EMI stuff that George Martin did the difference is huge.  When putting out good records/CDs an excellent producer is almost more important than the talent.  There is a reason they call him the fifth Beatle, and its not just because he played on a lot of those tracks either.  Music is product, the talent is only materials, its the producer that makes it product.  First of all, any good producer could take that mp3, and bend the pitch so its perfect, and that's just the beginning.

Thirty years in the music biz and I'm pretty sure musical talent has little to do with it.  Its like all the kids on UTube who are killer at shreading in their bedroom, but the bedroom is not the concert stage, and it takes more than riffs to be a real performer. 

And there are a few A Capella groups, the Bobs, there is one from Canada I think, and Choirs.  But for the most part its not very commercial - of course neither is jazz.  DK is one of the few jazz people that can sell more than a few hundred tickets per night.  I've watched McCoy Tyner and Stanley Clark and many other good people play to a about 125 in a major jazz club, in a jazz town.  If you can do jazz and sell 150+ a night you are a major star. 

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 09, 2007, 02:01:51 AM
paradise.mp3 (http://www.myspace.com/harpernicole)

??? nothing personal melissa but i thought this was keira's thread.  where ppl were supposed to give their opinion about HER singing >sigh<

Kiera,

You sound like a WOMAN!!!  You could fool me on the street anyday, I am so impressed by your voice!!!  For a person who has only ever heard youtube TS's, and Jerry Springer TV's I am so freakin amazed, what a lovely voice.

And god it much be hard as heck to sing that way, I could hear a little breaking up at only one part, but then you recovered, and sounded lovely.  With me having such a deep voice I hope that I can ever sound even close to that.

Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 06:45:09 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 09, 2007, 02:01:51 AM
paradise.mp3 (http://www.myspace.com/harpernicole)

??? nothing personal melissa but i thought this was keira's thread.  where ppl were supposed to give their opinion about HER singing >sigh<

I was merely illustrating an example of breathiness but, heck, what do I know? I am merely establishing myself as one of the top female jazz and blues vocalists in San Francisco.

(IRL I am one of the it girls :) )

Melissa,
What's it to you that
others don't agree on YOUR assessment
that my voice is ->-bleeped-<-. Is that invalidating
your own voice!

I don't need to tear down anyone. I am a professional and only giving you a professional opinion. I heard that Michael Jordan got cut in high school so who knows?

But when it comes to the Blues and Jazz, you either is or you ain't. It's called soul.

My opinion is very critical as I compete nightly against the best jazz vocalists in the world. If you enjoy  singing as a hobby, just have fun with it. At least you have the courage to ask for criticism. The next step would be to learn how to accept it graciously.

Locked until the AC kicks on.