Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have been noticing a lot lately the depictions of transgender people in entertainment. I wouldn't say they are positive. It is almost making fun of or tongue in cheek jokes. Is it just me? or they depict us as all flaming. We are like all other people and not all of us are flaming. So I find our depiction in entertainment not flattering and rather negatively. What do all of you think on this?

For me it depends on  the show/movie. I've seen plenty of over-the-top sterotypical representations of all walks of life. Context is everything.

Quote from: Faith on November 11, 2017, 10:46:52 AM
For me it depends on  the show/movie. I've seen plenty of over-the-top sterotypical representations of all walks of life. Context is everything.

That is a fair point!!!!!!

Quote from: Faith on November 11, 2017, 10:46:52 AM
For me it depends on  the show/movie. I've seen plenty of over-the-top sterotypical representations of all walks of life. Context is everything.

Faith, I agree with you. Hollywood has a tendency to pigeon hole and stereotype everyone. It doesn't surprise me that a film or TV director would want to an actor to portray a M-F transgender as flamboyant.  Sometimes this works and other times not so much but there are exceptions.   I personally thought Walton Goggins portrayed transgender woman Venus Van Dam superbly in "Sons of Anarchy".

Melissa

Lately the transwomen I've seen in movies and TV have been a little better. Sophia on OITNB is actually a transwoman. So is the character in sense8.  I did watch a really awful movie called Ticked off trannies with knives. The "trannies" were played by drag queens. They looked and acted just like drag queens act. Flaming. I think another problem is that some transwomen admire drag queens and emulate their flaming behavior, drag make up and speech patterns. I've seen transwomen on YouTube that sounded exactly like gay men. Using gay slang and inflections when speaking.  Cis women don't act that way.

Before anyone accuses me of bashing a particular group let me say I am not bashing anyone.  I'm just pointing out one potential reason that cis people stereotype transwomen as screaming, flaming drag queens.

I've seen the opposite as well as there's a move toward depicting seriously and sympathetically. I think flamboyant or comedic depictions were more common in the past to be honest.

Yeah, it's definitely getting better.  No more crying game jokes like in ace Ventura.  It's more trans are people too.

BTW, im not sure any of you had a hard time watching any trans depiction in anything.  I did, up until recently I would politely excuse myself and go hide.  I havent seen the crying game, or that Eddie rename movie still.  Are there others worth watching?

Bari Jo

Quote from: Bari Jo on November 12, 2017, 12:54:07 PM
Yeah, it's definitely getting better.  No more crying game jokes like in ace Ventura.  It's more trans are people too.

BTW, im not sure any of you had a hard time watching any trans depiction in anything.  I did, up until recently I would politely excuse myself and go hide.  I havent seen the crying game, or that Eddie rename movie still.  Are there others worth watching?

Bari Jo

I'm not sure how old it is but TransAmerica was pretty good. But I don't know if the actress was really trans or not. But she did a great job in the role.

Quote from: Julia1996 on November 12, 2017, 01:13:02 PM
I'm not sure how old it is but TransAmerica was pretty good. But I don't know if the actress was really trans or not. But she did a great job in the role.

Clearly a CIS woman (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005031/?ref_=tt_cl_t2)

Felicity Hoffman was the actress in TransAmerica. She's cis. The put some makeup FX on her to make her look "more trans."

I actually did not like that depiction too much. Maybe because I couldn't relate. Her character seemed over-obsessed with femininity, which is also a common trope.

A great depiction would be a trans actor in the role of a person not scripted as trans, just being a normal person without the plot having to focus on their trans-ness. I'm pretty tired of every movie with a trans character having their trans-ness be the focal point.

 I have started watching the series "Transparent" I've heard it is a good effort to portray the plight of a transgender older parent who is on her personal journey from her coming out to wherever she is at the moment. there are 4 seasons and I've only seen two episodes of the first season. The main character Maora is of a similar age to my own so I may be able to relate to a lot of here trials. Who knows it might even help.
  Anyway it is supposed to be very well done. I get it on amazon prime but I am sure it is available elsewhere.

 :laugh: The tagline for Ticked-off Trannies With Knives was:

"It takes balls to get revenge"   :laugh:

I know most of you do not know any of these people but men portraying women in film and tv has been around a long time. Like Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis, Tom Hanks and Peter Scolari, Milton Berle, Jonathan Winters, Tyler Perry, Flip Wilson, Arsenio, John Louigizamo, Patrick Swazey, Wesley Snipes and numerous others used for comic relief as if we are only here to be made fun of. It does not help that impersonators are the ones who get attention. It is only recently that we have been exposed as really existing and we are humans with rights also. 

I was thinking about some of the random appearances of transgender characters I've seen today, here are a few that come to mind that I liked and thought were good, even if two were heart breakingly sad:

1) Cold Case - Mediocre show at best, but this episode stuck with me even before I was out to myself. I loved it, though I have no idea if it was genuinely a good episode or I just loved it because I'm who I am. Unfortunately, given the nature of the show (looking into unsolved murders from decades before), the transgender character was deceased. Quick synopsis (spoilers, but I doubt anyone wants to watch through Cold Case ;D): Bloody clothes soaked with fatal amount of blood loss had been discovered in a dumpster decades before, but no case had ever developed. Looking into the case again, story was uncovered involving a transgender woman in the 70s who had an encounter with two guys, one a creep, the other sweet. When they found out she was trans, the creep reacted how you would expect. The sweet one came back to her later and despite the time and everything, they developed a relationship and fell in love. The boy's father found out, and basically caught them together and shamed and drug his son away. He then stood up to his father and went to return to her, but in her assumed rejection committed suicide before he reached her. He tried to save her, but was too late. I can't really remember why, I think because he knew she would never be given a decent funeral, he discarded the bloody clothes and buried her, and pretty much went on to never recover himself, always having loved her. (Before they knew it was a suicide, he in middle age in the present was the prime suspect.) I haven't seen it in god knows how many years so maybe misremembering some of it. ;D

2) The Closer - There's an episode that has a great portrayal of a lesbian trans woman by Beau Bridges. This one has to be seen.

3) There is also an episode of either the Closer or its spin off Major Crimes where they investigate the murder of a very young (maybe 12?) transgender girl, that has some very poignant moments. (I hate bringing up two that involve death, but I watch a ton of crime dramas so that is sort of my major point of reference.  :-X)

All three were overwhelmingly positive views of the trans people themselves (though The Closer/Major Crimes is like 75% LGBT staff I think so that may be expected ;D), even if not always a happy ending.

Quote from: Laurie on November 12, 2017, 04:12:23 PM
I have started watching the series "Transparent" I've heard it is a good effort to portray the plight of a transgender older parent who is on her personal journey from her coming out to wherever she is at the moment. there are 4 seasons and I've only seen two episodes of the first season. The main character Maora is similar to my own so I may be able to relate to a lot of here trials. Who knows it might even help.
  Anyway it is supposed to be very well done. I get it on amazon prime but I am sure it is available elsewhere.

This is actually a wonderful show! So beautifully shot and with such engaging characters! I actually argue that cis actors should be allowed to play trans people because Jeffrey Tambor does such a splendid job! I actually forget that he's a man in real life! lol He plays Maura THAT well! I almost wish Maura was a real person.

Another film in which I thought a cis actor player a trans person extremely well was "Soldier's Girl." Lee Pace played the titular character, and I actually had to google whether or not the actor was trans! I was that convinced!

Am I the only one who hates Transparent? It seems less and less about the trans character and more about her spoiled rotten adult children. Entire episodes where we "explore the sexuality of the children" and one has a lesbian relationship with a feminist. Cool, that's great, now show me the struggles of the trans person and let that be the focus. Too much filler, not enough things that fit the intended subject matter. Even in a program dedicated to a trans character, they take the back seat, they are somehow less important.

Personally, I think one of the best "shows" to watch is "Her Story." It's a series on youtube and it's really short. I'm not sure if they plan to make more but I hope they do. It actually feels like it understands trans people, which it should, because it is written, directed, and stars trans people. It feels more like what an average persons life would feel like.

Quote from: EvaMarie on November 12, 2017, 09:18:39 PM
Am I the only one who hates Transparent? It seems less and less about the trans character and more about her spoiled rotten adult children. Entire episodes where we "explore the sexuality of the children" and one has a lesbian relationship with a feminist. Cool, that's great, now show me the struggles of the trans person and let that be the focus. Too much filler, not enough things that fit the intended subject matter. Even in a program dedicated to a trans character, they take the back seat, they are somehow less important.

I admit, I don't really like it (and I'm a huge fan of Tambor) and one of the big reasons is the stuff with the children. It falls heavy into the "everyone is gay" trope, which always makes me feel like the entertainment industry is just pandering(while I don't like OITNB either, at least it makes more sense statistically because of the whole prison thing). I'm also not big on the whole "we're a comedy that is all drama and no jokes" genre that has developed lately.

Though to be fair, in general it's just not really my type of show. (I like straight up comedy (Kimmy Schmidt, Brooklyn 99), crime dramas, and sci-fi/horror. Pure character/life drama just isn't my thing.)

Quote from: Laurie on November 12, 2017, 04:12:23 PM
I have started watching the series "Transparent" I've heard it is a good effort to portray the plight of a transgender older parent who is on her personal journey from her coming out to wherever she is at the moment. there are 4 seasons and I've only seen two episodes of the first season. The main character Maora is of a similar age to my own so I may be able to relate to a lot of here trials. Who knows it might even help.
  Anyway it is supposed to be very well done. I get it on amazon prime but I am sure it is available elsewhere.

Transparent is awesome!  I devoured it all in 2 days lol
But I agree with others here.  It loses the focus on transition, and becomes more about drama/her kids. 
But honestly, it might have got boring if it was all about Moira/transition the whole time?

I thought it was the perfect amount of it actually, and great characters/stories that you actually care about.
Good music too.

Quote from: Roll on November 12, 2017, 09:42:59 PM
I admit, I don't really like it (and I'm a huge fan of Tambor) and one of the big reasons is the stuff with the children. It falls heavy into the "everyone is gay" trope, which always makes me feel like the entertainment industry is just pandering(while I don't like OITNB either, at least it makes more sense statistically because of the whole prison thing). I'm also not big on the whole "we're a comedy that is all drama and no jokes" genre that has developed lately.

Though to be fair, in general it's just not really my type of show. (I like straight up comedy (Kimmy Schmidt, Brooklyn 99), crime dramas, and sci-fi/horror. Pure character/life drama just isn't my thing.)

Exactly. Not everyone is gay, a lot of people aren't even a little gay. That's cool. But when movie/tv makers get something they run with it until it's disgusting. They just try to mash in everything they can because of course more is always better right? You can make up for a lack of a good script by just piling up the tropes. My girlfriend tried to get me to watch OITNB and was shocked when I didn't want to. "But there's a trans woman on it" she replied, as though that's my primary criteria for wanting to consume something. She tries really, REALLY hard, but sometimes falls short. It feels kind of like Transparent is the same way. "But it's about a trans person." Ya, and really poorly done too.

I don't tend to watch a lot of drama either. I love Kimmy Schmidt and New Girl but I watch a lot of things like Supernatural too. Mostly I just stream Magic the gathering players. Gotta step up my game.

Quote from: EvaMarie on November 12, 2017, 09:18:39 PM
Am I the only one who hates Transparent? It seems less and less about the trans character and more about her spoiled rotten adult children. Entire episodes where we "explore the sexuality of the children" and one has a lesbian relationship with a feminist. Cool, that's great, now show me the struggles of the trans person and let that be the focus. Too much filler, not enough things that fit the intended subject matter. Even in a program dedicated to a trans character, they take the back seat, they are somehow less important.

Personally, I think one of the best "shows" to watch is "Her Story." It's a series on youtube and it's really short. I'm not sure if they plan to make more but I hope they do. It actually feels like it understands trans people, which it should, because it is written, directed, and stars trans people. It feels more like what an average persons life would feel like.

See that's what I like about Transparent, though. The problem with shows like Her Story is that they're a lot like Christian films which are all message and no story, so I end up not caring about any of the characters because the whole thing reeks of propaganda, which to me, regardless of the message and whether or not I agree with it, is not really art. Boy Meets Girl had the same problem. I did like the film, but ultimately it's tone is no different than a Christian film like Fireproof or God's Not Dead, which are just plain preachy.

And the writing/directing staff of Transparent is made up entirely of trans people. The show's creator, Jill Soloway, is non-binary. And I don't think that the show pushes the "everyone is gay" trope at all (I've never even heard of such a thing). For starters, Josh Pfefferman and Shelly Pfefferman are both straight, so is Sarah's ex-husband Len and Rabbi Raquel and Shea and Davina. The only gay characters are Maura, Sarah and Ali.

I don't really understand the desire for shows that focus solely on trans issues. After I a while I stop caring because it's just treading the same water over and over and doing nothing to address anything else about the character other than the fact that they're trans. Being trans is such a small part of my life, I think it's a bit sad that all Hollywood and TV land think that that is the entirety of my identity/existence. I long for a film with a trans actor who is never even said to be trans by any of the characters. Like they are living stealth. Now THAT is something I would pay to see, because then we get to know the character.

It's no different than movies made about black people and the black community that focus solely on racism and civil rights... there are so many of them at this point it's nice to see a movie in which a black character is not fighting for equality and just living their life and being a character like all the other white characters. THAT'S equality. Not to mention that films that are all about trans issues isolate cis audience members who would benefit from seeing a trans person being a normal person and doing normal things. This will allow them to relate better to the character and apply those same attitudes towards actual trans people that they encounter. Imagine if you watched a movie about someone who was in a wheelchair and all it was about was how hard it was for them being handicapped... you wouldn't be able to relate much to them if you yourself were not in a wheelchair. But if they didn't focus so much on the handicapped aspect and instead looked at them as a individual person, allowing you to relate to their struggles that weren't related to their being handicapped, then it would help you see past their disability and see the human being.

Quote from: Allie24 on November 12, 2017, 10:39:40 PM
And the writing/directing staff of Transparent is made up entirely of trans people. The show's creator, Jill Soloway, is non-binary. And I don't think that the show pushes the "everyone is gay" trope at all (I've never even heard of such a thing). For starters, Josh Pfefferman and Shelly Pfefferman are both straight, so is Sarah's ex-husband Len and Rabbi Raquel and Shea and Davina. The only gay characters are Maura, Sarah and Ali.

The trope is mostly associated with anime, but a few western shows run into it. It isn't literally that everyone is gay, just that the statistical representation of LGBT romance among explicitly major characters is far higher than the real world (and as it does include the T, some would probably include Josh as well I suppose, even if of course he's not gay/bi for his particular romance, though I'm not particularly inclined to include it). The problem with the trope is that it is usually characters who by all rights should be pretty much entirely straight who have a same sex relationship(even if just a threesome or something, like AHS season 4), which in turn devalues the depiction of "legitimately" LGBT characters, and is often written in as nothing more than a shock for ratings grab. True Blood is probably the worst offender I can think of on this. Starts with a handful of excellent and well done gay characters and then just devolves into meaninglessness (Tara story arc, ugh... so bad...).

Quote from: Julia1996 on November 12, 2017, 11:12:54 AM
I think another problem is that some transwomen admire drag queens and emulate their flaming behavior, drag make up and speech patterns.

I feel mocked by drag.  I know that isn't the intent, but it's a hard feeling for me to shake.

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 12:49:27 AM
I feel mocked by drag.  I know that isn't the intent, but it's a hard feeling for me to shake.

I totally agree with you.  Going to a show has always made me uncomfortable.  Everytime I saw one, I'd think this is not who I am.  And then you still have the gd.  Being trans is sooo complicated.

Bari Jo

I always try to remember that Hollywood (just look at the mess they're in now) and the media (past messes as well) always try to influence the rest of society with their distorted idea of what the world is like based upon the aberration that is their lives.
      At first I had high hopes for "Transparent", partly because I really like the actors, but also because I AM a transparent of two grown boys.  It started out well, but no longer fits the promise of the title, IMHO. 
      I can tell you there have been plenty of movie comedy moments that we (my family and friends) have had together and I could/may write a book about my journey that could be filled with smiles AND tears and my wife is still here and not a lost love lesbian and my kids are wonderful caring not selfish men that I love dearly and accept me fully, not at all like "Transparent". 
     There is more than enough story to center on the trans trip, but Hollywood has to be as inclusive as possible to make the most money and has to bounce subject matter back and forth to cater to the short attention span of far too many people these days. 
     While not specifically a trans movie, more LBGT---, I was pleasantly surprised with Adam Sandler's "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry" (think I got that right).  The shower scene was so full of stereotypical male fears it had me rolling on the floor I was laughing so hard.  In the end I think it showed in a very sensitive way that what's really important about relationships is the caring, not the details.  Toni

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 12:49:27 AM
I feel mocked by drag.  I know that isn't the intent, but it's a hard feeling for me to shake.

I'm don't really feel that way. The point of it seems to be light-hearted parody of gender roles. I would actually love to be a drag king because the male stereotype fascinates me and would be fun to parody.

Quote from: Allie24 on November 13, 2017, 09:20:19 AM
I'm don't really feel that way. The point of it seems to be light-hearted parody of gender roles. I would actually love to be a drag king because the male stereotype fascinates me and would be fun to parody.

Trans woman drag king. Tiny heads would explode.

As per the drag discussion in general though (which I am going to bring back around to the original topic, just watch! ;D)... Honestly, I have mixed feelings about drag. I definitely don't understand it, but then that's okay. I want to be/am a woman, not dress up and perform in a nightclub wearing over the top outfits and makeup. I want to live it day to day, not as entertainment. It has definitely done a bit of damage to me over the years, fueling the "man in a dress" fears since that look is 95% of the entertainment industry's approach to the broader trans topic. And while that damage is not okay, to any of us, I don't hold that against drag I hold that against improper representation in the media. Basically, while it's not my thing, I have no ill feelings about it.

Having said, let me loop back around to the main topic... I've always had a soft spot for To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love Julie Newmar. Yes. That's the entire name of the movie if anyone is unfamiliar with it. Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo on a drag road trip basically. Comedy and romance ensues. The reason the movie meant a lot to me though was specifically John Leguizamo. Swayze and Snipes had the man in a dress thing going, but Leguizamo was cute. Not 100% passable, which is understandable considering he is a completely non-trans male actor, but definitely didn't have the man in a dress look (at least when he was in the more understated costumes later in the movie and not in full stage getup). I saw it at 13 in theaters, and it was the first time I can recall thinking that being a woman and actually looking like a woman was possible.

Quote from: Roll on November 13, 2017, 10:07:17 AM
Trans woman drag king. Tiny heads would explode.

As per the drag discussion in general though (which I am going to bring back around to the original topic, just watch! ;D)... Honestly, I have mixed feelings about drag. I definitely don't understand it, but then that's okay. I want to be/am a woman, not dress up and perform in a nightclub wearing over the top outfits and makeup. I want to live it day to day, not as entertainment. It has definitely done a bit of damage to me over the years, fueling the "man in a dress" fears since that look is 95% of the entertainment industry's approach to the broader trans topic. And while that damage is not okay, to any of us, I don't hold that against drag I hold that against improper representation in the media. Basically, while it's not my thing, I have no ill feelings about it.

Having said, let me loop back around to the main topic... I've always had a soft spot for To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love Julie Newmar. Yes. That's the entire name of the movie if anyone is unfamiliar with it. Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo on a drag road trip basically. Comedy and romance ensues. The reason the movie meant a lot to me though was specifically John Leguizamo. Swayze and Snipes had the man in a dress thing going, but Leguizamo was cute. Not 100% passable, which is understandable considering he is a completely non-trans male actor, but definitely didn't have the man in a dress look (at least when he was in the more understated costumes later in the movie and not in full stage getup). I saw it at 13 in theaters, and it was the first time I can recall thinking that being a woman and actually looking like a woman was possible.

I don't know the other 2 but I know Wesley Snipes. He played a drag queen???? OMG, I have to see that. In every movie he's done that I've seen he plays a really macho guy. I can't picture him as a drag queen. Lol

Quote from: Julia1996 on November 13, 2017, 10:16:33 AM
I don't know the other 2 but I know Wesley Snipes. He played a drag queen???? OMG, I have to see that. In every movie he's done that I've seen he plays a really macho guy. I can't picture him as a drag queen. Lol

That was the big hook of the movie. Swayze was also the tough guy/male lead type for over a decade at that point, so it was casting against type. (Swayze is the guy who is in movies like Ghost, Road House, Dirty Dancing, Point Break, and tons of others, he's a legend. Died in like 2009 from cancer.) Leguizamo was a relative unknown, a standup comedian just really making it in movies for a few years (he was in Carlito's Way and played Luigi in the Mario Bros. movie just prior to To Wong Foo, since then he's best known as Sid the Sloth in Ice Age ;D).

I want to see a movie/TV show with a trans actor playing a cis character!

Quote from: Allie24 on November 13, 2017, 01:04:30 PM
I want to see a movie/TV show with a trans actor playing a cis character!

I know you mean openly trans, but it's definitely happened more than once "secretly"(Caroline Cossey for sure, though her notable role was still a bit part). I bet that there are a number of actors and actresses that are full stealth no one thinks twice about. Statistically there almost has to be.

I understand that drag arose in response to societal shaming of homosexuality.  People marginalized by condemnation as sissies and effeminate performed drag as a raised middle finger against the idea that human beings are easily boxed and labeled. 

I also understand that drag queens have been "out" far longer than most transgender people and that many or most of them embrace the sort of social progressivism that benefits if not celebrates transgender folk.  Mine is a criticism of the eleventh hour.  Nevertheless, here it is:

We now find ourselves discussing how transgender people are portrayed and by whom they are portrayed in popular culture.  We absorb the warnings from entertainment insiders (e.g. Jen Richards, Janet Mock) who remind us that the portrayal of transwomen by cis males (aka transface) reinforces the societal perception that trans women are really just men in a costume.  Jeff Tambour (Transparent) deflected early criticism that he was a partner in this phenomenon by acknowledging that he understood the potential harm, that he was alert to the responsibility he had been offered, and that he was strongly committed to the advancement of transgender rights and opportunities, including those of his transgender castmates, writers and consultants. 

I won't tell you if Transparent is better theater than Her Story or any of the other offerings tastefully portraying the struggle of transfolk.  I do think that transface does a disservice to the trans community.  We are constantly lampooned as phonies and posers--men in dresses.  When the larger, undiscerning audience sees this literally casted into their entertainment, it damages our cause. 

Even if not originally intended to do so, how does drag performance harm us any less?

Every Queen I've ever spoken to has expressed nothing but love and support for TG people.

Wow everyone, I didn't know I would get such a response. I love that some of you have seen great depictions. I guess I am not watching the right movies or shows. I think what makes me somewhat upset is how they depict us as being secretly trying to deceive men. The character finds out she has something different in her pants and then he is completely turned off, because we are trying to deceive them. I understand some may feel this way when we tell them we are trans but, really you don't have to portray this in movies. I know like all women we are making strides in everything now. Great discussion and definitely has gone in some directions I didn't think of.

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 07:19:25 PM
I understand that drag arose in response to societal shaming of homosexuality.  People marginalized by condemnation as sissies and effeminate performed drag as a raised middle finger against the idea that human beings are easily boxed and labeled. 

I also understand that drag queens have been "out" far longer than most transgender people and that many or most of them embrace the sort of social progressivism that benefits if not celebrates transgender folk.  Mine is a criticism of the eleventh hour.  Nevertheless, here it is:

We now find ourselves discussing how transgender people are portrayed and by whom they are portrayed in popular culture.  We absorb the warnings from entertainment insiders (e.g. Jen Richards, Janet Mock) who remind us that the portrayal of transwomen by cis males (aka transface) reinforces the societal perception that trans women are really just men in a costume.  Jeff Tambour (Transparent) deflected early criticism that he was a partner in this phenomenon by acknowledging that he understood the potential harm, that he was alert to the responsibility he had been offered, and that he was strongly committed to the advancement of transgender rights and opportunities, including those of his transgender castmates, writers and consultants. 

I won't tell you if Transparent is better theater than Her Story or any of the other offerings tastefully portraying the struggle of transfolk.  I do think that transface does a disservice to the trans community.  We are constantly lampooned as phonies and posers--men in dresses.  When the larger, undiscerning audience sees this literally casted into their entertainment, it damages our cause. 

Even if not originally intended to do so, how does drag performance harm us any less?

I don't think that there is such a thing as "transface." It doesn't matter who it is that's playing a trans character, it's the character themself, at least it is to me. And let's say, hypothetically, that a trans person is cast in the role of a cis character. Is that "cisface"?

I used to agree with Richards and Mock on this topic, but then I realized that it doesn't really make a difference whether or not a trans woman is played by a trans woman or a cis man, because the people who think of us as "men in dresses" will see it that way no matter what. I think that if we really want to get the message across that we're actually factually female, then we'd cast cis actresses in those roles, because symbolic representation...

And the wonderful thing about drag is that it allows some of us to shed the oh-so-seriousness of our identities (and it's not even just our identities, it's everyone's, cis people love their genders just as much as we do, let's not forget that).

Quote from: Allie24 on November 13, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
I don't think that there is such a thing as "transface." It doesn't matter who it is that's playing a trans character, it's the character themself, at least it is to me. And let's say, hypothetically, that a trans person is cast in the role of a cis character. Is that "cisface"?

I was so close to making a joke about cisface to your previous comment about trans playing cis. ;D

Quote
I think that if we really want to get the message across that we're actually factually female, then we'd cast cis actresses in those roles, because symbolic representation...

I can't imagine that It's Always Sunny gets too much respect among the more PC crowd on this topic, but you know, it actually has a really great trans character that is played by two absolutely gorgeous cis women. The amazing Morena Baccarin in the pilot, and Brittany Daniel in the main series. On top of that, she is one of only a handful of genuinely sane and good intention-ed characters in the entire series who has some amazing dialogue trying to explain how her getting married to a man is not gay marriage.

Quote from: Roll on November 13, 2017, 10:40:05 PM


I can't imagine that It's Always Sunny gets too much respect among the more PC crowd on this topic, but you know, it actually has a really great trans character that is played by two absolutely gorgeous cis women.

Surely you see that the portrayal of a trans woman by a cis woman isn't going to further the perception that trans women are really men.  It's a lost opportunity to cast a trans woman, but it isn't transface. 

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 11:04:25 PM
Surely you see that the portrayal of a trans woman by a cis woman isn't going to further the perception that trans women are really men.  It's a lost opportunity to cast a trans woman, but it isn't transface.

(I'm super bored right now, so here is an overly long semi-reply that only tangentially addresses this. ;D)

Well, there's two ways to look at that I feel...
1) There is no difference between cis and trans women, therefore there should be no issue casting a cis woman as a trans woman or a trans woman as a cis woman. Life experiences may be different certainly, but then we don't always try to cast the role of soldiers with actual veterans. Acting is almost by definition one big lie about who someone is.

2) There is a difference between cis and trans women, and casting a cis woman in a role of a trans woman is "transface", but then casting a trans woman in the role of a cis woman is "cisface". For a comparison, let's forget the actual usage of blackface historically and look at more recent examples of casting someone in a role intended to be another race/ethnicity. Ie: A character in a book who is meant to be black being played by a white actor in the movie adaptation, or vice versa. When we start going down this path, we run into a serious issue of double standard. Because, while a cis woman playing a trans character or a white actor playing a black character are considered offensive, the opposite is virtually never considered in the same light.

Personally, I prefer scenario #1 both for my own peace of mind and as simply a film lover. I've always held that unless something, such as race, is an absolutely integral part of the character that can't be replicated by someone of a different group, at the end of the day the best actor should get the role. This is even more the case for cis vs trans characters, in which there should not be considered to be a major physical difference between the two that stands out like skin color does.

To offer an example, let's go all the way back to the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie. At the time of its release, there was a huge uproar in a combination of racist and "stick to the source material no matter what" fanboy circles that were furious that the villain, always white in the comics, was played by the actor Michael Clark Duncan, who if you are unfamiliar with was black. The thing is... Duncan nailed the role. Being white was never a definitive aspect of the character in the slightest. Being insanely huge and muscular to the point it just looks like fat (sumo style) was. And Duncan had that, in addition to being an amazing actor. He was the only highlight of an otherwise atrocious movie, and even the naysayers mostly relented on that.

Likewise, if you have a trans character and the best person for the role is a cis woman (or even a cis man, which absolutely works for a character at the beginning of transition without being insulting, a la Transparent), then they should get the role. That's just how acting is supposed to work.

Now having said that, there definitely should be more trans actors taken seriously. There are several quite talented out there. But I don't believe they should ever, EVER, get a role solely because they are trans, unless it is just something extra that allows them to bring something special to a character and puts their baseline acting skills over the top. (Ie: You have 10 actresses of equivalent skill, 9 cis and 1 trans, auditioning for the role of a trans woman. In that case, yeah, the actually being trans should probably be given some weight just as a pure extra.) Unfortunately, in general the entertainment industry is the single biggest pile of hypocrites on the planet, and for all their political endorsements and progressive causes they supposedly champion, they are the worst when it comes to practicing what they preach (see: the past two weeks). But that is an entirely separate issue I won't get into here.

I'd be curious to know how many transgender actor/actresses there really are. I have a suspicion it would be far less than the statistical equivalent for the general population, because avoiding attention is a big deal for many people. It's too easy to fear being the next Caroline Coussey. But I suspect this is already changing and will continue to change with new generations, with the ever growing number of sub 30 actors and models who come out as trans.

Different for Girls had a very good portrayal. SOA's Venus was superb, especially the love scene with Tig

One of the best things a out Transparent isthat it isn't propoganda.
Maura isn't a flawless hero. Her wife suffers too etc..
It's human and empathetic

I would rather see a cis woman portray a trans woman than a cis male. It's not accurate for a cis guy to portray a trans woman usually . Cis people think a cis man in the role of a transwoman is accurate but it's not. A transwoman will have had hrt which makes all the difference. And some have had ffs. 2 examples of what I'm talking about are,

1. The Christine Jorgenson story. It's an old movie but I still wanted to watch it. Christine was passable and pretty. In the movie she is portrayed by a cis male. He was neither pretty or passable as Christine. He looked like a guy dressed as a woman. I think that was a huge disservice to Christine Jorgenson. I realize that back then there were no trans actors. But even a cis female or even a more feminine looking cis male in that role would have been more accurate.

2. Soldiers girl. Calpernia isn't especially pretty in my opinion but she's attractive and passable. In this movie she was portrayed by a cis male. That was a disservice to her. The actor who played her wasn't passable as a woman. He looked like a guy with make-up and female clothes.

We all kind of look like guys in female clothes when we begin transition. Then there is hrt, hair removal, voice training or vocal surgery,  and painful surgical procedures. To cast a cis male in the role of a transwoman is insulting! It's like saying "we don't care what you've been through. You're still just a guy in drag and that's how we are going to portray you". That's totally messed up!

Movies like those just reinforce the idea that transwomen are just guys who cut off their Dick and put on a dress. It's hard to believe but there are people who think that's what SRS is. I'm not saying that cis guys can't portray transwomen. But they need to find a better match than they have in the past. A cis male portrayed Lilly in Danish girl. He was a great choice for that role. He looked female and did a very good job. And that movie was more accurate about what transwomen go through.

I know movies aren't real life but don't ever underestimate the power of movies. Lots of people think stuff they see in movies is the truth. It's sad but they do. Thankfully the entertainment industry is slowly changing how transwomen are portrayed.

It's a conundrum whether to cast male or female actors unfortunately. Sadly, male are more realistic at the start, but without the actual effects of hormones and transitioning, during the course of any storyline it will become unrealistic. Female are less realistic at the start but then become more realistic as it goes. Voice is also a bigger issue for the female actors I think.

Quote from: Julia1996 on November 14, 2017, 08:45:36 AM
2. Soldiers girl. Calpernia isn't especially pretty in my opinion but she's attractive and passable. In this movie she was portrayed by a cis male. That was a disservice to her. The actor who played her wasn't passable as a woman. He looked like a guy with make-up and female clothes.

I may be wrong, but in this case I think at the time the story took place Calpernia wasn't on hormones, just doing drag? (Meaning the male actor maybe actually was accurate, but I'm not really positive this is true, just something I remember reading years ago.) I know she was involved in the movie, at least. I don't think Lee Pace (who all else aside, amazing actor, Pushing Daisies is the best) really had the same look as her at all, though he was a way, way better choice than many actors overall.

(Edit: Okay, on Calpernia's site I found a reference to that she was "early in transition", and apparently early enough that she still didn't know how to do makeup subtly(without going full stage makeup). In that case, a male actor is understandable.)

And not directly related, but... You know what the biggest stroke of luck in the world was? Laverne Cox having a twin for pre-transition scenes in OITNB.

Some trans women don't pass, though and can't afford/can't have/don't want surgery. I think that if these attributes are integral to the character in a film then (if no non-passing trans woman is available) then a cis man should take the role.

The error in Hollywood is that some of these aspects are not even a part of the character's experience in the story, and therefore just exist because the writers/directors/actors were ill-informed/ignorant (prime example being Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club... probably one of the worst trans characters I have ever seen on film). But in a film like Normal, where you have a trans woman who can't afford to leave her small town and has no contact with a trans community (which is a real situation that can happen) then it makes total sense having a cis man in the role because she's not going to have access to any of those things.

Quote from: Allie24 on November 14, 2017, 10:20:07 AM
(prime example being Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club... probably one of the worst trans characters I have ever seen on film).

But then Jared Leto ruins everything.