Susan's Place Transgender Resources

What would be the consequences for a transitioned pre-op ->-bleeped-<- trying to board a plane while carrying ID that contradicts your gender? Does the TSA have a policy on this?

The NCTE warns (http://www.nctequality.org/Issues/travel.html):

QuoteInability to change the outdated gender marker on your official ID should not necessarily stop you from flying. Many trans people choose to fly regardless of this kind of ID issues and security people probably may not pay close attention to the gender marker. But be careful, a perceived discrepancy may cause you to be outed to or by airport personnel, and that can cause loss of privacy, discrimination and possibly even trigger hate violence.

<i>urk.</i> :(

Pre-op, you'd be considered a very very weird male
and depending on the country, would or would not
make a diff.

Post op, still a very weird male for them
until you get the passport changed (hopefully
you've got a transit passport in your new gender
but its not always possible),
until they stripsearch you... Then, Oh my, wouldn't
want to be in some countries in the world!!

I have not had a problem with the gender marker.  I had buckets of trouble when I still had a male name.

I've flown twice in the last 6 months as a pre-op, obviously dressed as female (I wore a skirt once), but I still had my male name and gender marker on my ID.  I had no problems whatsoever.  The last time, one of the security guys remarked after I walked through the metal detector "why did your parents call you xxxxxxx?".  I assumed he knew I was trans and I just laughed and nudged him on the shoulder.  I interpreted it as friendly.  This was in the continental US anyways.

Go for it, I didn't have any problems.

Are you thinking of flying or why are you asking?

I'm asking because I plan to travel to Canada next year for my SRS (if, that is, I succeed in finding a job soon). And because once I roomed at an LGBT conference with a gorgeous young trans lady who was worried that she would get busted by the TSA when she flew back, she kept exclaiming "I'm not able to look like a boy!" She really couldn't pass for male at all. I never found out if she made it home with no problems.

The State Department has decided to give me attitude. They sent me my new passport with my pretty face and my new legal girlname... and M instead of the F I had applied for. They also would not tell me any reason why they didn't honor the letter from my doctor. I got a regular 10-year passport instead of the 1-year gender-changed version for pre-ops. So I'm stuck with that until after I manage to get SRS, whenever that will be. And it's getting harder for me to pass as male any more too. Not that I would even bother trying.

Quote from: Hypatia on December 11, 2007, 08:19:27 PM
I'm asking because I plan to travel to Canada next year for my SRS (if, that is, I succeed in finding a job soon). And because once I roomed at an LGBT conference with a gorgeous young trans lady who was worried that she would get busted by the TSA when she flew back, she kept exclaiming "I'm not able to look like a boy!" She really couldn't pass for male at all. I never found out if she made it home with no problems.

The State Department has decided to give me attitude. They sent me my new passport with my pretty face and my new legal girlname... and M instead of the F I had applied for. They also would not tell me any reason why they didn't honor the letter from my doctor. I got a regular 10-year passport instead of the 1-year gender-changed version for pre-ops. So I'm stuck with that until after I manage to get SRS, whenever that will be. And it's getting harder for me to pass as male any more too. Not that I would even bother trying.

Hello, Hypatia,

I have flown from the U.S. (Washington DC area) to Toronto several times and no one ever gave me a hard time.

I had a passport done when I was still living in my past life and it has my pic from back then, the "M" gender marker, and the name on my birth certificate from Pennsylvania.

Since then I changed my name and sent my passport back for name change and *gender marker change* as my court order did indeed change my gender marker.

I got my passport back with my changed name inside of the back cover and a letter stating that they cannot change the gender without a letter from the GR surgeon.

I'll never forget the first time I was flying back from Canada.  Two TSA officers were "tossing" my luggage.  The male officer asked me whose brassieres and panties were in my suitcase.  I told him that they were mine and that I am transsexual.  I did not stammer or stutter, I just looked him in the eye.

The suitcase was closed and I moved on.  I don't know if they still toss your luggage on your way back to the USA but they sure tossed mine!

Hope this lends some clarity to your situation.

Wing Walker
Flown Less-Than-Friendly Skies before

Quote from: Hypatia on December 11, 2007, 08:19:27 PM
I'm asking because I plan to travel to Canada next year for my SRS (if, that is, I succeed in finding a job soon). And because once I roomed at an LGBT conference with a gorgeous young trans lady who was worried that she would get busted by the TSA when she flew back, she kept exclaiming "I'm not able to look like a boy!" She really couldn't pass for male at all. I never found out if she made it home with no problems.

The State Department has decided to give me attitude. They sent me my new passport with my pretty face and my new legal girlname... and M instead of the F I had applied for. They also would not tell me any reason why they didn't honor the letter from my doctor. I got a regular 10-year passport instead of the 1-year gender-changed version for pre-ops. So I'm stuck with that until after I manage to get SRS, whenever that will be. And it's getting harder for me to pass as male any more too. Not that I would even bother trying.

What did your doctor's letter say?  Have you received your letters of recommendation for SRS yet?  I think the State Dept. will change gender designation if the intention to have SRS is inevitable but as you pointed out in your post, it doesn't sound so inevitable, at least not at this point in time.

Well, in Canada, I think there's ZERO issues,
especially since your obviously coming to Montreal
and Montreal's quite use to this since Brassard
patients are not rare!

But in the USA, the TSA people have almost unlimited power in that airport - to think they might be bound by some sort of law, like the Constitution, well, that's SO pre-9-11 thinking - and if they don't like you, your F******.  There is nothing you can do.

Even if they don't like you, your passport is still
a proper ID and if you look like your ID and
the name's your name, why would be the problem?
Unless your on the no fly list
Why on earth would there be any problem

There are problems beyond the NO FLY list.  If they want to pull you aside for a 'little extra search' nothing you can do to stop them.  At that point, you can't even say, "forget it, I'll take the train" -- if they want to strip search you right then and there, they have that right (as minimum wage people at that).

Lucky for me I love trains and bars, so Amrak is good by me.  I would not fly if I had to.

There is another option to coming to Montreal
if you prefer a land crossing.
Landing at Platsburg's new international airport
and taking a bus or renting a car and crossing into Canada,
you can do the same on the way back.
Its not fast, but you avoid airports.
But, people at land crossing are often lot less knowledgeable
of these kind of special cases so I don't know if this is really better.


Even if they take you aside and strip search you.
Its very unpleasant, but its not the middle east
(where with such an ID I'd be really worried), they
would not find anything and have no ground to hold you.

BTW, I forgot, in Montreal, you clear US customs in Canada!!
So, your still on Canadian soil while your going through US
customs and the worse that can happen if they turn you back
is your stuck in Montreal where you can go to the US consulat and get things sorted (which should not be hard). You could even go
or ask the consulat for advice before travelling back to

US agents living in Montreal are probably not as terrible as those
at more backward airports.

Anyway, I think the chance of getting pulled is remote if you've got a surgeon's letter with you and clearly state what the deal is. What custom's agents are looking for most is lyars, no matter what's your story, if your status is legal and if your a US resident in good standing or US citizen, you've got the right of entry in the US.

I've been in the interview zone a few time at the Montreal airport because I was going to work or get interviews in the US.

A lot of hysteria on this thread.  First of all the TSA has seen plenty of us, most don't even bat an eye as long as the name on the ticket matches the one on the ID period.  Also did you apply for a Limited Validity(?) passport?  If you have documentation they are required to issue you a temporary FEMALE passport that's good for one year.  If you have time return the male passport with some documentation.  If you don't have the luxury of time (a passport can take 3 months to process) just suck it up and like I said: They've seen plenty of us.  Chill.

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 08:56:57 PM
A lot of hysteria on this thread.  First of all the TSA has seen plenty of us, most don't even bat an eye as long as the name on the ticket matches the one on the ID period.  Also did you apply for a Limited Validity(?) passport?  If you have documentation they are required to issue you a temporary FEMALE passport that's good for one year.  If you have time return the male passport with some documentation.  If you don't have the luxury of time (a passport can take 3 months to process) just suck it up and like I said: They've seen plenty of us.  Chill.

I'm sorry but I think it is a valid question.  I dont sense any hysteria going on here, just differences of opinion.  Maybe the one who should chill is you since nobody is being confrontational about anything.

I, too, think it's a valid question.  I do think it would make a lot of difference if your ID picture did not match how you looked at the moment.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Valentina on December 14, 2007, 09:15:59 PM
I'm sorry but I think it is a valid question.  I dont sense any hysteria going on here, just differences of opinion.  Maybe the one who should chill is you since nobody is being confrontational about anything.

I didn't say it wasn't a valid question.  But some people did seem to be over-reacting some.  For example:

QuoteBut in the USA, the TSA people have almost unlimited power in that airport - to think they might be bound by some sort of law, like the Constitution, well, that's SO pre-9-11 thinking - and if they don't like you, your F******.  There is nothing you can do.

The original poster has a new pic on the passport.  Her name on the passport probably matches the name on the ticket.  As a result there shouldn't be a problem.  I'm not being confrontational, I know what things were like when I started out and how I worried needlessly over certain things.  I'm only letting her know that this really isn't a problem.  Like I said: The TSA has seen it all.

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 09:38:55 PM

Quote from: Valentina on December 14, 2007, 09:15:59 PM
I'm sorry but I think it is a valid question.  I dont sense any hysteria going on here, just differences of opinion.  Maybe the one who should chill is you since nobody is being confrontational about anything.

I didn't say it wasn't a valid question.  But some people did seem to be over-reacting some.  For example:

QuoteBut in the USA, the TSA people have almost unlimited power in that airport - to think they might be bound by some sort of law, like the Constitution, well, that's SO pre-9-11 thinking - and if they don't like you, your F******.  There is nothing you can do.

The original poster has a new pic on the passport.  Her name on the passport probably matches the name on the ticket.  As a result there shouldn't be a problem.  I'm not being confrontational, I know what things were like when I started out and how I worried needlessly over certain things.  I'm only letting her know that this really isn't a problem.  Like I said: The TSA has seen it all.

has it occurred to you that maybe the newbies can benefit from this info? not everybody is travelling with a passport with a mismatch gender, ya know?

You people really know how to welcome new members.  I know other members here who could vouch for my credentials.  But I'm trying to remain stealth.  I think I'll just go and let you kids have the sandbox to yourselves.

Whatever

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 09:54:20 PM
You people really know how to welcome new members.  I know other members here who could vouch for my credentials.  But I'm trying to remain stealth.  I think I'll just go and let you kids have the sandbox to yourselves.

Whatever

thank you for your thoughtfullness :)

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 09:54:20 PM
You people really know how to welcome new members.  I know other members here who could vouch for my credentials.  But I'm trying to remain stealth.  I think I'll just go and let you kids have the sandbox to yourselves.

Whatever

Awwww, Marlene,
Please don't get upset.  Nobody was angry.  Cool down.  We do appreciate your input.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fferskywalker.fotopages.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fshy.gif&hash=110dc3c6ebc69a3aa8451469bade34c62423fad5)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 08:56:57 PMdid you apply for a Limited Validity(?) passport?  If you have documentation they are required to issue you a temporary FEMALE passport that's good for one year.  If you have time return the male passport with some documentation.

As I said above, I provided the documentation when I applied, but they did not give it to me. And when I tried to inquire the reason why, all I got was attitude but no answers.

Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 01:24:35 PM

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 08:56:57 PMdid you apply for a Limited Validity(?) passport?  If you have documentation they are required to issue you a temporary FEMALE passport that's good for one year.  If you have time return the male passport with some documentation.

As I said above, I provided the documentation when I applied, but they did not give it to me. And when I tried to inquire the reason why, all I got was attitude but no answers.

What is their policy for gender markers on a passport? Maybe it's not "attitude," but rather just following procedure? Most agencies seem to want a surgeons's letter that SRS has been completed. At least that's what I need to change the gender on my Birth Certificate, Driver's License, and Social Security.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on December 15, 2007, 02:23:09 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 01:24:35 PM

Quote from: Marlene on December 14, 2007, 08:56:57 PMdid you apply for a Limited Validity(?) passport?  If you have documentation they are required to issue you a temporary FEMALE passport that's good for one year.  If you have time return the male passport with some documentation.

As I said above, I provided the documentation when I applied, but they did not give it to me. And when I tried to inquire the reason why, all I got was attitude but no answers.

What is their policy for gender markers on a passport? Maybe it's not "attitude," but rather just following procedure? Most agencies seem to want a surgeons's letter that SRS has been completed. At least that's what I need to change the gender on my Birth Certificate, Driver's License, and Social Security.

No.  There is a limited validity passport that is good for one year.  From what I remember a letter from the surgeon you're going to is sufficient to obtain a LVP that says "female".  It sounds like Hypatia has run into somebody that doesn't know the rules or they are just being a jerk.

Posted on: December 15, 2007, 04:00:57 PM

---

Quote from: Kate on December 15, 2007, 02:23:09 PM
What is their policy for gender markers on a passport? Maybe it's not "attitude," but rather just following procedure? Most agencies seem to want a surgeons's letter that SRS has been completed. At least that's what I need to change the gender on my Birth Certificate, Driver's License, and Social Security.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/passport.html


Here's a link that outlines what I said. ;D

From your link:

QuoteI got a call from the passport office telling me that they could issue a temporary (1 year) passport with my new name and "Female" as long as my doctor sent a letter to them stating that I was his patient and had SRS scheduled.

A few days later, I received my new passport with everything as it should be; no aliases, no indication of my transgender status, just a note that this is a temporary passport.

I did everything as described above. But they still did not give me the temporary passport. I got a regular 10-year passport with M on it. I immediately called the help line. They told me I needed to make an appointment at the passport office downtown. I scheduled the appointment, drove downtown and spent $12 on parking. I took a number and waited. The woman I spoke to there would not tell me the reason why my doctor's letter was not accepted. She would not look at the copy of the doctor's letter I had brought. She said only the office in Philadelphia that issued my passport knew the reason why my request was not honored. No, I could not contact them. She told me to call the help line. The same help line that had sent me to the downtown office. I was getting the runaround. I called the help line while I was right there. When I asked why, they said I had to have surgery and pretended not to know about the 1-year temporary passport for pre-ops. When I insisted about that, she looked up the rules. My doctor had asked to be put on the line to find out from them directly what to write. They said no, he could not talk to them. No, they would not e-mail me the rules either. I asked them to read me the rules and I tried to jot down what was being read to me over the phone. But then my cell phone's battery ran out. When I got home, I went to their web site and found their contact form. I described my problem and asked what to do. I never got a response. That's what I mean by they gave me attitude instead of information. I did follow the f|_|cking procedure... for all the good it did me.

They sound like jerks.  I would just suck it up and use the "M" passport.  The key thing they are looking for is that the name on your ID and ticket match.  If it would make you more comfortable, take along a "carry letter" from your therapist stating that you are a patient of his and are in transition.  The TSA has seen plenty of us before.

I have an on-line friend from California who's going to Montreal next month and the office she dealt with was uber helpful.

I am not a US citizen Hypatia but do you remember that I was just in the States for Halloween?.  Well now I have moved to Brussels and I had to travel with my passport that has a big, fat M on it.  Argentina doesnt allow transsexuals to change their sex on legal documents even after GRS.  This is the main reason why I came to Europe.  Peeps are more open minded here and I have got the chances to become a citizen of Belgium without much of the red tape I find in my home country.  Anyway, nobody seemed to notice the M on my passport.  They didnt question me or detain me, but to be safe I carried all my therapists documentation with me.  Good luck :)

Quote from: Pia on December 16, 2007, 03:31:40 AM
Anyway, nobody seemed to notice the M on my passport.  They didnt question me or detain me, but to be safe I carried all my therapists documentation with me.  Good luck :)

That's what I'm wondering... which is more likely to create problems? A mismatch between my appearance and an "M" sex marker on the passport? Or a mismatch between an "F" on my passport and an "M" on all my other identification (Social Security, Birth Certificate, Driver's License)?

I didn't push my luck with changing the marker on those IDs yet, as officially, they all require SRS to change, and I've been "doing things by the book" so far. I'm wondering if it's thus BETTER to keep an "M" on the passport just to remain consistent?

~Kate~

I have F on my driver's license--but it's a temporary one. My doctor certified to the Virginia DMV that I'm surgery-tracked, and they grant it to pre-op for 18 months. If I don't get SRS before the time is up, it reverts to M.

I got F on my Social Security simply for the asking. I got lucky when I went to the SSA office (right after my hassles at the passport office), I was seen by a nice lady who didn't demand proof of surgery. However, my Social Security card doesn't indicate gender anyway, just my name and number.

So here's my scorecard:

Driver's license--I went by the book and my request was fulfilled in due course.
Passport--I went by the book but instead I got stonewalled.
Social Security--they bypassed procedure and simply gave me what I wanted.

<shrug> Go figure...

I do not have a passport as I never had a need for one. However, i have had to fly and present my old male ID due to issues I am having with the name change. Even though I was dressed about as masculine as I could and the fact that both the license and ticket had the male name, I was called Miss and Ma'am the entire time and they actually feminised my first name. It was surreal. When the metal detector flipped out on me, I had to wait for a female agent to come over and wand me.

Fortunately I have never had a problem but I have heard horror stories from others.

Hypatia, you have a right to  have a temp passport, get an advocate to help you, perhaps your Congress person, or if you have any TG legal help in your area. Don't give up!


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Quote from: Keira on December 11, 2007, 12:20:23 PM

Pre-op, you'd be considered a very very weird male
and depending on the country, would or would not
make a diff.

Post op, still a very weird male for them
until you get the passport changed (hopefully
you've got a transit passport in your new gender
but its not always possible),
until they stripsearch you... Then, Oh my, wouldn't
want to be in some countries in the world!!

I got arrested once a few years ago because I tried to use an old male bank card. They thought I had stolen it even though I insisted it was mine.......

Just the other day the TSA was voted as the most disliked government organization, tying with the IRS and doing worse than FEMA.  So, its not just us that has a problem with them.

WASHINGTON, Dec 20 (Reuters) - Airport security lines can annoy passengers, but there is no evidence that they make flying any safer, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday.

A team at the Harvard School of Public Health could not find any studies showing whether the time-consuming process of X-raying carry-on luggage prevents hijackings or attacks.

They also found no evidence to suggest that making passengers take off their shoes and confiscating small items prevented any incidents.

The TSA said that they had ""defended its measures by reporting that more than 13 million prohibited items were intercepted in one year," the researchers added. "Most of these illegal items were lighters."

Flick your bic?  All of this stuff was unnecessary to begin with, the pre9-11 stuff, brought about by a plane crash later proved NOT to be terrorist, did little either.

And a passport is really not for the country issuing it, its for the country that the person is trying to get into.  I seem to recall some sort of international agreement about them.  Which is why they look so similar.

I have flown a lot and never had a problem...my passport still has that dang old 'M' on it while the rest of my documentation has the 'F'...and I've never had a problem...well...except once...but I think it was more the security check-point worker had a problem with me then anything. Once I demanded to see his supervisor things went better.

I was flying into Guatemala a few years back and when I got to customs they looked at my passport and tourist card and said I could go ahead and change the gender marker to 'F' it I wanted, so I did. You don't need to present your passport to often, but the tourist card can be demanded by just about any cop that feels like it...and since I was presenting as female and had letters from my doctor's I could mark the 'F'. Then while the guy was going through my bags, he told me to avoid a couple of areas in Guat City because they had recently had a number of us 'girls' killed in those areas...

Personally I think a lot of it has to do with your attitude more then anything...but that's just my opinion on the matter...

Peace and love,
Izzy

PS. The only place I ever had a problem flying into and going through customs was Germany, but that was back in the late-80s and it wasn't as common to run into us girls back then....

Me, unless its major money business ($1k per day or more), I will not fly.  Even then, if they are flying me out, they put me on a train on the way back (I've had to do it twice in the last five years).  Its just much more civilized to take the train.

Quote from: tekla on December 27, 2007, 08:36:48 PMif they are flying me out, they put me on a train on the way back

Umm... One-way airplane ticket? Sounds like a good way to get pulled aside and strip searched.

It really doesn't seem to be a problem. Chicago to Baltimore as a girl with male ID on Southwest. DC to Charlotte on US Air. And Amtrak is a breeze.

I guess international trips might be difficult but we will see.

Alison

There are going to search me anyway, they hate the tools I travel with.  And my answers to their questions (largely consisting of asking them what Constitutional authority gives them the right to ask me that in the first place) does not exactly float their boat either.  But, I'm not checking a few thousand dollars worth of electronic diagnostic equipment through the den of thieves that run baggage areas.  Nor am I going to inform anyone of my business other to answer "work". 

But the tickets tend to be bought round trip (some accounting deal I think) then when I get there I turn in the return ticket, buy the train ticket and bill them for the difference, if any.  And, once I get on the train all is mellow.  I can go to the club car, get a few drinks, find a table and put out a deck of cards and a cribbage board and have someone to talk with in less than 10 minutes.  And, unlike airline food - which, if you even get it anymore, still has that 'no one's ever asked for seconds' quality to it - dinner on the train is AbFab.