Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been on and off in different parts of the transgender community for a very long time.I do very much love interacting among others and learning about myself and each other, being able to give and receive support is probably the strongest and closest ties we have. I'm also routinely frustrated by the amount of division on opinions and political affairs. I'm on the moderate side of most subjects, and I'm routinely frustrated by transgender people who do not understand genderfluid/NB people are part of the trans* community as much as I am frustrated when I find a lot of trans people who seem far too easily  offended/mad/irritated (mainly by semantics or non-hostile comments that could be ignorant, but are ultimately harmless)


Here's one example I am confused about, so feel free to give me some insight on this, the more discussion on the topic the better.


If someone asked you "What are your pronouns?", would you be upset and angry?  Or would you use the opportunity to tell them?

On the one hand, it seems fairly polite. A lot of people get very frustrated or sad when their pronouns are used incorrectly, so being given the opportunity to be gendered correctly by a stranger 100% of the time seems like a good opportunity and shows the stranger cares about what their gender really is vs. What they look like


But some people seem to hate this because it's singling them out and reminding them they do not pass. The fact that they dont ask this of other people is reminding them that they are trans and not just cis. It also doesnt help because sometimes people don't want to be asked such a direct question and outed depending on the environment.


It seems like too much of a dual-edged sword. Like no matter what you do you would always offend or hurt someone. I did consider asking people's pronouns at one point until I found out it could be construed as hurtful rather than helpful and affirming, I guess I'll just stick to not gendering people *at all*. Generally speaking, I do not gender random strangers (i.e sir/ma'am) I hardly know, and tend to only gender people I know well.

When I see someone and am not sure of their gender; it's because I see them as in between or androgynous. Not because I think they look like a particular gender. So I don't think people should be offended you ask. It's definitely a lot better to ask then misgender a person and leave them feeling horrible about themselves for the rest of the day. It should become as much the norm as asking someone's name.

If I am unsure of someone I just use their name. I'm not going to ask what they want to be called, that just seems awkward. I can usually pick it up from observing them and the people they interact with anyway.

But to answer the question I'd rather not be asked, because it helps gauge just how much I do pass without influencing the situation. It doesn't offend me anyway, if it happens with people I don't know very well, since they don't know any better.

But if they do ask, it's fine. Feels a bit contrived, but it's fine.

Asking a person's pronouns is a bit awkward, but it is polite and respectful.  I would much rather be asked my pronouns than be misgendered.

I would be extremely upset by either question actually. But I suppose if someone had outed me I would rather be asked about pronouns than misgendered. Before I transitioned no one ever asked me which pronoun I preferred. They were never that polite about it. I had people ask me " what are you?" Or " you're a girl.......right?" or " what are you supposed to be?".  And once when I was with my mom this guy had reffered to us as "ladies". Of course my mom just had to tell him I was a boy. He sneered and said " yeah, good luck with that" and started laughing. If I don't know if someone is male or female I would never ask. I use gender neutral pronouns until I know for certain what they prefer.

I hope that I'm looking female enough that no one would need to ask.  I'm relying on clothes, hair and makeup until the HRT works more of its magic, so I'd hope that anyone would be able to figure it out by my presentation. 

I would rather be asked politely than misgendered.

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I am probably one of the few that finds being asked what pronoun to use more annoying than being misgendered

Quote from: plastic-mayhem on January 14, 2018, 02:25:43 PM
I am probably one of the few that finds being asked what pronoun to use more annoying than being misgendered

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For myself if some one asked me what pronouns I like and Name I would be fine with it. I try to go with the way some one is dressed or presenting them selves and go from there as well. Usually if some one is dressed as a female than they want to be addressed as such and vica verca 

Personally I've never really been someone to get super angry when someone names me wrong.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I kinda just find it as a waist of time. It doesn't bother me anyways, I'd just rather politely say "oh actually..." and people are usually fine.

But I mean MOST people in the world aren't transgender so MOST people in the world you meet you aren't going to say Hi I'm bob, you must be steve, btw you do go by he right? Just sometimes though you won't necessarily know and I personally just think don't worry about it first thing and if you grow a closer bond to that person then perhaps you can bring it up. But I don't really feel it's necessary to establish it right away when you meet someone.

That's just me though, I know there are people who DO want to establish that first thing, and if I meet such a person then I'd respect their request, but naturally I don't worry about it.

Assuming they actually plan on respecting my pronouns and aren't just trying to single me out and dismiss me, I'd rather be asked than have the wrong assumption rubbed in my face repeatedly. I know I don't pass 100% of the time and am not offended when people aren't sure.

I'm always happy to be asked for my pronouns,  and other trans* people I know feel the same.

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Quote from: Sam314 on January 14, 2018, 05:11:59 PM
But I mean MOST people in the world aren't transgender so MOST people in the world you meet you aren't going to say Hi I'm bob, you must be steve, btw you do go by he right?

It depends on your presentation.  I present pretty femme, so if someone doesn't think about people being transgender, they are going to identify me as female and assume she/her pronouns.  The pronoun question only arises for me if someone identifies me as trans and either is clueless (in which case they should ask) or wants to be rude (in which case they will deliberately use the wrong pronouns). 

For someone who presents more androgynously than I do, an unsuspecting person may genuinely not know what to use.  They may not think of transgender, but simply can't identify the person's gender, or they may think of trans but don't have enough obvious clues to take a guess.

Because we want people to not misgender us intentionally or accidentally, I hope all trans folk would encourage people to ask, as the less painful alternative.

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 14, 2018, 06:02:46 PM
For someone who presents more androgynously than I do, an unsuspecting person may genuinely not know what to use.  They may not think of transgender, but simply can't identify the person's gender, or they may think of trans but don't have enough obvious clues to take a guess.

You do have a fair point. For ME I just think if you're complete strangers, no need to ask about it. If I didn't know you I wouldn't want you asking me, mind your own business XD
But if we have been talking a little then it might come up as a "I just want to know so I don't accidentally insult you" thing.
Just how I feel about it, still willing to respect someone if they prefer otherwise.

Quote from: Sam314 on January 14, 2018, 05:11:59 PM
Personally I've never really been someone to get super angry when someone names me wrong.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I kinda just find it as a waist of time. It doesn't bother me anyways, I'd just rather politely say "oh actually..." and people are usually fine.

But I mean MOST people in the world aren't transgender so MOST people in the world you meet you aren't going to say Hi I'm bob, you must be steve, btw you do go by he right? Just sometimes though you won't necessarily know and I personally just think don't worry about it first thing and if you grow a closer bond to that person then perhaps you can bring it up. But I don't really feel it's necessary to establish it right away when you meet someone.

That's just me though, I know there are people who DO want to establish that first thing, and if I meet such a person then I'd respect their request, but naturally I don't worry about it.

No, most people aren't trans but people are slowly becoming more knowledgeable about trans people.  It's not something that comes up really often, but it's pretty much common knowledge that my dad has a trans daughter and other officers have asked him for advice on dealing with transgender people.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on January 14, 2018, 12:57:13 AM
...  I'm also routinely frustrated by the amount of division on opinions and political affairs. ... I'm routinely frustrated by transgender people who do not understand genderfluid/NB people are part of the trans* community as much as I am frustrated when I find a lot of trans people who seem far too easily  offended/mad/irritated...

If someone asked you "What are your pronouns?", would you be upset and angry?  Or would you use the opportunity to tell them?

... It seems like too much of a dual-edged sword. Like no matter what you do you would always offend or hurt someone. I did consider asking people's pronouns at one point until I found out it could be construed as hurtful rather than helpful and affirming, I guess I'll just stick to not gendering people *at all*. ...

I think intent matters a lot... If the intent is sincere, I don't mind if someone asks me preferred pronouns.

I've been misgendered before but it's always a case where I can tell someone is managing the programming within their brain in connection with their knowledge I'm a genetic male... I often ignore it at first, especially if I'm amidst others who gender properly... the other person may even correct right away, or next item it's correct, then there's a slip again, then correct... and it gets better. (All that without my having to do a single thing but be patient.)

It would be hypocritical of me to criticize someone in that scenario because I myself have misgendered before and it was not purposeful at all. I needed time to adjust... people were thankfully patient with me... I felt bad enough as it was.

As well, I've seen trans people misgender themselves... I was at a conference once and saw it happen several times, one by a speaker.

It seems all forms of people need time to adjust... our society has a lot of boxiness because we're coming out of eras of extremely limited ways of looking at human life. We have 1000s of years of conflation of how primitive society defined things and that being "just the way it is" sort of thing.

One hypocrisy of that is even those primitive ways are not "just the way it is" but rather a way that formed through hard fought efforts to form a more civilized intelligent world... so progress was made and somehow people (societies) think that's it... this must be it and get stuck in their ways... that got passed down, including passed down to us.

If I were to detect someone purposefully saying or doing something to try to cause hurt or otherwise be disrespectful... that's a different matter altogether. It seems most often it's not this... at least not in my experience.

If someone is misgendering or the like on purpose, I think it's important to consider the greater context... is it one person you will never see again? If so, it may be better not to get trolled into looking like a complainer.

I also think sometimes when someone seems to have ill intent, perhaps trolling, it can be very powerful just say thanks and be on my way. In my way of seeing it, it sort of leaves the cause and effect with the person in a way where it will roost at the right time/way to help them advance in the way they need to. I hardly need to do anything... you reap what you sew and I also hate making demands that someone be different in areas like this if I can help it... it seems petty and lowers me... I don't need folks to gender me properly to know who I am so if it's someone in passing who is trying to be a jerk, I don't waste my time on a jerk unless it seems like there's reasonable latitude to change that and build bridges.

Not to say I won't take stands... just I've learned sometimes less is a lot more... I have no formulas... just saying sometimes it seems best to be cordial and move on if someone is trying to be purposefully hurtful.

None of this is to say acceptance and proper gendering, or at least efforts to do so in a positive way, isn't heaven... I think we all need a little of that... including cis folks frankly... it's got to be hard when you live in a mostly backwards unaccepting environment. I'm fortunate to find mostly acceptance but I try to remember it's not like that everywhere.

I've found I cannot influence how people act or think. So I really don't care. The important thing is, "How do I feel about myself" My self esteem is higher than ever and it really does not matter. Most responses are phony anyway. I can't tell you how many insincere "Have a nice day's" I've heard. If I were 5'7" I might think different. What worry's me Is no longer having the strength to defend myself. If someone misplaces a knife wound I will still bleed out because I am a hemophiliac due to taking warfarin.

Thanks for the responses, still a lot of different opinions across the board so there's not really an easy general solution when meeting someone you're unsure of their gender

@Viktor Fair point, I think when intent is meant to be good that's a fair response. I dont think watching how they dress or act is a good measure if that as well is also androgynous in nature. Perhaps using "they" would be the most honest answer at that point, really no way around that unless you outright ask their gender

@Sam314 Seems not to be a general opinion though from what I've seen, though


Sounds liked mixed reviews still but from what I've gathered, intent matters. Context probably matters too, it might be more obvious to ask about pronouns at an LGBT event than out in public, I suppose. Besides that, generally speaking, seems neutral pronouns are the only feasible solutions I can think of. I know even THEN some people will feel bad because it reminds them they do not pass and are not acknowledged as their gender buuut really not much else to do at that point, sadly part of being pre-HRT is just not easily being identified as your gender from the getgo, and those are basically the best solutions.

I think part of the reactions might be mood-based? More "down" people seem to get upset when not gendered correctly, but more "up" people might find "they" an encouraging sign that they are neither male or female in appearance and have room to grow.

I'd rather be asked.  I've never taken that question as a slight or felt outed by it.  Think about it, if the person recognizes your transness (a subconscious or minimally conscious act) would you really rather be misgendered than asked?  They already read you, either way.  In my world, there is no scenario in which I'd prefer them to get it wrong.

Stealth is what screws up your head, peeps.  Be who (TF) you are.

In Thailand we dont misgender because in adressing a person there is no gender but when we reply we denote the sex we wish to be seen. Maybe English needs a polite address word in English which does not define gender. This would eliminate alot of hard feelings when none may be intended. Also please forgive the Thais if you are misgendered, many think Sir or Madam is the same word, like the Thai language, and its alot easier to remember a shorter word, thus Sir is used wrongly.

Thinking about this question I really can't imagine of a situation where I myself would ask someone "What are your pronouns."

If someone is clearly trying but also clearly failing to look male or female, it also follows that it's clear what they're trying to do.

People like Candy Milky or Uncle Sailor Suit, on the other hand, openly and clearly broadcast the fact that they are cross-dressers who do it for kicks. They may be amused if called "she" but certainly won't be offended, so why not do so.

In the very rare case that someone's look and behaviour are so ambiguous that there really is no way to tell I'd generally just wait until I'm sure. I mean, it's possible to write a naturally flowing short story without revealing the protagonist's gender, so what's the hurry.

In my humble personal opinion asking what pronouns to use feels like just a misguided attempt to look "politically correct." I'd hate to be asked that. To my ears the question sounds like shorthand for something like:

Hey, it looks to me like you're trying to look like a girl, but you're clearly not doing it convincingly. I mean, I'd refer to you as "she" even though you're a boy because you probably might like it, but you know there's also a minuscule possibility that you put on girl clothes this morning by mistake, have a naturally weird voice, and behave like a girl because you grew up surrounded by just girls and never learnt that men walk, talk and act differently—in which case (God forbid) you just might be offended if I did use "she."
So I honestly don't know what to do.
I'm a really exemplary, politically correct person who really, truly, honest to God, cross my heart and hope to die doesn't want or dare hurt you, so please tell me what pronoun I should use in order to not make you feel bad.

I'd personally rather be misgendered—that I'd just accept as direct feedback that indicates I need to change something.

And if I really am ambiguous enough that someone can't decide what I am, I'd much prefer to simply be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

I find someone asking what my pronouns are just as off putting as out right using the wrong ones as its basically outing someone as being 'out of the ordinary.'

Im of the school that if you dont know; dont assume and dont say anything.

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Quote from: warlockmaker on January 15, 2018, 05:18:55 AMAlso please forgive the Thais if you are misgendered, many think Sir or Madam is the same word, like the Thai language, and its alot easier to remember a shorter word, thus Sir is used wrongly.

Thanks for that.  We were in a Thai restaurant the other day, and my wife thought that the manager addressed me as 'sir'.  I didn't hear it, so no harm, no foul.  But it is reassuring that, if he did say it, he might not have meant it the way an English-speaker would.

Quote from: zirconia on January 15, 2018, 07:11:46 AM

I'd personally rather be misgendered—that I'd just accept as direct feedback that indicates I need to change something.

Except that you don't need to change something.  You are free to change anything you like, but never ever let it be said that the way someone else addresses you obligates you to change.

You, and only you, have the power to define yourself.  Not everyone you meet will understand.  Some will make mistaken assumptions about your identity.  Some are struggling to reconcile your present with their memories of the past.  Some will ask you questions out of genuine concern that they meet you where you are.  Some are just jerks trying to make you feel bad.

None of these people have the power to make you less than you are, or to change anything about you...until you give it to them.  Don't.

Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 08:08:30 AM
I find someone asking what my pronouns are just as off putting as out right using the wrong ones as its basically outing someone as being 'out of the ordinary.'

Im of the school that if you dont know; dont assume and dont say anything.

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Then you're being ridiculous, honestly.  Pronouns are an essential part of day-to-day speech.  Someone who wants to get the pronouns sorted before continuing the conversation is being polite.  Someone who misgenders you is consciously or subconsciously generating dozens of assumptions about you based on your gender as they see it which will have impact on everything that follows.

Every transgender rights organization, pressed with inquiries from cisgender folk wanting to be welcoming, will state that asking what pronouns one prefers is polite and encouraged.  People are starting to do this, and somehow it pisses you off.  Get over that.  This is what increased transgender visibility and acceptance looks like. 

Quote from: zirconia on January 15, 2018, 07:11:46 AM
Thinking about this question I really can't imagine of a situation where I myself would ask someone "What are your pronouns."

If someone is clearly trying but also clearly failing to look male or female, it also follows that it's clear what they're trying to do.

People like Candy Milky or Uncle Sailor Suit, on the other hand, openly and clearly broadcast the fact that they are cross-dressers who do it for kicks. They may be amused if called "she" but certainly won't be offended, so why not do so.

In the very rare case that someone's look and behaviour are so ambiguous that there really is no way to tell I'd generally just wait until I'm sure. I mean, it's possible to write a naturally flowing short story without revealing the protagonist's gender, so what's the hurry.

In my humble personal opinion asking what pronouns to use feels like just a misguided attempt to look "politically correct." I'd hate to be asked that. To my ears the question sounds like shorthand for something like:

Hey, it looks to me like you're trying to look like a girl, but you're clearly not doing it convincingly. I mean, I'd refer to you as "she" even though you're a boy because you probably might like it, but you know there's also a minuscule possibility that you put on girl clothes this morning by mistake, have a naturally weird voice, and behave like a girl because you grew up surrounded by just girls and never learnt that men walk, talk and act differently—in which case (God forbid) you just might be offended if I did use "she."
So I honestly don't know what to do.
I'm a really exemplary, politically correct person who really, truly, honest to God, cross my heart and hope to die doesn't want or dare hurt you, so please tell me what pronoun I should use in order to not make you feel bad.

I'd personally rather be misgendered—that I'd just accept as direct feedback that indicates I need to change something.

And if I really am ambiguous enough that someone can't decide what I am, I'd much prefer to simply be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

While there are fairly clear cues whether someone is trying to present as female, remember that the same isn't really true for transmasculine people. A trans man who hasn't been on HRT long enough to grow a decent beard (which can take years) often isn't going to be easily distinguishable from a butch lesbian, especially to the straight, cis majority.

Also, there are rare situations where women can't necessarily use clothing and makeup to signal gender. I used to work in a place with a unisex uniform that banned jewelry and makeup for safety/QC reasons, for instance.

You have every right to your own preferences, of course! Just pointing out that it's not always so clear cut.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 04:29:02 PM
Then you're being ridiculous, honestly.  Pronouns are an essential part of day-to-day speech.  Someone who wants to get the pronouns sorted before continuing the conversation is being polite.  Someone who misgenders you is consciously or subconsciously generating dozens of assumptions about you based on your gender as they see it which will have impact on everything that follows.

Every transgender rights organization, pressed with inquiries from cisgender folk wanting to be welcoming, will state that asking what pronouns one prefers is polite and encouraged.  People are starting to do this, and somehow it pisses you off.  Get over that.  This is what increased transgender visibility and acceptance looks like.

You're out on your day to day business and some random walks up to you and asks POLITELY 'hello what are your pronouns? cause Im not sure.' (That to me is a little insulting.) Its slightly different when youre in an HR meeting and people are getting this sorted for you but for someone to walk up to somebody in their day to day and ASK what their pronouns are is both outing someone as trans, and or suggesting they dont pass.

Anyone else living in moderate stealth will probably agree with me.


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Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 06:31:01 PM
You're out on your day to day business and some random walks up to you and asks POLITELY 'hello what are your pronouns? cause Im not sure.' (That to me is a little insulting.) Its slightly different when youre in an HR meeting and people are getting this sorted for you but for someone to walk up to somebody in their day to day and ASK what their pronouns are is both outing someone as trans, and or suggesting they dont pass.

Anyone else living in moderate stealth will probably agree with me.


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If complete stranger walks up to me on the street and says, "Pardon me, but I was wondering which pronouns you use...", this is already a breach of etiquette on a number of standards.  Using such an example to make a case is a well-known logical fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum)

Put aside, for the moment, the ridiculous case about which there is little disagreement.  Instead, picture a conversation in your daily goings on that involves, at a bare minimum, the exchange of names.  A person who asks in this context may be puffing up to give the appearance of enlightenment to those around, but in my experience, when I have actually been asked the question, it has been in one of two specific contexts:

1)  A transgender or LGBT gathering where personal introductions often involve everybody stating their name, how they would like to be addressed (e.g. Dr. So-and-so vs. Renae), and what pronouns they prefer. 

2)  A genuine request for information out of respect.

The first is common to the point of being a standard opening in transgender meetings.  Hell, one of the teachers in our local high school who is very supportive of the Gay/Straight Alliance and LGBT folk in general, begins her first day of the school year by saying, "My name is Mary Smith (name altered).  You may call me Mrs. Smith.  My pronouns are she/her/hers."  Anyone who gets together with other transfolk to socialize or for support has almost certainly encountered this first situation.

The second occurs when a conversation needs to occur, and the person isn't 100% sure what I want because of some subconscious or minimally conscious tension in their thinking involving gender cues.  Perhaps my voice isn't quite right, or my skeletal proportions are saying "not female" even while my gender expression usually makes my preferences fairly obvious.  The person wants a little more clarity before the conversation continues.  I am happy to provide it.

I have never personally had a totally random person get up in my space and ask me the same question.  If they did, I would ask them to kindly back off, and if they did not, I would consider my defensive options, just as I would for any other creeper.  If the person from situation #2 continued with prying questions about my transitional choices, I would unkindly ask them to back off.  This just doesn't really happen in real life.

Whether it is right or wrong, we encounter people in our lives as clearly male or female most of the time.  When we don't know, we tend to get uncomfortable.  There is likely some component of evolutionary advantage to the psychology of making a male/female designation quickly and accurately as possible.  Here is how I know that the question is both important and usually not judgment prone:  Kids ask it.

In my profession, I often encounter young children with their parents.  The pace of the ER is quick and I launch in, make my introductions, and try to get down to business.  Most often, it is a 4-8 year old female who asks, "Are you a boy or a girl."  The parents usually try to shush them or rapidly change the topic.  I crouch down to eye level and say, "I'm a girl."  Sometimes that settles the matter in the child's mind.  The most common follow up from the kid is "You're really tall."  I smile and say, "Yes, I am."  It never goes beyond that.  My height (6'2") may not be the only reason the child could not gender me correctly, but it is the only one she can articulate.  There is no judgment whatsoever in the question.  The child is simply confused.  Once the matter is settled in her mind, she's usually as happen as a bug in a sugar jar.

Despite our best intentions, adults get confused sometimes too.  You say you prefer to be misgendered.  In any such case, you have been already been "clocked", or whatever other overly dramatic word you use to mean, "recognized as gender variant."  Your preference for this over an almost always honest inquiry (100% in my personal experience) only makes sense in the context of your stealth.

It can be broken down into possibilities:

1.  Was the person being respectful?  Be respectful back, and this is important:Don't judge them.

2.  Was the person prying?  I've never personally seen it, but tell them to get lost.

3.  Were you so eager to get off the subject of being transgender that you ascribed rudeness to a person who was just trying to function well with you socially?

I'll leave it there, except to add that I've never been wounded by someone asking my pronouns, and at times and in seasons I can be fairly easily wounded.  On the flip side, I know plenty of people who have been driven utterly neurotic by their stealth. 

I never said I prefer to misgendered. I said I'd rather people didnt say anything at all if they weren't sure.
Nobody likes to have their foot in their mouth, and I don't generally enjoy having to correct anyone either.

I generally dont spend a lot (any) of my time in LGBTQ circles simply because I dont let them define me. I tend to go to more gaming, horror and comic book conventions, where I mostly run into people who might have more than ONLY ONE thing in common with me.

My choice.

Maybe youve been fortunate, in that most people youve had ask were being genuinely kind and interested, but thats not the case for everyone. You prescribe advice on your persoal experiences only. (And may also be exclusive to these LGBTQ sharing meetings..? Aside from meeting with HR at work, the conversation never came up again and everyone else fell in line almost immediately barring a few honest slip ups in the first few weeks.) That having been said, Ive noticed especially among the younger 'more enlightened' crowd 'did you just assume my gender?!' or 'ask me about my pronouns!' are common place as inappropriate jokes..

Now again, where personal experiences vary, my last stay in the hospital was rather hilarious actually, since I was there for abdominal pain so strong I couldnt walk. Every new person I met immediately asked; 'Miss is there a possibility you could be pregnant?' 'Youre certain?' It wasnt until the subject of medications came up that my little secret was revealed..

I used to worry about my height also, (6'4") my aunt however is my height and it seems almost daily I see at least one other amazonian godzilla woman in my travels and I dont feel so far out of place. Lol


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Hi, rmaddy

Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
Except that you don't need to change something.  You are free to change anything you like, but never ever let it be said that the way someone else addresses you obligates you to change.

You, and only you, have the power to define yourself.  Not everyone you meet will understand.  Some will make mistaken assumptions about your identity.  Some are struggling to reconcile your present with their memories of the past.  Some will ask you questions out of genuine concern that they meet you where you are.  Some are just jerks trying to make you feel bad.

None of these people have the power to make you less than you are, or to change anything about you...until you give it to them.  Don't.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, you're right. I guess I probably just want to change for my own sake. To me it's like housecleaning—or playing an instrument. Seeing I have room for improving something gives me impetus to do so. Situations like that help me in that sense...

Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 08:10:14 PM
Despite our best intentions, adults get confused sometimes too.  You say you prefer to be misgendered.  In any such case, you have been already been "clocked", or whatever other overly dramatic word you use to mean, "recognized as gender variant."  Your preference for this over an almost always honest inquiry (100% in my personal experience) only makes sense in the context of your stealth.

It can be broken down into possibilities:

1.  Was the person being respectful?  Be respectful back, and this is important:Don't judge them.

2.  Was the person prying?  I've never personally seen it, but tell them to get lost.

3.  Were you so eager to get off the subject of being transgender that you ascribed rudeness to a person who was just trying to function well with you socially?

I'll leave it there, except to add that I've never been wounded by someone asking my pronouns, and at times and in seasons I can be fairly easily wounded.  On the flip side, I know plenty of people who have been driven utterly neurotic by their stealth.

At first I thought you were replying to Angela but since it was I who said I prefer to be misgendered I guess your last post was addressed to me as well. If what I said offended you in some way I'm sorry.

I've never been to a transgender or LGBT meeting, but completely understand that the pronoun question would be appropriate in that context. All my transactions with people take place in the context of life in general, and that was what I had in mind as I wrote earlier.

Although, as you say, I genuinely do prefer being misgendered to being asked "Which pronoun should I use?" I also mentioned that if I seem so ambiguous as to truly puzzle someone I prefer to be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?." To me the former implies that I'm not what I seem or want to be, while the latter clarifies the issue without the implication.

If I understood what you wrote correctly, you don't mind children asking you that in the emergency room. To me the same question from adults just feels kinder. In your view, how is this different?

Here, again, I'd like to do better, so if you don't mind can you let me know what it was that I said that was wrong?

Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 09:20:58 PM

My choice.

Of course.  Always. 

And, to be sure, if I offer an opinion in these forums, it is always based on my personal experience.  I'm not really clear how that statement applies to me any more than it does to you though.

Quote from: zirconia on January 15, 2018, 09:54:00 PM

At first I thought you were replying to Angela but since it was I who said I prefer to be misgendered I guess your last post was addressed to me as well. If what I said offended you in some way I'm sorry. 

The mega-post was to Angela, and you didn't offend me in any way.  Neither did she.  I was discussing an issue, not trying to tear down anyone in my community.  I would never do that.  I'm rather verbose and intellectual, but I have great love for my trans brothers and sisters.  I'm sorry if that gets lost in the rhetoric.

My response to you was the first paragraph you posted, encouraging you not to feel that if someone misgenders you, then you "need to make changes".  I hope you will always let your changes be driven from within.  Being transgender is difficult, but it isn't bad.  It is part of who you are in the deepest sense.  Own it and be proud of yourself.

Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 08:08:30 AM
I find someone asking what my pronouns are just as off putting as out right using the wrong ones as its basically outing someone as being 'out of the ordinary.'

Im of the school that if you dont know; dont assume and dont say anything.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

I agree. It would piss me off to have someone ask me either question. Under some circumstances asking is considered PC. People have "heard" asking a trans person which pronouns a trans person prefers is the PC thing to do. I've actually seen a transwoman on YouTube state that's the correct thing to do. I totally disagree but there are circumstances where I could let it slide. When someone is beginning transition and someone honestly doesn't know that persons gender It's forgivable though I still don't agree with it. But when someone is well into transition asking about pronouns or misgendering someone is unforgivable. There's no good reason for it. It doesn't matter if someone is passable or not, if you see someone in female clothes, wearing makeup, unless you are a complete imbecile, you know that you use female pronouns with that person. Asking about prefered pronouns is just another way of misgendering someone. The person is actually saying " you don't pass, I know you were AMAB and I'm going to let you know about it."  Asking a persons pronouns are simply a way to disrespect trans people  that's considered PC and ok by CIS people. If they don't know someone's gender they need to just keep their mouth shut.

I can't answer either way. Since I don't pass and likely never will I will always be 'he/him/sir/mr'

What I can speak of is how I speak with unknowns. I phrase what I say to not require a pronoun. After that, I shut up. I'm anti-social anyway and proper small talk eludes me.

How do I know an unknown? It's almost everybody. So, I likely do it even with obvious genders out of habit.

Quote from: Julia1996 on January 16, 2018, 08:08:18 AM
It would piss me off to have someone ask me either question.

Same.  Those are lose-lose options.  Use 'they', my name, or avoid referring to me directly, all together, until you get a good feel for my gender -because that is what I would do if I were in doubt about someone else.  I would try, at all cost, to avoid making them uncomfortable.

Good question!!!

I'd DEF much prefer being asked politely what pronouns I use. Without a doubt! As someone in that in-between state that'd feel like a relief to me!!! That someone cared enough to ask than just blatantly misgender me!

I never knew someone might find that offending. Though can see that such a question might be awkward. Like if I came across a person I couldn't tell their gender, it'd feel a bit awkward to ask that I guess. But from the receiving end would see that question only as polite/considerate!

Like my dentist asked 'what do you want me to call you then?' referring to my name (after I had added in the form my name beside my legal name) that made my day!

How would anyone rather be misgendered than asked politely is beyond me! As someone who absolutely cringes at being misgendered/deadnamed (ruins my day basically) I'd much much MUCH prefer being just asked!

Quote from: ainsley on January 16, 2018, 09:08:07 AM
Same.  Those are lose-lose options.  Use 'they', my name, or avoid referring to me directly, all together, until you get a good feel for my gender -because that is what I would do if I were in doubt about someone else.  I would try, at all cost, to avoid making them uncomfortable.

I think it's a bit disingenuous for the trans community to tell people having trouble using they as a singular pronoun that it isn't difficult and/or that they are not being reasonable.  Those of us who grew up before computers, spell/grammar checkers often had to take grammar as a course or component of English language studies for several years during our primary and secondary education.  The old rules are etched pretty deep into our subconscious.

I am fully committed to they/them/their anyone who asks me to, and I even practice doing it before meeting up with someone who has expressed that preference.  Nevertheless, I have difficulty (for which I always apologize if I bungle it).

Additionally, I find it hard to follow conversations where someone is using the singular they, but there isn't enough context for me to know if they are referring to one person or a group.  At least if someone uses ze or zir, I'm not left guessing about the singularity vs plurality.

Yeah, I know, I know...that's my problem.   :P

Quote from: rmaddy on January 18, 2018, 09:31:30 AM
I think it's a bit disingenuous for the trans community to tell people having trouble using they as a singular pronoun that it isn't difficult and/or that they are not being reasonable.  Those of us who grew up before computers, spell/grammar checkers often had to take grammar as a course or component of English language studies for several years during our primary and secondary education.  The old rules are etched pretty deep into our subconscious.

I am fully committed to they/them/their anyone who asks me to, and I even practice doing it before meeting up with someone who has expressed that preference.  Nevertheless, I have difficulty (for which I always apologize if I bungle it).

Additionally, I find it hard to follow conversations where someone is using the singular they, but there isn't enough context for me to know if they are referring to one person or a group.  At least if someone uses ze or zir, I'm not left guessing about the singularity vs plurality.

Yeah, I know, I know...that's my problem.   :P

Meh, you can change.  You'll just have to try, instead of stressing about the environment changing around you.  Focus.

My point wasn't to explicitly use the term 'they', either.  It was more along the lines of:  Make every attempt to avoid making the person, whose gender you cannot identify, uncomfortable. 

Quote from: rmaddy on January 18, 2018, 09:31:30 AM
...Those of us who grew up before computers, spell/grammar checkers often had to take grammar as a course or component of English language studies for several years during our primary and secondary education. ...

You can count me in that group, too, btw.  ;)  Trust me, you can change.

God bless anyone who wants to make sure they get it right before they go ahead and actually misgender me. The world needs more people like that.

Quote from: ainsley on January 18, 2018, 12:09:14 PM
Meh, you can change.  You'll just have to try, instead of stressing about the environment changing around you.  Focus.

My point wasn't to explicitly use the term 'they', either.  It was more along the lines of:  Make every attempt to avoid making the person, whose gender you cannot identify, uncomfortable. 

I agree with that being attentive, following the person's cues and doing everything you can to gender them correctly or avoid the issue for the sake of the individual is a good strategy, but then it's a bit disingenuous to be so callous to the discomfort of the other.  Someone who asks almost certainly is trying to be nice.  Maybe it's still a buzzkill, but one we can probably weather.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 18, 2018, 03:02:34 PM
... Someone who asks almost certainly is trying to be nice.  Maybe it's still a buzzkill, but one we can probably weather.

That's where i'm at with it too... if the effort appears sincere, like someone is trying, I think it's actually likely disrespectful to the person as well as the trans community to mistreat such an individual, could even breed the impression the trans community is intolerant of either/both sincere efforts or sincere mistakes.

I don't disagree that sometimes there may be a fine line between being too apologetic versus too harsh... where that line is seems to vary depending on context... i'm not saying it's good to smile with appreciation amidst being purposefully disrespected... but I'm under the impression that's not the subject of this thread.

*

The extended comments at this topic thread exhibits that this question is highly variable among our own Trans community, so you can see why a civilian outsider who means well can be confused.

Bottom line for me is intent and respect.

My father had 25 years dealing with my transsexuality, yet he could never call me Sharon and he could never refer to me in female context.  I was okay with that because he developed an intent.  And in some way it was endearing.  My before as Nickie /  male was not 100% bad.  Maybe his intent was for those good times?

On the other hand, my mom and sister came around to call me Sharon and use female references, but their intent is to demean and insult.

An aside about Thai.  I'm no linguistic expert, so correct me.  I was taught that 'Khaf' is used for reference to and from female, as in 'Sahwdee Khaf'.

Kapung Khaf.

*

In Thai the word Ka and used as a reply by females and Krap used by male. It means "thanks"  in short form for thank you and used often as a polite extra word. Sawadee is a greeting and the Thai like to add extra words. So a female asking how are you could add Sawadee Ka and male Sawadee Krap. The response would be Sabai Ka for females, and Sabai Krap for males.

Quote from: Sharon Anne McC on January 23, 2018, 11:03:31 AM
... The extended comments at this topic thread exhibits that this question is highly variable among our own Trans community, so you can see why a civilian outsider who means well can be confused. ... Bottom line for me is intent and respect.

I agree, intent and respect.

I actually learned of the whole "ask about your preferred pronouns" thing at my first gender therapy session. It was an awkward question simply because I'd never heard of it before and at the time I still had my old birth name and used male pronouns... I was barely into a transition. So it was an odd question to me completely because I'd never heard it. Today it is something I'm not surprised by it.

This is all to say that the trans community essentially taught me the whole pronoun thing... that it was an acceptable thing to ask... so in a very abstract sense, we are all essentially telling the world that is an acceptable route to take.

I realize there are many different trans communities... each of us is our own community... and then there are formal communities... and many between... so I realize it's not a one size fits all... but there is a sense that we are sort of advocating it's acceptable if intent is well meaning and there's respect.

If we lambaste someone for asking... it could really surprise such a person... their perspective could get warped. I feel for me that's just something to keep in mind for the sake of all of us regardless of what I personally prefer.

I used to care, but now I'm indifferent.

Quote from: Ashley3 on January 23, 2018, 11:15:56 PM
I actually learned of the whole "ask about your preferred pronouns" thing at my first gender therapy session. It was an awkward question simply because I'd never heard of it before and at the time I still had my old birth name and used male pronouns... I was barely into a transition. So it was an odd question to me completely because I'd never heard it. Today it is something I'm not surprised by it.

Yes... I see that in a group gender therapy session it would make it easier for a first-timer to know what everyone else likes or wants, and vice versa. And perhaps some participants may also want to change pronouns from session to session.

Quote from: Ashley3 on January 23, 2018, 11:15:56 PM
If we lambaste someone for asking... it could really surprise such a person... their perspective could get warped. I feel for me that's just something to keep in mind for the sake of all of us regardless of what I personally prefer.

I doubt whether I'd even think of lambasting anyone for saying anything, as to me it would seem rather unlikely to lead to anything positive... However, I must confess that after rereading this thread I'm more and more puzzled as to why anyone in real life would legitimately ask someone what pronouns to use. The more I think about it, the more it sounds and feels to me like just another way of saying "Hey, you're not what you're pretending to be, right? Although I'm of course not going to say it outright. So given that we both know you're a man, do you prefer to just let me call you "he," or do you want me to also play along and pretend you're a woman?"

Unless of course it's clear that the person who asks always posts the question to everyone without exception... Is that actually becoming a standard way to start a conversation these days, and I'm just behind times?

Maybe it's because I am a trans man who is 5'8" and two years on T (and therefore pass very well), but I would much rather be misgendered by a random person at McDs who just glanced up and took in the shape of my hips without taking time to look at the rest of me and said "what can I get you, m'am," then be asked my pronouns.  Why? Because I have seen plenty of cis men and women be misgendered off the cuff (my mom has huge boobs but gets misgendered thanks to her very short hair and masculine clothing) but I only see "the pronoun question" asked when someone is openly wondering if I am trans.  Since I really think of myself as simply another guy, not a trans guy, I would rather be accidentally misgendered now and then like a lot of slender and shorter men do than start wondering if everyone is constantly thinking of me as trans.  But then I pass almost 100% of the time and when I don't pass it is in quick "glanced at you" moments such as at fast food restaurants or when someone bumps me, not when I am meeting someone; therefore, I can certainly understand why other people may prefer to be asked.

I think this is one of those questions that is different for every individual, and I have found the best way to deal with it is just avoiding genders for one or two sentences until someone else who knows the person clues me into the normal pronouns of the person by how they speak to them or the person themselves talked in a way that makes it clear how they think of themselves.  Overall, I have found that 99% of the time you can learn a person's preferred pronouns without asking within five minutes of normal conversation.

Quote from: FtMitch on January 24, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
Maybe it's because I am a trans man who is 5'8" and two years on T (and therefore pass very well), but I would much rather be misgendered by a random person at McDs who just glanced up and took in the shape of my hips without taking time to look at the rest of me and said "what can I get you, m'am," then be asked my pronouns.  Why? Because I have seen plenty of cis men and women be misgendered off the cuff (my mom has huge boobs but gets misgendered thanks to her very short hair and masculine clothing) but I only see "the pronoun question" asked when someone is openly wondering if I am trans.  Since I really think of myself as simply another guy, not a trans guy, I would rather be accidentally misgendered now and then like a lot of slender and shorter men do than start wondering if everyone is constantly thinking of me as trans.  But then I pass almost 100% of the time and when I don't pass it is in quick "glanced at you" moments such as at fast food restaurants or when someone bumps me, not when I am meeting someone; therefore, I can certainly understand why other people may prefer to be asked.

I think this is one of those questions that is different for every individual, and I have found the best way to deal with it is just avoiding genders for one or two sentences until someone else who knows the person clues me into the normal pronouns of the person by how they speak to them or the person themselves talked in a way that makes it clear how they think of themselves.  Overall, I have found that 99% of the time you can learn a person's preferred pronouns without asking within five minutes of normal conversation.

Great answer!  I agree with you that I would prefer to be innocently misgendered than have someone openly wonder if I am trans. 

Quote from: FtMitch on January 24, 2018, 10:13:45 AM


Why? Because I have seen plenty of cis men and women be misgendered off the cuff (my mom has huge boobs but gets misgendered thanks to her very short hair and masculine clothing) but I only see "the pronoun question" asked when someone is openly wondering if I am trans.

And what's wrong with being trans, exactly?

Seriously dude, the person who asks you pronouns already knows you're trans and the one who misgenders you was sure you were a woman.  In either case, you're not "just another guy" in their eyes.  I get that you would rather not have to deal with either situation, but choosing the situation where you are seen as female just so no one thinks you are trans sounds bizarre to me. 

Quote from: rmaddy on January 24, 2018, 12:35:55 PM
Seriously dude, the person who asks you pronouns already knows you're trans and the one who misgenders you was sure you were a woman.  In either case, you're not "just another guy" in their eyes.  I get that you would rather not have to deal with either situation, but choosing the situation where you are seen as female just so no one thinks you are trans sounds bizarre to me.

Ah, Thank you!! Now I think I'm finally beginning to realise why asking which pronouns to use bothers me more than getting misgendered.

Although in my case, your quote above would be reversed... Yes—I'd definitely prefer a situation where a stranger in passing casually judges me to be male and addresses me as such to one where I have to submit to an overtly covert question to determine whether I really am transgender or just a guy who happens to be dressed as and move like a woman.

I believe that it's probably because to me being transgender is not a goal or way of life, or even a major part of my life. Although many of my interests are shaped by that part of me, to me they themselves are more important than where they stem from. Other than that, I eat, sleep, shop and work, and enjoy what I do enjoy just like anyone who is not transgender. In that sense the fact is just a minor part of my life, and while I of course think of it, I mostly do so in private. It's definitely not something I'm interested in showcasing to curious strangers when dealing with daily life.

If someone at a shop, on the street, or in basically any non trans-centric situation does suspect that I'm transgender, I believe that what I wear and the way I act should provide ample information regarding what pronouns to use (if they do have to be used.) Given this—unless asking everyone one meets which pronouns to use really has become the norm these days—to me the question feels at best like a way to satisfy the asker's curiosity regarding a hunch, and at worst a way to let me know I'm not fooling anyone.

Admittedly the question may actually have become the standard way to start conversations in some parts of the world—I confess that as I've not travelled abroad for a few years I'm rather unaware of the latest trends. If so, I guess I really must learn to not  be bothered by it any more than by any opening remark regarding e.g. this morning's weather. However, if that's not the case then to me personally it does feel off. After all, if I go to a garage to have my car repaired, asking what pronouns to use has nothing to do with the true purpose of my visit.

I guess I just don't feel any desire to discuss being trans with anyone who needs not know. If someone in that category figures it out, fine. I still do not want to discuss it with them.

This is probably because being trans is not something I feel conceited enough about to voluntarily broadcast it to random strangers without cause. Quite honestly, I don't feel I have any more intrinsic reason to be proud of it or discuss it than, say, my brother has of his male genitals. To me both are equally of no concern to anyone with whom we are not quite intimate.

I sincerely hope this analogy doesn't offend anyone. It just seems apt because my brother is not at all ashamed of what he has. He knows it's natural, and he'll happily walk naked where it's appropriate. However, he doesn't emphasise or expose them when going about his business. Even so, if someone interested looks closely it's possible that they may under certain circumstances be perceptible under his clothes. Should that happen, most people will just note and politely dismiss the fact as pretty irrelevant to whatever else is happening.

From reading this thread I'm quite aware that some feel different about this. Please understand that I'm not trying to convert anyone, or argue against different beliefs or ideologies. I wrote this because rmaddy's words gave me a clue to the reason I find being asked what pronouns I prefer much more repulsive than being misgendered, and I wanted to pursue it. I guess really could just delete this post now... but I do feel somewhat happy to think I solved most of the riddle, and do hope it may perhaps be of some use to someone else who may feel puzzled as well. If it does offend, please let me or the moderators know and I'm sure they or I can make it disappear.

I try to avoid pronouns unless I am sure what pronouns someone uses. I would rather be asked for my pronouns than misgendered but the agender component of me wishes that we had better non-gendered ways to refer to others...
The only place I am used to being asked for pronouns is at the local Pride Centre.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Zirconia,

A well-considered reply...how marvelous!  Question:

Why, when considering misgendering and asking pronouns do you contextually trivialize one and intensify the other.  The one who misgenders you is cast as "a stranger in passing", whereas the questioner is someone who all but outs you publicly?  Has your experience of misgendering really been this subtle, private and innocuous?  I am not even referring necessarily to whether the misgendering is intention. 

Suppose instead that you are in a meeting and the speaker asks if there are any further questions at the end.  You raise your hand, and he says, "Ah--you sir!"  All eyes pivot to you like flood lamps on a escaped prisoner.  Of course I am not saying that all misgendering is like this--although I have certainly had withering examples like this happen.  Nevertheless, you seem to be implying that misgendering is no big deal.  My transgender friends are pretty unanimous on the idea that it is, often to day-wrecker proportions.

I also acknowledge that someone asking pronouns could out you by being clueless about it.  It is just my experience that those who ask pronouns tend to be substantially less clueless than those who misgender.  YMMV.

Finally, please explain to me, if you will the angst behind not wanting to be seen as transgender by those who, strictly speaking, don't need to know.  I get it, to some extent, but does a cis-woman ever think this:  "I wish they didn't know that I am a woman.  It's none of their business."  If you intend to respond using the case of employment discrimination, I ask that you consider whether or not she really doesn't want to be recognized as a woman, or whether she just wants "the whole damn dollar."

Hi, rmaddy

Thank you for your reply. It gives me some additional food for thought.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
Zirconia,

A well-considered reply...how marvelous!  Question:

Why, when considering misgendering and asking pronouns do you contextually trivialize one and intensify the other.  The one who misgenders you is cast as "a stranger in passing", whereas the questioner is someone who all but outs you publicly? 

I wasn't consciously trying to trivialize or intensifying one or the other. My apologies if my words caused any hurt or confusion.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 01:21:48 PMHas your experience of misgendering really been this subtle, private and innocuous?  I am not even referring necessarily to whether the misgendering is intention. 

Yes... my own experience is the only one I can base my own feelings on. As I mentioned in my previous post, from reading this thread I'm quite aware that some feel different about this. Again, please understand that I'm not trying to convert anyone, or argue against different beliefs or ideologies.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
Suppose instead that you are in a meeting and the speaker asks if there are any further questions at the end.  You raise your hand, and he says, "Ah--you sir!"  All eyes pivot to you like flood lamps on a escaped prisoner.  Of course I am not saying that all misgendering is like this--although I have certainly had withering examples like this happen. 

I've not experienced anything like that, but yes it would feel bad. That said, should it happen I would have the option  to just ignore the pronoun and say what I needed to. On the other hand, if the speaker said "Yes... excuse me, which pronouns should I use?" it would break the flow of the meeting and focus everyone's attention on my reply. As I attempted to express in my (rather rambling) previous post, I really prefer to concentrate on the work at hand rather than allow the focus of attention to be diverted to the subject of my gender.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
Nevertheless, you seem to be implying that misgendering is no big deal.  My transgender friends are pretty unanimous on the idea that it is, often to day-wrecker proportions.

I wouldn't feel very good about the situation you describe either, but would still treat it as feedback to help me approach gender inconspicuousness. While both options sound unpleasant, I personally would feel better about the version that can be interpreted by the other participants as an innocent mistake—or even crass rudeness—rather than the de facto declaration that the asker suspects or is convinced that I'm neither man nor woman at least in the dictionary sense of the word. I guess that may not be the norm, but it's how I feel.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
I also acknowledge that someone asking pronouns could out you by being clueless about it.  It is just my experience that those who ask pronouns tend to be substantially less clueless than those who misgender.  YMMV.

You may be right, of course. Actually, since I've never actually been asked about pronouns, at this point all I can say for sure is how I believe I'd feel. The question I actually have been asked—"Are you a boy or a girl?"—seems to me at this point more innocuous.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
Finally, please explain to me, if you will the angst behind not wanting to be seen as transgender by those who, strictly speaking, don't need to know.  I get it, to some extent, but does a cis-woman ever think this:  "I wish they didn't know that I am a woman.  It's none of their business."  If you intend to respond using the case of employment discrimination, I ask that you consider whether or not she really doesn't want to be recognized as a woman, or whether she just wants "the whole damn dollar."

Yes, substituting a regular, off-the-shelf woman into my situation does make for an amusing comparison. I will use the work situation as you suggest. Sans discrimination issues, of course. 

Now, most of the world consists of standard issue men and women. Thus, if the hypothetical standard woman were put in my place she would be in no way remarkable. That would in turn automatically eliminate any need for reticence, because in my case a good part of it stems from the need to maintain focus.

When I interact with new people I usually do so in a work context. The situation is often hectic. Although I know people usually will get accustomed to what at first is new/different (Who? Transgender? What?), it would at least initially hinder their concentration—which is bad especially if I need to work on a project with a two or three day deadline with a team that I've never met and may possibly never see again. In such a situation getting the job done is the only thing that matters. If I'm remarkable enough that people think of me rather than the job for more than ten minutes, that is already too much.

Focus is also mostly why I've not asked anyone who knew me as a man to change the way they view treat or call me. Change is hard unless it comes of one's own volition. It's also more heartwarming that way when an old acquaintance chooses to call me "sister."

Because of the mix, it has happened on occasion that a new friend after some months hesitantly tells me some mutual acquaintance mentioned I'm male, and offers an apology for having treated me as a girl. That creates a need to know situation. The fact that I was approached and told indicates trust and shows consideration. I find it precious. At that point our relationship is also established and unlikely to change.

Anyway, that's all I can think of right now, and it really is way, way, way past my bedtime. If you want to discuss any other particulars, just let me know...

Quote from: zirconia on January 24, 2018, 06:46:29 AM
... Unless of course it's clear that the person who asks always posts the question to everyone without exception... Is that actually becoming a standard way to start a conversation these days, and I'm just behind times?

I can't say whether it's becoming a standard way to start a conversation... I just know any time I've heard of anyone with interest in knowing or asking pronouns, it's always a situation where someone really cares and wants to be ultra respectful... an I know it's not unheard of... I know the mainstream cis folks seem to know pronouns matter.

Quote from: zirconia on January 24, 2018, 06:46:29 AM
... I must confess that after rereading this thread I'm more and more puzzled as to why anyone in real life would legitimately ask someone what pronouns to use. The more I think about it, the more it sounds and feels to me like just another way of saying "Hey, you're not what you're pretending to be, right? Although I'm of course not going to say it outright. So given that we both know you're a man, do you prefer to just let me call you "he," or do you want me to also play along and pretend you're a woman?" ...

What you're describing is one particular take... it's not one I've heard of. I don't view the question as equating with that type of translation.

Quote from: FtMitch on January 24, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
... But then I pass almost 100% of the time ... I think this is one of those questions that is different for every individual, and I have found the best way to deal with it is just avoiding genders for one or two sentences until someone else who knows the person clues me into the normal pronouns of the person by how they speak to them or the person themselves talked in a way that makes it clear how they think of themselves.  Overall, I have found that 99% of the time you can learn a person's preferred pronouns without asking within five minutes of normal conversation.

What you mention there are good tips. I agree it's really a personal preference thing what someone prefers. The premise of this thread is a little challenging... we're asking ourselves about two least desired paths, what we would prefer of the following: for someone to guess and get it wrong, or for someone to kindly ask in order to get it right before speaking. Hopefully there's enough cues, passing or not, that someone just gets it. I'm finding that's largely the case.

Quote from: zirconia on January 25, 2018, 06:51:56 AM
... I'd prefer a situation where a stranger in passing casually judges me to be male and addresses me as such to one where I must submit to an overtly covert question to determine whether I really am transgender or just a guy who happens to be dressed as and move like a woman. ...

... to me the question feels at best like a way to satisfy the asker's curiosity regarding a hunch, and at worst a way to let me know I'm not fooling anyone. ...

Overtly covert? ... Is that possible? :) ... Seriously, I think I get what you're saying but I've never heard the pronoun question asked with that sort of intent. I don't think it can be a covert question because one is being clear about what they're asking. The intent I've always sensed is very positive about communicating respectfully.

Quote from: zirconia on January 25, 2018, 06:51:56 AM
... This is probably because being trans is not something I feel conceited enough about to voluntarily broadcast it to random strangers without cause. Quite honestly, I don't feel I have any more intrinsic reason to be proud of it or discuss it than, say, my brother has of his male genitals. To me both are equally of no concern to anyone with whom we are not quite intimate. ...

I see it differently... one's genitals and what pronouns one prefers are way two different things. Pronouns are used to communicate effectively to one another... generally they are not considered private information if we interact with another, even strangers.

Typically, pronouns are implicitly broadcast to the world through expression where transitioning individuals sort of make the typical clarity of the broadcast unclear. This is not to say the world isn't heading to a new norm of not assuming based on the aforemented typically clear broadcast I refer to. Anyway, asking pronouns in my book is nowhere anywhere within light years of asking someone about their genitals.

If a stranger comes out of nowhere on the street and says to me "What's ya pronouns?!" I'd likely ignore it... that's an odd approach which does not compute to me... but I don't think we're discussing that kind of obvious rudeness...

We each are interpreting this discussion in our own way... for myself, the question is do I prefer if someone cares and means well and asks pronouns vs if someone cares and means well and makes a best guess at pronouns... frankly, I don't mind either approach so long as the context feels right... but...

Admittedly, these days, I prefer someone to get the message through expression and I do get at least a little upset (internally) by misgendering but I don't usually call it out for the reasons mentioned earlier. It has so far fixed itself without my intervention. I got bent out of shape once over being misgendered... I felt it didn't matter whether I passed or not because my expression at least indicated where I was at...but that was my lamenting once I got home... even there I didn't call it out to the other person... actually I immediately fixed it when I asked "Excuse me?" after not having heard the question but also wanting to make sure I heard the misgender... upon the other's response, the gender was correct so no issues but I was a little upset.

Quote from: zirconia on January 25, 2018, 06:51:56 AM
... I sincerely hope this analogy doesn't offend anyone. ... If it does offend, please let me or the moderators know and I'm sure they or I can make it disappear.

Personally, I've seen much more risqué discussion on this forum so I'd be surprised if anyone has issues with what you're saying... I think the key is keeping respect in mind with some other boundaries (i.e..,  site TOS and rules to live by (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,2.0.html))... for me personally I think what you're saying makes sense for you... it's great you're expressing your way with this stuff... it may help someone who resonates with you. We may see things differently but I'm not debating this subject... to each his/her own.

Cheers,
Ashley

Quote from: zirconia on January 26, 2018, 12:23:53 PM


I've not experienced anything like that, but yes it would feel bad. That said, should it happen I would have the option  to just ignore the pronoun and say what I needed to.

Sure...I get that.  I take that option sometimes, particularly in my professional context when the person misgendering is under my care and already in some degree of health-related distress.  However, my understanding of the question was not "How do I respond when misgendered or asked about pronouns?", but rather "Which would I prefer?"

Quote from: zirconia on January 26, 2018, 12:23:53 PMOn the other hand, if the speaker said "Yes... excuse me, which pronouns should I use?" it would break the flow of the meeting and focus everyone's attention on my reply. As I attempted to express in my (rather rambling) previous post, I really prefer to concentrate on the work at hand rather than allow the focus of attention to be diverted to the subject of my gender.

I also get that such a question might be surprising or disarming, calling for a little mental agility.  If a speaker asked such a question, I wouldn't be offended, but I might insert an opportunity for education if my presentation were clear: 

"I appreciate the question.  Generally speaking, take your cues from the person's presentation.  If there is still doubt, it is better to ask than assume.  I use she/her/hers."

Everyone at the table learns.  I come across as knowledgeable and confident, and the speaker, who was already trying to be accommodating, is highly unlikely to take offense at the brief diversion.  After all, she/he started it.

Remember too that some folks are in process and others are perfectly content in non-binary space.  Misgendering them is careless.  Asking them is polite.  People who know this also generally know that when someone's presentation is overwhelmingly toward one side of the gender spectrum, the pronoun can be inferred.  To be clear, I'm not talking about whether someone is hard to perceive as trans, but rather the manner in which they present themselves. An "enlightened" party who sees that someone is trans and presents completely in the garb and style of either men or women--but STILL asks the question--might need a little boost to their enlightenment.  And, of course, a good speaker might recognize another option on how to address someone whose gender wasn't 100% clear.  "Yes, you (gesturing)...in the light green shirt."

Quote from: zirconia on January 26, 2018, 12:23:53 PM
Now, most of the world consists of standard issue men and women.

Yes, but we now know that the categories are a bit more blurry than we previously assumed.  My principal objection in this thread has been when folks clearly indicate, in the wording of their response, that they don't want anyone to know that they are transgender.  These respondents disproportionately say they would prefer to be misgendered than asked.  Not everyone who answers the question that way reveals such a sense of shame, but if you read back, you'd be hard pressed to miss it when it happens.

To be quite honest at this point in time if asked what I prefer my pronouns to be, I would be wondering whether the questioner is:

a) particularly polite and well-meaning

b) afraid I might accuse them of being a bigot if they got them wrong and trying to cover their ass first by asking, which just goes to show how far the pendulum has swung. Not in every way for the better if people are asking out of fear or to avoid potential legal action. I am not the type of person who'd try to get someone fired etc. for a mistake like that, but I have heard from trans people who would.

Hi, Ashley

Thank you for your comments. For some reason this question really bothered me, and while I think I've figured out most of the reasons it does, there are some details that still remain. Your comments helped me clarify a few more.

Quote from: Ashley3 on January 26, 2018, 12:51:12 PM
Overtly covert? ... Is that possible? :) ... Seriously, I think I get what you're saying but I've never heard the pronoun question asked with that sort of intent. I don't think it can be a covert question because one is being clear about what they're asking. The intent I've always sensed is very positive about communicating respectfully.

I believe the expression may have originated from the Fugs' CIA Man. It really tickled my laughter meridians when I first heard it. ^o^

I do concur that the question can also be used innocuously. For me the prime prerequisite would be that the person asking it be completely alone with me. That way there is no-one except the parties present to make anything out of it. In this case I would understand the motive for asking the question to be avoidance of using the wrong gender in public.

However, even in that situation I would prefer "Are you a boy or a girl?" While it is a matter of nuance, "What pronouns should I use" implies that the person has or will categorize me as an entity that wants to be referred to by pronouns that may or may not be congruous. In contrast, "Are you a boy or a girl" implies desire to categorize me as either male or female.

The first question is much more specific. It clearly indicates that a judgment has already been made, and implies that by giving any response (possibly apart from a merry laugh at the absurdity of the question) I am concurring to merely wanting that a particular set of pronouns be used.

The latter question implies that the asker is confused or uncertain, and wants clarification. It is a request for help to resolve the uncertainty without ulterior nuances. If I respond "I'm a girl" that is a statement of fact, not of desire or preference.

Misgendering is akin to the second question in that it is the responsibility of the misgenderer. Should I choose to correct it, that also is a statement of fact, not an admission to a preference.

In my mind this distinction is even more important when in a public situation. In my experience, the more specific the question, the more attention it attracts from anyone who hears it—and all of the attention is directed toward the replier. Thus, I personally could never use rmaddy's sample response—i.e. "I appreciate the question.  Generally speaking, take your cues from the person's presentation.  If there is still doubt, it is better to ask than assume.  I use she/her/hers."

In the situations I'm used to that would at least momentarily completely divert the flow of the meeting from the true subject at hand. As mentioned above, I would also be stating that I want the speaker to use those pronouns, which would implant and confirm the asker's hypothesis in the minds of the others present.

I live where such nuances matter. If someone asks whether my route back home will take me past the post office, the appropriate response is to say "yes" and wait, thus giving the asker an opportunity to ask me to e.g. drop a parcel en route.

Quote from: Ashley3 on January 26, 2018, 12:51:12 PM
I see it differently... one's genitals and what pronouns one prefers are way two different things. Pronouns are used to communicate effectively to one another... generally they are not considered private information if we interact with another, even strangers.

True. I guess my point wasn't clear enough—I hope my response above helps. It's what is I would reveal by responding that is private, rather than the pronouns themselves.

The example I used is very imperfect in that its visceral intensity makes the nuance hard to transcript—the best I can think of at this moment would be a shop detective asking "Would you mind letting me know what is causing the bulge where your right trouser pocket seems to be? I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I do need to know."

In conclusion, thanks for your understanding. I never expected to write this much about this subject, and upon rereading what I've posted have been somewhat worried that it may cause conflict. 

Hi, rmaddy

Thank you also for your reply.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:48:43 PM
Sure...I get that.  I take that option sometimes, particularly in my professional context when the person misgendering is under my care and already in some degree of health-related distress.  However, my understanding of the question was not "How do I respond when misgendered or asked about pronouns?", but rather "Which would I prefer?"

Yes—I guess I failed in composing the paragraph. Please allow me to me make a revision that should better express my intent. Underlined=correction and strikeout=deleted.

I've not experienced anything like that, but although I must admit yes it would feel bad, in the situation you suggest I still would still much prefer being misgendered. The reason is that if simply misgendered  That said, should it happen I would have the option  to just ignore the pronoun and say what I needed to. On the other hand, if the speaker said "Yes... excuse me, which pronouns should I use?" it would break the flow of the meeting and focus everyone's attention on my reply. As I attempted to express in my (rather rambling) previous post, I really prefer to concentrate on the work at hand rather than allow the focus of attention to be diverted to the subject of my gender.

Thus—I did mean to say that I prefer to be misgendered, and apologize for using punctuation and wording that perhaps made it seem to you I was just writing about how it made me feel.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:48:43 PMI also get that such a question might be surprising or disarming, calling for a little mental agility.  If a speaker asked such a question, I wouldn't be offended, but I might insert an opportunity for education if my presentation were clear: 

"I appreciate the question.  Generally speaking, take your cues from the person's presentation.  If there is still doubt, it is better to ask than assume.  I use she/her/hers."

Everyone at the table learns.  I come across as knowledgeable and confident, and the speaker, who was already trying to be accommodating, is highly unlikely to take offense at the brief diversion.  After all, she/he started it.

I understand what you want to say. I guess our work environments really are very different, and I probably failed to make clear my own intent and reasoning in the context of the meeting example that you suggested. Put concisely, in my case any personal or other non-work related subjects are not tolerated in a meeting. All needs to move as precisely as clockwork—there is no room for anything that doesn't contribute to getting the job done. Thus, regardless of motive, shifting the focus to myself would be considered nothing but crass self-centeredness.

Again, cultures and situations differ, and I do understand that the reaction you suggest may be unreservedly laudable in yours. If so, it makes me happy that you know the right thing to do.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:48:43 PM
Remember too that some folks are in process and others are perfectly content in non-binary space.  Misgendering them is careless.  Asking them is polite.  People who know this also generally know that when someone's presentation is overwhelmingly toward one side of the gender spectrum, the pronoun can be inferred.  To be clear, I'm not talking about whether someone is hard to perceive as trans, but rather the manner in which they present themselves. An "enlightened" party who sees that someone is trans and presents completely in the garb and style of either men or women--but STILL asks the question--might need a little boost to their enlightenment.  And, of course, a good speaker might recognize another option on how to address someone whose gender wasn't 100% clear.  "Yes, you (gesturing)...in the light green shirt."

Yes, I do understand. I agree that once all other options are exhausted, a privately made inquiry can be the best choice. And I also agree with you conclusion that even if in doubt the speaker in your example really has no reason whatsoever to ask which pronouns to use.

If I'm the only person with my hand up, the usual response in situations I'm used to is for the speaker to raise an arm in my direction and say "Yes?" If there are several, it usually is something like "Let's do this one section at a time. Please pass the mic to the xx team."

Anyway, it is clear that one choice cannot be right for every person or situation. As I've tried to express throughout, what I've written is merely an attempt to pinpoint the reason I myself prefer to be misgendered. Your hypothetical situation has helped me do so and give a concrete foundation to it.

In conclusion, wanting no-one to know I'm transgendered would be unrealistic. It would require the use of a men-in-black device that selectively erases the memories of everyone I grew up with—and I'd feel morally constrained to use such even should I have one and the desire to do so. What I definitely do want is to prevent that part of me from occupying even the most minute portion of my life that I can. In this sense, I feel that my reasoning is sound for me where I stand.

My desire to be as inconspicuous as possible where gender is concerned is is further reinforced by Kylo's option two above. It would rankle me to no end to think that someone might feel it necessary ask what pronouns to use in order just to avoid repercussions from a simple mistake. To me fear is an the enemy of clear thought and compassion. I can't even imagine wanting anyone to think I might mete out punishment or admonishment for what should really be considered standard polite conversation in 99.9% of interpersonal transactions in some languages—just because I myself happen to in one minor aspect be outside of the norm.