Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Any thoughts on how to gracefully delve into the realm of socializing with other women as a woman and not a man?  I have 41 years of male socialization to unravel and there are ways that I have learned to interact with men that I am sure won't be well received with women.  For instance men insult each other as a matter of course and all laugh about it all in good fun (so long as it really is all in good fun).  I am sure women don't do that....so what do they do?  What unspoken rules are there?  I am not presenting as a woman yet, but I think I can get started in this realm innocuously with co-workers and some acquaintances. 

I guess the flip side of that, how do women interact with MEN?  It just occurred to me that that will have to change as well.  I probably don't want to seem like just one of the guys to other men, notwithstanding however my sexual orientation will end up (currently attracted to females). 


         Thanks,
                   Julie

I think I have an advantage over some.  I pick my grandson up at school.  I have become friends with the many mothers there. 
It's a matter of looking them in the eyes with a smile on your face...... and a willingness to talk!

While you are not yet presenting as female, use the time to observe how women interact.

When passing strangers, such as on a sidewalk, in a mall, or even in a washroom, women as more likely to make eye contact and smile at each other.  It is like the secret handshake of the women's club.  Not always, but if a woman catches your eye and smiles at you, look her in the eye and smile back.  Note that this only applies when you are presenting as female!  It's creepy if you are presenting as male.  Don't make eye contact with men unless it is someone you know personally or you need to speak to them about something.

When a social group divides itself into a men's group and a women's group, sit with the women.  Just talk about whatever they talk about.  They say that women interrupt less and talk over each  other less than men, but I haven't found that so much.  For many, that is true, but some women can be severe motormouths, and the only way for anyone else to get a word in edgewise is to talk over them.  But be careful doing so, as it will be seen as a masculine trait.

In mixed company, listen when men talk, or at least pretend to (even if what they say is nonsense), but don't laugh at dirty jokes, even if they are funny.  On the other hand, if no men are present, women's humour can be just as raunchy, in which case, join in and have fun.

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 01, 2018, 09:08:54 AM
While you are not yet presenting as female, use the time to observe how women interact.

When passing strangers, such as on a sidewalk, in a mall, or even in a washroom, women as more likely to make eye contact and smile at each other.  It is like the secret handshake of the women's club.  Not always, but if a woman catches your eye and smiles at you, look her in the eye and smile back.  Note that this only applies when you are presenting as female!  It's creepy if you are presenting as male.  Don't make eye contact with men unless it is someone you know personally or you need to speak to them about something.

When a social group divides itself into a men's group and a women's group, sit with the women.  Just talk about whatever they talk about.  They say that women interrupt less and talk over each  other less than men, but I haven't found that so much.  For many, that is true, but some women can be severe motormouths, and the only way for anyone else to get a word in edgewise is to talk over them.  But be careful doing so, as it will be seen as a masculine trait.

In mixed company, listen when men talk, or at least pretend to (even if what they say is nonsense), but don't laugh at dirty jokes, even if they are funny.  On the other hand, if no men are present, women's humour can be just as raunchy, in which case, join in and have fun.

Thank you for the advice.  I for one will put it into practice as I "mature" as a woman :)

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 01, 2018, 09:08:54 AM
While you are not yet presenting as female, use the time to observe how women interact.

When passing strangers, such as on a sidewalk, in a mall, or even in a washroom, women as more likely to make eye contact and smile at each other.  It is like the secret handshake of the women's club.  Not always, but if a woman catches your eye and smiles at you, look her in the eye and smile back.  Note that this only applies when you are presenting as female!  It's creepy if you are presenting as male.

Maybe it's my smile, but I never get the impression the women think I'm creepy.  We even put together play dates for the kids to play while we have coffee.

Even women who are strangers have pleasant conversations with me, with direct eye contact.

Maybe finding one trusted women to practice could be a good start. For me a good start was always to discuss nail polish, makeup and fashion.

I had one very nice coworker (she was also the first to know at work) and we mostly chatted over communicator. This was my first dive into girl talk and very helpful. She has been a great coach to me and I am glad I picked her :-) By now they have fully accepted me, I even got read into the "corporate black list" (the list of men you do not want to be in a room alone with, very sad that it exists but it seems to be everywhere).

Now it is super easy. I also noticed that most of my cis female neighbors accepted me almost immediately into the group of girls and I did get the full download of their girl problems (who had what kind of beauty secret not even their husbands know about). Women in general are way more accepting and willing to be inclusive.

These days it is just natural. I even started a "girls only" chat group for my current work assignment :-)

Good luck! it is very rewarding...

I find this gets easier over time.  It might start as saying hi, then small talk, then more.  Have a bit of eye contact.  Don't be afraid to put your foot in your mouth.  I never make fun of anyone except myself.  I find kids, pets, and home crafts are all easy topics that open doors too.  I'm no genius at this, just tryjng to find my way like you are.  These things helped me.

Bari Jo

I gave up trying to figure out how I would have acted as a cis woman and just be natural.  You're trans woman, and therefore a woman... so speak as yourself and you're speaking as a woman.

After taking voice training and countless hours of people watching...  What I have found is 1). Harbor less self doubt and speak with people as if you don't consider their opinion of you.  If you're questioning your gender, then you're going to convey to them to do the same  2). Speak with other women as a peer, rather than an outsider or a suitor...  Men "Posture" in conversations, women are more relaxed and "engaged" in the conversation.  As part of voice training, they should introduce you to mannerisms and speech patterns typical of the female gender.  It all comes back to being comfortable and relaxed in the conversation.  3). What you say isn't nearly as important as how you deliver your thoughts.  Women can be just as raunchy as men, if not more so.  Women are not as prim and proper as you believe them to be from a man's perspective.  I have spent enough hours in the ladies' locker room at pole dancing to attest to that.  If you're engaged in the conversation, you'll see the cues to where their conversations are going.  4). You will never pass as genuine person if you censor everything you say.  Your personality comes through in your word choice and topics of conversation.  Don't hide who you are in the conversation.  You may make a few acquaintances, but you won't make any real friends.  Consistently censoring your speech to "what is and is not" feminine will come across as less than genuine and goes back to point #2.  You're not going to be relaxed or enguaged in the conversation with your mind elsewhere.

Be yourself, speak from the heart... The more you elaborate on your thoughts, and the more descriptive you are with your stories will set you apart as female.  Its not necessarily the topic, but the delivery that is key.  Men speak in short direct sentences, women will elaborate on responses and keep the conversation going...  Bottom line, be yourself and you'll be fine.  :)

Quote from: Harley Quinn on February 01, 2018, 10:33:06 AM
I gave up trying to figure out how I would have acted as a cis woman and just be natural.  You're trans woman, and therefore a woman... so speak as yourself and you're speaking as a woman.

After taking voice training and countless hours of people watching...  What I have found is 1). Harboring less self doubt and speak with people as if you don't consider their opinion of you.  If you're questioning your gender, then you're going to convey to them to do the same  2). Speak with other women as a peer, rather than an outsider or a suitor...  Men "Posture" in conversations, women are more relaxed and "engaged" in the conversation.  As part of voice training, they should introduce you to mannerisms and speech patterns typical of the female gender.  It all comes back to being comfortable and relaxed in the conversation.  3). What you say isn't nearly as important as how you deliver your thoughts.  Women can be just as raunchy as men, if not more so.  Women are not as prim and proper as you believe them to be from a man's perspective.  I have spent enough hours in the ladies' locker room at pole dancing to attest to that.  If you're engaged in the conversation, you'll see the cues to where their conversations are going.  4). You will never pass as genuine person if you censor everything you say.  Your personality comes through in your word choice and topics of conversation.  Don't hide who you are in the conversation.  You may make a few acquaintances, but you won't make any real friends.  Consistently censoring your speech to "what is and is not" feminine will come across as less than genuine and goes back to point #2.  You're not going to be relaxed or enguaged in the conversation with your mind elsewhere.

Be yourself, speak from the heart... The more you elaborate on your thoughts, and the more descriptive you are with your stories will set you apart as female.  Its not necessarily the topic, but the delivery that is key.  Men speak in short direct sentences, women will elaborate on responses and keep the conversation going...  Bottom line, be yourself and you'll be fine.  :)

This is all so true!  Especially the last part!

Thanks.  I try.  :)

I wanted to share one of those moments we enjoy on the journey through transition. I have struggled with enjoying any part of it so last night was a step forward for me. I went to a salon to order a different wig.

I had enjoyed myself last time to the salon but this time it was in the evening and was basically closed. Only the ladies who worked there were around. Some cleaning up and some doing each others hair. The atmosphere was so different than during the busy part of the day. There were a couple of women bantering about pensions and the stock market and one had some sincere questions. No one had any answers for her. I knew the answer but felt no compelling reason to speak up. I was just soaking it in because "it" was missing. The "a guy is here" feeling I used to feel when I would enter a room of women as a man. I was just soaking it in and enjoying the moment.

It was my first time since going full time a few weeks ago that I just felt part of the group with nothing out of the ordinary. It just felt good.

I've spent the 17 years leading up to hrt mostly interacting with women who mostly knew that I identified as female. In particular my lesbian acquaintances were really good on coaching me what things are real tells of masculine behavior, most of which they interpreted as the accustomed expression of privilege. Obviously mansplaining and talking over others would be high on the list of things to try to avoid.

That many years of trying while still being influenced by testosterone have made it so I found as soon as i announced I was transitioning my relationships with women quickly pivoted. I've felt accepted into the club, I don't hesitate to talk about "women's" intimate stuff - sex, relationships, hormones, body image etc ... well with anyone relatively new to me of course I'm gauging comfort and intimacy first.

Since transition I've paid attention to some of the more detailed stuff. Women make eye contact more often, face each other directly when talking -- men tend to face indirectly, projecting energy to the side of whoever they're talking to. Smiling is another big one.

I think the most important however --- and imo / imx women on average score better in this --- is just better communication. Women are more likely to listen to each other, hear what's said and empathize with problems rather than go into "fix it" mode. I don't care if this is perceived as sexist, it's been my observation. And it's not that there aren't characteristic problems in interacting with women, a tendency to passive-aggressive behaviors would be high on the list.

I'm also pretty picky about minimizing interaction with people I don't feel can communicate in healthy ways, this is just a protective thing that helps keep me mentally healthy.

I find women's intramural conversations to be more desultory and less focused than the fraternal conversations of men and therefore more fun and playful.  In groups, as a new woman, I tend to default to being more the listener than the advancer of a conversation.  Also, I'm always listening closely to the art of female conversation which helps me to improve my femme voice.  Also, I actually listen to the pitch of female voices and use that almost like a tuning fork to modulate my own pitch.

But like Harley says, the best advice is always to just be yourself.  Tell your story.

For instance I was talking with a couple of other women recently and the conversation turned to menopause.  I joked, "Well, I don't have to worry about that."  Instead of being awkward it was an ice breaker and made all parties feel more comfortable as we continued sharing our stories. As women.

I think that we are much worse than men at talking over each other, it just doesn't bother us as much. My observation anyway.

Ask questions, be engaged. We LISTEN to each other and respond. You can change direction, we all do, but if she is talking about her sister, listen, ask questions, then when she is winding down you can move on. Somebody will, we go through many topics generally. As in all such interactions, shared interests go a long way. Family, cooking, men, clothes, Twilight, Mr Darcy, hair, diet, her brother's wife's father's illness, cats as opposed to dogs, your boyfriend snoring and on and on. Men sometimes find our conversations inane, in my opinion their conversations are no better. I guess that it is just what we find interesting. No, we do not insult each other. We are not trying to be funny usually I am not sure why. We share humor in our talk, we do laugh a lot, but it is not the same thing. I laugh with my friends, my boyfriend makes me laugh. We are not all hugs and kisses though but men are more direct about it. I never realized your feet were so wide. No, you don't HAVE to make something if you don't have time, just go buy it. My boyfriend can listen to two women going at each other and never realize it. Really? They sounded like close friends.

There was a time when I no longer fit in with men, just always awkward and left out, but I was so afraid to be myself around women. Turns out the weird me that didn't fit in with men had a place where it was normal. The world is right now.

It's a level of who we are, where we are comfortable and were we see our transition going. There are no right answers.

I heard a story once about a woman who had waited to talk to a famous concert pianist after a concert. She gushed with praise about how well he played and stated how she would give her life to play as well as him. He said simply.
I did.
Then walked away.

This takes effort, how much is for us to decide. No wrong answers, just different lives lived.
You don't have to hang out with women, I have a sister that doesn't, if you want to though I feel that the best chance of that happening is to be like them. Do what they do and the wolf will become the lamb. The wolf will not be a wolf anymore though, that is the trade off. Doesn't mean you can't be a friggin fierce lamb though. 😁

I wish I could help but I just talk the way I always have. I guess it's perceived feminine like?

I get that you were trying to pass as male and joined in on typical stuff associated with this gender. If I can just say, try to seperate from this "male dominated identity" and you should get your answer. What/who are you left with?

I don't think there's anything wrong with a female being masculine. I just never was and yes that's innate. I wish sometimes I could be rougher, I envy men for their assertiveness sometimes. I can be too but I never in 27 years was preceived as a particularly masucline man's man. I do like to act and do theatre but it would be very awkward if I tried lol


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Ugh! I need to focus better, I don't think that I answered your question at all. Just ran my mouth.

Yes, if you change your interactions with women AND men will change.

Just do it, and constantly watch their reactions. In the beginning they will be conservatively optimistic, giving you the chance and keeping an eye out for male behavior. They will react when you step away from typical female behavior, that is your que to pay attention and learn. You have to be looking for it though, a slight pull back and cooling. It will happen I am sure, you just have to keep at it.

I was playing earlier but being truthful, you are the people that you hang around. Choose your friends carefully right? It is an oversimplification but that is the core of it. Be with the people that you want to be like, some things are that simple and this is one of them.

You do have to work at it though, if you act like a guy they will never let you in. Bravado is neither needed nor wanted. Most women don't curse much. Er...

Gotta go, sorry. Good luck!

Don't worry about fitting in or trying to act like a cis woman. My advice is at first to listen to the girls you're hanging out with.  You will find that if you are a good listener they will open up to you.  The problem with men is that they think they have to comment on everything.

I fell into an easy conversation with a student last night after class, mostly talking about women at the university and what departments are relatively male / female dominated. We also talked about activism in the current political climate.

It's very good for me to be simply taken for one of the girls. I live and work in a really fine community and appreciate that I have this even without the benefit of passing.

Those of us that have been full time no longer even think about "how to interact". I think the only subject that makes me uncomfortable is children and childbirth, since I have never experienced either, and never will.

That is something that gets easier with time.

Before I was full time, I would often just observe woman and how they interact, when I was full time and I started making female friends, I let them lead the conservation.

I felt a little uncomfortable the first time one of my friends brought up periods, but women do all experience this and it will be brought up at some time. I did feel a little left out, as that is something I never experienced.

Now I have a close group of female friends and we talk about everything from the weather to sex.. I am treated like one of the girls (ok to be fair most of them have no idea I was born a boy).

       In my case I have found the first thing was stopping the defensive male posturing you don't have to claim your space as you do with men this comes naturally to me growing up as the only "boy ?" I learned to switch my way of approaching people depending on the situation now the male mode has been put on the shelf even at work where it is mostly men I find myself changing my approach to a more natural feminine way but I digress be less aggressive  in your speech and mannerisms feeling are more important than bare facts dont try to dominate the conversation,women are more subtle when they want to change the topic to their own let it flow listen more than you speak especially early on and be quietly confident
    when women meet on the street, in the store or mall in passing it is eye contact and a smile  when men do this it is no eye contact and a nod whether meeting men or women do not nod women do not nod they smile I found this one of the more difficult changes keep in mind these and other giveaways and in time you will be fitting in in any situation  after all you are a woman

     bobbisue :)

When I transitioned I found myself talking to woman mostly and reduced talking to guys . Subject matter is cloths, hair, nails, shoes and boots, jewelry, family and guys.

Guys tend to talk about sports, cars, eating and women. When you they talk abut it woman it is usually about some form of sex or desire about sex. I think guys need to be the best at what they talk about. Woman tend to be more about sharing.

I ask questions about my outfit, makeup, bag, guys and such. Oh food is a good topic too. I enjoy conversations with my female friends and do not feel one upped. Listen and learn the tempo when to talk. Conversations are a two way street.

I really enjoy and look forward to my conversations with woman.

I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Quote from: Allison S on February 03, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Well said, also I just have to say the usually the more you interact with a certain crowd the more you pick up naturally the characteristics and language and you use it subconsciously 

Quote from: Allison S on February 03, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I agree that you must be yourself this is more about helping overcome the fear of doing just that by having some knowledge of the mistakes made by others and having a little more confidence to go out and be yourself having been outed just 2 months ago these experiences are fresh in my mind as someone who has been able to talk to women as friends easier than as a regular guy I still find this a challenge, for those who have not this must be very daunting,  socializing with other women is a huge part of transitioning and should not be under estimated

     bobbisue :)

  ps no offence taken or implied just a difference of perspective

Hi Julie!!!

All will be well sister!... I wanted to jump right in and test the waters of socializing with women a little ways into transition and I joined a bunch of local women's meetup groups and made a lot of very close and treasured friendships... They took me right in and being trans wasn't even a factor at all which felt great... As has been mentioned... be a good listener and jump in when you are comfortable... I noticed one aspect to interacting is that we lack all the touchstones of girlhood and young womanhood but you will do fine!,,... just be you!!!!😀

Onward we go brave sister!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

Quote from: Allison S on February 03, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

I understand why you would feel that way. Certainly being yourself is supposed to be the core of why we transition and to go through this and not be true to yourself seems ludicrous.

This is the MtF transsexual forum and my belief, why I am here, is because I want to be a woman. All of it, I always have. And this particular part of this site is all about that specifically right?

When I was a child I interacted with girls easily, it was natural in a way that interacting with boys never was. In an effort to try to be "normal" for the next 30 years that easy connection slipped away, use it or lose it I guess. Not just the different experience we have had than women but the different ways that males and females behave socially. I was so stressed as I bridged that social gap, more a fear that I would never fit in. It did all come back though. I still come here to help others to go through what I already have and that includes this social interaction. I have a friend who is autistic, she can't interact easily with women or men and has spent her life alone, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I know that there are people that prefer to live that way but I don't think that it is a high percentage of the population, there is a reason that solitary confinement in prison is considered the wort form of punishment and inhuman by many.

So with all of that we throw in one more variable, the end of being "one of the boys". Maybe it is possible to transition fully and maintain our position with the boys but I wasn't able to. For me it was a mutual parting of ways but even had I wished to stay in the club it would not have been possible. That was with guys that I had known for decades. I have had them say, "Come on Michelle, you know that you are always welcome with us." And go on with you guys treating me like I somehow have misplaced my brain with becoming a woman, no thank you. They had shut me out completely, I could hang out with them, just please could I keep my opinions to myself?

There was a few months to maybe a year that I was miserable because I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere. Then the women, who I had been afraid of messing up around, accepted me as one of them and I had to learn the stuff we are discussing in this thread.

It's not how we "should" be, but a natural conclusion, part of the end result, of being a woman. It doesn't "have" to be but it is strong current to swim against. I don't mind the effort of taking my own path but this IS my path, finally. This IS me. I would have thought that I was individual enough, unique enough not to be a caricature but if that is what I am, so be it. I have finally reached happy.

There aren't "hard and fast rules" but if you are are shy to begin with, you have less to worry about around women since they are (usually) much more conversational/will share much more in a discussion... you'll probably find it easier to socialize with them off the bat because they'll kind of "help the conversation along" far more than men do. They're more likely to help you out and volunteer useful information if you find yourself unsure of something and admit that you are. There's much less emphasis on being openly crass or openly competitive or humorous, a much higher chance of someone filling in any awkward silences, someone agreeing with you about something, or actually going into detail about how they feel about something... you'll probably find common ground quickly just in terms of wanting to feel relaxed and understood.

The only main "unspoken rule" is that unlike many men, women aren't allergic to touching each other or being in close proximity. Which if you're used to the way men treat each other, can be unnerving at first, but it's nearly always meant well. 

Kylo, it is uncanny how you always say what I would like to say if I could put the words together right. 😆 I am all, blah, blah, blah-de-blah, blah, on and on, then I read your comments and it's like, YES! That's what I meant. 😊 I always appreciate your comments.

Ohhhh! The awkward silence. Yes, before my guy friends would make fun of me about that. You are worse than my wife, can never be quiet at all. Argh! It's not quiet, it's weird! How can you stand it?! Six silent guys in a room just sitting there, thinking what I have no idea, it is physically painful for me to even watch. I don't have to talk but someone better before I freak out.

Whew! Glad I got that out, it has bothered me most of my life.

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 04, 2018, 08:00:23 AM
I understand why you would feel that way. Certainly being yourself is supposed to be the core of why we transition and to go through this and not be true to yourself seems ludicrous.

This is the MtF transsexual forum and my belief, why I am here, is because I want to be a woman. All of it, I always have. And this particular part of this site is all about that specifically right?

When I was a child I interacted with girls easily, it was natural in a way that interacting with boys never was. In an effort to try to be "normal" for the next 30 years that easy connection slipped away, use it or lose it I guess. Not just the different experience we have had than women but the different ways that males and females behave socially. I was so stressed as I bridged that social gap, more a fear that I would never fit in. It did all come back though. I still come here to help others to go through what I already have and that includes this social interaction. I have a friend who is autistic, she can't interact easily with women or men and has spent her life alone, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I know that there are people that prefer to live that way but I don't think that it is a high percentage of the population, there is a reason that solitary confinement in prison is considered the wort form of punishment and inhuman by many.

So with all of that we throw in one more variable, the end of being "one of the boys". Maybe it is possible to transition fully and maintain our position with the boys but I wasn't able to. For me it was a mutual parting of ways but even had I wished to stay in the club it would not have been possible. That was with guys that I had known for decades. I have had them say, "Come on Michelle, you know that you are always welcome with us." And go on with you guys treating me like I somehow have misplaced my brain with becoming a woman, no thank you. They had shut me out completely, I could hang out with them, just please could I keep my opinions to myself?

There was a few months to maybe a year that I was miserable because I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere. Then the women, who I had been afraid of messing up around, accepted me as one of them and I had to learn the stuff we are discussing in this thread.

It's not how we "should" be, but a natural conclusion, part of the end result, of being a woman. It doesn't "have" to be but it is strong current to swim against. I don't mind the effort of taking my own path but this IS my path, finally. This IS me. I would have thought that I was individual enough, unique enough not to be a caricature but if that is what I am, so be it. I have finally reached happy.

I don't mean anything is wrong with caricatures either! It's great entertainment and needed too. I just think some can unknownigly become one and that's not their intention. We all fumble- that's how we learn right? I've seen your posts and you really make a lot of sense. I know you reached a point that you needed to and I think that's incredible. Keep it up!

Kylo, you're right there's easeness talking with a group of females. Men, generally, are closed off in a stoic way. It's just a concept of masculinity but guys are sensitive.

I think this is a great topic! I needed to let my views out too I mean we experience both genders so we know some stuff.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

In my previous life, I always felt so closed off and alone by the veil of male pretense that is always in place in guy to guy communication... The main thrust of male communication is to convey information and establish status while female communication is more aligned with communication of feelings and connections...

Deborah Tannen's books on communication are illuminating, That's Not What I Meant! is about how men and women attempt to make themselves understood.  I really enjoyed her book on women's relationships.  Why Gender Matters by Leonard Sax has lots of interesting insights on the differences between male and female.  Women take insults quite seriously, sometimes never forgetting slights; men will playfully jab and even physically confront one another, and all will be forgotten in the aftermath.  To this day I just don't respond when men do this; I'd never understood why I couldn't shrug off insults like I should, until I discovered who I am.

My suggestions are to be a good listener, make long eye contact, smile, and "use your hands" as you talk.  Body language is important.

Do not typically provide detailed solutions to any problems stated, just listen more, and if you have them, talk about your related experiences.  Oh, did I say to listen?

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on February 04, 2018, 03:06:03 PM
My suggestions are to be a good listener, make long eye contact, smile, and "use your hands" as you talk.  Body language is important.

Do not typically provide detailed solutions to any problems stated, just listen more, and if you have them, talk about your related experiences.  Oh, did I say to listen?

Chrissy

          Oh, I am guilty of offering solutions.  As a guy the answer frequently seems so simple..."ok, lets try something else," or "we'll go to the store and buy a new one," or whatever the shortest path to some satisfactory resolution is.  It is something I have struggled with in interactions with women.  Will seeing the emotional side of things be easier on HRT?  Will estrogen cure my insanity, or at least help seeing the other side of things?

          -Julie

Quote from: transgenx on February 04, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
            Will seeing the emotional side of things be easier on HRT?  Will estrogen cure my insanity, or at least help seeing the other side of things?

          -Julie

Oh Yeah!!!!... 😀!!!

Much that is amazing awaits you on HRT.... I found the mental changes profound as did many of us here... it is an amazing wild ride of self discovery and revelations.... it is a bit of an emotional rollercoaster but to me, it is feeling life as it was supposed to be experienced... After all, don't people ride rollercoasters to feel... really alive!!!??? 😀

All will be well Julie! ...Enjoy the ride and every moment!!!

Hugs!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

Quote from: transgenx on February 01, 2018, 08:50:01 AM
Any thoughts on how to gracefully delve into the realm of socializing with other women as a woman and not a man?

Honestly it's very similar to how you would as a man, but be much more empathetic to their viewpoint. What helped me out to get in touch with other women were active social groups - just as men would. Women just tend to be much more involved emotionally and it's easy to "play along" when you're part of the group.

QuoteI have 41 years of male socialization to unravel and there are ways that I have learned to interact with men that I am sure won't be well received with women.  For instance men insult each other as a matter of course and all laugh about it all in good fun (so long as it really is all in good fun).  I am sure women don't do that....so what do they do?

It happens a lot less - at least in front of each other. A lot of women do tend to undermine each other behind each other's backs, which is much more mean. If you do this, expect to lose many friends.

QuoteWhat unspoken rules are there?  I am not presenting as a woman yet, but I think I can get started in this realm innocuously with co-workers and some acquaintances.

The face to face insulting woman-to-woman is pretty much unseen. Doing the above will also get you into trouble, but won't out you as a transwoman... but definitely as a jerk. 

QuoteI guess the flip side of that, how do women interact with MEN?  It just occurred to me that that will have to change as well.  I probably don't want to seem like just one of the guys to other men, notwithstanding however my sexual orientation will end up (currently attracted to females).

For guy friends - this goes back to more of the "guy talk" you probably experienced. Men seem to like a girl that can "stick with the guys," as in the face to face play insults. No matter what the case men do see you now as an option for dating, regardless of how slim the chance. You just need to be aware of when this happens, and really only experience will tell you.

I hope this helped!

Thanks and5678, those were some pretty insightful answers. 

Quote from: Kylo on February 04, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
They're more likely to help you out and volunteer useful information if you find yourself unsure of something and admit that you are. There's much less emphasis on being openly crass or openly competitive or humorous, a much higher chance of someone filling in any awkward silences, someone agreeing with you about something, or actually going into detail about how they feel about something... you'll probably find common ground quickly just in terms of wanting to feel relaxed and understood.

Wow. I was already doing all of this before I transitioned. Probably why I never, ever fit in as "one of the guys."  But then again I hung out with a lot of gay guys too.

I felt like its easy to talk to women. In highschool I would think of my female friends as sisters and talk to them about whats going on with them, current shows, goals/dreams, video games if they play. Also Disney movies. Who doesn't like Disney movies?

Quote from: sarah1972 on February 01, 2018, 09:28:17 AM
Maybe finding one trusted women to practice could be a good start. For me a good start was always to discuss nail polish, makeup and fashion.

If it ever happens for me, I think this is how it will start. I have a cis female co-worker that I'm simpatico with, and we've discussed her giving me a clinic on eye makeup ("mascara" is a curse word in my vocabulary).

But, truth to tell, I've never socialized well. I tend to be an outsider even among outsiders. The subject has come up with my gender therapist; it seems pretty clear that it comes from years of psychological abuse in childhood and a fundamental mistrust of others. By now, although I can compensate to some degree superficially, the core problem remains; and, at my age, it's unlikely to change.

Since coming out to myself, I've envisioned my remaining years living the life of a solitary older woman; and I'm content with that, more or less. I plan on having contacts; but friends aren't likely. When Ben Affleck's character in "The Accountant" explains that he has difficulty socializing with other people, he pauses, and in a rare moment of openness adds, "I want to," the longing in his soul goes through me like a knife. I can relate.

The thing I'll need the most work on is passing out random compliments, I should do that already with people I'm out to but still feel a titch insecure about it, since I'm just andro in appearance for now.

I have started doing that with female coworkers.  Compliment shoes, lipstick, hair etc.  They seem to like it.  Of course, I am still presenting as male...

         -Julie

Quote from: Lucy Ross on February 06, 2018, 09:11:45 PM
The thing I'll need the most work on is passing out random compliments, I should do that already with people I'm out to but still feel a titch insecure about it, since I'm just andro in appearance for now.

You know I don't pass and I never felt comfortable wearing femme attire until I was post op -- tucking the <shenis> was more dysphoric for me than just wearing feminine underwear and dressing DRAB.

Once post op I started wearing skirts more often than not and if men don't figure that out and always misgender me still, women usually actually get it.

So early on in my experience of wearing femme attire a quite stunning young woman sat next to me on the bus attired in a stylish pair of overalls. I was genuinely taken with her appearance and while knowing it wouldn't be a look I could easily pull off I was inspired to simply compliment her and ask where the outfit came from. She accepted the compliment gracefully and told me the store.

It wasn't an invented compliment and before I transitioned I never would have said a thing - would have assumed I would be read as hitting on her.

It came down to we had a shared interest and she read my intent in asking accurately.

If compliments are random, they're probably going to be read as invented, that may even be ok but really I think as soon as we truly feel ourselves to be female, we become comfortable in the femme-femme interactions and then it's not an invention or affectation, it's simply being female.

Quote from: JulieAllana on February 01, 2018, 08:50:01 AM
I guess the flip side of that, how do women interact with MEN?  It just occurred to me that that will have to change as well.  I probably don't want to seem like just one of the guys to other men, notwithstanding however my sexual orientation will end up (currently attracted to females). 

I generally don't interact with men anymore, unless I'm interested in dating them.  I made the mistake early in my transition of being nice to men. You know, just talking to them. They often took it as a sign of interest from me, and ended up asking for my number or something.  It's a little safer to interact with men in a group, such as a group of men and women talking together.

I don't know if I'm a good example of a sociable woman, because I pretty much talk about pokémon other anime shows computer science stuff and other nerdy stuff like I did before. However should you insult people ( all in good fun) well if that is something you and your friends do I would say go for it, but not with anyone else. What I'm trying to say is be yourself, ultimately you are as much woman as anyone else and therefore your way of talking is as good as any ^_^

I know this is hard though, it was hard for me as well in the beginning to not worry and think about the way i talked. So in the beginning I was a bit more quiet and listen, not so much to conform my way to talk by listening although that happens naturally anyway, but to get more relaxed and comfortable in the new setting that i was in. Then more and more I'd take part of the discussion when I feel comfortable. The best response I got was when I just stuck with "me". I guess it didn't feel forced or anything but more natural from my part.

One thing though that you will notice that infuriates me like nothing else is that men listen to other men more then they listen to woman. It happens so often in school when we have group assignments the questions are always directed to the boys. maybe it is seen as a masculine trait but I always try to butt in if the question is more suited for me, I think it is important that we don't back down and make us small  in conversations with men but rather take our equal place.

In summery You need not change how you converse, with time/practise you will feel more comfortable and it will feel natural to converse and it will be fine.

Hugs and good luck with future talk ^_^