Susan's Place Transgender Resources

To ignore the importance of gender in the context of personal identity and certainty.

Is gender actually important in real social practice?

I would say no.

This is because people either do not know you, communicate to you as the gender that they see - like people serving you tickets or strangers on the street. If they get it wrong it is an inconvenient thing, and for the sensitive (by that I mean in an unsure or unrecognised state, not sensitive as in wussy) might spark some of the identity bits off. But really, it's only a brief exchange and the other person is trying to be as intimate in as quick a way as possible using the signals given.

OR

They are people that know you, even slightly. And anyone who knows someone treats them as 'that person' rather than lumping them in a gender.

So I'd say that gender is not important or all that relevant publicly...any takers?

Since gendering is almost instantenous (proven) and people do treat women differently than men, at the conscious and automatic level, I would say that gender is indeed important.

One of the most startling things about my transition is how differently I am treated as a woman. Of course, I think stunningly attractive women get treated differently from the average woman.

I voted oui. The difference in how I'm treated since transition is astounding. I no longer get condescended to. And that covers mechanics, technical support, and my work. People assume I know what I'm talking about now. Before I had to prove I knew what I was talking about and even that wasn't enough sometimes.

Granted, the fact that I'm able-bodied, white, and professional affects the male privilege more than it would for someone disabled or of colour or of a different class in many cases, but the only thing that's changed for me is the outward presentation of gender and it's quite remarkable. Depressing too, in a way.

Dennis

Yes, for the reasons given above and for at least one reason not given, but related. My interactions with others are also influenced, if not totally guided, by the way I was socialized or how I might have managed to resocialized.

Social practice is interactive. It's not just how people perceive me (sight, smell, touch, texture, hear) but what sorts of cues I return to them, etc.

So oui et bonne chance

It is quite pervasive in current society, however I don't believe it is necessary. I'd love to live in a world in which everyone was simply treated equally as fellow humans without being gendered automatically.

y2g

I think this is probably variable too, depending on age and location.  Younger, urban people probably see less differences between "the sexes," while older, rural types probably view them as more distinct.  In some socialist or formerly socialist countries like Russia, where women were given more opportunity to work in engineering and such, I bet there's less prejudice about women's mental abilities.

Nichole, how did you decide on the spelling of your name?  My sister also has an H in there, but she's the only one I've ever known to have it.

Quote from: genovais on December 20, 2007, 11:42:20 PM

Nichole, how did you decide on the spelling of your name?  My sister also has an H in there, but she's the only one I've ever known to have it.

A long time ago I had an idea and it was that an 'h' would make a difference without a difference. *smile* Gotta keep people guessing. 

Quote from: genovais on December 20, 2007, 11:42:20 PM
I think this is probably variable too, depending on age and location.  Younger, urban people probably see less differences between "the sexes," while older, rural types  In some socialist or formerly socialist countries like Russia, where women were given more opportunity to work in engineering and such, I bet there's less prejudice about women's mental abilities.

I don't know about that. But the former Soviet countries are very traditional in terms of gender roles.

Quote from: Nero on December 21, 2007, 12:30:55 AM

Quote from: genovais on December 20, 2007, 11:42:20 PM
I think this is probably variable too, depending on age and location.  Younger, urban people probably see less differences between "the sexes," while older, rural types  In some socialist or formerly socialist countries like Russia, where women were given more opportunity to work in engineering and such, I bet there's less prejudice about women's mental abilities.

I don't know about that. But the former Soviet countries are very traditional in terms of gender roles.

Not that i've been there. But constitutional equality was not practical equality in the old USSR and it hasn't been in Russia either. Practical equality is not simply having the vote and being able to be a lawyer, doctor, member of parliament.

It's also being able to go home without being beaten or otherwise used by your husband or boyfriend. Its about not being EXPECTED to work all day and still care for the children exclusively in the evenings if the hubby/boyfriend is there too, etc. 

In many ways we have legal equality, provided of course that is in any way accepted where we live and work and move.

My personal thought is we will have fully achieved practical equality 1) when women can walk on the same streets at the same hours as males can without being afraid of doing so. 2) When women no longer are in more danger at home and with relatives and friends (statistically) than are males.

Women are taught that danger lies with the stranger, when in actually fact for women assault danger lies with the relative, friend, neighbor, date, father, uncle etc moreso than with a complete stranger.

For guys it's the opposite. They get taught that being among friends puts them more at risk for challenges. When most guys get assaulted by someone they don't know and have never met before.

I've actually been in the Soviet union four times from 1990 to 2005
Two times to moscow and St-Petersburg, one time to Minsk and once to Kiev.
I went out with an Ukrainian women who had a 15 year old child,
who lived in Kiev, and actually went to live there for two months,
men were very very paternalistic in the soviet union.

There was state imposed equality, but at the private level, the
differences between how the sexes act towards the same sex
and others is one of the largest
anywhere. MEn and women live in their own little universe here!!!

I suppose it's more that the people who treat me as a male are the people who i couldn't give a castlemaine four x for. Just couldn't give a turd. Not important, their just people in general. And people are only interesting in specific.

'It's a man's world'.  That says it all.  ;D

Quote from: Dennis on December 20, 2007, 09:03:47 PM
The difference in how I'm treated since transition is astounding. I no longer get condescended to. ... but the only thing that's changed for me is the outward presentation of gender and it's quite remarkable. Depressing too, in a way.

Ya know, I really didn't believe in this "male privilege" thing so much... until I lost it, lol.

Now I feel like the Invisible Woman. It's ALMOST amusing, since I've seen the Other Side of things too and know what's going on. Still, it's odd to suddenly be either:

a) ignored and looked-past like I'm not even there, or...
b) looked at like an annoyance not "worth it," not a person

Enjoy it Dennis! Male Privilege looks much better on you than it did on me ;)

~Kate~

Yes, it is.

Then again, this is a fine example of Hume's guillotine: there's no direct link from what is to what ought to be. There's ample evidence that gender is important socially; I haven't yet come up with good reasons why it should be.

  Nfr

Greetings Everyone,

Interesting question...I would have to say that the answer is both yes and no! Not trying to cop out here...so let me explain my point of view.

There are so many things in life that have been built up on the separation of genders, what is one of the first things you notice about someone when you meet them someplace?? Usually gender is one of the very first things we notice and that then tells us at some level how we are supposed to act towards that person. There are other things that go into this, but this conversation is about gender. There are many unwritten rules in society about what is and isn't socially acceptable for a particular gender...is this right?? No, it's not right when you live in a society that claims that everyone is equal...but that IS the way things currently are.

Now, is this right? No, it's not right in my opinion. If we are ever truly going to get to a world where people are all treated equally we need to break down the existing social structures that prevent this from happening. I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen, for those in power tend to enjoy that power and will do whatever they can to keep that power. The truth of the matter is that we aren't really as far removed from the caveman days as we would like to think. Many of these hiarchial things were vital to the survival of the clan, and to a large degree we are still following those old social structures. We are after all biological beings and to a large degree there are a lot of things that are simply hardwired into out behavior...they may have served a purpose at some point in time...but it takes a long time for those things to be rewired in the human system...

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter...while I think that no, gender shouldn't be part of the social practices, it is and most likely will be for a long time to come...

Peace and love,
Izzy

Quote from: Pica Pica on December 20, 2007, 06:22:50 PM
They are people that know you, even slightly. And anyone who knows someone treats them as 'that person' rather than lumping them in a gender.

This is not my experience. In fact, people who know me 'slightly' for years (my co-workers, for instance) have gendered ideas about me that are contrary to significant practical experience. It really makes my life quite difficult. I have to work very hard to be taken seriously about certain types of things, people think I need help when I don't want it and am annoyed by the persistant attempts, and I am expected to follow a style of communication whose rules I just don't get.

I don't think I'm paranoid or wrong in my belief that almost everyone I know sees me as 'that girl.' 'That girl' has a bunch of perculiar attributes that don't fit 'girl' very nicely and make everybody feel a bit awkward, that girl is weird or interesting depending on how conservative you are. And that's my social and professional life in a nutshell. Plus, the fact that I am female-bodied but childless and unwomanly in my behavior and dressed in men's clothing causes people to treat me as if I am ten years younger than I am, I must be a student, though I am thirty-two and my face looks it.

QuoteI voted oui. The difference in how I'm treated since transition is astounding. I no longer get condescended to. And that covers mechanics, technical support, and my work. People assume I know what I'm talking about now. Before I had to prove I knew what I was talking about and even that wasn't enough sometimes.

Being a non-masculine, young, small man I already have only the barest of male privilege. I frequently see the opposite in the way customers react to me and the lack of confidence "that type of guy" will express that you don't see when they talk to the 65 year olds or the 6 foot tall guys. It's interesting.

Gender is how the world goes round. Everybody outside of the coldest of formal exchanges reacts differently based off of gender. Which is the whole reason that people who aren't completely straight throw such a wrench into society.

Honestly, Pica dear, I feel it's a difference experienced more by the female-bodied. I've experienced people's entire demeanor and manner of speech change within but an hour of conversation with me. They don't know they're doing it. But suddenly, they're speaking with me as if I were just another guy. But upon first shaking hands, they spoke to me differently. This is annoying. I wish I could be taken at face value. There is sort of a dismissive attitude towards females.

I think it also depends of what kind of female you are a 6 foot, well I don't want to say it
to loudly... but seemingly attractive (embarassed..) women like me is treated way differently
than my 5 foot tall average look overweight best friend's wife (she would say the same).

I rarely get what I'd term a dismissive look and I'd bite their head off if they did ;-).

I even think there's more difference between how she and me are treated than between men and women in general. There are many many axis in how we deal with people which creates the overall complexity of our relationships.

By 'dismissive', I mean seen as a mere lay. A sexual object. This was how I was talked to upon being introduced.

Posted on: January 01, 2008, 11:19:37 AM

---

Also, in a sense, attractive women are treated worse than ugly women. At least in this respect.

Less attractive men and women are always treated differently than the attractive. But that's not the issue at hand.

Quote from: Keira on January 01, 2008, 10:04:42 AM

I think it also depends of what kind of female you are a 6 foot, well I don't want to say it
to loudly... but seemingly attractive (embarassed..) women like me is treated way differently
than my 5 foot tall average look overweight best friend's wife (she would say the same).

I rarely get what I'd term a dismissive look and I'd bite their head off if they did ;-).

I even think there's more difference between how she and me are treated than between men and women in general. There are many many axis in how we deal with people which creates the overall complexity of our relationships.

or maybe I just don't notice it when I see it.

I get what you mean Nero, and if I was 5 foot 6 I'd probably get that look.
But, I get more, you're out of my league look, like if they were introduced to
a victoria's secret magazine model ;-) (I'm joking, mostly ;-), but you get my drift).
My smaller female friends pretty or not, get hit on 5 times more than me.
A 6 foot women intimidates men; a good thing... Maybe  :D

Quote from: Keira on January 01, 2008, 10:52:41 AM

I get what you mean Nero, and if I was 5 foot 6 I'd probably get that look.
But, I get more, you're out of my league look, like if they were introduced to
a victoria's secret magazine model ;-) (I'm joking, mostly ;-), but you get my drift).
My smaller female friends pretty or not, get hit on 5 times more than me.
A 6 foot women intimidates men; a good thing... Maybe  :D

True. Taller women do present a challenge. Men will admire the beauty of a tall woman from afar. Men are intimidated. They like to feel like 'the protector'. I've noticed that in my romantic relationships with men. I always went for shorter, smaller men.
But being a tall woman is a good thing. Less likely to be targeted for violence. Not to mention you taller gals always have the best legs.

It seems to me that gender is ALWAYS part of the interactions with others. And if you are 'read' that complicates things further. As do the variables of height, weight, perceived intelligence or lack of it, etc, etc.

But, gender is definitely a part, a large one. We may not like that, but its there and will remain for some time, as Isabelle said.

We are conditioned to make it so, for good or ill and often it's both at the same time.

Nichole

Quote from: Nero on January 01, 2008, 09:54:47 AM
Honestly, Pica dear, I feel it's a difference experienced more by the female-bodied. I've experienced people's entire demeanor and manner of speech change within but an hour of conversation with me. They don't know they're doing it. But suddenly, they're speaking with me as if I were just another guy. But upon first shaking hands, they spoke to me differently. This is annoying. I wish I could be taken at face value. There is sort of a dismissive attitude towards females.

I've had this experience, too. I think that Pica's original post would indicate this as an instance where gender doesn't matter -- the person gets to know you for an hour and begins to see you as who you are and treat you accordingly.

That first hour is annoying, but what's intolerable is the times when it just doesn't happen at all, or happens in a really minimal way -- an hour of talk and I have moved from 'that girl' to 'that adventurous tomboy girl,' but not achieved the 'female, but not a woman,' or 'one of the guys' gender(less) status that I get from friends.

The genderless status thing can be frustrating in itself. My man-ness is low-key and minimalist, but present, while I lack woman-ness entirely (barring the physical facts of my female body). What people who see 'female, but not really a woman' are responding to is someone who is minimally woman and zero man, the opposite of my inner experience. It's more comfortable than people thinking I'm a normal woman, but it's not exactly my true self expressed and observed.

Those who see the tomboy are even more frustrating. Adventerous Tomboy Girl, as an archetype, has a positive value for essential femininity and a positive value for an outward pseudo-masculinity that does not reflect man-ness but is often an expression of the feminine as active, independant and practical. Quiet Gentle Bookish Boy and Adventerous Tomboy Girl are very dissimilar archetypes, I in fact feel more unrecognized when classified in this way than when smashingly blind people treat me as Basic Woman.

I wonder if you won't change your mind about this one as you age, Pica, 'cause of what I said about people treating me like I'm younger than I am. I expect you'll get the same thing, and probably do to some degree already. I want respect as an experienced adult, because I am one, but find it withheld from me. As a female-bodied person I am supposed to display womanhood to be an adult, and I'm incapable of that, so I'm a thirty-three year old kid and tired of it.

could well be the case. I often do find myself cast in the junior role, even when I am not the junior as such, or when I am a peer.

Quote from: Kate on December 22, 2007, 12:58:25 PM

Quote from: Dennis on December 20, 2007, 09:03:47 PM
The difference in how I'm treated since transition is astounding. I no longer get condescended to. ... but the only thing that's changed for me is the outward presentation of gender and it's quite remarkable. Depressing too, in a way.

Ya know, I really didn't believe in this "male privilege" thing so much... until I lost it, lol.

Now I feel like the Invisible Woman. It's ALMOST amusing, since I've seen the Other Side of things too and know what's going on. Still, it's odd to suddenly be either:

a) ignored and looked-past like I'm not even there, or...
b) looked at like an annoyance not "worth it," not a person

Enjoy it Dennis! Male Privilege looks much better on you than it did on me ;)

~Kate~

That's funny actually, cause it was all the reverse for me. I went from pretty much invisible (but definitely noticed...in a bad way), to considered attractive and finally 'worth their time' socially (outside scholarly events where they were forced to listen). So I'm actually more visible and more positively seen now, than I used to be.

And I answered yes to the poll...a bit too pervasive for me to ignore.