Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Someone on twitter tried to pull this out as a clobber verse against transgender acceptance.

QuoteRomans 1:26-27 Should you believe.

So I went and looked up the verse in question.

Quote21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Extra verses included so you can see the ridiculous lengths this person went to try to condemn the transgender. It's much different when you read it in the full context isn't it.

I then responded with Matthew 19:12:

QuoteFor there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their  mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, made eunuchs of  men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the  kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Which is pretty much right on the point...

and this personal comment:

QuoteMe I was born that way. Either way I dealt with my faith issues and came to the conclusion, Either God made me this way, or he allowed it to happen either way he's not gonna have a problem with my fixing it.

Please feel free to share other bible verses people try to use to condemn you for your gender identity and your responses to them.

The most important thing you can do in encounters like these is stay calm, civil, and rational. What someone else says about you says nothing about you and everything about them.

Matthew 22 36-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. That is the end all be all of my Christian belief. None of the other babble matters.

26,7 read to me as speaking to sexual preference, not gender identity and certainly those are some of the quotes from the bible that some christians use as arguments against LGB people.

I can't find any instances of people seriously using those paragraphs to address trans and those that do correctly understand the difference between preference and identity.

IAC I don't spend time arguing sexual or gender identity with believers in dog, it's been my experience that those who choose to castigate trans people.do so without care for either science or biblical truth and with cultural animus, not logic and at best a self serving version of compassion that's bound up in cissexist privilege.

Matthew 5, 29-30

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I have a number of handy citations I pull out in dealing with selective Bible quoters.  Two can play that game.  12 years of Catholic schools left a few positive marks behind in spite of everything else. :)

QuoteJohn 9:3 His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened that the works of God would be displayed in him.

Some folks seem to forget this bit.  It might be important...

Quote
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Matthew 22:37-39)

But it is interesting that some feel fit to judge others...

Quote
James 2:3-4 And if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet," have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

QuoteMatthew 7:1-29"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

I also like to reference Matthew, "The Parable of the Talents".  I used this in explaining my transition to my son, a devout Christian who now accepts me.

The discussion generally enters into the Parable like this:

QuoteGod does sometimes grant us gifts to use in our lives, if only we can recognize them. What we do with those gifts matters.

Recall the "Parable of the talents".  A man going on a journey calls his three servants together.  He entrusts 5 talents (a talent is about 80 pounds of silver, roughly 20 years wages at the time.) to one servant he sees as being very able, 2 talents to a capable servant, and one talent to the third servant.  Then, he leaves.  The servant with 5 talents invests them, and makes another 5 talents.  The servant with 2 talents invests them, and earns another 2 talents.  The third servant buries his talent, fearful of risking it.   The man returns after a long period and settles accounts with them.  The first servant returns 10 talents, the original 5 plus the investment gain, and the man praises him, granting him a high position.  The second servant returns 4 talents, the original 2 plus the gain, and the man praises and promotes him as well.  The third servant returns the original talent he buried.  The man decries his wicked and slothful ways, takes the one talent from him and gives it to the servant with the 10 talents.  "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.  And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now, when I was created, I had a family that was fairly well off, a good home, and I would develop with an intelligent and curious mind, the potential for a good education, as a white male.  I think God looked at this and thought "OK, this one has it pretty easy, and needs a special challenge to fully develop.  I think I'll give this one the soul of a woman and see what they do with that."  God caused my mother and doctor to use a new medication, DES, that made my brain ready to receive a female soul.

Now, having been granted this gift, and realizing what I have, what am I to do with it?  Shall I bury it, hiding it from the light, so at the end of my days I can only return this gift, unused and uninvested?   Or should I bring this gift into the light of day, use it to it's fullest extent, to let it grow and flourish, for the benefit of myself and those around me, so I may return this gift manyfold at the end of my days?

Now, there are those who would have me bury it, suffer in silence, for this gift makes them uncomfortable.  At The End Of Days, they may very well be cast into the outer darkness.  In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Thank you, Jesuits!  ;)

Hi, Susan, I found your topic while exploring the board. I have written several responses on Quora under my pseudonym "Casey Jones" to questions about Christianity and being transgender. Here is a link that I think many might find helpful.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-okay-to-be-Christian-and-a-transgender-person/answer/Casey-Jones-271?share=0e86fb0b&srid=pPLse

I sincerely believe that there is a ton of deliberate ignorance among the Christian community regarding what it means to be transgender. As a Christian myself, I want transgender people to know that they are loved by Jesus and can have a place in His kingdom just like anyone else.

The unhelpful Christians who run around condemning transgender people for suffering from something they don't understand are like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned in Matthew 23:4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger". Rather than befriending transgender people, understanding their struggles, and loving them as themselves (as Jesus commanded) they are taught only to condemn.

When people quote the bible, it's often to advance their own particular agenda and ignore the context of what they're quoting.

There's some other nonsense going around, where the world is supposed to be clobbered by another planet today, based on a quote from Revelations.

http://torontosun.com/news/weird/end-of-the-world-on-april-23 (http://torontosun.com/news/weird/end-of-the-world-on-april-23)

Quote from: AnneK on April 23, 2018, 09:38:58 AM
When people quote the bible, it's often to advance their own particular agenda and ignore the context of what they're quoting.

There's some other nonsense going around, where the world is supposed to be clobbered by another planet today, based on a quote from Revelations.

http://torontosun.com/news/weird/end-of-the-world-on-april-23 (http://torontosun.com/news/weird/end-of-the-world-on-april-23)

I've seen the stuff about April 23rd and it's all silly nonsense. I don't want to hijack Susan's original post by discussing it too much. I will just say that Revelation gives a list of very specific events that must occur before the end of the age and they haven't happened yet.

Galatians 3:28 should surely settle the issue of whether transgender people have a place in the Christian religion.

Quote"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

If you read the  commentary here:

http://biblehub.com/galatians/3-28.htm

That verse is specifically an admonition that Christians should be accepting of all people, regardless of their race, social status or gender.

It also wouldn't hurt to point out that the weight of scientific evidence points to transgender being a form of intersex, and that many of us are the way we are, because of a medical mishap (doctors prescribing hormones to pregnant women without appreciating that they can disrupt the process of sexual development in the unborn baby, leading to situations such as the brain failing to masculinise/becoming inappropriately masculinised).

You could also point them to this article I found:

http://www.grace.church/jesus-our-model-ministry-disabled

Before anyone blows their top at me for talking about being trans in the context of disabilities, I know that with appropriate hormone treatment and surgery, most of us can go on to lead relatively normal, fulfilling lives! Nonetheless, being trans does arguably count as a form of disability, because it's a difference that has a physical developmental basis (atypical hormone levels during prenatal development), and it requires substantial and ongoing medical intervention to rectify.

I don´t have a bible verse to quote, but...

What more proof is needed, that the soul exists, than a transgender person, who doesn´t recognize her/his body as his/her own.

Quote from: Mendi on April 26, 2018, 10:30:07 AM
I don´t have a bible verse to quote, but...

What more proof is needed, that the soul exists, than a transgender person, who doesn´t recognize her/his body as his/her own.

How does that prove there's a "soul"?  All it shows is that there are some people whose brain doesn't match their body.  IIRC, brain scans can show a difference between male and female brains and transgender people are closer to what they think they are than the body they're born with.

Quote from: AnneK on April 26, 2018, 11:45:42 AM
How does that prove there's a "soul"?  All it shows is that there are some people whose brain doesn't match their body.  IIRC, brain scans can show a difference between male and female brains and transgender people are closer to what they think they are than the body they're born with.

Mainly trying to think from a Christian perspective.

And to me, it has been clear always, that whatever I am, a soul, a brain, or someting else, I am not this body. That I´ve felt always so clearly.

Quote from: Mendi on April 26, 2018, 12:58:27 PM
Mainly trying to think from a Christian perspective.

And to me, it has been clear always, that whatever I am, a soul, a brain, or someting else, I am not this body. That I´ve felt always so clearly.

Therein lies the problem.  Believers assume that what they believe is fact and there is no other possibility.  A few years ago, someone else tried telling me that I couldn't have morals, if I wasn't Christian.  That likewise is nonsense, as morals are not limited to any religious group.  It's how someone behaves etc., that demonstrate morals, not what church or other organization they belong to.  To claim otherwise is just plain arrogance, which last I heard was a sin.

My go to verse for finally being comfortable with beginning my transition at age 65 is Galatians 3:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
If you are a believer you are truly free. Not to go out and sin your butt off, but to get rid of anything that creates a distraction in your relationship to God.
Many Christians think so little of God that they concentrate on the creation and then turn certain verses to their 'favor' in justifying themselves.
Something in my life has been no less of a defect than any other birth defect. These things happen in the world because of sin that came into the world. We are to overcome the defect. Would you deny a faulty heart valve repair, or cleft palate surgery.
My answer is something happened and Christ can fix it, All glory to God.

I remember most of the church's my Grandparents used to drag us to had the following message posted by the door..."All are Welcome"

Quote from: Susan on March 05, 2018, 06:30:01 PM
Someone on twitter tried to pull this out as a clobber verse against transgender acceptance.

So I went and looked up the verse in question.

Extra verses included so you can see the ridiculous lengths this person went to try to condemn the transgender. It's much different when you read it in the full context isn't it.

Susan,


You may also want to place that section of scripture within it's entire context. (A Lot of people will only quote verses 26-27 some will quote the part of the passage that you did also) The problem with both of those is you will lose what Paul is actually trying to get to which is an expansion of what Jesus said here.


Matthew 7

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


Paul continues his thoughts in Romans 2


You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.

Paul's point is about not judging. The question that needs to be asked is when Paul says therefore what's it there for.
And this is what it's there for
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 08, 2018, 08:22:51 PM
Paul's point is about not judging. The question that needs to be asked is when Paul says therefore what's it there for.
And this is what it's there for
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

This.

Paul is making a rhetorical argument.  Those who grab Romans 1:26-27 and think it a good justification to point their fingers at others fall into his argument and hang themselves with Romans 2:1.  This proves the folly of trying to take one verse out of context and say the Bible says whatever you want.  Oh my!

Quote from: ErinWDK on June 09, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
This.

Paul is making a rhetorical argument.  Those who grab Romans 1:26-27 and think it a good justification to point their fingers at others fall into his argument and hang themselves with Romans 2:1.  This proves the folly of trying to take one verse out of context and say the Bible says whatever you want.  Oh my!

It makes one wonder how much of the Bible they have actually read and studied. Peter himself says this about Paul's writings

2 Peter 3

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen

So now you have Peter warning against distorting Paul's writtings. And Peter even calls those who do so IGNORANT and UNSTABLE. (HMMM Could it be......????)


And then James says this


James 2


8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


James is in line with Jesus and Paul and the warnings they give are so clear and yet so often they are ignored by those who think they got it but certaintly do not act like it.

Paul said you should judge other Christians and throw them out if they are immoral.  He wrote this in the very earliest letter contained in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 5:9–13 (RSV2CE): 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Deborah on June 10, 2018, 12:56:35 PM
Paul said you should judge other Christians and throw them out if they are immoral.  He wrote this in the very earliest letter contained in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 5:9–13 (RSV2CE): 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

First let's put that within the context of the chapter.

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Paul does NOT speak to the fact of whether or not being a eunuch in and of itself is immoral. The Bible does point to the fact that being a eunuch in and of itself is morally NEUTRAL. (Nehemiah,Shadrach,Meshach,Abednego and Daniel were most likely eunuchs and you also have the Ethiopian eunuch. None of which anyone could claim they are immoral JUST because they are eunuchs.)


In fact here is the passage from Daniel


Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.
8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.
11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,


Four of them were placed under the prince or ruler of the eunuchs which would clearly indicate that they were eunuchs.


Going on since all of them were Jews and still trying to obey God even with the dietary laws, God blesses them even though they are eunuchs



12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.
15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.
16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.
17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.
19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm

Now if you're talking about eunuchs that are involved with temple prostitution,other types types of prostition etc that those eunuchs are being immoral and should be thrown out of the church would be correct.

Knowing how much of the institution deals with us does this sound familiar? Does you think maybe God may just a huge problem with how we are treated?

Matthew 23


13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Do some shut out of the kingdom by what they say?

"You can not be LGBT and be a Christian."

"You must stop being LGBT before God will save you. (But we can come as we are as gluttons, adulterers, greedy etc because we are being sanctified and changed, but that doesn't really apply to you. Besides once we made the decision we are once saved and always saved which by the way does apply to you)


All LGBT will be cast into hell or maybe we should beat the gay out of you to save you. (Do we really need to show mercy and compassion to those that we view as abominations??? You mean we are suppose to love them as ourselves?)


I don't know about you but I think that God had a real problem with those teachers because of they way they acted.
And if they are acting like that do you really think by what they show that they are actually Christians to begin with?


Jesus was so clear on this, there is no ambiguity in light of the sermon on the mount also

31 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him,[c] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.
33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

And if this is how they act and the teachers of those days taught doctrines of men and twisted the scriptures into knots wouldn't it be reasonable to draw the conclusion that the institution would also teach doctrines of men and tie the scriptures into knots also?

I am sure this will sound silly, but here goes....

I stopped with the religious debates years ago. No one ever wins. No one ever accepts the arguments, logic or feelings of others. Yet, when I was very young, I heard a preacher read from the book of Job, chapter 21. It says: "His breasts are full of milk, and his bones run full of marrow." It is a verse that teaches of the prosperity of a person and the blessings of God in his life. "His breasts are full!" But we all "know" only women have breasts, right (at least according to my own religious upbringing)? Well, I am AMAB and I have full breasts. I don't know. Maybe I am interpreting it wrong. But it seems there are so many contradictions in the Bible and so many religious types who use the Bible to prove their own biases. If we argue enough any of us can find Bible verses to prove anything we want -- Every time.

Just my two cents worth....

Matthew 5:15

"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house."

The haters are trying to silence us. Drive us back into the closet so that we will be invisible like in "the good old days."  But when we are out, loud, and proud we are shining our light upon the world so that the darkness of this world is dispelled.

I also take solace in knowing that by being out, loud, and proud we are up taking up valuable real estate in their heads.  That's kind of what Pride Month is all about.

This may seem like a silly question but since the context of Romans 1 is idol worship and those who did worship idols were turned over because of the idol worship, if they are trying to use this passage to say we were turned over because of idol worship, then for those of us who were raised in a Christian home and we believe exactly the same as them wouldn't that mean that they also are idols worshippers and the only difference between them and us is that we were turned over and they weren't? Wouldn't the logical conclusion therefore be that they are idol worshippers? ??? ??? ???

Their logic works in the opposite direction.  You are guilty of this "sin", therefore you must have been an idol worshiper.

You cannot reason with those whose view of reality is not based upon reality itself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of course not, that's what happens when you are so indoctrinated that you are not allowed to think things through.
That's what happens when the institution itself becomes very cultic and will do everything to protect itself from those things and people they are not in agreement with.


When you can point out that when they post passages from the Bible that they say a passage says something that when you you read it says nothing like that at all,you know it's bad. And it's so easy to see that it's based on an interpratation of the passage and they have never really it through the passage is actually saying. Brain washing at it's finest.  :P

Quote from: Deborah on June 10, 2018, 12:56:35 PM
Paul said you should judge other Christians and throw them out if they are immoral.  He wrote this in the very earliest letter contained in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 5:9–13 (RSV2CE): 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just thinking about this, first question should be what defines immorality? Is it the church, the rabbis, or is it defined by the law which God gave? Th reason I ask this is within Romans Paul tells us this


Romans 4


13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

John tells us this

1 John 4

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


So whuich law are they talking about? They can only be talking about the Mosaic law since most of the writers of the Bible are Jews. There fore all sexual immorality MUST be defined by the law. And in the law God gets very specific on some things like this

Leviticus 18

18 "'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

So where then where is the law about lesbians under the Mosaic law? Since there is NO DIRECT law that condemns lesbians ergo where is the transgression of the law? (I know it can be done SUBJECTIVELY under one of other the laws but it can not be done by an OBJECTIVE reading of the law)

So then what seems to come across is where there is no law -- no transgression of the law--- no sin---- no wrath.

Therefore if that staement is true and the premise of Romans 1 is God's wrath on sin amnd there is no law against lesbians how then would Paul actaully include lesbians (in and of themslves) within Romans 1?

Isaiah 56:3-5

3 ¶ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
         4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
         5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

These versus are great! I believe the dry tree it references, means for us to not feel like we don't have anything to offer, or a place in God's kingdom. If we keep the commandments, there is an place in heaven for us.

The greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart and soul. The second is to love our neighbor (all children of God).

When Christ said this he didn't make it conditional upon how we judge our neighbors hearts and actions.

I try to keep it a simple as loving God and others.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

The problem with how the church is using those passages all has to do with 3 main things. First for the most part the church bases it doctrine on Paul and filters everything else through Paul without ever dealing with what is actually said in the Old Testament. Most Christians have very little clue outside of about 35 stories, the few prophecies about Jesus and those used for dealing with dispensationalism. Second the church became anti semitic and basically got away from the Old Testament foundation due to 2 reasons one was the influence of gnosticism and the other was that the law does not apply to Christians therefore no sense in teaching what it actually says. Third was the influence of Jewish and Greek philosophy. Some of the early church fathers did filter much of their doctrine starting with Plato, Aristotle and then neoplatonism. 

I started reading some of what the Jews believe and teach on some of the stuff and it's world's apart from what the church teaches. Never mind the fact the Christianity started as a Jewish sect. It's no wonder that things are so messed up in the institution.

One problem I have noticed with those who blindly throw out a scripture is that few today have ever been taught a sin not unto death versus a sin unto death. Most have little clue and think sin is measured by gay or straight, transgender or cis.

Another area is using scripture alone for doctrine. many churches teach doctrine in accordance to what country they live in, what the nation's style is or in the case of America, they feel the Lord ordained doctrines which fit the Constitution, the amendments, what year we live in, the latest fad or what makes friends.

Very few churches use scripture alone for the foundation and authority of what they believe.

Christianity today is nowhere near what Christ ordained.

Not all Christians are bigots. Despite the fact that the pope has said some quite negative things about transgender people, earlier this year, I was contacted by someone called Natalie, who is a recent convert to Catholicism, and who wanted to interview me to help her understand what the transgender phenomenon is all about. She's also interviewed a number of other people, and assembled them all into a series she's entitled "Truth and Gender". I was trying to persuade her to make the interview public on youtube, but she seemed reluctant, and I didn't want to pressure her, since it's quite brave of her to tackle such a controversial topic at all. Still, anyone who wants to can view my interview, and the others in the series, by signing up to it at the following link.

http://www.sogoesthefuture.com/truthgender/

In the first interview, Natalie is talking with a "Non Violent Communication Coach" about her reasons for putting together the series, and what she's hoping to achieve by doing it. The second interview is with Kimberly Shappley, a fundamentalist Christian who was completely opposed to transgender people on religious grounds, until she gave birth to a child who turned out to be transgender. Now she advocates on behalf of transgender people (and sadly, is now experiencing what we often experience: hatred and rejection from people she thought were friends, and even from some of her family).

The third interview is the one I did with Natalie. It's a 60 minute interview, and wasn't religious in nature, but was instead based around what I've discovered about prenatal exposure to pharmaceutical hormones as a cause of intersex and transgender. The topics we covered include:

* how my hormone exposure has affected me;
* how I first realised I have symptoms associated with intersex conditions, and
* how I first found out about DES, and how I came to link my own condition to being prenatally exposed to synthetic female hormones.

We also talked about
* the importance of hormones in determining which sex you develop as;
* possible transgenerational effects affecting grandchildren from DES pregnancies;
* the possible role of androgenizing progestins in FTM ->-bleeped-<-;
* creating fake behaviour to cover up for having a brain that's the wrong sex for your body, and ending up turning yourself into a completely fake person;
* the importance of having the correct hormones in your system for good physical and mental health.

I also gave a quick mention to Primodos (a hormone based drug that caused thalidomide-like deformities), and HHORAGES France, an organization set up to highlight high rates of suicides and mental illness in hormone exposed children.

There are also other interviews in the series, which I've not yet seen. I'm hoping that by participating in the series, it'll help to change the often quite negative attitudes many Christians have towards transgender people.

Quote from: HughE on August 04, 2018, 10:55:07 AM
Not all Christians are bigots. Despite the fact that the pope has said some quite negative things about transgender people, earlier this year, I was contacted by someone called Natalie, who is a recent convert to Catholicism, and who wanted to interview me to help her understand what the transgender phenomenon is all about. She's also interviewed a number of other people, and assembled them all into a series she's entitled "Truth and Gender". I was trying to persuade her to make the interview public on youtube, but she seemed reluctant, and I didn't want to pressure her, since it's quite brave of her to tackle such a controversial topic at all. Still, anyone who wants to can view my interview, and the others in the series, by signing up to it at the following link.

Yes that is ture many Christians are not bigots. The problem is those that are have a tendency to be just very very slightly to the left or to the right of groups like Westboro Baptist church. And unfortunatlly they are very well funded and very vocal in their oppositon to us. Many of them are very good at using fear tactics that motivate their base. (IE because of the acceptance of LGBTs America is becoming Sodom and Gomarrah. etc,etc etc..)

They are the most difficult and stubborn people to dela with as they are so convinced that they are right and they can not be wrong about much of anything. So they have a tendency to look at science as a tool of the devil. (There by they can dismiss anything or everything they choose from scince without any real reason as to why they disagree with the science.) Most of them have been so institutionalished that they CAN NOT and will not think for themselves. The underlying current with them is they see they are losing their power and influence and they will fight it tooth and nail.

They will be around for some time yet and they will not go away quietly. But hopefully some day this too will pass.