Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been paying more attention to body language lately, since I probably should be passing at least slightly better than I do.  One thing I'm discovering is how great it feels to unapologetically take up space.  I remember being 10 or 11 and having my mother constantly nagging at me to sit up straight and keep my knees together.  A lady does not sprawl.  I finally decided to get with the program when I discovered boys, and got the impression that they wouldn't like me if I hogged space like a guy.  The result was approximately 33 years of sitting uncomfortably, as if I didn't quite deserve my place on the furniture.  I'm working at undoing that now. 

I also need to work on standing with my feet farther apart.  I instinctively do the feminine thing where you stand with your feet demurely together.  Guys do not do that.  It's also not very comfortable for me, so I'm only ever really putting my weight on one leg, which is also very feminine-looking. 

I stand with my hands in my pockets a lot now, because it keeps me from performing nervous, girly gestures like talking with my hands or reaching up to fuss at my hair.  It's funny--as a pubescent kid I learned what to do with my hands by watching adult women.  Now I'm trying to scrub those habits out, and instead I'm watching adult men.  The awkwardness is oddly familiar.

I won't even go into vocal mannerisms.  I talk exactly like my mother, which in this case is not a good thing.  Still, I may have another four decades in front of me in which to learn.

Anyway, I've been told a couple of times that I seem more confident lately.  I don't know whether the more solid, balanced way I've been carrying myself is causing that impression, or if the T is finally starting to kick in, or what.  Either way, it feels awesome.  I can't remember when I've felt happier. 

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on March 12, 2018, 12:14:15 AM
I've been paying more attention to body language lately, since I probably should be passing at least slightly better than I do.  One thing I'm discovering is how great it feels to unapologetically take up space.  I remember being 10 or 11 and having my mother constantly nagging at me to sit up straight and keep my knees together.  A lady does not sprawl.  I finally decided to get with the program when I discovered boys, and got the impression that they wouldn't like me if I hogged space like a guy.  The result was approximately 33 years of sitting uncomfortably, as if I didn't quite deserve my place on the furniture.  I'm working at undoing that now. 

I also need to work on standing with my feet farther apart.  I instinctively do the feminine thing where you stand with your feet demurely together.  Guys do not do that.  It's also not very comfortable for me, so I'm only ever really putting my weight on one leg, which is also very feminine-looking. 

I stand with my hands in my pockets a lot now, because it keeps me from performing nervous, girly gestures like talking with my hands or reaching up to fuss at my hair.  It's funny--as a pubescent kid I learned what to do with my hands by watching adult women.  Now I'm trying to scrub those habits out, and instead I'm watching adult men.  The awkwardness is oddly familiar.

I won't even go into vocal mannerisms.  I talk exactly like my mother, which in this case is not a good thing.  Still, I may have another four decades in front of me in which to learn.

Anyway, I've been told a couple of times that I seem more confident lately.  I don't know whether the more solid, balanced way I've been carrying myself is causing that impression, or if the T is finally starting to kick in, or what.  Either way, it feels awesome.  I can't remember when I've felt happier. 

Yeah, I too had my Mom constantly have to tell me to "sit with your legs together, you're a lady," whenever I went to visit her.  I'm SO glad that I can now sit the way I do when she's not around!  I naturally sprawl as well, its great to be able to do so in public or with the family! 

I naturally stand with my feet apart.  Years of working as a Paramedic teaches you that "patients can knock you over if you stand with your feet together."  Good luck with standing with your feet apart, it feels great to be able to do so!

I've always put my hands in my pockets.  That was also one thing my Mom used to get on me about whenever I was around her.  I also sometimes hook my thumbs in my beltloops.  Both are poses that men do, try that and see if it works for you.

Vocal mannerisms, I wish you the best with that.  I understand that re-learning how to vocalize is something that you have to work on every day before it becomes second nature.

Glad to hear that you're more confident!  It could be the T, or it simply could be that you're more comfortable in your skin.  Either way, congrats!

Good luck bro!  :)

Ryuichi

I had one of my male big-bosses at work pull me aside once (after I'd come out to myself and was starting to feel good about it), and ask me in all seriousness if I'd ever beaten somebody up. I thought about it once, told him that I did and that they deserved it, and he busted up at the wistful look on my face. It later occurred to me that it was a WEIRD question to be asked by my supervisor's supervisor, so later I asked him why. He said that I just "looked like it", and that I had "swagger". It was a good conversation LMAO.

Nobody ever explicitly ordered me to sit with my legs closed (unless I was wearing a skirt, which was rare), but there was still always that social pressure to be lady-like, especially if you wanted to be visible to men, so I did it. Eventually it became a stability thing? Like sitting with my knees together was very uncomfortable for some reason so I crossed my legs to feel more "stable" when I sat. I quickly realized recently that sitting with my legs apart gave me the same feeling, and if I wanted to cross my legs I could do it the man way.

Body language is a fascinating topic. Hands in pockets definitely does help, especially where swaying hips while walking is concerned. It helps with leading with your feet and shoulders like men do rather than hips and knees like women tend to do. I gesticulate like a mutha, but it's NOT a feminine thing at all, because it's a whole-body/arm thing. I take up space with it haha. Maybe I'm a little Italian.

I had a few people say things like that to me as well. A sporty dude at uni once said to me he noticed me walking up the road back to the halls and commented on the way I was walking and looking around me, although he described it like "you look like you were off to kill someone". That wasn't confidence as such, that was just me being purposeful and alert. But I know what he meant. When I was going from A to B by myself I had a shark-walk and a glare. This was probably from my younger days when I used to run the gauntlet of the neighborhood kids who did want to beat me up. Walking around with that slightly exaggerated swagger and death glare would keep them off me, and make other people mind their own business.

I have not had to beat anyone up, but I would defend myself or one of my friends in a second. I did have to defend myself a couple of times, and not a stranger to violent situations unfortunately. I think they can see that in your eyes, and how you hold yourself.

Huh, interesting.

I've long had this vibe about me that a (straight cis dude) friend of mine called 'bravado'. I didn't really know what that meant outside of it just being a fun persona to put on in certain social situations, but since identifying as FtM it feels way natural now. The dictionary definition isn't too kind about it, but he's always meant it in the same sort of way I had: that is, an outgoing, loud and proud sort of masculine energy that has fun with itself and DEFINITELY doesn't require putting anyone else down. I wonder if that's what my boss noticed.

It's sexist double-standard bullcrap for sure, but I'm really enjoying how people are receiving the "attitude" I'm projecting now that I'm completely defeminized. Before, it seemed the acceptable fem spectrum just ended in nondescript "b*tch", but for masc people and men there's a lot more leeway for expressing different kinds of toughness that others can see as healthy and valuable.

Not that it really hinders a woman that much in life, to be assertive - or even considered a "bitch" in the current climate (the mainstream likes the idea of "badass" women quite a bit, at least in fantasy...) - but for a man not to be able to stand up for or have some confidence in himself, it's considered pathetic by most everyone, women included.

Even the feminists don't seem to want a man who wouldn't step up to protect them in a fight, lol.

But anyway, one of the best tells of real confidence is the lack of excessive movement. Watch any alpha male or female social animal, and they aren't the ones running around trying to be tough, as they already are tough. The try-hards are the ones who aren't at the top, but who desperately want to be. Confidence manifests in relaxed attitude and postures, a lack of nervous fumbling around and doing daft things for attention. It's true some will be "faking it till they make it" but on the whole you can see through a fake act easy enough. That's why I wouldn't advise trying too hard to seem confident and manly, but instead just getting confident for real with what feels right and with real environments and around more people. Anyone who already knows what's coming next will be automatically more relaxed in the body language and in the brain than someone who's a noob at something. The absolute best way to gain general confidence with all situations imo is through socializing and active hobbies. If there's something you're scared of, confront that first, get it out of the way and get the confidence from conquering it. There is no substitute for this.

Quote from: Kylo on March 12, 2018, 04:54:26 PM
*snip*

But anyway, one of the best tells of real confidence is the lack of excessive movement. Watch any alpha male or female social animal, and they aren't the ones running around trying to be tough, as they already are tough. The try-hards are the ones who aren't at the top, but who desperately want to be. Confidence manifests in relaxed attitude and postures, a lack of nervous fumbling around and doing daft things for attention. It's true some will be "faking it till they make it" but on the whole you can see through a fake act easy enough. That's why I wouldn't advise trying too hard to seem confident and manly, but instead just getting confident for real with what feels right and with real environments and around more people. Anyone who already knows what's coming next will be automatically more relaxed in the body language and in the brain than someone who's a noob at something. The absolute best way to gain general confidence with all situations imo is through socializing and active hobbies. If there's something you're scared of, confront that first, get it out of the way and get the confidence from conquering it. There is no substitute for this.

⇧THIS! 

I've always been told that I "exude comfidence" even when I was pretending to be female.  Before I even knew what a "transexual" (the derogatory term) was, I was called one a few times because of the way I carry myself, despite wearing female clothes at those times.  I don't TRY to be confidant, I guess I just am.

However, the more you "pretend" to be confident, the more it'll eventually become second nature to you.  Whenever you go anywhere, walk like you own the damned place.  Stick out your chest.  Hold your head high, pretend you're a god and that the people there are here to worship you when you walk. 

Believe it our not, it IS possible to walk that way, yet still be a kind, caring person.  Just keep at it.  Its a tightrope walk, but very possible.

Ryuichi


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Body language is everything. That is how other people see you.

I often hear that I'm so calm and steady like a rock. Even when I'm nervous, I'm nervous on the inside. Nothing shows.

I have also often heared that I am cool.

What is cool? I don't try to be that. I just am myself.


Tony

I talk with my hands which if you watch a lot of alpha male politicians do too. I have tourettes arm movements. Even before I realized I was actually trans I used to sit with one ankle on my thigh. Sometimes I cross my legs. Friends have told me my gestures are already masculine.

For the trans-person, it is my opinion that "body language" at times can do more to help one pass that even appearance.

As I have mentioned in some of my other postings on other threads, I like to people watch... I love going to a mall, an airport, a restaurant, a ride on the bus, or even on a busy street.   There are very noticeable differences in the that ways that men and women, walk, sit, eat, talk, move their bodies, etc. 
Any trans-person can help themselves considerably while on their transition journey by observing closely and to note things that can be done to improve their "passing" success.   
Obviously dressing and grooming their best possible according to the desired gender identification is essential.

Lastly, always display self-confidence, self-assurance.... and a nice smile.... a smile is very disarming to those that see you...  many times observers don't get past seeing a beautiful smile !!!!
Danielle

Also, can we leave out the alpha/beta male crap out of this conversation? It's completely junk science that makes no sense when applied to wolves, let alone humans.

The way some people talk about it perhaps. If you've been involved with scientific biology though there are differences observable in the behaviors of high-ranking social animals and humans. Plenty of evidence on the subject. What you're probably referring to is the recent appropriation of the term "alpha", "beta" etc. it among popular and not-so-popular social commentators. I'm not going to totally dispense with it because there are actual observable patterns of behavior in people depending on where they fit in a social hierarchy that does affect their body language, and can be found in psychology observations as well. Not going to pretend this doesn't exist.

However I acknowledge some people out there treat the idea with undeserved importance or reverence, or claim that it literally defines people. Obviously it doesn't. 

As for wolves, I can fetch you plenty of science papers detailing the observed body language and behavior of dominant versus submissive animals within the group and how the hierarchy of a wolf pack forms, maintains and dissipates under different environmental conditions. Because I've studied it. Unless you did too and happened to make a completely different set of field observations I'm going to assume you just don't like the idea and are wanting to dismiss it. A hierarchy always forms within a group of 2-3 or more wolves, either in the wild or in captivity, and in order to establish this pecking order, the behaviors of these animals alter according to their rank in it. Unless you have evidence that this doesn't happen, I'd appreciate we didn't call established biological facts "junk science". Spotting an article or two on i09 doesn't really count.

The "alpha wolf" concept - i.e. one wolf ruling over the entire pack is BS. Wolf packs are dynamic, there are family groups and alpha pairs or individuals within those family groups. Any particularly dominant individuals can be termed an alpha, and wolf groups can grow or shrink in size according to harshness of conditions or breeding condition. Someone claiming there is no alpha in a wolf pack is just as incorrect as someone saying there is only one. But there are always dominant individuals and those are what we term alphas in the context of a wolf pack.

You can also note that I said alpha males AND alpha females. They exist as well. 

Nobody needs to be a rocket scientist to see how profoundly low social status affects the confidence, behaviors and attitude of human beings, which are also social animals. It doesn't define who they are, but to say it's nonsense and doesn't exist is ludicrous. It's all over these boards for starters, how the "low" status of the trans person in most societies impacts their lives, and how we all tend to strive to either shed that pariah status or overcome it. And we all know how much the average person desires the trappings of high social status in an attempt to improve their lives and happiness. We know how being on the bottom of the heap for a long time can lead to depression and ill health and death. Nobody wants to be there. So if it's all nonsense, I wonder why so many people try so hard to earn a "respectable" wage? To be attractive to others? Why dick size is important to people? Personal vanity? Or because it's part of the social status game and being higher on the rungs bring its own rewards? You tell me.     

I'm not saying that there are no such things as dominant and submissive social behaviors. But the "alpha" and "beta" wolf concept is outdated, and humans aren't dogs anyways. Let's be specific here instead of co-opting what's essentially become PUA terminology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

If you're a field scientist, I'm a little confused as to why you feel that "alpha" and "dominant" are interchangeable terms when they aren't?

Speaking of inappropriate conflating of terms, confidence =/= dominance.

Can we please stop giving credence to these basic tenets of toxic masculinity? They are not at all helpful.

Because alpha is a scientific term frequently used in field studies to denote highest social ranking animal(s). Alpha is interchangeable with dominant where used because alpha isn't going to be subordinate to other individuals. There may be "sub-alpha" animals who are dominant over other members of a group as well, where dominant may not equal alpha of course but the alpha is by definition of the highest rank, therefore dominant.

Oh, are we going to get into semantics and toxic masculinity here are we. What on earth for when you know just fine my posts aren't here to teach anyone to act like a jerk but to develop their confidence.

You really don't want to get me started conflating the notion of being confident or masculine with the so-called "toxic masculinity" dogma. Just because a bunch of people you don't like the ideas of have started using the term "alpha" and "dominant" does not mean I am going to roll over and swallow that scientific/psychologic facts now belong to this "toxic masculinity" screed. I am not interested in blacklisting or censoring factual topics because someone somewhere might have "tainted" them for you. As a trained biologist I find that kind of thinking highly "problematic".

You know what is helpful? The unsugared truth. The facts. Which certain progressives in academia lately seem to be rather afraid of. I can only imagine a person is afraid of truth regarding these things because they have agendas quite opposed to it, and the only way they can push them is to defame certain scientific findings. "Inconvenient truths." 

Kylo, what do you think would be dominant male/ submissive male body language? I would think attitude had more to do with it.

I could write off a list, but anyone interested in the subject rather than disproving me could find one with a quick Google search, and then go put that list to the test by observing situations in real life.

The majority of human communication is unspoken body language, whether we notice it or not, and a lot of the direct vocal communication can have unspoken subtext as we know.   

In the beginning of my transition (soon after I came out) I also paid close attention to my body language and tried to make it more typically male. Nowadays I don't bother so much with it. Some things I managed to change, other things just never quite got into my head. Mostly I changed the way I walk, to more so swing with my shoulders instead of swinging with my hips, and take longer steps.

I usually stand with my feet at about hip-width distance, cause that's how I learned to stand when I was practicing karate, during my early teens, and it stuck with me. It also helps me keep my balance a bit better, and is as far as I know, considered masculine. Sometimes I also put my weight on one leg, but I've noticed cis guys do that a lot too, especially if they're standing still for longer times, like in a wating line or something. So I think that's not a very gendered thing, from what I've seen. However it does seem to give the impression of being impatient or bored, and younger people tend to do it more than those that are older.

As for sitting, I usually sit with my legs crossed, which is often considered "feminine" but I know that men do it just as much, so I say whatever. I quite often also sit with my knees close together which I hate that I do, but it's very practical when I want to keep my phone, gloves or other stuff on my lap. Sometimes I sit with my legs wider apart, but not as often. Oh, and with just my feet crossed and legs more stretched out in front of me, I often sit.

For me, it's never been my thing to talk with my hands. I always keep them still in my lap or on a table (if sitting), in pockets or just down the sides of my body (if standing). When I grew up as a kid I thought it looked weird when others gesticulated while talking, like.. what are they doing that for? -I asked myself, confused about it. I still wonder the same thing.

My voice has always been rather monotone but in my teens I changed it to sound "more feminine" but that never came naturally for me, so by the time I transitioned, switching back to my more masculine speaking pattern wasn't too difficult for me. Now, I think, as far as I can conclude, that I sound like just about any cis guy, both in terms of pitch and tone. And my mother says I sound a lot like my father these days.

Other things I've been nitpicking about in terms of my own mannerisms have been stuff like how I hold grocery bags, that I point with one finger instead of my whole hand, that I tend to want to keep my arms and legs close to body instead of spread out, how I hold cutlery while eating, how I put on and take off my glasses, how I stroke my long hair away from my face, how I put on and take off any kind of clothing, that I hold things with my fingers spread instead of close together, and how annoying it's been for me to learn that all of that and much, much more is more or less gendered... at some point I just had to stop and learn to be fine with my androgynous body language.

I've been on T for about 5 years, and in transition for 9 years, so I've gotten to a point where I'm mostly not thinking much about how male I appear to others or how well I pass cause I know I pass at this point and have for several years now. That is very nice for me and makes me feel much more at ease and relaxed in social settings, cause I never worry about being misgendered anymore. However, sometimes I worry about coming across as "unmanly" or "feminine for a guy" but maybe that's less of an issue, somehow. I don't know. Can always just say it's because I'm gay, or something, cause that wouldn't be untrue.

As for the alpha/beta stuff, I don't really care. I only think in terms of masculine/feminine/androgynous and male/female. As I'm passing, I don't worry that I'd come off as female no matter how I move my body, so my only worries are how masculine or feminine a guy I come off as. And also how shy/confident, and even also how approachable vs. intimidating. There are many aspects to consider in how an individual is/can be perceived based on their body language. And I think people's stereotypes has more to do with that than anything else, really. But then I also don't want to get off on too much of a tangent about that.

Quote from: Kylo on March 13, 2018, 08:43:15 PM
Because alpha is a scientific term frequently used in field studies to denote highest social ranking animal(s). Alpha is interchangeable with dominant where used because alpha isn't going to be subordinate to other individuals. There may be "sub-alpha" animals who are dominant over other members of a group as well, where dominant may not equal alpha of course but the alpha is by definition of the highest rank, therefore dominant.

Oh, are we going to get into semantics and toxic masculinity here are we. What on earth for when you know just fine my posts aren't here to teach anyone to act like a jerk but to develop their confidence.

You really don't want to get me started conflating the notion of being confident or masculine with the so-called "toxic masculinity" dogma. Just because a bunch of people you don't like the ideas of have started using the term "alpha" and "dominant" does not mean I am going to roll over and swallow that scientific/psychologic facts now belong to this "toxic masculinity" screed. I am not interested in blacklisting or censoring factual topics because someone somewhere might have "tainted" them for you. As a trained biologist I find that kind of thinking highly "problematic".

You know what is helpful? The unsugared truth. The facts. Which certain progressives in academia lately seem to be rather afraid of. I can only imagine a person is afraid of truth regarding these things because they have agendas quite opposed to it, and the only way they can push them is to defame certain scientific findings. "Inconvenient truths."

I seem to have hit close to home.

Again, I posit: how do you conflate confidence with dominance?

I'm really not anti-science, or even anti-determinism. But a lot of the above seems to be coming from a place of scientism and emotion rather than... well, science. Especially since you can't even be bothered to defend yourself. I know a quite a few people in STEM fields; trust me, these are not bogus concerns.

I was just wondering....

Whatever happened to giving @The Flying Lemur body language advice?  Or did people forget that's what this thread was SUPPOSED to be about?

Again, I was just wondering.

Ryuichi

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Quote from: Ryuichi13 on March 15, 2018, 06:28:49 AM
I was just wondering....

Whatever happened to giving @The Flying Lemur body language advice?  Or did people forget that's what this thread was SUPPOSED to be about?

Again, I was just wondering.

Ryuichi

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Good question! I directed most of my previous post to The Flying Lemur, but then if I was actually helpful or not I don't know. I tend to rant a bit ;)

Quote from: BT04 on March 14, 2018, 11:57:57 PM
Again, I posit: how do you conflate confidence with dominance?

Individuals at the top of a social hierarchy display what we recognize as higher frequencies of confident behaviors. Do I even need to go into this or do I have to spell out everything everyone in here already knows? that the guy who sits in the corner looking nervously around him but avoiding eye contact with others etc, displaying all sorts of submissive and nervous behaviors, is typically not displaying the body language of those in more dominant roles - that of leader of a group, manager, boss, teacher, statesman, C.O., CEO etc., etc.? And we know in those roles those people would be required to show confidence toward and in dealing with others or their jobs would be difficult?

Confidence and dominance go hand in hand - not in every single case obviously, but on the whole you tell me how far a politician would get if he can't look another one in the eye and give a smooth public speech, if a C.O. can't chew out a subordinate, or any manager show themselves up to be a nervous wreck.   

QuoteI'm really not anti-science, or even anti-determinism. But a lot of the above seems to be coming from a place of scientism and emotion rather than... well, science. Especially since you can't even be bothered to defend yourself.

Not really. You came in and decided to paint my post as nothing more than "toxic masculinity crap". Now you're going to try crowbar some belittlement into it as well? There's no emotion here, only fatigue in dealing with the constant heckling over "toxic masculinity" nonsense being pasted over just about everything in sight. "Toxic masculinity" has its place in discussion, but this one isn't it. 

Quote from: Kylo on March 15, 2018, 10:48:35 PM
Individuals at the top of a social hierarchy display what we recognize as higher frequencies of confident behaviors. Do I even need to go into this or do I have to spell out everything everyone in here already knows? that the guy who sits in the corner looking nervously around him but avoiding eye contact with others etc, displaying all sorts of submissive and nervous behaviors, is typically not displaying the body language of those in more dominant roles - that of leader of a group, manager, boss, teacher, statesman, C.O., CEO etc., etc.? And we know in those roles those people would be required to show confidence toward and in dealing with others or their jobs would be difficult?

Confidence and dominance go hand in hand - not in every single case obviously, but on the whole you tell me how far a politician would get if he can't look another one in the eye and give a smooth public speech, if a C.O. can't chew out a subordinate, or any manager show themselves up to be a nervous wreck.   

Not really. You came in and decided to paint my post as nothing more than "toxic masculinity crap". Now you're going to try crowbar some belittlement into it as well? There's no emotion here, only fatigue in dealing with the constant heckling over "toxic masculinity" nonsense being pasted over just about everything in sight. "Toxic masculinity" has its place in discussion, but this one isn't it.

Maybe you two should take your argument/disagreement/whatever to a new thread. 

I really don't see how its very helpful to The Flying Lemur. [emoji19]

Ryuichi

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for me the issue isn't confidence, because I'm not a shy person, but something else -- I feel like if I smile or talk to anyone in an engaged way I'm way less likely to pass, and I find it pretty sad. I noticed that i pass better if I feel & therefore look less happy haha

personally i don't want to have to appear angry or upset in order to pass. i don't want to make myself less expressive just to pass. i feel like if i reigned myself in, i would create a distance between me and the people i interact with and I don't think that's worth it.

however i feel like a lot of this is my natural state rather than things that came from emulating cis women (there are some things i've stopped doing) and if changing your body language feels like going towards something more genuine and natural for you then absolutely do that!

 :police:

Lets get back on topic and be careful of kicking each other about.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy on March 16, 2018, 04:56:55 PM
:police:

Lets get back on topic and be careful of kicking each other about.

Cindy

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

Ryuichi

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Things have probably already been mentioned in my last two pages,

I just want to mention one thing Ive noticed with women, when standing in line or waiting, is they'll do a gentle sway side to side on their hips. I've never done this but if youre a sway-er, dont do that.

Vice versa, it's a great femme pose for the ladies not sure what to do when standing around

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 10:43:11 PM
Things have probably already been mentioned in my last two pages,

I just want to mention one thing Ive noticed with women, when standing in line or waiting, is they'll do a gentle sway side to side on their hips. I've never done this but if youre a sway-er, dont do that.

Vice versa, it's a great femme pose for the ladies not sure what to do when standing around

You are right. Stand still!

Be self consious and observe yourself. If you don't know what to do about your hands, put them in your jeans pockets.



Tony

When my hands are not in my pockets I usually walk with them clasped behind my back military style, usually if I'm walking around observing things or doing something. Also, when I say goodbye to someone I'll usually do a two-finger salute that I kind of make a motion away from my head into the air a bit. I originally picked it up because I thought it was cool, abandoned it because maybe it was awkward or dumb that I was the only one doing that, then I noticed another dude doing it so I realized it was kind of a masculine motion.

Probably the most uncomfortable thing to get used to when you dont do it is guys will kind of do a verticle hand clasp, kind of if you went for a high five but you wrap your fingers around the other's hand like a handshake and hold it there instead of shake hands. If youre real close you pull the other guy in for a bro hug.

Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
When my hands are not in my pockets I usually walk with them clasped behind my back military style, usually if I'm walking around observing things or doing something. Also, when I say goodbye to someone I'll usually do a two-finger salute that I kind of make a motion away from my head into the air a bit. I originally picked it up because I thought it was cool, abandoned it because maybe it was awkward or dumb that I was the only one doing that, then I noticed another dude doing it so I realized it was kind of a masculine motion.

Probably the most uncomfortable thing to get used to when you dont do it is guys will kind of do a verticle hand clasp, kind of if you went for a high five but you wrap your fingers around the other's hand like a handshake and hold it there instead of shake hands. If youre real close you pull the other guy in for a bro hug.

Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

A brofist also works. I do that with my co workers.


Tony

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

I second this. I started doing it pretty much subconsciously as I started passing more often, when other guys started nodding like that towards me, and I caught up on the same mannerism in response. For me, this was a sign that I was passing and cis guys saw me as a guy too.

When waiting in a line and standing, I tend to weigh on one leg, but when I shift to the other leg, I move my feet slightly first so that I keep a wider stance at all times. It looks less feminine then, although it's probably more androgynous than masculine. I tend to often ask myself "if I was cis and did this movement, would I then crush my balls?" and if the answer is "yes" I refrain from doing that movement. Wearing a packer also helps me as a reminder with that.

I did say I don't gesticulate/move my hands when talking but when I think about it now, if I'm very, very excited about what I'm saying, I do so a little. No one's said it's feminine, and I think it's because I then do short and firm movements often with just one hand, instead of big and soft/round ones with both hands. I've noticed that cis men who talk with their hands also tend to do that more similar to how I do.
I didn't actively learn that, but I think that's actually my asperger that has made me develop a less nuanced and more monotone and kinda rough-ish body language (as well as speech), both because of the clumsier motor skills and the difficulties in learning social cues that comes with having that condition. And I think those aspects in body language and speech tend to appear more masculine.

Thanks everybody, I really appreciate the input.  The study of people and body language is fascinating, even if you're not trying to change your mannerisms.  I remember learning the thing about gesturing with your whole hand instead of pointing, because pointing is rude.  It never occurred to me that this could be considered a gendered communication.  I'm probably missing a ton of other stuff that's obvious, but too familiar to "see." 

I did get sir'ed on the street the other day, though, so something must be working!

Hand communication is complex and subtle, you're right about the point being an authoritative and potentially aggressive gesture - same with gesturing with palms outward (submissive) or palm up, fingers down (entreat) as opposed to gesturing with the hand with palm down (closer to authoritative). It's not necessarily gendered but it is either authoritative, neutral or entreating.

Just watch the difference between how a traffic cop uses their hands and say... an usher at a hotel or restaurant.

Which hand (and eye) gestures you use during an argument with another guy can sometimes be the difference between an escalation or de-escalation.

I was having a good time in here until some people started strongly suggesting that masculinity = dominance = confidence. Which is a really crummy social construct I'd like to see not get perpetuated by people who fall under the LGBT umbrella at the very least. I won't apologize for my response, because that kind of attitude made my life hell for many years, and I'd really rather not be around people who believe such.

There are ways of talking about masculine body language without implying that femininity precludes passivity, and I'm glad that this thread has come back around to doing so.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
When my hands are not in my pockets I usually walk with them clasped behind my back military style, usually if I'm walking around observing things or doing something. Also, when I say goodbye to someone I'll usually do a two-finger salute that I kind of make a motion away from my head into the air a bit. I originally picked it up because I thought it was cool, abandoned it because maybe it was awkward or dumb that I was the only one doing that, then I noticed another dude doing it so I realized it was kind of a masculine motion.

Probably the most uncomfortable thing to get used to when you dont do it is guys will kind of do a verticle hand clasp, kind of if you went for a high five but you wrap your fingers around the other's hand like a handshake and hold it there instead of shake hands. If youre real close you pull the other guy in for a bro hug.

Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

Yep. All these seemed to come fairly natural for me. One thing I wasn't very good at was making a fuss when two people greet each other, kissing and hugging and all that. I'd only want to be that close to my other half really, or my kids. Getting told one is "cold" for not wanting to be all over other people doesn't happen any more.

Quote from: Kylo on March 21, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
Yep. All these seemed to come fairly natural for me. One thing I wasn't very good at was making a fuss when two people greet each other, kissing and hugging and all that. I'd only want to be that close to my other half really, or my kids. Getting told one is "cold" for not wanting to be all over other people doesn't happen any more.

And I'm the opposite!  To me, hugging/brohugging a friend is perfectly fine, as long as the other person's okay with it.  If not, a firm handshake, fistbump or even a high five is cool too.  I'm an affectionate man, and shows of affection to friends and family is as natural to me as breathing.

Ryuichi

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Quote from: BT04 on March 21, 2018, 05:47:37 PM
I was having a good time in here until some people started strongly suggesting that masculinity = dominance = confidence. Which is a really crummy social construct I'd like to see not get perpetuated by people who fall under the LGBT umbrella at the very least. I won't apologize for my response, because that kind of attitude made my life hell for many years, and I'd really rather not be around people who believe such.

There are ways of talking about masculine body language without implying that femininity precludes passivity, and I'm glad that this thread has come back around to doing so.

i agree & I also feel that the more confident I feel/ behave the more likely i am to get misgendered. so the simplification isn't even universally true

i also find it really depressing that i would have to become less social or less friendly or less expressive if i wanted to be read as male. I spent a lot of my life trying not to withdraw & to be comfortable in my body, now i have to start trapping my hands in my pockets so i don't seem effeminate?? a lot of ~male body language doesn't come naturally to cis men either, some of they way men behave comes from gender policing and homophobia and I personally don't want to lean into that. it just sucks that it means i don't pass where even an effeminate cis man is still usually read as a man.

again tho if anyone feels like more ~masculine body language is closer to their natural behavior & it makes them feel more comfortable then i support that too

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on March 22, 2018, 12:21:05 AM
And I'm the opposite!  To me, hugging/brohugging a friend is perfectly fine, as long as the other person's okay with it.  If not, a firm handshake, fistbump or even a high five is cool too.  I'm an affectionate man, and shows of affection to friends and family is as natural to me as breathing.

Ryuichi

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

If it comes natural I guess. I wonder sometimes in the current climate whether being physically affectionate with strangers (esp women) is a good idea though. For example around other people's kids or putting your hand on people's shoulders and stuff can be taken the wrong way by some people. Not my main reason for not doing it, but another consideration.

It's about personal space, the only people who come into mine are people I know well, I don't meet a lot of super affectionate people. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know - I have American relatives who are much more touchy feely than us Brits. They're talkative and casual and less self conscious about that stuff.   

Quote from: Kylo on March 22, 2018, 06:29:22 AM
If it comes natural I guess. I wonder sometimes in the current climate whether being physically affectionate with strangers (esp women) is a good idea though. For example around other people's kids or putting your hand on people's shoulders and stuff can be taken the wrong way by some people. Not my main reason for not doing it, but another consideration.

It's about personal space, the only people who come into mine are people I know well, I don't meet a lot of super affectionate people. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know - I have American relatives who are much more touchy feely than us Brits. They're talkative and casual and less self conscious about that stuff.

Oh, I was talking about being affectionate with friends and family.  With strangers, I usually smile and shake hands or whatever.

And maybe us Americans ARE a bit more phusically affectionate.  I never thought of it as a culteral thing, just a "I'm a friendly sorta guy"-type thing.  Interesting.

Question:  Do Brits brofist or hug or anything like that, or is it a simple handshake to friends and family?

Ryuichi

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Usually younger people who are more physical. The older ones I see are physically affectionate with their close friends and family, they'll not touch anyone they don't know beyond the handshake or the cursory feminine hug. The only time I've seen brofists etc. going on is among students or kids tbh, but maybe people do it with their friends or coworkers. Not something anyone I know beyond my generation does much of. Older guys are usually standoffish when it comes to that here, formal handshakes being the done thing. Dealing with my male docs and surgeon lately for example - always part on a handshake, but won't lay a finger on you otherwise. Kind of the same with my male relatives, they're not very physical.

It's noticeable when you take a trip to the continent how much more hands-off Brits typically are than the French or the Italians etc. We're more like the Germans in that respect, except we're more talkative to strangers than they usually are. I think with us it's an extension of that whole thing about Englishmen and their castles. If we're on good terms with someone, it's ok... but we don't presume to be on that level with most people.

Quote from: Peep on March 22, 2018, 05:21:46 AM
i agree & I also feel that the more confident I feel/ behave the more likely i am to get misgendered. so the simplification isn't even universally true

i also find it really depressing that i would have to become less social or less friendly or less expressive if i wanted to be read as male. I spent a lot of my life trying not to withdraw & to be comfortable in my body, now i have to start trapping my hands in my pockets so i don't seem effeminate?? a lot of ~male body language doesn't come naturally to cis men either, some of they way men behave comes from gender policing and homophobia and I personally don't want to lean into that. it just sucks that it means i don't pass where even an effeminate cis man is still usually read as a man.

again tho if anyone feels like more ~masculine body language is closer to their natural behavior & it makes them feel more comfortable then i support that too

Yeah, it's very unfortunate that for a number of us passing requires you to rein yourself in completely, or as implied in another thread started by someone asking for advice on how to pass, acting like a straight-up jerk. It also reminds me how, whenever I see trans men taking selfies, most of the time they don't smile - in fact they usually scowl. Trans women usually look as happy as they are. What gives?

I plan on bucking that, no <not allowed> given. I move a lot, I gesticulate a lot, I laugh, I sing (see the whistling thread), I have a rubber face that I'm not afraid to express myself with. I will also be physically strong and (at this rate) visibly muscular with good definition; I'll participate in some of the bro-est straight dude culture, I'll crap in the woods, I'll bust up my knuckles working on my car, and I will do all the above unapologetically. Because I'm a man and how I move and act and talk is male. I refuse to be seen as weak or """beta""" because I'm not a perfect icon of stone-walling stoicism.

For those interested parties, there's a new sub->-bleeped-<- dedicated to men's mental health issues, actually, and the userbase is going to great lengths to avoid falling back on lazy axioms of gender essentialism (and by extension, sexism) when trying to address men's feelings of inadequacy, isolation, etc. Because that's what this "dominance" narrative gives us: high male suicide rates and skyrocketing depression with no one to talk to.

<link removed - moderator>

I talk a lot and smile. Not in my avatar though. It's neutral.

I'm not afraid of a hug. We often hug at work. Bro-hugs with a pat on the back. We do bro fists and high fives.

It would be strange to eliminate myself to be myself. Somewhere there I would have lost myself.


Tony