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Hi everyone. So another thing Ive been wondering about and don't understand is guys being resistant to any kind of affectionate behavior towards another male. I know guys aren't usually affectionate towards each other as a rule but Im talking about within families. Tyler has always been affectionate with me, my mom and my grandma but not my dad or any other male relative. My dad has always been a loving and affectionate father with us. But when Tyler was 10-11 years old he didn't want my dad touching him anymore. If my dad tried to hug him he would squirm away from him. He did it all the time until my dad finally stopped trying. He has always kissed us on top of the head. When Tyler was 12 he had kissed Tyler on top of the head and Tyler actually got mad. He said " OMG dad! You have to STOP DOING THAT!" I was totally shocked and expected my dad to be upset but he wasn't really. He just told Tyler he was sorry and he wouldn't do it anymore. And once when Tyler was 16 my dad and uncle had gone to his football game and Tyler had done some exceptional play or something and his team had won. My uncle was just overjoyed by whatever Tyler had done and he was telling Tyler how amazing he had played and though my uncle is the very last person to give hugs he actually hugged Tyler. Tyler immediately pushed him away, actually put his hand out in front of my uncle and said "yeah, ok, thanks already". I could tell that had hurt my uncle's feelings from the look on his face. The only thing Tyler does with my dad is give him fist bumps or slap him on the back. I don't understand.  Tyler loves my dad and he has absolutely no problem telling him he loves him but he is totally never affectionate with him. I asked him once why he was never affectionate with our dad and He said if I was a guy I would understand and that our dad knew he loved him.  I felt really bad for my dad and I figured that it must hurt his feelings a lot but surprisingly it doesn't. I talked to my dad about it and he said that some guys just didn't like any type of affectionate behavior with another guy, even his own family members. I reminded him that Tyler had always been affectionate with me even before I transitioned. He said that was different and he didn't think Tyler had actually considered me a boy and that if I had been a CIS boy he wouldn't have been affectionate with me either. So I thought ok, that  was just how Tyler was.

But then I watched Tristan interacting with his family and he is the same way. He's very affectionate with his mom but not at all with his dad or his brothers. It's not that he doesn't get along with his dad and brothers or anything. He's close with them. Especially his little brother but he's not at all affectionate with any of them.  So is this like common behavior for guys? I don't understand it at all and I actually find it really sad.

My brothers are affectionate toward my dad, and they were raised by him, not my mum.

I'm not physically affectionate with (almost) anyone. It's not fear and it's not insecurity, it's the way I got raised and this idea of space. My mother hated anyone "all up in her personal space" and I think it rubbed off on me. There's no reason to touch anyone, unless they need it for some reason I guess. If girls are supposed to be more affectionate, well I've been exactly the same for as long as memory goes back. I didn't like being kissed by relatives, I didn't like being touched by anyone at all as a kid. Some experiences as an adult as well leave me wary of anyone putting any hands on my shoulder etc. from behind or from where I can't see them properly.

It's not a problem within a relationship, but that's like the only person I'd really want to be that close to. It's a universal thing for me - goes for anyone of any gender, if I don't know them well I'll be wondering why they are touching me without a good reason. Some people are unconsciously "touchy" people so I get that and will ignore it but generally I don't "like" it.

Some guys probably have an issue with male contact. It's probably more their fear of what the other party would think or do if they did touch them tbh. Usually guys don't need to make a whole lot of physical contact with each other in average situations. I don't have an issue with my good friends but there's no need to just go touching people for no reason, really.

It's not sad if you don't feel a need to do it, you know? You don't miss it. It hardly ever crosses my mind when it comes to anyone who is not my significant other. It would bother someone who needs to be affectionate all the time but T tends to diminish that sense of wanting to accommodate/please others as much with gestures. It might be as much to do with that, before people come in with "the toxic masculinity is the reason for everything" guff again.

I'm affectionate with my significant other. But they're like the only person I feel totally comfortable being in contact with. Except possibly my sister I suppose. She would probably jump on top of me and give me a bear hug and all the rest anyway before I could get away. She's ridiculously affectionate and all over everyone. But I'd not mind it from her, being she was the closest person to me for most of my younger life. With other relatives, to be honest, it feels insincere if they try it. My sister knows me well/loves me, so it's fair enough. I'm not sure about the rest of them, though. I reckon it'd be B.S. if most of them were attempting a show of affection.

Quote from: Kylo on March 27, 2018, 09:22:40 PM
My brothers are affectionate toward my dad, and they were raised by him, not my mum.

I'm not physically affectionate with (almost) anyone. It's not fear and it's not insecurity, it's the way I got raised and this idea of space. My mother hated anyone "all up in her personal space" and I think it rubbed off on me. There's no reason to touch anyone, unless they need it for some reason I guess. If girls are supposed to be more affectionate, well I've been exactly the same for as long as memory goes back. I didn't like being kissed by relatives, I didn't like being touched by anyone at all as a kid. Some experiences as an adult as well leave me wary of anyone putting any hands on my shoulder etc. from behind or from where I can't see them properly.

It's not a problem within a relationship, but that's like the only person I'd really want to be that close to. It's a universal thing for me - goes for anyone of any gender, if I don't know them well I'll be wondering why they are touching me without a good reason. Some people are unconsciously "touchy" people so I get that and will ignore it but generally I don't "like" it.

Some guys probably have an issue with male contact. It's probably more their fear of what the other party would think or do if they did touch them tbh. Usually guys don't need to make a whole lot of physical contact with each other in average situations. I don't have an issue with my good friends but there's no need to just go touching people for no reason, really.

It's not sad if you don't feel a need to do it, you know? You don't miss it. It hardly ever crosses my mind when it comes to anyone who is not my significant other. It would bother someone who needs to be affectionate all the time but T tends to diminish that sense of wanting to accommodate/please others as much with gestures. It might be as much to do with that, before people come in with the toxic masculinity causes everything guff again.

That makes sense. If someone doesn't really want much affection I guess they wouldn't miss it.  I guess Tyler is just the type of person who doesn't really need affection. I on the other hand always wanted a lot of affection and my dad, Tyler and my grandma always gave it to me. My mom is absolutely not an affectionate person at all, with anyone, and once she told me I was a very clingy and needy child and that I needed affection all the time and she didn't know how I hadn't driven my dad totally nuts,

Yeah, you know your mum sounds a bit like mine in some ways. And she said the same to my sister because my sister was a kid who always wanted a hug and to just kind of follow her about and cuddle all the time. I found out later my mum had some kinda childhood issues or trauma or something and that was why she was keeping people at a physical distance (and it explained some of her own issues and crazy behavior I guess).

Quote from: Kylo on March 27, 2018, 09:45:56 PM
Yeah, you know your mum sounds a bit like mine in some ways. And she said the same to my sister because my sister was a kid who always wanted a hug and to just kind of follow her about and cuddle all the time. I found out later my mum had some kinda childhood issues or trauma or something and that was why she was keeping people at a physical distance (and it explained some of her own issues and crazy behavior I guess).

I don't know what issues my mom has or why she's the way she is. But I don't think it was any kind of childhood trauma. I think she's just a cold and toxic person. She wasn't even affectionate with my dad and when he tried to be with her it usually annoyed her. There are just some weird people in my family. It used to irritate my uncle when he saw Tyler being affectionate with me. He would tell him " don't hug me, get me in a headlock"  "don't tickle me, twist my arm behind my back" " don't rub me on the head, use his knuckles ". What a stupid jackasses that man is!

Quote from: Julia1996 on March 27, 2018, 08:39:59 PM
Hi everyone. So another thing Ive been wondering about and don't understand is guys being resistant to any kind of affectionate behavior towards another male. I know guys aren't usually affectionate towards each other as a rule but Im talking about within families. Tyler has always been affectionate with me, my mom and my grandma but not my dad or any other male relative. My dad has always been a loving and affectionate father with us. But when Tyler was 10-11 years old he didn't want my dad touching him anymore. If my dad tried to hug him he would squirm away from him. He did it all the time until my dad finally stopped trying. He has always kissed us on top of the head. When Tyler was 12 he had kissed Tyler on top of the head and Tyler actually got mad. He said " OMG dad! You have to STOP DOING THAT!" I was totally shocked and expected my dad to be upset but he wasn't really. He just told Tyler he was sorry and he wouldn't do it anymore. And once when Tyler was 16 my dad and uncle had gone to his football game and Tyler had done some exceptional play or something and his team had won. My uncle was just overjoyed by whatever Tyler had done and he was telling Tyler how amazing he had played and though my uncle is the very last person to give hugs he actually hugged Tyler. Tyler immediately pushed him away, actually put his hand out in front of my uncle and said "yeah, ok, thanks already". I could tell that had hurt my uncle's feelings from the look on his face. The only thing Tyler does with my dad is give him fist bumps or slap him on the back. I don't understand.  Tyler loves my dad and he has absolutely no problem telling him he loves him but he is totally never affectionate with him. I asked him once why he was never affectionate with our dad and He said if I was a guy I would understand and that our dad knew he loved him.  I felt really bad for my dad and I figured that it must hurt his feelings a lot but surprisingly it doesn't. I talked to my dad about it and he said that some guys just didn't like any type of affectionate behavior with another guy, even his own family members. I reminded him that Tyler had always been affectionate with me even before I transitioned. He said that was different and he didn't think Tyler had actually considered me a boy and that if I had been a CIS boy he wouldn't have been affectionate with me either. So I thought ok, that  was just how Tyler was.

But then I watched Tristan interacting with his family and he is the same way. He's very affectionate with his mom but not at all with his dad or his brothers. It's not that he doesn't get along with his dad and brothers or anything. He's close with them. Especially his little brother but he's not at all affectionate with any of them.  So is this like common behavior for guys? I don't understand it at all and I actually find it really sad.

I have seen this somewhat commonly, and find it sad as well.  My dad died almost 20 years ago, and gave my brother and I hugs, but I saw this happen with his friends he hadn't seen for a while for example and I never understood why.  Some of the guy friends I've had seem to be that way.  I think much of the time it stems from males phobic of coming off as having physical attraction for other men, and perhaps some masculine trying to be tough thing.

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Years ago I caught my eldest (half) brother who was 4 years younger than me trying to teach the even younger one to be tough. It didn't surprise me, James already had three much older brothers who had influenced him. I remember laughing at him and saying, "he's five, ffs. What's he gonna need to be tough for, creche?" But I could see the older siblings have a massive effect on the younger ones, especially their ideas. My dad caught him doing it and gave him an ear full. Different guys have different ideas about that one.   

I think a father/son relationship is so cute. I'd want my husband to be close to his family because it shows he has a good foundation of love in his life!! But I usually go for the opposite for some reason. Well not always.

You hear boys always being aggressive with each other. I never experienced that growing up, I was very dainty, I mean limp wrist level. I had a classmate once tackle me out of no where and I nearly broke an arm. Happened again when out drinking at a college party and he just had me rolling on the floor. Lol I was so confused

I always was laughed at for my soft handshakes. I felt very weird lol like I'm not about the handshake buddy. I think it's guy behavior in American culture at least. Other cultures the guys hold hands in street and no one bats and eye. I've seen that too. I thought they were boyfriends but no one seemed to care lol

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A lot of guys do have insecurities, and are afraid of being seen doing anything that might appear affectionate towards anything other than a female human. Some guys don't even want to be seen doing that, either. I think it's all part of trying to make themselves appear all tough and macho.

Quote from: Allison S on March 27, 2018, 10:18:22 PM
I think a father/son relationship is so cute. I'd want my husband to be close to his family because it shows he has a good foundation of love in his life!! But I usually go for the opposite for some reason. Well not always.

You hear boys always being aggressive with each other. I never experienced that growing up, I was very dainty, I mean limp wrist level. I had a classmate once tackle me out of no where and I nearly broke an arm. Happened again when out drinking at a college party and he just had me rolling on the floor. Lol I was so confused

I always was laughed at for my soft handshakes. I felt very weird lol like I'm not about the handshake buddy. I think it's guy behavior in American culture at least. Other cultures the guys hold hands in street and no one bats and eye. I've seen that too. I thought they were boyfriends but no one seemed to care lol

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My dad and Tyler have a very good relationship even if Tyler isn't affectionate with him. I never experienced rough aggressive play either.  The few friends I had were girls. Boys at school weren't physically mean or aggressive with me because Tyler had made it clear that he would beat the crap out of anyone who hit me or hurt me and he had done just that a couple of times so they knew he would totally do it so they didn't hit me or beat me up. And Tyler was always very gentle with me. He did play wrestle with me but the worst he did was write on my face with marker, stick ice in my pants or tickle the crap out of me. He never hurt me. But I remember how he and his friends used to rough house. Wow, they were rough with each other! Yeah, my uncle thinks he's the expert on American male behavior. He was always saying everything was "gay".  Tyler played football in high school and sometimes he got sore from practice and I would give him a massage. Usually in front of the TV while we were watching it. Once my uncle came over and saw me doing that and had a meltdown! He asked my dad if he knew what I was doing and he said we were right there in front of the TV so yeah he did. My uncle said it was creepy and weird and very gay. My dad asked him if he was 12 years old and if he was afraid we had cooties too. He told him to grow up and that sometimes he had some really warped thoughts and that he might want to consider talking to someone about it. Yeah, Ive never seen straight guys holding hands here in the USA. I don't think that's something any straight guys here do.  Tyler did hold on to my hand when we were young but that was to keep me from going off on my own while he was supposed to be watching me. Lol

Your uncle is annoying I'd gladly punch him in the face lol most guys my age or older never cared that I was so feminine growing up. I may have had one friend comment that my mannerisms are girly, but I think he came out as bi, or feminine attracted/straight later. Some guys like femininity in general but American culture isn't the most accepting for the most part.

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 :-*

Quote from: Allison S on March 27, 2018, 11:06:48 PM
Your uncle is annoying I'd gladly punch him in the face lol most guys my age or older never cared that I was so feminine growing up. I may have had one friend comment that my mannerisms are girly, but I think he came out as bi, or feminine attracted/straight later. Some guys like femininity in general but American culture isn't the most accepting for the most part.

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I'll send you airfare if you will punch him in the face for me. Lol. I never had any male friends. Most of the boys at my school were really mean about me being so fem. A couple of Tyler's friends were weirded out by me but surprisingly the rest of them didn't care if I was fem and androgynous and were always nice to me.

Men have a lot of pressure on themselves even from a young age to be masculine and "ladies men". It's good that Tyler's friends are mostly accepting. I think that's one way that guys show they care and that they're decent. My brother never had friends from what I remember growing up. I was friends with all my male cousins and some boys in the neighborhood. My mom recently told me that when I was 2 or 3 I asked a boy to go buy me candy and chips from the store and he would lol

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Quote from: Allison S on March 27, 2018, 11:21:55 PM
Men have a lot of pressure on themselves even from a young age to be masculine and "ladies men". It's good that Tyler's friends are mostly accepting. I think that's one way that guys show they care and that they're decent. My brother never had friends from what I remember growing up. I was friends with all my male cousins and some boys in the neighborhood. My mom recently told me that when I was 2 or 3 I asked a boy to go buy me candy and chips from the store and he would lol

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I also think guys who are secure with their sexual orientation tend to be more accepting of LGBT people.

I think it depends on the family and how they were taught. I have a family that doesn't hug, male or female. It is not acceptable to show too much emotion in the presence of people. Those are considered private matters. None of us have been told that directly but it has  basically been taught.

Quote from: Corrina on March 28, 2018, 08:36:00 AM
I think it depends on the family and how they were taught. I have a family that doesn't hug, male or female. It is not acceptable to show too much emotion in the presence of people. Those are considered private matters. None of us have been told that directly but it has  basically been taught.

That's interesting. That might explain my mom. I have never seen her hug or be at all affectionate with either of her parents. Tyler and I always tried to hug our grandma when they came to visit and though she didn't push us away she never hugged us back and it was obvious she really didn't like us doing it. I guess some people are just kind of cold. That's sad.

Western culture, particularly the US and similar cultures with a 'rugged individualist' streak tend to look down on the expression of emotion in males.  Male socialization from an early age teaches repression and stoicism.

• "Big boys don't cry"
• "walk it off"
• "play through the pain"
• "two for flinching"
• "take it like a man"
• "never let them see you sweat"

Male archetypes in media are often the 'strong silent type', from Clint Eastwood's "Man with no name" to comic book characters like Batman. 

Male socialization is so deeply ingrained that it is taken as 'natural 'law' by some.  This is used as the basis for arguments against equal rights for women, as well as rationales for discrimination against LGBTQ folks, and trans women in particular.  (TERF arguments crawl out of this space, but we really don't want to go there.

Male socialization and the privileges it confers are not easily given up, even by transitioning MtF folks.  Newer standards of care accepted by some surgeons do not enforce the old 1 year real-life-experience requirement, and I know of a few women who have come up with rationales for continuing to present male and live in a male role even while getting their bottom surgery and FFS done, 'shopping' for letters and doctors. 

One of these folks,  "P", is fully post-op, but remains fully socialized as male, in fact an alpha male, and I dread being in groups where she is present.  I know that this woman will dominate conversation, talk over others, move and otherwise act aggressively, in short, behave as a guy among women.  And yes, she still does the stoic thing, no shows of affection, just a bottle of pent-up aggressions. 

I see this to lesser degrees in other MtF folks, and honestly it does make me uncomfortable.  Granted, as a sexual assault survivor I have my own issues, but I do not think that retained male socialization is one of them. 

I have also noticed that some MtF folks never really had male socialization, but rather adopted a role as a male person, consciously acting out the male role while being largely self-aware of what they were doing.  I think I am one of these folks.  I was reared as the oldest child with a dominant mother, and was constantly the "girly one" in social environments, leaving me to a bit of a loner/outcast life until I started sneaking out of the house as a young girl.  Once I was caught, though, the conversion therapy I received was focused on getting me to "man up" right down to testosterone injections.

I didn't get 'male socialization' from this so much as being terrified to be caught again and resolving to get my "male persona" perfected to have a safe place to hide.  I feel fortunate in this accidental path, in that the persona has been relatively easy to dismantle and didn't interfere with female socialization, which has proceeded very well for me.

TL;DR: Male socialization in Western culture teaches men to suppress emotion, repress themselves, and is terribly toxic, informing all manner of nastiness, including odd 'natural law' rationales to justify persecution and marginalization of others.

This kind of socialisation almost killed me, because I had affection for females and males, but I saw how society cut everybody down. A relative of mine wasn't invited to a family birthday party, because he was gay. In my small town after a certain age you see how dads stop to hug their sons in public. The only time when hugging is "allowed" is when males are really drunk. It took me 8 years to change slowly, so now I can just be myself and I can show affection to any human being I like. I came out at the age of 28 with my bisexuality and just needed an accepting environment. Most part of the society is toxic, because they force males, females and others in a role they are not confortable with.

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Quote from: Michelle_P on March 28, 2018, 10:15:58 AM
Western culture, particularly the US and similar cultures with a 'rugged individualist' streak tend to look down on the expression of emotion in males.  Male socialization from an early age teaches repression and stoicism.

• "Big boys don't cry"
• "walk it off"
• "play through the pain"
• "two for flinching"
• "take it like a man"
• "never let them see you sweat"

Male archetypes in media are often the 'strong silent type', from Clint Eastwood's "Man with no name" to comic book characters like Batman. 

Male socialization is so deeply ingrained that it is taken as 'natural 'law' by some.  This is used as the basis for arguments against equal rights for women, as well as rationales for discrimination against LGBTQ folks, and trans women in particular.  (TERF arguments crawl out of this space, but we really don't want to go there.

Male socialization and the privileges it confers are not easily given up, even by transitioning MtF folks.  Newer standards of care accepted by some surgeons do not enforce the old 1 year real-life-experience requirement, and I know of a few women who have come up with rationales for continuing to present male and live in a male role even while getting their bottom surgery and FFS done, 'shopping' for letters and doctors. 

One of these folks,  "P", is fully post-op, but remains fully socialized as male, in fact an alpha male, and I dread being in groups where she is present.  I know that this woman will dominate conversation, talk over others, move and otherwise act aggressively, in short, behave as a guy among women.  And yes, she still does the stoic thing, no shows of affection, just a bottle of pent-up aggressions. 

I see this to lesser degrees in other MtF folks, and honestly it does make me uncomfortable.  Granted, as a sexual assault survivor I have my own issues, but I do not think that retained male socialization is one of them. 

I have also noticed that some MtF folks never really had male socialization, but rather adopted a role as a male person, consciously acting out the male role while being largely self-aware of what they were doing.  I think I am one of these folks.  I was reared as the oldest child with a dominant mother, and was constantly the "girly one" in social environments, leaving me to a bit of a loner/outcast life until I started sneaking out of the house as a young girl.  Once I was caught, though, the conversion therapy I received was focused on getting me to "man up" right down to testosterone injections.

I didn't get 'male socialization' from this so much as being terrified to be caught again and resolving to get my "male persona" perfected to have a safe place to hide.  I feel fortunate in this accidental path, in that the persona has been relatively easy to dismantle and didn't interfere with female socialization, which has proceeded very well for me.

TL;DR: Male socialization in Western culture teaches men to suppress emotion, repress themselves, and is terribly toxic, informing all manner of nastiness, including odd 'natural law' rationales to justify persecution and marginalization of others.

Don't forget the one I heard from my boss yesterday, "suck it up, you have stuff these things inside and hold it in!" My first thoughts were what an idiot !

Yah. "Suck it up. Hold it in"...  until you explode.

And different people have different breaking points, and express that break in different ways.   Often violently, sometimes involving others in the violence.

All part of our toxic cultural heritage!


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As said above, it's not men, it's Anglo-Protestant culture.  In other places I've been men holding hands or greeting each other with a light kiss on the cheek was normal.


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Quote from: Michelle_P on March 28, 2018, 10:15:58 AM
TL;DR: Male socialization in Western culture teaches men to suppress emotion, repress themselves, and is terribly toxic, informing all manner of nastiness, including odd 'natural law' rationales to justify persecution and marginalization of others.

Women too, will take advantage of other women and men, and they too are capable of competition and nastiness and manipulation. It's really not just a man's game.

As for Western Culture being the devil - have any of you seen the machismo and male sacrifice expected in many other cultures? We pale in comparison to some of these. It's very odd just how demonized Western Society is by Westerners who happen to enjoy living in one of the most free and expressive societies on the planet. It ain't perfect but it's a LOT better than some places you could be standing in right now.

Nobody said it was the devil but you.  We simply stated a single point where this culture differs from others.


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The quote there implies that there are cultures out there not Western where there's no (or much less) nastiness, no persecution, and no marginalization. Where is this wonderful culture?

Nastiness, persecution and marginalization are human traits. Across the board. We've got people from all over the world here attesting to the difficulties of all three in the trans experience (and receiving bad treatment from both sexes). Western culture is one of the kinder cultures to the likes of us. And to men and women as well.

When I keep seeing Western put specifically as a prefix when talking about how terrible culture or masculinity is, it is hard to see where this comes from without drawing my own conclusions, since there are lots of places it's worse to be male than here. Where masculinity alone can earn you a very early death, the life of a child soldier, a slave etc. or a life of continuous vocational obligations that would make the hardest working Westerner think his life's a holiday in comparison. 

Quote from: Kylo on March 28, 2018, 01:48:30 PM
The quote there implies that there are cultures out there not Western where there's no (or much less) nastiness, no persecution, and no marginalization. Where is this wonderful culture?

As far as nastiness goes there are several in North East Asia that I have lived in or visited where people's self worth isn't dependent on being overbearing and insulting ->-bleeped-<-s.  The USA, and particularly one specific demographic, has perfected the art of lying about other people in order to marginalize and put down other people.  The fact that there are worse places on earth does not protect us from criticism nor does it make this type of behavior good, even if it cowers behind a book and calls itself religion.



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Deborah is quite correct.

The existence of worse places does NOT make more subtle forms of marginalization OK.

The USA has perfected marginalization on an industrial scale, devoting entire "news" organizations to targeting and promoting fear of specific groups as a means of focusing political and related fundraising activity.  I have had the displeasure of observing this up close for decades, as the focus is shifted to new groups as targeting of prior groups falls into disfavor and loses effectiveness.


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I never said it was ok.

I expect those places would be good ones to retire to, then? Lots of people migrating to them from here? Then again visiting places is different from living in them as someone born there isn't it.

Thing about East Asia is that yes, people are generally more polite but they are by no means less subject to cultural expectations and obligations that can stifle free expression. Are all the men there free to act other than what their culture deems "manly"? Can they all be more feminine as opposed to masculine if they wanted to? Are the men in general as tactile or emotionally expressive as the women there? (since you've suggested it's our culture that forces men to be this way, rather than other things, these ones shouldn't automatically gravitate away from the feminine?)

I know people in Thailand, Viet and Japan etc who because they've been there and seen the kathoey etc. say that it's a lot more tolerant than here. But is it really? The kathoey and the like are a distinct class within the society. Does the society allow cis men to follow the same lifestyle? The majority of men in these countries are still expected to submit to a standard. In Japan, that haven of politeness, this standard is so rigid and unrewarding that younger generations (particularly men) are often opting out altogether from it but by doing that are failing to have families and kids of their own. That sounds like a bit of a problem to me. Japan can be a nice holiday for a foreigner but by many accounts being Japanese and living in that society is comparatively restrictive. I've known people who felt like they were going stir crazy working over there having to deal with the level of conformity expected.

An American pal of mine just moved to Vietnam permanently. I'll have to ask him how he's getting on. And if it's "freer" than America for a man.