Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Do you think transphobic people feel that their own gender identity is being challenged in some way and are insecure about it?

Quote from: KarlMars on March 30, 2018, 08:36:33 PM
Do you think transphobic people feel that their own gender identity is being challenged in some way and are insecure about it?

No.  For the most part the ones I've known fall into two categories.  Some are indoctrinated by religion and told what to think.  The rest are indoctrinated by Fox News and told what to think.


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Negrophobia, Chinaphobia, Mexiphobia....see how stupid all those sound?

Transphobia belongs in the same basket.

It's not about fear, it's about bigotry.

Some of the people I know that claim gender is biological and the same as sex have been people who didn't fit their own gender norms they believed in. For example a woman who likes football and science fiction claiming to follow traditional gender roles. She apparently wore the pants in her straight marriage as well.

I think a lot of people find the concept of transitioning "icky" and they look around for some justification for their disgust.

Others feel a sense of security from feeling that they understand everything there is to understand about life. Someone who is trans is upsetting that presumed knowledge which is threatening to the persons sense of security.

My uncle and grandpa think being a man is absolutely the best thing in the world. They consider being born male totally lucky. To them someone who would give up the " great privilege " of being a man is unthinkable and anyone who would do that must surely be mentally disturbed and quite sick.

For many people we represent an "outside context problem", something that lies outside of their experience and therefore has no basis that they can relate to.

For persons without gender incongruity the thought that gender might be different from biological sex and genitalia at birth is unfathomable. Some persons can intellectually accept this new concept, but for others such acceptance would violate deeply held beliefs.

The thought that gender identity could be different from assigned sex at birth is difficult enough to accept. The thought that gender presentation and role are performative and independent of both gender identity and assigned sex at birth, and can be changed is just too much for some, with its tacit violation of cultural taboos.



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Seems to be a few different reasons behind the phobia in people.

One is that they might face a sexual situation with a trans person they didn't intend. They view trans people as "masquerading" as what they thought that person was. Why this elicits such a massive fear and disgust response in some people I'm not sure, aside from the trust issue, but I suppose when it comes to sexual selection people's sense of attraction or disgust about anyone is heightened. 

Another is that people fear an "epidemic" of trans people and the dissolution of sociey's safe and familiar gender and sexual boundaries. It's akin to the "gay panic" at points in history or in some societies. But lately these people have a certain amount of "evidence" that we are increasing in number; there is the fear that children will be encouraged to be like us in schools or the slightly more silly one of people just "catching the trans" somehow. That there will be a fashion trend of transsexuality etc. It's not that these people fear you are challenging their personal boundaries, it's that they fear society "going down the toilet" because "common sense norms" are disappearing.

Some religious types just see it as more work of the devil. Because Armageddon is always conveniently just on the edge of happening, and everything's a sign, innit.

Devyl. Spell it right.  :laugh:

Quote from: Kylo on March 31, 2018, 07:04:51 AM
Seems to be a few different reasons behind the phobia in people.

One is that they might face a sexual situation with a trans person they didn't intend. They view trans people as "masquerading" as what they thought that person was. Why this elicits such a massive fear and disgust response in some people I'm not sure, aside from the trust issue, but I suppose when it comes to sexual selection people's sense of attraction or disgust about anyone is heightened. 

Another is that people fear an "epidemic" of trans people and the dissolution of sociey's safe and familiar gender and sexual boundaries. It's akin to the "gay panic" at points in history or in some societies. But lately these people have a certain amount of "evidence" that we are increasing in number; there is the fear that children will be encouraged to be like us in schools or the slightly more silly one of people just "catching the trans" somehow. That there will be a fashion trend of transsexuality etc. It's not that these people fear you are challenging their personal boundaries, it's that they fear society "going down the toilet" because "common sense norms" are disappearing.

Some religious types just see it as more work of the devil. Because Armageddon is always conveniently just on the edge of happening, and everything's a sign, innit.

You always hit the nail on the head.

Quote from: KarlMars on March 30, 2018, 08:36:33 PM
Do you think transphobic people feel that their own gender identity is being challenged in some way and are insecure about it?

It's their core beliefs from their childhood indoctrination that are challenged. The vast majority of people never question those beliefs nor understand them or why they believe what they believe.


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Quote from: Gertrude on March 31, 2018, 12:34:17 PM
It's their core beliefs from their childhood indoctrination that are challenged. The vast majority of people never question those beliefs nor understand them or why they believe what they believe.


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Right.  The majority of people, probably everywhere, don't spend much time in independent critical and logical research or thought.  They are content to believe what their authority figure tells them whether that authority figure is religious, political, or something else.

For evidence of this simply look at the high success of the propaganda machine in Germany in the 1930s or more recently in the USA over the past 25 years.

Quote from: Deborah on March 31, 2018, 01:18:53 PM
Right.  The majority of people, probably everywhere, don't spend much time in independent critical and logical research or thought.  They are content to believe what their authority figure tells them whether that authority figure is religious, political, or something else.

For evidence of this simply look at the high success of the propaganda machine in Germany in the 1930s or more recently in the USA over the past 25 years.

A good study of that was Edward Bernays. He was the father of modern advertising and propaganda. It's all in the narrative that aligns with internal beliefs of those that you want to persuade. I am a horrible persuader. Often right about things, but bad at selling it. Some people can sell anything.

Where I live, it is wise to just let people believe I was born female, for the very reasons stated on this thread. Small minds tend to follow what the figureheads tell them, especially in a community that is so highly conservative.
There are many that follow the fear mongering issues, such as "men going into little girl's restrooms". When it was an issue here in Texas, I've been a lot of posts of Facebook denouncing it as rubbish. Yet, in public, the same people act like the bathroom bills are the best thing since sliced bread.
So much of it is all about peer pressure, and trying to have validation from those peers, even when it stands against their core beliefs.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on March 31, 2018, 04:49:16 PM
Where I live, it is wise to just let people believe I was born female, for the very reasons stated on this thread. Small minds tend to follow what the figureheads tell them, especially in a community that is so highly conservative.
There are many that follow the fear mongering issues, such as "men going into little girl's restrooms". When it was an issue here in Texas, I've been a lot of posts of Facebook denouncing it as rubbish. Yet, in public, the same people act like the bathroom bills are the best thing since sliced bread.
So much of it is all about peer pressure, and trying to have validation from those peers, even when it stands against their core beliefs.

And that's why I'd never live in a southern state. Maybe Austin is different or Marfa, but I don't know. I wouldn't want to live somewhere I wasn't accepted.


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Bet plenty transphobes would love to wear stockings & high heels!

I believe that there is an often over looked and extremely deep-seated cultural fear of what others think about us in Western cultures. And with good cause.  For centuries people who thought, behaved and believed outside the Judeo-Christian norm were tortured and burned at the stake for it.  For centuries!  That kind of deep cultural memory persists long after the practice of literally burning heretics at the stake has ended.

Culturally speaking, it is much safer to be on the side that is judging, pointing the finger, and lighting the torches.  I believe that we of the transgendered ilk are doing the work of the angels. We are expanding human experience beyond its former boundaries.  We are at the razor's edge of evolutionary expansion.

I love and admire everyone here at Susan's Place for your courage and determination to claim your birth-right to live authentically in the face of cultural judgement and danger.  I am so proud of us!

Love,
Miharu

Quote from: big kim on April 01, 2018, 02:15:14 PM
Bet plenty transphobes would love to wear stockings & high heels!

A fair number already do. It's not just men that are transphobic.

I have another shot at convincing some on Thursday with s Women's Group presentation.


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Quote from: Gertrude on April 01, 2018, 11:59:43 AM
And that's why I'd never live in a southern state. Maybe Austin is different or Marfa, but I don't know. I wouldn't want to live somewhere I wasn't accepted.


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Since I don't go around bursting bubbles by announcing I am trans, I am free to live in my tiny town where I have family, as opposed to moving someplace where I know nobody. I have done plenty of that.
I was not raised here, so nobody knows my past. In that, I am grateful.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on April 01, 2018, 07:25:45 PM
Since I don't go around bursting bubbles by announcing I am trans, I am free to live in my tiny town where I have family, as opposed to moving someplace where I know nobody. I have done plenty of that.
I was not raised here, so nobody knows my past. In that, I am grateful.

I don't think I'd pass well enough and I don't have family even where I am outside of my wife and kids. My family for the most part is in NY and FL. I think most trans folks just want to get on with their lives and be who they are. It's the bump and grind with idiots that makes in interesting at best. The funny thing though is that I've moved twice, Iowa and then AZ and now I don't feel rooted in a particular place anymore. I am not an Arizonan nor was I an Iowan, even if two of my kids are. In many ways I am still a NYer, even more so than being an American. Anyway, it's good you do well.

No, I think they're so secure in their gender/sex that they can't imagine that others don't feel connected to their bio sex, and that that's why they don't think being trans can be a real thing. I think it's somewhat similar to why religious people can't accept the atheist view that god doesn't exist and vice versa, for example. Two different world views clashing.

I only really come across transphobes online though. In real life, they either don't live anywhere near me, don't know I'm trans or keep it to themselves. Where I live people either just shrug about it or are kindly curious. Me passing always, probably helps keeping any potential transphobes away as well, cause I appear like a cis guy.

Only once I was harrassed irl for being trans, when I still didn't pass and lived elsewhere, 7 years ago. It was more annoying than scary though. The guy was rude, obnoxious and wouldn't stop asking me about my gender in a very heckling way while laughing at me, but he didn't seem dangerous. He seemed more scared than I was. He reminded me of my childhood bullies who were loud but got frightened when I fought back. I can't pretend to know what was his motive, but I think he just saw an opportunity. Wasn't the best of neighbourhoods to live in, lots of iffy people, robberies and other crimes going on.

Quote from: SeptagonScars on April 29, 2018, 09:40:09 PM
No, I think they're so secure in their gender/sex that they can't imagine that others don't feel connected to their bio sex, and that that's why they don't think being trans can be a real thing. I think it's somewhat similar to why religious people can't accept the atheist view that god doesn't exist and vice versa, for example. Two different world views clashing.

I only really come across transphobes online though. In real life, they either don't live anywhere near me, don't know I'm trans or keep it to themselves. Where I live people either just shrug about it or are kindly curious. Me passing always, probably helps keeping any potential transphobes away as well, cause I appear like a cis guy.

Only once I was harrassed irl for being trans, when I still didn't pass and lived elsewhere, 7 years ago. It was more annoying than scary though. The guy was rude, obnoxious and wouldn't stop asking me about my gender in a very heckling way while laughing at me, but he didn't seem dangerous. He seemed more scared than I was. He reminded me of my childhood bullies who were loud but got frightened when I fought back. I can't pretend to know what was his motive, but I think he just saw an opportunity. Wasn't the best of neighbourhoods to live in, lots of iffy people, robberies and other crimes going on.

People generally see the world through the lenses of their limited experience. The problem is a lack of compassion for different and to be open to possibilities other than their own. A cis gendered person will never know what's it's like to be us just as I'll never know what it's like to be black and grow up with that experience. It doesn't mean we can't try to understand and have compassion.


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There are some people who don't want to be given any thought that their idea of reality is somehow wrong.  Cultural, societal norms are what they were raised in believing. 
And then there are some that see endless possibilities in life.
Groups of "like thinkers" tend to congregate together.  Each projecting their idea of reality.  One strict, the other espouseing free will.
Someday I hope and believe that there will be a society that we all can be happy in.
Hate is cyclical in society.  We are at a peak, but there is a very steep hill of transition for a hate driven society coming up.

I agree with SeptagonScars. I think transphobes are people who are very happy with their assigned at birth gender.

I think it's very, very hard to really understand how someone else feels. On blogs I read they talk a lot about how we project our method of thinking onto other people when we try to understand them (they call this the "typical mind" fallacy (no, I don't know why they call it that)). In other words, when you try to empathize with someone, you can't imagine what it's like to have their brain and think the way they do, so you imagine what situation you would have to be in to arrive at the same decisions they do.

Sometimes this works out ok, but other times it just doesn't. For instance, we understand that other people like different foods than us, but it's harder to understand that food literally has a different flavor to different people.

Scott Alexander's blog, SlateStarCodex has a terrific post on this (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-experiences-are-you-missing-without-realizing-it/). Something really interesting is how people can go their whole lives without a sense of smell, or the ability to imagine pictures in their mind (!) without realizing that that's not normal.  :P

So transphobes are mentally very comfortable with their birth gender, and they have trouble imagining how someone could feel dysphoria in the first place. Instead of assuming that there is an experience they are incapable of feeling, it's easier for them to assume that trans people are lying about having dysphoria or at best mistaken about having dysphoria.

This probably doesn't account for all transphobes, but it seems to be true for the ones I've met.  :(

I agree that it's because they have trouble understanding, but there's more to it than just that. That doesnt give people a reason to be hateful about it.

My guess is it's similar to my own feelings about pansexuality. It took me forever to realize that it IS different than being bisexual; until then, I thought it was just edgy people wanting to piggyback on the LGBT movement, and I admittedly was kind of mad at them for it. I'm not like that anymore, but still. It could be that they just feel it's an "I'm special too!" kind of thing.

Quote from: Michelle_P on March 30, 2018, 09:04:27 PM
For many people we represent an "outside context problem", something that lies outside of their experience and therefore has no basis that they can relate to.

For persons without gender incongruity the thought that gender might be different from biological sex and genitalia at birth is unfathomable. Some persons can intellectually accept this new concept, but for others such acceptance would violate deeply held beliefs.

The thought that gender identity could be different from assigned sex at birth is difficult enough to accept. The thought that gender presentation and role are performative and independent of both gender identity and assigned sex at birth, and can be changed is just too much for some, with its tacit violation of cultural taboos.



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Thats kinda how my mom reacted. "Wait, you aren't kidding?" "You want hormones?" "Am I going to lose my son?"

I think another challenge of being trans is explaining that I am a completely different person but also the sams person you have known all along. The change is physical and mental, but I don't think many people would become completely different. I guess it depends how much they were living there life uaware of their gender and what it means for them to become their gender.

My changes so far have been an inability to hide my emotions (had my identity bottled up too long I guess), I like my body now which is new, I have been eating better and losing weight. I sleep 5-6 hours a day now instead of more but wake up feeling great. My appetite has dramatically decreased to like 2 or 3 servings a meal. I get a lot more flustered in intimate situations, and I kind of want my girlfriend to take the lead some now so I can be pampered <3

Other than that, all i have changed is presentation. So i have changed mentally a ton, but mostly in ways that to me seem objectively good and don not make me a different person. I think another factor is presentation is how the world sees us. So when people hear the outside will change they implicitly get concerned about the inside. Most people have some limited understanding of the process, but they don't get what's happening of course because they never questioned their identity.

"I only know my ideas of other people's ideas"
-Bo Burnham

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Quote from: Miharu Barbie on April 01, 2018, 05:27:46 PM
I believe that there is an often over looked and extremely deep-seated cultural fear of what others think about us in Western cultures. And with good cause.  For centuries people who thought, behaved and believed outside the Judeo-Christian norm were tortured and burned at the stake for it.  For centuries!  That kind of deep cultural memory persists long after the practice of literally burning heretics at the stake has ended.

Culturally speaking, it is much safer to be on the side that is judging, pointing the finger, and lighting the torches.  I believe that we of the transgendered ilk are doing the work of the angels. We are expanding human experience beyond its former boundaries.  We are at the razor's edge of evolutionary expansion.

I love and admire everyone here at Susan's Place for your courage and determination to claim your birth-right to live authentically in the face of cultural judgement and danger.  I am so proud of us!

Love,
Miharu

Very nice Miharu, I have told my girlfriend something similar.

The reason why the LGBTQ community makes so much amazing art is because they have so much to say. I don't think being trans makes me better than a not trans person, but I do think it puts me in a unique place to explore the relationship between gender, society and self.

I remember the weird thing about figuring out I was trans was that suddenly I realized I always had been. I realized I had a breakthrough and "came out to myself." I always thought if I did a memoir it would be titled "my meta-coming out to myself." I would take the role of my sexuality shouting at myself while also somewhat being paralyzed and locked in place. Then, I would kind of thaw after I came out and merge with my male self who had been there all along.

All that to say, yeah this is some very different stuff compared to when I was "just a dude." XD

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