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Hope I'm ok to post in this section, as a SO, but I need advice.
I've posted before about my partner, who is keen to start HRT, something I have major concerns about. We've kind of reached a head, and I realise that I can't, and have no right to, 'prevent' him from doing so (he still uses male pronouns, before anyone jumps on me).

What I really want to know is, those of you in relationships, when your SO has stayed and supported, how did HRT affect your relationship?

What about sex? We have recently been enjoying a resurgence in our sex life, and it's been wonderful. Admittedly it's been different (much more 'girl-sex') but we are really enjoying it and don't want to lose it. It's very important to both of us. He doesn't want to lose the ability to get erections or ejaculate. I am not that bothered about penetration, but wouldn't want him to ever lose that ability either. I've been following a lot of the stories on here, and see quite a few wives are supportive but very little is ever mentioned about sex. I notice quite a few people say they are asexual or that their wives are not interested in sex, but for those who are active, how did you deal with this aspect on HRT?

I read a lot that libido goes - I would hate that! What can we do to avoid that? I know the sex organs can also shrink a bit, but how much? Does the shrinkage affect performance? Is that permanent?

Bear in mind that he is in his early 60s and I am approaching 60 so we are not in the bloom of youth.

Breasts - I know that they can grow. But how much is likely in a man of that age, who is extremely thin? He doesn't want to come out socially so wouldn't want anything noticeable, but he is completely obsessed with breasts, so some breast growth is one of his major desires. Same with hip and butt - I know that fat is redistributed a bit, but if there is no fat, would he still get curves? He had a brief foray into T-blockers which he got online and there was a noticeable change in his breasts and nipples and they became more sensitive (that is how I knew he was on something). He is no longer taking them.

What about emotions? Can feelings and love change? Can sexual preference change? - he claims he's a lesbian in a man's body (!), but I've also seen that sexual preference can change with HRT.

Behaviour. Is he likely to show any personality changes? I'm not sure I could cope with teenage girl stroppiness (been there done that). Can moods change? Will he suddenly take up knitting and cooking? OK, that's a joke but can behaviour, preferences, likes and dislikes change?

Any other changes that could happen?

I'm just so scared that this could be a complete disaster for our relationship - and so is he- so I'm looking for reassurance. We are very much in love at the moment and getting on better than we have for years and I'm scared to rock the boat.

Just to add, he is not currently seeing a therapist - we have in the recent past, where 'gender fluid' was the term used. He is still very confused about where on the gender spectrum he is, and feels HRT may give him some answers. I feel he is fluid, but leaning more towards the female. He has no intention of ever having SRS. He doesn't have genital dysphoria. He's fond of the 'old boy'.

And also, although it's not been officially diagnosed, we both feel he has Aspergers.

I also know everyone is different, and react in different ways too, but I'd like to know what people's experiences have been.

Would appreciate any advice.

Thanks.

Hi Sylvia 🙋‍♀️ I'm Jessica.  My wife and I are in a similar situation.  I am 61 and I have been on hrt for nearly 9 months now and have been told that if my T range was in the +-24 pg/ml range my libido would still be there.  It is at 21.6, but it's not the overbearing obsession it once was.  Though my wife has gone through menopause. She still enjoys penetrative sex with me, which granted takes a little bit more to get to an aroused state but still functional with orgasms.  I too identify as gender fluid and more on the female side, but I can present as either gender when I want.
Breast development, to a certain degree, will happen, but everyone reacts differently to hormones.  The chance for large breasts is there, but not as likely as a smaller set, which can be passable with some males, but would help with how they feel about their female self.
I still possess my same personality and sexual orientation, but that's me, everyone has a different experience.

Good luck, Jess

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
Hope I'm ok to post in this section, as a SO, but I need advice.
I've posted before about my partner, who is keen to start HRT, something I have major concerns about. We've kind of reached a head, and I realise that I can't, and have no right to, 'prevent' him from doing so (he still uses male pronouns, before anyone jumps on me).

What I really want to know is, those of you in relationships, when your SO has stayed and supported, how did HRT affect your relationship?

What about sex? We have recently been enjoying a resurgence in our sex life, and it's been wonderful. Admittedly it's been different (much more 'girl-sex') but we are really enjoying it and don't want to lose it. It's very important to both of us. He doesn't want to lose the ability to get erections or ejaculate. I am not that bothered about penetration, but wouldn't want him to ever lose that ability either. I've been following a lot of the stories on here, and see quite a few wives are supportive but very little is ever mentioned about sex. I notice quite a few people say they are asexual or that their wives are not interested in sex, but for those who are active, how did you deal with this aspect on HRT?

I read a lot that libido goes - I would hate that! What can we do to avoid that? I know the sex organs can also shrink a bit, but how much? Does the shrinkage affect performance? Is that permanent?

Bear in mind that he is in his early 60s and I am approaching 60 so we are not in the bloom of youth.

Breasts - I know that they can grow. But how much is likely in a man of that age, who is extremely thin? He doesn't want to come out socially so wouldn't want anything noticeable, but he is completely obsessed with breasts, so some breast growth is one of his major desires. Same with hip and butt - I know that fat is redistributed a bit, but if there is no fat, would he still get curves? He had a brief foray into T-blockers which he got online and there was a noticeable change in his breasts and nipples and they became more sensitive (that is how I knew he was on something). He is no longer taking them.

What about emotions? Can feelings and love change? Can sexual preference change? - he claims he's a lesbian in a man's body (!), but I've also seen that sexual preference can change with HRT.

Behaviour. Is he likely to show any personality changes? I'm not sure I could cope with teenage girl stroppiness (been there done that). Can moods change? Will he suddenly take up knitting and cooking? OK, that's a joke but can behaviour, preferences, likes and dislikes change?

Any other changes that could happen?

I'm just so scared that this could be a complete disaster for our relationship - and so is he- so I'm looking for reassurance. We are very much in love at the moment and getting on better than we have for years and I'm scared to rock the boat.

Just to add, he is not currently seeing a therapist - we have in the recent past, where 'gender fluid' was the term used. He is still very confused about where on the gender spectrum he is, and feels HRT may give him some answers. I feel he is fluid, but leaning more towards the female. He has no intention of ever having SRS. He doesn't have genital dysphoria. He's fond of the 'old boy'.

And also, although it's not been officially diagnosed, we both feel he has Aspergers.

I also know everyone is different, and react in different ways too, but I'd like to know what people's experiences have been.

Would appreciate any advice.

Thanks.

My wife and I have been married 13 years and of course has her concerns and issues with my changes. She wishes they were not happening but knows they can't be stopped. She is 65 and I'm 62 and we are working on moving forward together. For us intimacy stopped about 6 years ago due to my drive and desire to be truly bizarre sexually. It was my way of hiding the feminine side. When I started blocking T with herbs and the meds I instantly change in mind and body, what was really there came out and I've never been happier. She suspected Estrogen would be on my agenda but didn't understand why if I already had breasts developing. It more than that now that I have opened up my emotions, I can laugh and cry and I have not done that in my previous self. I have become way more caring and feeling and I'm not selfish  and self centred anymore. This is making our bond as partners and girlfriends even stronger, this is how we have decided to see each other. She is concerned about the appearance of being a lesbian couple and she doesn't want that. I am asexual now that I see my true self and that works for us. You need to be ready to talk openly and honestly about any subject that comes up. Don't get angry and make sure you both listen as well as talk. That is so important to moving ahead. As for future surgery etc leave that part open. As hormone change so do thoughts and desires. In December I would not be caught dead in a dress, makeup or long hair. Beginning of March I am in all those and living full time female, I have no plans for SRS either but I don't know how the future will evolve. Moving forward is one little puzzle piece at a time and until you connect them you don't know where they will lead. Good luck and best wishes and try your best to be caring and honest and supportive. Remember he  is still the man you loved and cared for and fell in love with and the feminine side will hopefully make him an even better person, it has with me.

     Sylvia My wife and I are in a similar situation a little further along your spouse will change in subtle ways for the most part generally becoming a gentler kinder version of their old self peoples interests change over time but I doubt you will be living with Aunt Mae anytime soon as for sex in my case the desire for penetrative sex has disappeared but my orgasms as a woman are mind blowing and I would never go back I suggest you both consult with a good therapist experienced in these matters and take things as slow as you need transition is not a sprint but rather a marathon [at our age more like a walkathon] I wish you the best time and honest open communication will lead you to where you need to be

     Bobbisue :)

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AMI notice quite a few people say they are asexual or that their wives are not interested in sex, but for those who are active, how did you deal with this aspect on HRT?

I am one of those that were pretty close to asexual.  I probably was all along, though I'd say I had lesbian leanings.   Then my wife hit "that age", and she lost her libido.  So now, I'd have to say that I am completely asexual.

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I read a lot that libido goes - I would hate that! What can we do to avoid that? I know the sex organs can also shrink a bit, but how much? Does the shrinkage affect performance? Is that permanent?

Yes, libido is pretty much gone.  I don't even do "self-maintenance" anymore.  Loss of libido is pretty much expected on MTF HRT.

My male bits have shrunk a lot.  They are probably half the size that they were.  I don't get erections any more, and haven't had much interest in trying (though I know I'm supposed to, to preserve "raw material" for surgery), so I don't know if I would even be capable of penetration.

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Bear in mind that he is in his early 60s and I am approaching 60 so we are not in the bloom of youth.

I am 63.

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Breasts - I know that they can grow. But how much is likely in a man of that age, who is extremely thin?

In a little over a year, I have grown to an A cup, and they are still growing, albeit slowly.  I weigh about 150 lbs.

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What about emotions? Can feelings and love change? Can sexual preference change? - he claims he's a lesbian in a man's body (!), but I've also seen that sexual preference can change with HRT.

I feel emotions more than before.  I cry quite easily for happiness as well as sadness.  My feelings and love for my wife have not changed.  They might even be stronger because of her support.  I have heard of people whose sexual preference has changed, but they seem to be in the minority from what I can see.  Most of us seem to keep the same preference.  I used to think I was a straight man.  Now I consider myself a lesbian.  I have no interest in men.

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Behaviour. Is he likely to show any personality changes? I'm not sure I could cope with teenage girl stroppiness (been there done that). Can moods change? Will he suddenly take up knitting and cooking? OK, that's a joke but can behaviour, preferences, likes and dislikes change?

I don't think my personality has changed much.  I am a bit more sociable than I was.  I am happier.   But I am still me.  My interests seem to have changed some.  I have less patience for fiddling with techy stuff.  (I used to be in IT, so techy stuff was my life.) 

I'll offer my experience on the sexual side.

I went through a period where I had no erections at all but could orgasm and produce small amounts of ejaculate but it just dribbled out. I had an orchiectomy and my hormone levels went to perfect female ranges. Now I can get a pretty good erection, and Viagra keeps it going for awhile. I still orgasm and produce a modest amount of ejaculate. I'm 56.

Good luck, lovebirds!

Hugs, Devlyn

I can add my own experiences

Sexual orientation:
I do not think it changes. What does happen is we start to let our societal walls down and open ourselves to what was inside all along. It is being real with ourselves often for the first time in our lives.
All of us humans have internal instincts. Aside from what body form an individual finds attractive, there are other wants. So in my case I always had a strong desire for kids. Not to be a father but to carry a baby inside me. I convinced myself this didn't make sense because I was born with the wrong sexual organs, but that deep desire is present anyway. I will also openly admit that while I still do not find the male form a physical attractive thing, the though of being with a man is mentaly stimulating. For me there is an internal disconnect in my brain. I enjoy being with my wife. None of that has changed. For me sex always required emotional closeness to get started. I was pretty much close to asexual before otherwise.

Sexual genital functioning:
When I started HRT and had just estrogen erections were non existant. When I had the doctor add progesterone, it became possible again. I do not really like getting them however. In order to have penetrative intercourse requires us to be in an emotionally stable place. Again I really need close intamacy before that part will work.
Someone else mentioned orgasms. It is a completely new experience. Its like body and mind are one in the best way possible.

Emotions and Personality:
For me this was the best thing. My wife does not agree.
For my side, my emotions now work seemlessly within my thought processes. I spent my life trying to lock them away but now I am free. Hormones don't nessesarly do anything with that but switching them did make my mind "feel" better. For me it was like background anxiety I didn't even know was there just lifted away. It seems nearly every trans person experiences this feeling once the hormone switch out in their bodies if HRT is right for them. True for FTM and testosterone as it is for MTF and estrogen.

Now that my emotions are at the surface and I am learning to be a complete person, my wife does not always like it. I have an opinion now where before I subjagated my own wishes for others generally all across the board. I denied myself everything I really wanted in life before so I can see why some go all out when they come out of the closet as the saying goes. I have taken up cooking some again. Something I have not done since I was a kid. I do know how to sew and embroider, but also have not done since I was very young. Interests may change. For instance I realized one day at IKEA that I get to explore and let myself pick a favorite color, any color I wanted. No more avoiding feminine colors just because.

Hormone response
That is pretty variable. For fat redistribution to occur he would have to put on weight. Hormones encourange the placing of new fat, they don't take away existing fat. Breasts develop eventually. Some people take low dose HRT and have very small growth. Some on low dose have quick growth. Same for full dosage HRT. I had breast buds before beginning HRT from what is considered gynocamastia (breat growth in men). I actually had small growth as a teenager but then it stopped and did not grow more for decades.
I have had decent breast growth for a year HRT and definately added fat to my rear and thighs. I may be somewhat predisposed to that as my primary doctor suspects I have a form of genetic mild androgen insensativity syndrome. I did gain 30 lbs in the last half of 2017 as I was hurt at work and mostly stuck on a couch, chair, or bed with very limited walking.

I don't have much to add, but reading your post, it's like your thought process is in line with a trans person. Honestly that's shocking for me but it just shows you're a great partner and person.. he's very lucky

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I don't have that much to add to this, because I am still at the beginning of my transition. ( Just started at the end of August 2017.)

My sex drive died months prior to my transition. So I don't think the HRT has helped with that.

My partners sex drive is also dead. We don't know for sure why.

I do have sexual fantasies , which kind of intensified sense starting the HRT, but I'd rather not discuss them( saving that for therapy). But that raw desire for release is mostly gone now. Erections are mostly gone. I occasionally get weak ones, but they fade quickly(phew!!)

My emotional range has increased . I can both laugh and cry a lot more. Overall I feel more like a complete human, rather than a humanoid robot.

But my relationship with my partner is more like a friendship. We talk a lot, but not much about personal things .We barely give each other pecks on the lips and nothing else. ( We are in our mid 30s).

I miss the intimacy, but I have no desire to have penetrative sex. 

Thanks for all your insightful replies.

Sadly, I don't feel reassured by most of them :(

We are in such a good place at the moment, in terms of love, closeness, intimacy etc it sounds like this could all go to pot. I don't want to lose any of it, it's taken a long time for us to get here (the last few years, while not awful, had been a bit 'meh').

Other than to satisfy his curiosity, I see no advantage of HRT in terms of our relationship.

Back to square one I think....

Another thing I haven't mentioned - which of course is hugely important - is that we have teenage sons, and partner doesn't want them to EVER know about this. How would he hide it from them?

Syl.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 09, 2018, 03:38:08 AM
Another thing I haven't mentioned - which of course is hugely important - is that we have teenage sons, and partner doesn't want them to EVER know about this. How would he hide it from them?

I have heard of people in low-dose HRT, but I have no experience with it.  Perhaps the physiological effects would be minimal with your partner.

On a transition dose, it is unlikely that he could keep it a secret for long.  Breast growth can become obvious in a couple of months, and facial changes can be evident in six months.  Similarly, skin and body hair changes can be evident in a couple of months.  Everyone's response is different, of course, but these are typical.

A person should go on HRT with the understanding that these changes may not be hide-able, and they should have a plan to deal with them.  For many of us, that plan involves a social transition.  For someone who wants to remain closeted, the plan should include concealment.

No answers, just more questions.

Sylvia, what is the reason your spouse wants to take HRT? If he wants it for the physical changes (you say he would like breasts and more feminine fat distribution), but at the same time feels that your sons can NEVER know, isn't that a bit self-contradictory? It sounds like he needs to think about his goals more and be honest about how to get there and what it means.

Also, I too am a bit saddened by all the lack of intimacy. It seems more prevalent than I would have guessed for couples who have stayed together. Now I understand that many relationships were lacking intimacy for various reason BEFORE HRT came into the picture. My question for those in a sexless marriage is what do you think the cause is: born asexual? developed to be asexual in response to social and genital dysphoria? old age (and menopause)? waning attraction due to changing identity/presentation? HRT mental/emotional effects? HRT physical effects to genitals?

Thanks for the input... and good luck, lovebirds ;-)

Gallinarosa, he says he wants the HRT mostly for the mental affects, but would like some of the physical stuff too. He says he hopes it will give him peace of mind, in a way, calm him and make him feel 'whole'. At the moment he is still in a state of confusion about what his gender is and he's hoping HRT may give him the answers.

He is only looking at low dose, and he seems to think the physical effects will be minimal and easy to keep hidden.

We have talked about this over and over but he still thinks it will be easily controllable.

Sylvia, I have read of a few for which low dose HRT provided them the neurological relief they required. But if he takes HRT and a testosterone blocker, then those body changes will happen. He could try estrogen without T blockers. Keeping some natural T production may help surpress breast development partly. I don't know if that would work for him or not.

Hey Sylvia, nice to hear from you .. I know it's not an easy subject. Also, I'm quite certain I've put most of this down in places I think you've read, however I don't mind repeating :-).

I'm also older (61) and also consider myself Aspergian. I'll limit my comments to what I experienced pre-op. In spite of having transitioned surgically, I think your hubs experience and mine are similar in may respects.

For reference I never tried a low dose and the dose that gave me the levels my physician and I agreed were correct target, T was fully suppressed.

My libido took a hit for a few months (wasn't happy about that but it was a good trade off coming as it did with a huge increase in daily peace of mind). I added progesterone at that point (micronized, aka bio-identical) and my libido returned and morphed to something much happier. Might have happened anyway on just E. Some women I know use small doses of testosterone and that almost certainly will increase drive, same is true for many cis women I know.

My testicles shrank quite a lot in the course of a year on E and my scrotal sack became smaller in accommodation. My <shenis> stayed the same except that I used viagra to make erections last better .. which I'd been doing for a couple of years before to help myself stay erect for longer periods before HRT anyway. I'm pretty sure that the only reduction in penis size that MTF women experience is because if you stop having even nocturnal erections then the skin shrinks, limiting the possible size of an erection (and introducing some pain).

The rule of thumb for breasts is to expect to be 1 cup size smaller than the women in one's family. That seems about right in my case, in 2+ years on HRT I now pretty well fill out "B" cups, getting from small  B to full B took an entire year. My breasts still run a little sore but I don't expect to ever be a "C".

I think MTFs are sometimes overwhelmed by the onset of emotions (I wasn't, welcomed that they were more free), I'm sure I didn't have a stroppy phase. Now being lesbian in body, I have realized I knew my lesbian leaning long before I knew I was trans. No, I didn't understand it then but it's clear in hindsight.

Most of us don't change orientation. Stats in this are pretty strong. Now that said, I was bi before transition, what's changed is now I'm actually interested in PIV / anal intercourse with a male. Not the least interested in men romantically and do factor in that I'm sexually voracious so it's not a huge leap for me. Before transition I would have considered it if the stars aligned exactly, now I'm just  a little more inclined.

To clarify,

I'd be 100% ok with sex with women the rest of my life, no need for penis-substitutes. That's 99% of my interest.

I do enjoy using a strapon with my partner and receiving same from her, however ultimately that's <1% of my interest in sex.

I have an almost intellectual curiosity about sex with men. I have had and enjoyed one time so far receptive PIV with my GF's FWB. However I would be fine never doing that again and I'd rate it ~0.1% of my interest.

My single biggest change in sexuality is that I'm less compulsive about it, however I'm also horny more of the time than I used to be and enjoy it more when I have sex play. The difference was, before HRT while sex could be amazing, it just never seemed to satisfy. I spent a lot of my life chasing something that I couldn't find -- being lesbian.


I hope all of that is actually reassuring. it seems clear to me  you're actually in a relationship with a female and however the naughty bits fit together, that's only going to improve as your husband reduces his dysphoria. That may not even require HTR and even at transition doses, little happens in the first couple of months that's not recoverable by stopping. In fact I think everything except breast growth is fully reversible.

This, however, may not be reassuring: for my part I see little reason to go on anything but a transition dose and I don't know that taking estrogen without also suppressing testosterone will result in anything more than a placebo effect ... not knocking that, placebo effect is actually important in medicine. According to my endo, T will always win over E in somatic effect ... then again, she didn't think just E would suppress T for me, however it did and I've never needed spiro.


However, I suggest you be open to it and also that *he* be open to it. It's not going to take long on HRT for him to decide whether it's emotional benefits are worth visible physical change.

For me there was clearly no going back. I knew within a month that HRT would be life-long for me and from then until I was healed enough from my surgery, I had lingering questions about what I was giving up for the positive change. Again, 20:20 hindsight makes it clear.

And suppose I'd not proceeded to GCS due for instance to a medical reason or lack of money / support / resources ... I'd be OK today. Not as happy as I am (It's a hell of a lot easier to be actively lesbian when the bits are correct). However I'm also polyamorous and so continuing my relationship with my GF is working fine. Sure, part of her would rather I still had my <shenis> and for some value of 'good' our sex was maybe best during the months before GCS.

However I'm not your husband and while there are some similarities, the only sea-change for me has been joy in life. My essential desires didn't change, only my ability to fulfill them. So if he still wants to be closeted, clearly that's possible and if you're both happier with him acknowledging him as somehow female, then removing things that are dysphoric seems likely to be positive.acknoweldging

Lastly let me reiterate that being excited rather than paralyzed by the changes is the only advice I'd offer. Things have improved already, I'd expect that to continue.

S

Quote from: Sylvia on April 09, 2018, 09:04:03 AM
Gallinarosa, he says he wants the HRT mostly for the mental affects, but would like some of the physical stuff too. He says he hopes it will give him peace of mind, in a way, calm him and make him feel 'whole'. At the moment he is still in a state of confusion about what his gender is and he's hoping HRT may give him the answers.

He is only looking at low dose, and he seems to think the physical effects will be minimal and easy to keep hidden.

We have talked about this over and over but he still thinks it will be easily controllable.

Just a thought Sylvia. Why not just start out reducing the T only and see if that gives him the piece he needs. If you need to hide it you may be ahead starting out that way. Once breasts start growing there will be no control over how big they get or when they will stop growing after a point and once there you will need an explaination especially come summer time. I've been in low dose since January and I have 40C breasts and there is no hiding them. They started growing after I reduced my T into the 11 range in October 2017 and it's still dropping. That is the unpredictability of this whole process.

Quote from: gallinarosa on April 09, 2018, 08:55:19 AM
My question for those in a sexless marriage is what do you think the cause is: born asexual? developed to be asexual in response to social and genital dysphoria? old age (and menopause)? waning attraction due to changing identity/presentation? HRT mental/emotional effects? HRT physical effects to genitals?

Gallinarosa

I hope you don't mind me commenting as I am single and have never married and have rare/minor physical attraction to women and zero to men.

You ask a very interesting question and give 6 options essentially for the significant number of asexual transgender members and I truly thank you for raising it. 

I have always known I was trans and since puberty I have "essentially always" known I was asexual and therefore it is either option 1 or 2 for me. I am not certain to what degree if at all whether social/genital dysphoria contributed to my asexuality or whether one is born or to be precise is forever asexual since puberty. Something to ponder over time.

If I were forced to choose between 1 or 2 now, I would on balance say option 1 as although my social/genital dysphoria has always been there, I have never had an appetite for sex anyway.

Thanks for raising this thought provoking point.

Pamela

Thanks again to all of your replies, especially Sadie, for your detailed and insightful viewpoint.

I sent all the replies to OH in an email (he doesn't do forums) and, while I found most of the replies terrifying and depressing, he thought they were mostly optimistic. Poles apart :(

We are now looking at the possibility of either herbal treatments to start with (and yes I know most of them are useless) or him going back to Gender GP (not ideal) to get started on low dose for a three month trial period. He MUST do it with medical supervision and therapy though, I refuse to allow him to get anything online again.

I feel tired, beaten and terrified. But I will not give up on him.

Syl

Quote from: Sylvia on April 10, 2018, 10:05:14 AM


We are now looking at the possibility of either herbal treatments to start with (and yes I know most of them are useless) or him going back to Gender GP (not ideal) to get started on low dose for a three month trial period. He MUST do it with medical supervision and therapy though, I refuse to allow him to get anything online again.

I feel tired, beaten and terrified. But I will not give up on him.

Syl

You are correct that he should use the medical professional route for medication.  Herbal treatments are not safe as they may be contrary to what a doctor may feel is needed for each individual.  Therapy is vital to realizing objectives.
Three months was enough for me at a low dose to have clarity of mind.  But I responded aggressively to the hrt and physical changes were also a product for me early on.
Ymmv (your mileage may vary) is true with anyone, with different experiences for each.

Good luck!  Jessica

Sylvia, go ahead and rip off the band-aid, you're going to learn eventually and for my part I think you'll both be happier.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
Hope I'm ok to post in this section, as a SO, but I need advice.
I've posted before about my partner, who is keen to start HRT, something I have major concerns about. We've kind of reached a head, and I realise that I can't, and have no right to, 'prevent' him from doing so (he still uses male pronouns, before anyone jumps on me).

What I really want to know is, those of you in relationships, when your SO has stayed and supported, how did HRT affect your relationship?

He was very understanding about the upcoming changes.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
What about sex? We have recently been enjoying a resurgence in our sex life, and it's been wonderful. Admittedly it's been different (much more 'girl-sex') but we are really enjoying it and don't want to lose it. It's very important to both of us. He doesn't want to lose the ability to get erections or ejaculate. I am not that bothered about penetration, but wouldn't want him to ever lose that ability either. I've been following a lot of the stories on here, and see quite a few wives are supportive but very little is ever mentioned about sex. I notice quite a few people say they are asexual or that their wives are not interested in sex, but for those who are active, how did you deal with this aspect on HRT?

The big difference is that on HRT your libido will be significantly lower. However, this doesn't mean that the sex-drive will be completely depleted; similar to biological girls, transgirls will need to get "into the mood" before the sex. Foreplay becomes more important in that regard, I'd say.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
I read a lot that libido goes - I would hate that! What can we do to avoid that? I know the sex organs can also shrink a bit, but how much? Does the shrinkage affect performance? Is that permanent?

Bear in mind that he is in his early 60s and I am approaching 60 so we are not in the bloom of youth.

Speaking for myself, I've noticed mostly my testicles shrinking. The penis size will stay mostly the same if you ask me. The performance isn't affected much, but I imagine that this can differ for a lot of people.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
Breasts - I know that they can grow. But how much is likely in a man of that age, who is extremely thin? He doesn't want to come out socially so wouldn't want anything noticeable, but he is completely obsessed with breasts, so some breast growth is one of his major desires. Same with hip and butt - I know that fat is redistributed a bit, but if there is no fat, would he still get curves? He had a brief foray into T-blockers which he got online and there was a noticeable change in his breasts and nipples and they became more sensitive (that is how I knew he was on something). He is no longer taking them.

From my understanding, the best HRT results are due to feminine fat displacement. If your partner is underweight, he might therefore not get the desired results. The only thing I can advice is to encourage him to go on a healthier diet, and perhaps eat more regularly. While I think most people are aware of the health-issues related to obesity, most people forget that being underweight is also unhealthy and bad for the body.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
What about emotions? Can feelings and love change? Can sexual preference change? - he claims he's a lesbian in a man's body (!), but I've also seen that sexual preference can change with HRT.

I don't think sexual preference changes on a whim like that. Emotions change a lot though; it's probably one of the biggest changes when on HRT (in my opinion). On HRT, I've started to become more emotional in general. Some of my tastes have changes a bit in that regard, but nothing too big. I can't stand watching violence on the news anymore (or anything like that), and I cry a lot more often now.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 08, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
Behaviour. Is he likely to show any personality changes? I'm not sure I could cope with teenage girl stroppiness (been there done that). Can moods change? Will he suddenly take up knitting and cooking? OK, that's a joke but can behaviour, preferences, likes and dislikes change?

Nah. He will still be who he is now, just feminized. That's the gist of it. :)

Hope this helped you a little bit!

Quote from: SadieBlake on April 09, 2018, 02:38:53 PMMy libido took a hit for a few months (wasn't happy about that but it was a good trade off coming as it did with a huge increase in daily peace of mind). I added progesterone at that point (micronized, aka bio-identical) and my libido returned and morphed to something much happier. Might have happened anyway on just E. Some women I know use small doses of testosterone and that almost certainly will increase drive, same is true for many cis women I know.

Just going off studies, evidence seems to point testosterone as being the sex drive trigger for both women and men. I tend to agree after being on HRT for 14 yrs now.

QuoteThe rule of thumb for breasts is to expect to be 1 cup size smaller than the women in one's family.

A myth with no scientific support. I am 2 cup sizes smaller than all the women in my family. Size may vary significantly within the same family, sister might be very small, mom big, aunt small too, etc. We just don't know but it seems transwomen don't develop to the same extent as ciswomen, for the most part. The reason for this...a mystery.

QuoteMost of us don't change orientation.

I am attracted to men NOW but probably, always was. So yea, you might be right.

QuoteI don't know that taking estrogen without also suppressing testosterone will result in anything more than a placebo effect ...

Disagree. It depends on the person and the dose of estrogen. Estrogen is also anti-androgenic, used in men with prostate cancer to suppress T and bring it down to castrate levels. Estrogen sends a negative feedback to the hypothalamus and pituitary, thus reducing LH and FSH and testes production. Up one goes, down goes the other. :)

Quoteshe didn't think just E would suppress T for me, however it did and I've never needed spiro.

;) Told ya! haha.

Thanks again, for all your input. It really does seem like it's different for everyone.

Now facing the next few months with dread and uncertainty. Feel like I've signed my own death warrant  :(

Syl

Quote from: Sylvia on April 12, 2018, 04:52:43 AM
Thanks again, for all your input. It really does seem like it's different for everyone.

Now facing the next few months with dread and uncertainty. Feel like I've signed my own death warrant  :(

Syl

Sylvia, I know this is not what you want but if I might add a few thoughts.

If he is in love with you nothing about that will change. Hormones are not going to make his feeling change.
Sex drive is certainly not guaranteed to die.

I think you and he need to discuss with barebones honesty what his life experiece is. That is, how has he experienced diphoria? How long has it been present in his life? What has he done in his life to try to hide his feminine self? Answering these questions will help both of you really understand what he needs and what you two as a couple are looking at. He may have just mild feelings of not being fully male or may feel fully female but has spent his life hiding and attempting to play a role he was told was his only option in life. Until you both understand how far in the spectrum he is, you will both be struggling as he tries to find what is the real him.

Therapy is definately advisable for him and for both of you together. He should spend some time with a therapist with transgender experience. A good therapist will help him explore his feelings and memories.

I can only give you my own experience. I knew since very young I was supposed to be a girl. I learned however by first grade that I had no choice but to become a boy because that is what society expected from me. Not behaving like the boys got me teased and beaten up a few times. I was smart enough to copy, to emulate, and to remain quietly hidden in the back of male society for both emotional and physical safety reasons. I never understood why boys seemed so at ease with how they act. It was always work for me. I learned to watch and remain constantly vigilant of what everyone around me was doing and how anyone reacted to everything I did and said. It became practiced and life went on, but it is impossible to describe what the mental toll is of living like that. Every action and decision is based on what "others will think" and nothing is easy or natural. I am very binary female. Every instinct in my mind is feminine. I struggled my entire life to seperate my emotions so as not to show them. For someone as far binary in the trans spectrum as I am, being female including a full hormone shift is the ONLY way life can continue. Its the only way for me to be right. I realized I needed to be free of the gender bonds imposed on me at birth or I would not make it another decade on this Earth.


This is why I say he needs to spend some time with a therapist. He needs to figure out who he is without society's expectations. Then the two of you can understand what you are both looking at. I wish you both the best. Hope is not gone. Just move forward with open and honest communication. He likely does not want to hurt you. He just needs to find who he is deep down or else he may never be happy.

HUGS

Hi Josie

Thanks for your input. We have both had therapy but have stopped as it didn't really give us any answers. We tried two therapists, one agreed that he was trans, based on just 2 sessions (in which his relationship with me was barely mentioned) and approved him for hormones, the other one insisted he isn't trans  - she insists he's gender fluid, which of course is on the trans spectrum - and that transitioning was the wrong thing to do. I have been trying to get him to go back, or find someone more suitable, but he is really reluctant. He insists that only he can work out his own answers. He thinks hormone therapy will give him those answers.
As for the dysphoria, well he hasn't ever been diagnosed. The gender questioning only started a few years ago. He didn't feel he was a girl when he was a child and his puberty was pretty normal, he had the usual 'male' lifestyle, girlfriends, a normal sex life, a wife before me etc. He says he felt there was always 'something missing' in his life, he just didn't know what it was. While he's had times of anxiety he's not had full-blown depression. Just never really been happy in himself and he didn't know why. Only when he started experimenting with female underwear did it finally hit him what it was. He is not distressed at being male, and he enjoys it some of the time too. He's never been a very masculine male anyway, and I like that about him. He's always been quite androgynous.
He shaves all his body hair, has long hair (and always has), wears 2 earrings, some make up - none of which I have a problem with. I absolutely hate the female underwear, if I'm honest, but I can't and don't tell him that. I'd have been happy if that was enough for him - which for a while, he said it was, but obviously now he feels he needs to go further.
Thanks again for your input.
Syl

OK, well now that we've discussed it and I've agreed to the  HRT, he's now too scared. I think always having this '' I can't do it as she will leave me, so I won't even consider it' made it a kind of a crutch to cling onto to prevent the fear of coming out, which is a HUGE fear for him. I think because he knew it was a non-starter, he didn't really think about the possible repercussions and the actual practicalities of it. He saw it as some sort of forbidden fruit, the holy grail. Now it's within reach, he's terrified.

He still refuses to have therapy, so where do we go from here?

I'm sorry it's been so rough for you. His only way to deal with fear and to deal with whatever gender issues he feels is likely therapy. He probably needs one on one time over many weeks to just open up with a therapist let alone get himself figured out.

IDK what else to say.

Without a therapist, the only way forward for him is the hard way.  While you can be supportive and encouraging, you can't be his therapist.  He will need to get HRT prescribed, fill the prescription and start taking it.  Then maybe he will loosen up.

I was able to get through the fear without addressing it directly with the therapist.  But only because I had already done some preliminary work with the therapist and knew what I wanted.  I knew I wanted a full social transition, probably followed by surgery.  Knowing that, I broke down the fear barrier by dressing as my true self and spending a day in the city shopping and talking to baristas and waitresses. 

Without having done that preliminary work, it would have been much harder.  The most important work with the therapist is to figure out what you want.  I would have been too confused without having done that work.

Quote from: Sylvia on April 14, 2018, 08:41:32 AM
OK, well now that we've discussed it and I've agreed to the  HRT, he's now too scared.
....
Now it's within reach, he's terrified.

He still refuses to have therapy, so where do we go from here?

Well first, get to therapy, true he can refuse. You can remind him that health is the point and that he's being irrational, honestly he's sounding like a complete drama queen ... Which I get, it's not a small step.

Also, connecting hrt with being out or outed is fallacious. As you and I assume he already know, he has a couple of months before anything becomes permanent.

I'm the last to insist that people should be out, however consider the cost of being closeted about something so central to one's life.

Thanks Kathy, I keep telling him he really must go to therapy, but he is so reluctant. It's also expensive and we are struggling financially, so that is another factor. We are in the UK, so any NHS involvement takes forever so private is the only way to go.

He is utterly confused about everything, and somehow feels that the hormones will magically give him the answers he is looking for. Maybe they will, but I worry that a) they may not, and may lead him to be even more confused and b) they may give him the wrong answers. I am encouraging him to try and work out what and who he is BEFORE starting hormones, rather then taking them to find the answers.

I have suggested that me and him go out somewhere for the day with him in female mode, which I know he would like, but again, he is so reluctant to actually take the plunge. He dresses female VERY occasionally at home, and even then it's not 'very' female. He says he doesn't always feel like it, although he wears female underwear all the time (he says he has to have 'something' female at all times but not to be totally femme).

Quote from: Sylvia on April 10, 2018, 10:05:14 AM
Thanks again to all of your replies, especially Sadie, for your detailed and insightful viewpoint.

I sent all the replies to OH in an email (he doesn't do forums) and, while I found most of the replies terrifying and depressing, he thought they were mostly optimistic. Poles apart :(

We are now looking at the possibility of either herbal treatments to start with (and yes I know most of them are useless) or him going back to Gender GP (not ideal) to get started on low dose for a three month trial period. He MUST do it with medical supervision and therapy though, I refuse to allow him to get anything online again.

I feel tired, beaten and terrified. But I will not give up on him.

Syl

Hang in.   Thanks for being open and not giving up.   We need love, understanding and support.  And so do our life partners. 

Karen

Quote from: SadieBlake on April 14, 2018, 12:46:12 PM

I'm the last to insist that people should be out, however consider the cost of being closeted about something so central to one's life.

Sadie, as I've said before, we have teenage sons and we know this would be extremely hard for them, especially as we live in a rural backwater, very macho area of Europe (partner works in the UK hence any treatment would be there). We both agree that we have to put them first, before everything. They hero worship their dad.

Hmm, well back on track, he will get in touch with Gender GP next week and arrange another set of blood tests at the GP - last one was over 6 months ago so will be out of date. He has promised to cc me in all the emails and also will ask for a joint and a one to one therapy session. I believe if you are under Gender GP. email counselling is also part of the deal. Maybe some of the UK based peeps can confirm. Looking to maybe start the treatment over the summer.

We are both still terrified and don't know if brave enough to actually go ahead (both of us!), but getting things started is a way of going forward. I'm still having moments when I just want to yell 'PLEASE just stop it!' but that won't make any difference, will it?

I just so very much wish this wasn't happening and would do anything to make it all go away, but have to accept that it's the way it is. I love him with all my heart and that won't change.

It appears that therapy is a difficult step for your husband. I suggest that your husband consider joining this site and discuss his fears and desires. Many of us have been through the same process of discovery with the same fears. There is something about discussing our feelings with another transgender that's difficult to describe to somebody else. It's like looking in a mirror for the first time and suddenly seeing ourself as we have never seen ourself before. This site could help define the questions to ask in therapy and help remove the fear that we are unlike anybody else and will never receive help because of it. Knowing that others have faced exactly the same thing and succeeded gives you hope that the same thing is possible for you.

Quote from: Dena on April 15, 2018, 12:52:15 PM
It appears that therapy is a difficult step for your husband. I suggest that your husband consider joining this site and discuss his fears and desires. Many of us have been through the same process of discovery with the same fears. There is something about discussing our feelings with another transgender that's difficult to describe to somebody else. It's like looking in a mirror for the first time and suddenly seeing ourself as we have never seen ourself before. This site could help define the questions to ask in therapy and help remove the fear that we are unlike anybody else and will never receive help because of it. Knowing that others have faced exactly the same thing and succeeded gives you hope that the same thing is possible for you.

Hi Dena

He's not against therapy as such, but he's had 3 lots and wasn't impressed with any of them. He seems  to think that any insights gained, he could have worked out on his own. They did tend to state the obvious, most of the time. I think we just need to find a good one, but that costs, and we can't afford it.

I'm afraid he won't join a forum, and has no interest in being part of any 'community', wouldn't ever go to any transgender support group or social event - he's very much a lone wolf, is extremely private and hates to discuss things with anyone. He really thinks that he can work things out himself. It's taken him years to open up to me! He did join a UK trans forum for a day, and then deleted his account as soon as people welcomed him! He does read a lot of online stuff though - including forums, but he's never heard of this one (!), so he's not totally immune from the outside world! And I send him things I've gleaned from here, and other places, quite often! All the therapy he's had has been on the phone. He doesn't even like doing that by Skype, and absolutely won't do face to face.

He also wouldn't join here as he knows I would be lurking and reading everything!  >:-)

He also doesn't want to be 'swayed' or influenced by anyone, which he thinks may happen if he spoke to other transgender people. Neither of us know any. I agree that that it could help him to get some support from people who have been through it.

Thanks for the advice, as always.

Syl

Quote from: Sylvia on April 14, 2018, 01:07:32 PM
Sadie, as I've said before, we have teenage sons and we know this would be extremely hard for them, especially as we live in a rural backwater, very macho area of Europe (partner works in the UK hence any treatment would be there). We both agree that we have to put them first, before everything. They hero worship their dad.

Syl, yeah I get that. And I'm glad to see in your most recent posts that he's coming around.

Coming out and choosing to whom you are and aren't out is one of the most personal and important decisions. Here are some of my thoughts on my own process. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,236408.0.html

Best wishes

Hello Sylvia

As you know I came in here at comment 16 on a related point and I am transgender and asexual.

However I am also under GenderGP and am very grateful for their all round service including therapy and HRT. It is up to you both but I suggest GenderGP is best course of action. The therapy would aid his decision to start HRT (or not) and if started, everyone starts on low dose anyway and he should be able to explore and determine whether he wishes to continue (or not).

Also I live in backwater in NW England where there are so many bigots unfortunately but I have decided to move house  - not a long way away - when I go public and I wonder whether you would consider that.

Finally if he sadly does not wish to join this forum, which I have found most beneficial and comforting, as a member then perhaps he could at least read it and continue his research here aswell as at other places.

I wish you both much success whatever routes you choose to take.

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 17, 2018, 05:46:30 AM
Hello Sylvia

As you know I came in here at comment 16 on a related point and I am transgender and asexual.

However I am also under GenderGP and am very grateful for their all round service including therapy and HRT. It is up to you both but I suggest GenderGP is best course of action. The therapy would aid his decision to start HRT (or not) and if started, everyone starts on low dose anyway and he should be able to explore and determine whether he wishes to continue (or not).

Also I live in backwater in NW England where there are so many bigots unfortunately but I have decided to move house  - not a long way away - when I go public and I wonder whether you would consider that.

Finally if he sadly does not wish to join this forum, which I have found most beneficial and comforting, as a member then perhaps he could at least read it and continue his research here aswell as at other places.

I wish you both much success whatever routes you choose to take.

Pamela

Hi Pamela

He has been in touch with Gender GP again. The only thing I had against them last time was how quickly and readily they approved him for treatment, without even asking him about what his life partner and kids would think. There was a vague question in the Q and A at the beginning (which he shared with me) but in the therapy, he says he was barely asked about relationships.  I understand they are there to facilitate and help people avoid the NHS hoops, but I think they are very one-sided. Almost make it too easy.

We couldn't move. We own our home and our kids are settled. If we did go anywhere, it would be back to the UK but of course, my family and my other kids (from a previous relationship) would then feature heavily in our lives.

As I said earlier, he does read a lot about things, and has done a lot of research. He just isn't a forum type of person and I actually think he's scared of other transgender people. Admires from a distance, but when it comes to any interaction....

Thanks again.
Syl