Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Like many of us as I went through life I had an alter ego that was really just me. "SHE"would push through when my resistance was low. If I was working into the night by myself I would find myself saying the words " I want to be a woman" or " I wish I was a girl" or " I'm going to be a woman."
Then I would think - why do I do that? I always knew deep down I wished I was female but I thought it was just a quirk like fantasizing about being rich & famous. I gave up cross-dressing at age 13 and put the focus into chasing girls and that worked for a long time. Unfortunately more than one girlfriend discovered I had a thing about wanting to be a woman.

  Eventually (in my forties)  " SHE" was so insistent she pushed on through and had me on my knees - it was the end of my life as I knew it. Therapy and HRT and establishing a truce with "HER" started a new life.
  Like a lot of us I have read Freud and am familiar with the concepts. Carl Jung is a new thing for me and I find his concepts in popular literature everywhere. I came across the following in a great magazine I read called-"Womankind"(# 17 Unicorn)- a sister magazine to  " New Philosopher"

(Quote)

                                       LEARNING TO LOVE YOUR SHADOW


Jung developed many psychological theories which have entered the cultural mainstream: complexes, introversion, synchronicity, the idea that the psyche seeks wholeness and that the subconscious speaks to us through mythological archetypes. One of his most useful ideas is the concept of the PERSONA AND THE SHADOW. Jung thought that adults in a civilized society have to learn to play a role and wear a mask. - he called this the PERSONA. Its how we would ideally like to be seen by other people. Behind the mask we bury those aspects of our psyche we deem ugly, weak, shameful, unacceptable or humiliating, which other people may judge or ridicule. Jung called this the SHADOW. The SHADOW is a "kind of hostile brother", an " adversary", a "stranger", bitterly opposed to our PERSONA with all its fake posturing and social ambitions. It behaves like a devil, " and seems to delight in playing impish tricks". We keep trying to bury it, but like a zombie, it keeps reappearing and demanding our attention.

  If the gap between the PERSONA and the SHADOW grows too big, if a person is playing a role that is simply too fake, then the energy to maintain this division becomes exhausting, and the person may have a breakdown. The SHADOW becomes demonic filled with resentful and vengeful energy, hating the ego's false life and plotting to shatter it. The individual needs to find a truce, a way of reintegrating the SHADOW back into the psyche, rather than having it as a menacing adversary lurking in the window.

  The SHADOW is not entirely evil – it may be primitive, emotional, and socially awkward, it may play havoc with our ego's plans for status and glory, but its also source of power, healing, vitality, and wholeness, if we have the courage and maturity to face it. Jung wrote that the SHADOW is not just" slime from the depths ... this 'slime' contains not merely incompatible and rejected remnants of everyday life, or inconvenient and objectionable animal tendancies, but also germs of new life, and vital possibilities for the future". The PERSONA by contrast, is a fake construction, without soul, without life.

(Unquote).


Please tell me if you found this in your own FTM or MTF journey.

  Big fat hugs everyone, Kirsten x.[emoji214]

I can identify with the dualism Jung describes.  I think in each of us there is the person we want to be and the person we really are.  These two forces are at odds with one another.  I realize that this isn't exactly what Jung was saying in the quotation you attached, but it is somewhat similar. 

I sometimes think if we create unrealistic, impossible to achieve standards for the person we want to be, we create a framework where all of the negative forces in our life can gain a foothold.  Rather than an exhilarating journey, life becomes a series of disappointments.  Disappointment becomes the fuel that leads us away from being the person we want to be and becoming something else.  Again this isn't exactly what Jung wrote.  Living a somewhat disappointing life creates a longing for something to fill the gap. 

My two pence worth...

Thanks for sharing. 

All the best,

Katy

@Kirsteneklund7
Dear Kirsten:
Very interesting thoughts... I have no disagreement with much of what you stated and also the "Learning to love your shadow" piece that you quoted is so in line with the thoughts that you expressed and so many of us have dealt with.

Thank you for sharing your insights with all of us... very much appreciated and very appropriate.
Hugs,
Danielle

Look up Donald Winnicott and true self.


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Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on August 30, 2018, 08:00:44 PM
@Kirsteneklund7
Dear Kirsten:
Very interesting thoughts... I have no disagreement with much of what you stated and also the "Learning to love your shadow" piece that you quoted is so in line with the thoughts that you expressed and so many of us have dealt with.

Thank you for sharing your insights with all of us... very much appreciated and very appropriate.
Hugs,
Danielle

Thank you so much Danielle, maybe true self and facade could be substituted for Shadow and Persona.
For me finding rock solid clarity in being trans is a thing. I just know not suppressing and letting it all hang out takes the pressure off.
  I wish I had the same clarity you have.
  Love your posts by the way,
                                          Big hug, Kirsten

It's been a hot second since I've thought about Jungian archetypes. Actually, that's a total lie - I brought Jung up at therapy a couple weeks ago so I could avoid talking about my shadow self. Now that that cat is out of the bag, the reckoning has begun.

You cannot kill what is an essential part of you, you will only make it stronger. That seems to be the ongoing theme here.

Seriously though, I feel you with the late nights thing - I had never really made that connection before, but the less you can actively suppress something, naturally, the more unsuppressed it'll get. It makes me wonder about what, if any, cognitive demands are required for suppression of this variety.

The REAL me was suppressed and became the SHADOW but She is immensely powerful and cannot be controlled. So after 30 years of more and more extreme measures to keep her down I broke and she smiled and said... I told you so. I haven't regretted that moment because she is ME the me I should have always been and I'm so much better for it not wasting untold energy stopping myself from manifesting.

Quote from: Katy on August 30, 2018, 07:52:27 PM
I can identify with the dualism Jung describes.  I think in each of us there is the person we want to be and the person we really are.  These two forces are at odds with one another.  I realize that this isn't exactly what Jung was saying in the quotation you attached, but it is somewhat similar. 

I sometimes think if we create unrealistic, impossible to achieve standards for the person we want to be, we create a framework where all of the negative forces in our life can gain a foothold.  Rather than an exhilarating journey, life becomes a series of disappointments.  Disappointment becomes the fuel that leads us away from being the person we want to be and becoming something else.  Again this isn't exactly what Jung wrote.  Living a somewhat disappointing life creates a longing for something to fill the gap. 

My two pence worth...

Thanks for sharing. 

All the best,

Katy

Yes! Katy,
               I have found that too . Our modern, commercial, dog eat dog world fans the flames as well.
             Kirsten x.

Quote from: lavish staircase on August 30, 2018, 10:46:48 PM
It's been a hot second since I've thought about Jungian archetypes. Actually, that's a total lie - I brought Jung up at therapy a couple weeks ago so I could avoid talking about my shadow self. Now that that cat is out of the bag, the reckoning has begun.

You cannot kill what is an essential part of you, you will only make it stronger. That seems to be the ongoing theme here.

Seriously though, I feel you with the late nights thing - I had never really made that connection before, but the less you can actively suppress something, naturally, the more unsuppressed it'll get. It makes me wonder about what, if any, cognitive demands are required for suppression of this variety.

I love your offerings Lavish - they're infused with a degree of irreverence and wit. Please keep up the humor.
Also yes fighting the inner girl only makes her stronger. The only way out I can see is just let it all hang out she is really part of us and our friend.

  Kirsten.

Quote from: krobinson103 on August 30, 2018, 11:09:19 PM
The REAL me was suppressed and became the SHADOW but She is immensely powerful and cannot be controlled. So after 30 years of more and more extreme measures to keep her down I broke and she smiled and said... I told you so. I haven't regretted that moment because she is ME the me I should have always been and I'm so much better for it not wasting untold energy stopping myself from manifesting.

Well said Krobinson,
                              I think one could write an entire play with the dialogue that goes on between the Persona and the Shadow, the conscious & subconscious, the facade and the true self, the devil on the left shoulder & on the right.
It does feel so good to set her free.
  Yours truly Kirsten.

Quote from: Gertrude on August 30, 2018, 08:51:31 PM
Look up Donald Winnicott and true self.


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Thanks for putting that out there Gertrude - I'm going to check it out.
Kind regards, Kirsten

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on August 31, 2018, 12:02:20 AM
Well said Krobinson,
                              I think one could write an entire play with the dialogue that goes on between the Persona and the Shadow, the conscious & subconscious, the facade and the true self, the devil on the left shoulder & on the right.
It does feel so good to set her free.
  Yours truly Kirsten.

To be honest I had a mental meeting room and I'd meet with myself for the six months leading up to hrt and each day she became stronger and stronger and the social facade weaker and weaker. I felt I was going crazy but what was really happening was me becoming more sane. Now all that imagery is gone. There is only one me and it feels sooo good.

Kirsten

Yes I can certainly relate to this. I think the world never or only in the rarest of cases, sees out true personality as we all hide aspects of our inner self for the sake of reputation, ambition or friendship. So to some extent we are all acting if only to a small degree, all of the time

However as transpeople we become more expert at acting as we know the inner conflict is greater and hence requiring more time and energy to fight or at least keep at bay. There comes as point which you and I and several thousand others here on Susan's have experienced, where we become too fatigued and disillusioned to continue the fight. The dam is burst. We release our true self. As you say,  we let it hang out. We feel better and interact better. We are free finally. Is there anything of greater value than freedom!

Hugs

Pamela

So good to hear from you Pamela.

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Always nice to share things with you too, Kirsten.

Yesterday I updated the "Comparison" thread on HRT Board with your results and my revised result.

Hugs

Pamela 

My story is similar to yours. I cross-dressed as a teen, but in public I would never admit to anyone I was a sissy. The cross-dressing was compartmentalized, if someone asked me if I had cross-dressed, I would say no, and believe I was actually telling the truth, even if I had crossdressed a few weeks ago.

Where mine and yours story differs, is the shadow-system is not so easily explained.
For example, at my lowest breaking point, when I give up and am at tears, I feel like a true female trapped in the wrong body. Like I am a female Jesus bearing the cross of my male burden. All I see is a world of hurt and pain in others and myself. I think about how noone loves me or wants me romantically. Then I think about the rotten people in the world, the humans destroying nature and corrupt politics. And I want to be a spiritual god to save the planet.

But then, other times, when I am at low points, where I am miserable, bitter, and jaded, but not in tears. I am envious and resentful towards women. And then I think about wearing girls clothes. And then my shadow self says to me, no. That I am just a hedonist. That I am letting down males of the world. "That's all they want me to be, a pathetic eunuch. Someone who submits and obeys. One of those feminized liberal males." Then my shadow self tells me I am a pathetic loser. That I am worthless until I man up. And how ugly I am, and how I ought to stay out of the gene pool because my genes are not perfect.

Generally, I ignore them. And then I go out in public, I want people to care about me, and see my pain, but noone ever does. And I walk around with this deep hatred in me, wanting to lash out at people. And the more I lash out, I realize I will go to jail for punching people. So it makes me even more angry to think about, how utterly controlled I am, obedient to "the system", and not allowed to punch anyone or start fights. And it makes me seethe with rage even more.

Dear Kirsten,
I can certainly relate to this, and being a lifelong fan of Jung should have been better prepared.  My Shadow/Inner self was forced to stay inside by family tragedies and trauma when I was a teen, a need to get a job and get out of the house, and wait for a safe place in life to "Be Myself".  "She" was tucked away. My Mask/Facade was hardworking, had a great sense of humor, and "He" kept Her alive and nurtured Her by occasional private and not-so-private drunken expressions of herself, creatively as an artist and sexually/sensually as a woman.  He was a nurturing, loving husband and dad.  When She finally decided she could no longer wait inside, and that it was safe to come out, she came out fast!  At first she was highly sexualized, but then as He scrambled to push her back in, She expressed her emotional side, her loving side, her real need to be part of the Whole Me.  We even wrote letters to one another (Dear Marty....Dear Candy). Carl Jung would be so happy!! The tipping point was when I gave up drinking entirely six months ago and entered an addiction rehab program, and rather than Her going away, She was alive and well and healthy and helping me to be myself.  She is necessary for my mental health. 

I equate the experience of the past months as that of being turned inside out.  All the Shadow/Real Me guts come pouring out and I'm trying to control and contain it, while scrambling to keep the Mask/Facade/Shell on the outside enough to keep my job and family and sanity.  It's not easy, but I'm making it through.  I feel comfortable telling you all this, and that's a big step for me.  Thank you for giving me a safe space to be me.  My Mask and my Shadow are becoming friends now.  He feels like he can breathe a little easier and let Her grow and come out.  She feels like she loves Him for keeping her alive all these years, not denying her, and protecting her until it was safe to come out.  I feel like one person again, although still not sure where all this is going.  I don't need to lose Marty to express Candy. And I'm switching to They/Them/Theirs to honor the whole me.

Thanks for the post, and thanks all for your love and help. You're the best!

Love!
Candy

Quote from: Angelic on August 31, 2018, 07:26:17 AM
Generally, I ignore them. And then I go out in public, I want people to care about me, and see my pain, but noone ever does. And I walk around with this deep hatred in me, wanting to lash out at people. And the more I lash out, I realize I will go to jail for punching people. So it makes me even more angry to think about, how utterly controlled I am, obedient to "the system", and not allowed to punch anyone or start fights. And it makes me seethe with rage even more.

Wow! That's how I feel! It's not even anger it's rage, you're right... Sometimes I think about self harm. I mean no one would care anyway right? Hah it would be kinda fun, but I don't want scaring on my body... I don't know why I care? It's not like it matters. I was basically an empty shell for years pretending. Everything I do I try to cope and get to the next day right now. Yeah... I'm scared this is the rest of my life.. :( I hope not

Quote from: Allison S on September 02, 2018, 02:32:20 PM
Wow! That's how I feel! It's not even anger it's rage, you're right... Sometimes I think about self harm. I mean no one would care anyway right? Hah it would be kinda fun, but I don't want scaring on my body... I don't know why I care? It's not like it matters. I was basically an empty shell for years pretending. Everything I do I try to cope and get to the next day right now. Yeah... I'm scared this is the rest of my life.. :( I hope not

I remember the anger and rage. It lurks in the back of my mind but with no fuel is slowly disappearing. I controlled it by inflicted as much non permanent pain (extreme exercise) on myself as possible. The suffering that caused was stronger and helped to compensate. Now I look back at my drive to do difficult things and see someone running from themselves.

I have found the more I transition - regardless of what I can't change - the less power it has. Now I almost never feel angry. In addition, allowing myself to truly live as me allows me to accept that my brain and body will never quite match and I am non binary and thats ok. The only time it surfaces is if my new life is threatened then its back but this time focussed on removing the threat not running in circles of self hate.

Quote from: krobinson103 on September 02, 2018, 02:47:10 PM
I remember the anger and rage. It lurks in the back of my mind but with no fuel is slowly disappearing. I controlled it by inflicted as much non permanent pain (extreme exercise) on myself as possible. The suffering that caused was stronger and helped to compensate. Now I look back at my drive to do difficult things and see someone running from themselves.

I have found the more I transition - regardless of what I can't change - the less power it has. Now I almost never feel angry. In addition, allowing myself to truly live as me allows me to accept that my brain and body will never quite match and I am non binary and thats ok. The only time it surfaces is if my new life is threatened then its back but this time focussed on removing the threat not running in circles of self hate.

I see what you're saying... I don't know what I need to help right now. I just question "what makes a woman a woman?". I know that seems pretty obvious right? I don't know. I'm just taking these hormones and trying to find a new style of clothing. It seems a bit redundant and I know surgery right now just doesn't make sense to me personally. I don't see how surgery will really convince others I'm female... Yeah I get attention from men easily in public, but am I actually "passing"? Lol I doubt it... I think I feel pity from women? Or it could be in my head I don't know.

I didn't meant to be so depressing in my posts but Krobinson you make very sound points. It's very much moment to moment coping at times. And accepting "that is okay" is okay lol

Quote from: Allison S on September 02, 2018, 03:00:41 PM
I see what you're saying... I don't know what I need to help right now. I just question "what makes a woman a woman?". I know that seems pretty obvious right? I don't know. I'm just taking these hormones and trying to find a new style of clothing. It seems a bit redundant and I know surgery right now just doesn't make sense to me personally. I don't see how surgery will really convince others I'm female... Yeah I get attention from men easily in public, but am I actually "passing"? Lol I doubt it... I think I feel pity from women? Or it could be in my head I don't know.

I didn't meant to be so depressing in my posts but Krobinson you make very sound points. It's very much moment to moment coping at times. And accepting "that is okay" is okay lol

I can 'pass' quite easily now. That was abundantly clear at the pride party I attended, and the reactions of men in the street that night. I even had some supporters assume I was cis so I have to take that at face value. BUT there are limits because as soon as people hear 'trans' straight or lesbian they tend to go okay this person is good for talking to but that's it. So I think for me to achieve what I want I will need to get srs because sometimes you need more than just talking...

I always felt more real when I dressed as a woman. I just didn't have the macho attitude as a man. Most my friends are female so I do have some inkling what it is like. I always felt I had this other personna always lurking, wishing to get out. Every time I went to reveal my self. I could not do it. Six times I went and could not do it. If I were not so afraid I could have done this in 84.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on August 30, 2018, 07:29:31 PM
Like many of us as I went through life I had an alter ego that was really just me. "SHE"would push through when my resistance was low. If I was working into the night by myself I would find myself saying the words " I want to be a woman" or " I wish I was a girl" or " I'm going to be a woman."
Then I would think - why do I do that? I always knew deep down I wished I was female but I thought it was just a quirk like fantasizing about being rich & famous. I gave up cross-dressing at age 13 and put the focus into chasing girls and that worked for a long time. Unfortunately more than one girlfriend discovered I had a thing about wanting to be a woman.

  Eventually (in my forties)  " SHE" was so insistent she pushed on through and had me on my knees - it was the end of my life as I knew it. Therapy and HRT and establishing a truce with "HER" started a new life.
  Like a lot of us I have read Freud and am familiar with the concepts. Carl Jung is a new thing for me and I find his concepts in popular literature everywhere. I came across the following in a great magazine I read called-"Womankind"(# 17 Unicorn)- a sister magazine to  " New Philosopher"

(Quote)

                                       LEARNING TO LOVE YOUR SHADOW


Jung developed many psychological theories which have entered the cultural mainstream: complexes, introversion, synchronicity, the idea that the psyche seeks wholeness and that the subconscious speaks to us through mythological archetypes. One of his most useful ideas is the concept of the PERSONA AND THE SHADOW.

@Kirsteneklund7  - Wow Kirsten, since reading this I have been sitting here mesmerized by how true these ideas are for me. And I have similarly had that low beat feeling since I was young of wanting to be a girl but pondering the authenticity of why I had that feeling and where it should go, if anywhere at all.  When I think about whats brought me to this point in my life now, there are so many different things - like all the twigs and branches on a tree - but leading back to the trunk (not the other way) and the trunk now realizes yes all these twigs and branches are what brought me here, here to my feminine self. 
@DawnOday  - Its such a strange thing to read something someone writes and have it be so true and compelling for me, every time I dress it puts me in a more defined space and I feel more authentic and real, more calm but also more sure of who I am - I never realized that might happen - I had guessed that I would be more confused and less certain about myself as Sonja - but actually the opposite is true.

Kirsten, Hopefully I find the time to read more of Carl Jung's ideas, in the meantime please feel free to post more excerpts from his writings.

thank you for this,

Sonja.

 "Everyone carries a shadow," Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."

True I think. Not sure how much it has to do with the condition of being trans, though. I'm a fairly introspective person and not much about my 'darker' side is hidden from me, so I expect the shadow is not too "black and dense". I'm aware of my awful faults and nasty animalistic side, and while it doesn't sit well with my ego, it's at least 'disinfected' by the sunlight of my own examination. It can't fester inside somewhere unknown and unmeasured because I don't have anywhere to put it that I can't "see" it. It just has to be fought with and dealt with through willpower and a desire to improve. Which, over time, becomes easier provided you are not constantly being subjected to some sort of living conditions that are unbearable and bring out the worst in you.

I'm sure it isn't a formerly suppressed 'male side'. It's the unpleasantness I'm capable of (that I know I'm capable of) and all the things that wouldn't look good in front of not just grandma, but any other human being. I don't think those are especially male traits or things. But according to Jungian/Freudian theory, it also contains all which is repressed... which as far as I know wasn't 'maleness' or 'femaleness' (as I considered myself largely sexless while developing mentally) but it was the self-recognition of the body in the mirror and things like that. That was repressed more than I even realized to the point I don't have a proper connection to what I see in the mirror, and can't seem to properly feel when I'm damaging my body or not looking after it. If I repressed anything it was what society was telling me, what I was seeing, and also what I really was. I think I looked away from just about everything, and lived a very narrow cerebral and skeptical existence. The extent of my skepticism toward myself is only just coming to light now, but I'm surprised by anything that feels like it comes "natural", so heaven knows just how contrived my soul really is. I suspect it's mostly empty, built up from nothing by willpower only. I never felt like I had much of a genuine personality, which I suspected other people had come naturally to them. Maybe that emptiness is part of the shadow I don't particularly enjoy looking at.   

Or... maybe it's part of the problem of being trans... that nagging feeling of a lack of authenticity, of not being whole. I don't know. It's always been there, though. 

Hi Kylo,
            I have only just got an opportunity to reply to your most excellent post. The Carl Jung PERSONA & the SHADOW may not be a very precise fit for the trans experience as you pointed out.
  Please throw me a bone to go out and check Jung proper.

It seems his duality or dichotomy might be between the base animal & the higher being or the primal and the civilised ect.

I have also been hoping to converse with a transman to be able to dig the FTM experience. Your post is so valuable to me.
  I want to relate more to the trans male experience.

My limited knowledge at this point has me seeing young biological females not taking on board the stereotypical feminine expectations right from the start.
As the teen years roll by one does not want to relinquish the masculine self and as a result never feels comfortable in the accepted feminine role.
  I may be way off the mark here, but I would like to be corrected by someone who has actually lived it.

  You pointed out one's soul - having a contrived soul. I often think our souls don't have a gender per se - but we are given bodies in this life - we are dealt cards that we have to make the most of.

  It's ironic when we are children we can often " just be". Just be ourselves - our yin & yang hanging out for all to see - dysphoria doesn't necessarily exist.
When we enter the teen years we have to transition but not on our terms.
We are expected to transition from child to woman or child to man.

  I personally found it disappointing when some of my friends could keep their femininity & become women & I had to relinquish mine.
In a way I had to transition from female to male against my will.
Kylo did you find you had to relinquish your natural masculinity & that didn't feel right ?

I could also go on about my experience of self harm but I will spare you the details - the end result is parts of my life I felt like a robot - I was going through the motions but my heart wasn't in it . Other times the opposite was true.

  You mentioned not so much a repressed self pushing back - but a physical self not matching the heart and soul.

  You intrigue me Kylo - I would love to know more. Please tell me how testosterone and transition felt. What did you discover?
Would being biologically male bring resolution ?

  With kind regards, Kirsten.


.

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Great topic. Really interesting.

My therapist touched on these themes. She says I don't have any strong bond with men as men had no role in my upbringing and my only role models were negative.

I strongly admire and identify with women. I adopted a cheeky chappy persona in my teens and 20s and beyond.
But I spend all day with my shadow longing for curves and motherhood and sisterhood.

Quote from: Sarah77 on September 03, 2018, 12:25:39 PM
Great topic. Really interesting.

My therapist touched on these themes. She says I don't have any strong bond with men as men had no role in my upbringing and my only role models were negative.

I strongly admire and identify with women. I adopted a cheeky chappy persona in my teens and 20s and beyond.
But I spend all day with my shadow longing for curves and motherhood and sisterhood.

I would love to hear where you are at these days Sarah. Is HRT a magic Bullet for you ?
I found getting down to the core drivers of the existential angst & anxiety+ HRT was better than  anti- depressants. I also have a job where anxiety and knowing when things are not right is the key to performance.
Like yourself I value career and family & deal with my misaligned gender as best I can.
  Hope you're doing well,
                                          Kirsten[emoji126]



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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 03, 2018, 04:36:25 PM
I would love to hear where you are at these days Sarah. Is HRT a magic Bullet for you ?
I found getting down to the core drivers of the existential angst & anxiety+ HRT was better than  anti- depressants. I also have a job where anxiety and knowing when things are not right is the key to performance.
Like yourself I value career and family & deal with my misaligned gender as best I can.
  Hope you're doing well,
                                          Kirsten[emoji126]



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Thanks Kirsten. I have not taken HRT for any sustained period because that would be a Rubicon crossed in my marriage. I believe my wife could only see that as the end of us as a couple and I am tremendously loyal to her as mother of our children. I am constantly on the brink of saying...here goes nothing and taking the leap - but lifepulls me back in

 I know how that feels - we don't want to cut our nose off to spite our face.
HRT doesn't necessarily mean transition - is it possible  to come to a mutually agreeable situation ? - I know that's more easily said than done.
I also know you know what you are doing.
Feel free to PM anytime.
  Kindest regards, Kirsten.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 03, 2018, 07:13:34 AM
It seems his duality or dichotomy might be between the base animal & the higher being or the primal and the civilised ect.

I think that's what Jung meant by it for the most part, but he also claimed it was "everything we suppress" too. A person's trans identity seems to be instinctual in most people, or is there on some level beyond conscious choices, so if aspects of your real natural "self" are not only instinctive but also repressed, they're part of the Shadow as long as they remain repressed, I guess. In my case, though, not much about gender was subconsciously repressed for me, or even held back all that much by others. I think I was kind of dim, to be honest, as a child when it came to anything relating to human beings, including myself... I didn't look very deeply at it, and although I detected the presence of gender dysphoria at a young age, I never looked into why that would be; in a bit of an hermetically-sealed childhood and a solipsistic mode of analyzing the world, I never compared myself as much to others - if I had, I might have recognized what the problem was long before I did (mid 30s. Instead I mistook dysphoric feelings about the body for vanity, and my aversion to gender related social situations for personality quirks).

I was the young kid who, due to my massive lack of experience with other people, just took it for granted that I must be weird, that "life sucks", and that everyone else was probably weird and sad too inside (this was half-true I suppose - everyone knows about the problems of the human condition, but I was completely unaware of what an existence without anxiety and depression could feel like and assumed there were no such thing as truly "happy people" - I think I was quite wrong there), and suppressing my actual personality wasn't worth bothering with. So unlike many other FTM I never attempted to examine my personality, or to compensate for a lack of femininity by trying to be as girly as possible for a phase or a few years. I wasn't against femininity - I never felt like I was at war with women or anything - but I felt no need to be accepted into a women's circle, or a men's circle either. I was very much outside of every circle, just drifting through life wondering why nothing seemed quite right for me.

QuoteMy limited knowledge at this point has me seeing young biological females not taking on board the stereotypical feminine expectations right from the start.
As the teen years roll by one does not want to relinquish the masculine self and as a result never feels comfortable in the accepted feminine role.
  I may be way off the mark here, but I would like to be corrected by someone who has actually lived it.

How we're treated by society is certainly part of it, but innate personality is the driving factor I think - it's what one can't help about themselves that ultimately forms the true, inescapable self. Young women's mode does change over time, for sure - I saw many of my female friends begin like me at first, tomboyish, hardly much different from their male peers, and then gradually they would all begin to drift toward more typically feminine behaviors and pastimes. I don't think it was really conscious among them as I watched them all through the years carefully to see if they were at all "like me". They definitely weren't... and they didn't seem to feel as if they were "giving anything up" as we do. Probably because to them, there is no dichotomy and no internal conflict. They just are what they are, and they do what feels natural. We also are what we are and do what feels natural, but there's a pull in different directions for us making us aware of a sense of loss and very strongly aware of a sense of that which "isn't right" within us. In my experience all my female friends grew up and changed and I seemed to be staying static, in the same place, unable to join them, unable to identify with them or the things they wanted to do and feel, and I never really discussed the problem with them for much further clarification... but from them I definitely sensed that their transitions from child to women were emotionally "painless", or happy and desired even... while mine was an exercise in internal squirming and wriggling away from people and roles at every opportunity. Ducking out of life, for the most part. I was able to become romantically involved with a couple of men through the years for the reason that one only needs to look like a woman to really please some of them, and I was looking for some sort of companionship. I didn't have it in me to take on the feminine role there, really - I just made sure that the thing was on equal footing and responsibilities from the start, and that was about it. I suppose now that I think about it, I wasn't really looking for a regular relationship unlike my female peers, who almost all have gone on to have kids and be married, and seem to be happy with their roles. I've escaped roles, but the price to be paid for that is of course that you are not really a part of things, you're on your own, and its uphill all the way. Freedom usually comes with a measure of loneliness.         

 

QuoteYou pointed out one's soul - having a contrived soul. I often think our souls don't have a gender per se - but we are given bodies in this life - we are dealt cards that we have to make the most of.

Yeah, by soul I mean just the entirety of our inner selves as we know it and perceive it... like if I had to say what made me what I am, there's the unknown biological factors, but also all the introspection and those moments in life when you say to yourself "I want to be ______" or "I want to be like X person", when you're inspired by something and consciously move toward being that way yourself. Those female friends of mine had a natural quality about them, as did the male friends - in fact I felt everyone in the world must be and act fully natural but myself who seemed awkward and had to look into everything and didn't usually have a smooth answer to a question. I feel that my personality was built up mostly from trying to be like something or someone who inspired me, rather than it coming naturally from within, so I thought it was contrived to be that way by my own desires and for some time it felt false. Over the decades though, it eventually does seem to become what you are. I think I have a definite personality now. Or maybe I'm just a super-slow developer. (I do tend to be late to just about every party). But one thing was for sure that wasn't contrived, and that was dysphoria. I thought it was probably some fault of my own, but it really was just an aversion to certain things that came from somewhere within. I suppose in some ways, the dysphoria was the only true expression for a while of what I really was. And I ignored it for ages.

QuoteIt's ironic when we are children we can often " just be". Just be ourselves - our yin & yang hanging out for all to see - dysphoria doesn't necessarily exist.
When we enter the teen years we have to transition but not on our terms.
We are expected to transition from child to woman or child to man.

I do wonder how it is that other people experienced puberty. Because I knew all about it from parents and what was coming a couple of years before it happened and I wasn't happy about it. They all said I'd be cool with it after a while but I never was, and ofc I think that was purely gender dysphoria rather than the general weirdness of puberty a lot of kids feel. I was angry about it. I remember wanting to grow up for logistical reasons - so I could get out of the house and go to university away from my parents arguing with each other - it wasn't a desire to cling to anything I already had. But given the role it was pushing me toward and the attention I was getting from males and the changing expectations of my parents, in all it wasn't a pleasant experience. (Whose puberty ever is though, I guess.) I grew up... but I didn't really change. I still seem to have the same sort of brain and way of looking at things as I did at the age of 19. I never was - due to being trans I suppose - able to truly mature into an adult that goes off and creates their own family. I was just stuck in the post-pubertal mindset, never to graduate. I'm not sure if that's good or bad for me, really. I don't quite know what I'm missing, but I know I'm missing something profound. I also don't think I could ever really have it, everything it just a bit too messed up in my case.

QuoteI personally found it disappointing when some of my friends could keep their femininity & become women & I had to relinquish mine.
In a way I had to transition from female to male against my will.
Kylo did you find you had to relinquish your natural masculinity & that didn't feel right ?

Honestly I didn't relinquish much, but I think I had an advantage there that you did not... that is, people will tolerate a lot of strange behavior and tomboyishness and lack of productivity from someone they perceive female compared to someone they perceive male. I was able to drift around and not alter my natural masculinity much at all, so long as I looked like your average straight woman.

The only time when I was not able to avert issue was with sexual matters. Men would approach me a lot and my average instinct toward this was indifference, or aggression. I didn't like how men generally approached women - or me - because I could tell what they were after, which I didn't have much interest in, and I felt most of the time the flattery was utterly laughable, or that anyone falling in love with me was after all, falling in love with just an image in their own mind because they didn't know the half it, and that half would terrify and repulse them if they did. And if they got pushy I didn't know how to handle it any differently than the average man handles it when another man tries to grab his arse. As a result there were some altercations, and I generally avoided anyone who showed interest in me. When I did eventually get involved in relationships, the relationships and the people were fine, but there was always that fact that the female sexual role was extremely emasculating to me. I did try very hard to find a way to like it, but I never really could. That always made sexual relationships something of a dead-end for me... something I would like, like everyone would like, to have a partner they like and trust... but for me there was always a sense that I was sacrificing a great deal internally and psychologically to be able to have it. When things get bumpy, it occurred to me that I felt like I had "sacrificed" more than they had just to be in a relationship, and explaining that was awful. It made them feel bad too, because they could understand the idea of being emasculated and didn't like the idea they were inflicting it unknowingly on me.

There was also the fact that I had the sort of personality that wouldn't be dominated in a relationship, so I ended up with people who were either the same as me, or submissive. That's not a problem in itself, but it can get very frustrating when you have the sort of personality that likes a challenge, but you end up with people who don't. But not the worst thing in the world to have to deal with. 

QuoteI could also go on about my experience of self harm but I will spare you the details - the end result is parts of my life I felt like a robot - I was going through the motions but my heart wasn't in it . Other times the opposite was true.

Although I cannot relate to having to lived a suppressed life, I can imagine how awful that is and how difficult it is to cope with. During my own life I have had issues that I dealt with through writing, or drama, or art though. Those things have got me through living in this unhappy predicament by allowing for some escapism and acting out through productive channels. Especially drama classes with other people. I recommend that for anyone trying to deal with pent-up emotions and a lack of interaction at the same time. It sounds a bit daft but I think it can actually help you find yourself better, to get into another headspace for a while. 

 

QuoteYou mentioned not so much a repressed self pushing back - but a physical self not matching the heart and soul.

  You intrigue me Kylo - I would love to know more. Please tell me how testosterone and transition felt. What did you discover?

Testosterone changed the way my mind works quite profoundly... I was always too much in touch my my emotions in some ways and they tormented me; HRT brought me back a bit from that edge and gives me the ability to think clearly without becoming too emotionally involved. Its a bit like the "white noise" in my brain being tuned out, along with the little doubts and worries that were always seeping into my mind. I imagine that for MTF who feel as though they need to be more in touch with their feelings, who do not want to feel detached or robotic, then taking the female HRT will bring them the same kind of immense relief and sense of being able to feel one's true self. Estrogen does seem to alter the way your brain functions - if a male brain is a series of separate compartments for things and men are good at compartmentalization (which I'm now able to do and I find it quite helpful) then a female brain is like a large compartment with all the smaller compartments inside, or all the compartments are continuously connected to each other... one thought process leads quickly to another and everything is intertwined somehow. I think dreams are more emotional on estrogen for sure, whereas my dreams are more like a crazy slideshow now and I don't wake up feeling as if I got all that involved. For me that's a relief, because I used to have intense dreams about people I didn't like trapping me in situations I didn't want... but for someone who would like to have a more sensual experience of life and dreams in general, female HRT is probably the ticket.

I feel much more balanced now - the intense emotions I felt are tempered, the sadness and doubt and intrusive worries are mostly gone from my brain. I'm sure that's the HRT and not just wishful thinking, as I was pretty skeptical that HRT would even help me before I took it. I also ended up much calmer. I used to get into towering rages - I think because of the cumulative frustration of my life just getting worse with time, my anger also got worse - and now I pretty much feel none of that. I spend much less time arguing with people and worrying about what they think, and I'm more friendly because of that lack of worry about what they think. I had some surgery this year and I'm surprised that the result of the surgery is that I just no longer worry about those body parts. They're gone now and it's as it should be to my brain, so I just feel as though things have been smoothed over. I wouldn't say I'm ecstatic about it or anything - it's just the sort of satisfaction you get when you had a cut and it heals over finally and stops hurting. You don't think about it much as such, but you do appreciate that the nagging wound is gone. There's been lots of subtle changes especially psychologically, but they've all been positive. I didn't turn into an aggressive jerk, like people thought I would, and I just feel like someone whose finally recovered from a very very long nervous breakdown or something. It's a bit odd describing it that way, but true.   

QuoteWould being biologically male bring resolution ?

You mean full transition or would being actually male and XY resolve it all? Hm, it's not really necessary. I'm not all that at odds with myself or my body to that extent, and I'm quite happy now - happier than I've ever been in my life just on the HRT alone. I think of myself as male and other people can think what they will, really. The HRT and the chest surgery definitely brought me more than I could have hoped for in terms of peace... and if I get the rest of it done, I'm sure that will just be like adding a finishing touch. The main slog is over now, and I'm still the same person, I just seem to lack the dysphoria and the anxiety and a dimension of stress I used to have. It would be nice if I had all the perks of an XY development but I'm mostly content with who I am and I think the worst of sorting all that out is behind me, so where I am now seems to have brought enough resolution. I'll continue on with the rest of it, but it's very important that you be content with yourself as a person inside first for the easiest ride. It's not been too tough for me because I reckon I went through the worst of it all trying to figure out who I am and if was worth existing back in my early 20s - which was horrendous, but it's in the past now, thank God.

Please PM me if you ever feel like it. I'm blown away by the latest post. Just taking it all in. Keen to reply later.
PS I'm a Camille Paglia fan - I loved "Sexual Personae"
I'm also a recreational diver .
I would love to be able to converse more .
                Yours truly, Kirsten. [emoji258]


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QuoteTestosterone changed the way my mind works quite profoundly... I was always too much in touch my my emotions in some ways and they tormented me; HRT brought me back a bit from that edge and gives me the ability to think clearly without becoming too emotionally involved. Its a bit like the "white noise" in my brain being tuned out, along with the little doubts and worries that were always seeping into my mind. I imagine that for MTF who feel as though they need to be more in touch with their feelings, who do not want to feel detached or robotic, then taking the female HRT will bring them the same kind of immense relief and sense of being able to feel one's true self. Estrogen does seem to alter the way your brain functions - if a male brain is a series of separate compartments for things and men are good at compartmentalization (which I'm now able to do and I find it quite helpful) then a female brain is like a large compartment with all the smaller compartments inside, or all the compartments are continuously connected to each other... one thought process leads quickly to another and everything is intertwined somehow. I think dreams are more emotional on estrogen for sure, whereas my dreams are more like a crazy slideshow now and I don't wake up feeling as if I got all that involved. For me that's a relief, because I used to have intense dreams about people I didn't like trapping me in situations I didn't want... but for someone who would like to have a more sensual experience of life and dreams in general, female HRT is probably the ticket.

I feel the opposite! I struggled being emotionless. I couldn't even cry at my Mothers funeral. I hated being hyper focused on the mission of the day. I LOVE the effect of estrogen on my brain which has always been more feminine anyways. It was like a 1000 ton weight being lifted being rid of testosterone. :)

Quote from: krobinson103 on September 04, 2018, 01:13:13 AM
I feel the opposite! I struggled being emotionless. I couldn't even cry at my Mothers funeral. I hated being hyper focused on the mission of the day. I LOVE the effect of estrogen on my brain which has always been more feminine anyways. It was like a 1000 ton weight being lifted being rid of testosterone. :)

I know that feeling well krobinson!

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