Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone. I've read several post here on Susan's, ->-bleeped-<- and other sites where people suggest to others to "try HRT and see how you feel." Many times the initial post is from someone contemplating transition (MTF) or from someone who is wrestling with the idea that they may or may not be transgender. Now I personally am trans but my decision of if and when to start HRT has not been made yet. If I do start HRT then my relationships with others both personally and professionally will change considerably. For this reason I am taking things very slow and putting a lot of careful thought and consideration into my final decision. My concern is that once HRT is started that the changes with breast development could be permanent and irreversible within a relatively short period of time. Yes, I know YMMV and this breast development takes months to years to reach its maximum but at what point does it become irreversible? I've read from people who report budding breast in just two weeks. Now for trans folks who are 100% cool with transitioning fully and have no intention of turning back then this early breast development will no doubt be a welcomed change. But what about that person who is unsure and who may have second thoughts? An example might be someone who starts HRT (just to try it out) and then just 3 or 4 weeks in starts to bud breast. Then for whatever reason they decide it's not for them. Are those buds then permanent and irreversible and will they have to just live with them? I don't know the exact answers to this question which is why I'm posting to get your feedback. But one thing that is clear to me (IMHO) is that folks who offer the suggestion to "try HRT and see how you feel" need to be very clear about the potential permanent affects that could in fact be irreversible. Thoughts?

From what I've read from various online sources, breast tissue (buds) will reduce in size but not disappear entirely. My son was once very overweight and has developed breast tissue (man boobs) that will never go away completely. He's lost well over 100 lbs. and still has bigger boobs than me. [emoji25] Surgery is about the only way to completely remove it all, much the same as what trans men do when they have top surgery.

I would think two months would be about the point that most would have enough growth that some tissue will remain. After around a year you run the risk of sterility.

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Quote from: heather3791 on August 31, 2018, 07:59:14 AM
Hi everyone. I've read several post here on Susan's, ->-bleeped-<- and other sites where people suggest to others to "try HRT and see how you feel." Many times the initial post is from someone contemplating transition (MTF) or from someone who is wrestling with the idea that they may or may not be transgender. Now I personally am trans but my decision of if and when to start HRT has not been made yet. If I do start HRT then my relationships with others both personally and professionally will change considerably. For this reason I am taking things very slow and putting a lot of careful thought and consideration into my final decision. My concern is that once HRT is started that the changes with breast development could be permanent and irreversible within a relatively short period of time. Yes, I know YMMV and this breast development takes months to years to reach its maximum but at what point does it become irreversible? I've read from people who report budding breast in just two weeks. Now for trans folks who are 100% cool with transitioning fully and have no intention of turning back then this early breast development will no doubt be a welcomed change. But what about that person who is unsure and who may have second thoughts? An example might be someone who starts HRT (just to try it out) and then just 3 or 4 weeks in starts to bud breast. Then for whatever reason they decide it's not for them. Are those buds then permanent and irreversible and will they have to just live with them? I don't know the exact answers to this question which is why I'm posting to get your feedback. But one thing that is clear to me (IMHO) is that folks who offer the suggestion to "try HRT and see how you feel" need to be very clear about the potential permanent affects that could in fact be irreversible. Thoughts?

The person trying HRT is the one who needs to be cautious and know what they want. All of the effects are covered by your provider before you start HRT, and also in the drug information sheet that comes with each and every refill of your prescription.

Hugs, Devlyn

Well if you don't want to take estrogen, take testosterone and see how you feel. I doubt it will make you feel any better honestly.

Quote from: Devlyn on August 31, 2018, 08:38:50 AM
The person trying HRT is the one who needs to be cautious and know what they want.

^THIS

Quote from: heather3791 on August 31, 2018, 07:59:14 AMIf I do start HRT then my relationships with others both personally and professionally will change considerably.

Not necessarily. HRT may simply relieve your dysphoria so you can be content living your life as a guy.

Quote from: heather3791 on August 31, 2018, 07:59:14 AMI know YMMV and this breast development takes months to years to reach its maximum but at what point does it become irreversible?"

Breasts don't sprout over night, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If breast growth/permanence is a concern, why would you even consider pushing the envelope? Provided a person is not on injectable hormones, HRT can be stopped the minute they feel hormones are not right for them, ...LONG before any breast growth or permanent changes.

Breast development is permanent.  Someone on HRT who decides to stop needs to make that decision before the breasts exceed the plausible range of gynecomastia ("man boobs"). 

If the person decides that the breasts are already too big to be acceptable, the only option is a double mastectomy.  And that, too, is permanent.  Once a mastectomy has been performed, there is no breast tissue left to try again.

As has been mentioned above, before starting HRT, your physician or therapist will do an "informed consent" exercise, explaining to you about these and other effects of HRT, and will get you to sign an informed consent document.  If you have any doubts at that point, don't sign!

Quote from: StacyRenee on August 31, 2018, 08:33:11 AM
My son was once very overweight and has developed breast tissue (man boobs) that will never go away completely. He's lost well over 100 lbs. and still has bigger boobs than me. [emoji25]

Is that how it works? I didn't think that if your breasts grew due to weight gain, it sticks there even after you lose the weight.

I started the process of coming out to myself and some family and close friends months before starting hormones.  I wanted to see if that would feel genuine, and it did.  I came out publicly as transitioning on my birthday last year, three months before I started hormones.  I had actually gone to the doc that month but ended up holding off because I was still too nervous to start.

I went in last April and intended to only start spiro - the most common default anti-androgen med - and talked with the doc about any and all side effects that would come about with that or if I started with that and Estradiol all at once.  He told me that I would feel some changes with the Spiro, but only recommended I be on that alone for a few months, since we should have one of the two hormones present in our bodies.  He then told me that I should feel mental changes within two weeks and that none of his patients - he practices out of an LGBT clinic in Boston and specializes in trans care - had developed physical changes until a couple of months in.

Essentially, he said that I would know that transitioning, at least to an extent, was right for me once the mental changes occurred.  He said that most people who intended to transition before starting HRT confirmed their decisions when their brain began to shift into a more female (if AMAB) or male (if AFAB) range of thought patterns, emotions, etc.  This occurred in enough time before physical changes that those who did not receive the hormones well - their mental state worsened, sometimes making them even less at home to themselves - that they could stop in time.

Yes, of course, YMMV, but it seems rare for people to develop irreversible changes of any sort before they sense that HRT is the right decision.  I found that it was my fear of the unknown and second guessing myself that was holding me back.  I ended up starting the Estradiol at the same time as Spiro, and I did feel the mental relief and euphoria within a couple of weeks, while physical changes didn't really start until a couple of months in.

Quote from: ds1987 on August 31, 2018, 03:22:48 PM
Essentially, he said that I would know that transitioning, at least to an extent, was right for me once the mental changes occurred.  He said that most people who intended to transition before starting HRT confirmed their decisions when their brain began to shift into a more female (if AMAB) or male (if AFAB) range of thought patterns, emotions, etc.  This occurred in enough time before physical changes that those who did not receive the hormones well - their mental state worsened, sometimes making them even less at home to themselves - that they could stop in time.

Yes, of course, YMMV, but it seems rare for people to develop irreversible changes of any sort before they sense that HRT is the right decision.  I found that it was my fear of the unknown and second guessing myself that was holding me back.  I ended up starting the Estradiol at the same time as Spiro, and I did feel the mental relief and euphoria within a couple of weeks, while physical changes didn't really start until a couple of months in.

Hello Heather and DS

I agree with your comments DS in that I certainly felt the mental benefit early. I have been on HRT 7 months and obviously most of us get the immediate "placebo" effect but even allowing for that and waiting 2 months, the fog had cleared and I felt a sense of peace. Shortly thereafter I knew I was on the "right fuel" and for life. At the start I was exploring - reasonably confident I needed HRT but not absolutely sure.

Just to be precise there was one physical benefit I noticed early which was softer and smoother skin.

I intend to publicly transition in 2019 as now I feel I am on the right road.

I wish you both happiness.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: heather3791 on August 31, 2018, 07:59:14 AM
But what about that person who is unsure and who may have second thoughts?

This is what therapists do. Today, they really have a good understanding of our condition and other conditions that may be similar. It is their expertise to help us discover what it is that is really causing us so much grief.

A quick chat with a therapist is not going to be beneficial to most people. We need to understand and accept ourselves as we are before we make any changes to our bodies.

Quote
"try HRT and see how you feel"

This sounds like an experimenting with drugs. You never know what undesirable side effects may occur. Yes, we do have some idea with medical drugs, but side effects are not 100%. Sometimes they cause problems and sometimes not.

I do not recommend experimenting with drugs. Know yourself and accept yourself first. Then use hormone therapy to help do what you need to do.

Thanks y'all for all of your great insightful feedback on this subject. As always I know I can always count on you to provide intelligent and well articulated answers. You are all very smart cookies!

Quote from: Lucca on August 31, 2018, 01:52:26 PM
Is that how it works? I didn't think that if your breasts grew due to weight gain, it sticks there even after you lose the weight.

Breast tissue is not fat. There are glands and ducts that are developed. You could drop down to 10% body fat and still have that breast tissue.

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I started HRT 3 years ago and I still have to live as a man (for family reasons). HRT is helping my dysphoria and makes me feel good. I have some breast but wide shoulders and man clothes nothing is really noticed and I never get any question.

Quote
This sounds like an experimenting with drugs. You never know what undesirable side effects may occur. Yes, we do have some idea with medical drugs, but side effects are not 100%. Sometimes they cause problems and sometimes not.

I do not recommend experimenting with drugs. Know yourself and accept yourself first. Then use hormone therapy to help do what you need to do.

I totally agree that we shouldn't be experimenting, though I have somewhat seen my entire medical transition as an experiment.  With first my doctor in MA, and now my Endocrinologist in WI, I have been doing what I see as "doctor-assisted self-medication."

The doctor in MA had more knowledge and a lot more experience with transgender medicine, but he told me that he often has people who think they might be suffering from gender dysphoria start with HRT to see if that alleviates it.  This is where his basis of understanding for people who knew they needed to transition vs discovered they were not supposed to.

So the first person who told me the "try it and see" method was a medical professional.

Quote from: StacyRenee on September 01, 2018, 08:21:15 AM
Breast tissue is not fat. There are glands and ducts that are developed. You could drop down to 10% body fat and still have that breast tissue.

I must challenge the statement of 10 % body fat for women.

This is typical:

Typical body fat amounts
Description Women   Men
Athletes   14–20%   6–13%
Fitness   21–24%   14–17%
Average   25–31%   18–24%
Obese   32%+   25%+

With less than 18% body fat some women stop having periods, as many athletic women can attest.

I effectively took a 'try HRT and see how you feel' approach myself, but it sounds like I was in a very different situation from you.  I'd known I had gender identity issues for over 20 years, and I'd been debating transitioning for over a decade, but I was afraid of how I would be accepted, and whether I would ever pass, and whether I would ever feel safe again knowing some of the hate out there in the world.  My dysphoria reached a point though where I was so miserable with my body and with my life as a guy that I was thinking about suicide on a daily basis, and years of therapy and multiple anti-depressants had done little to help.  I started my 'trial approach' with the outlook that I was completely open to immediately starting on a full transition path if that's what felt right for me, and regardless of what else happened, I didn't see how I could possibly feel any worse than I did already, so what did I have to lose?  Even if I decided later that transition wasn't for me, I was ok with the idea of living as a guy with small breasts, or being permanently sterile - given the state I was in, these were small things compared to the risk of leaving my dysphoria untreated.

One thing that might be helpful for you as it's a little lower risk (though not free of risk) is to try blockers alone or lower doses:  I was on testosterone blockers alone for a few weeks before starting estradiol, and the blockers alone made a noticeable improvement in my mental state, and I got further improvement from my initial low dose of estradiol.

Given my own life situation, I felt like 'try and see what happens' was my only option, and thankfully it's made a massive improvement in my life.  The only way I would ever recommend that approach to others though, is if you are fully aware of the potential consequences, and fully prepared to accept them.  If that's not where you are in your journey right now, then I'd suggest trying other things to see if they help - talk to support groups, talk with a therapist, try experimenting with clothing or voice or mannerisms in a safe space, try interacting anonymously with people online as yourself (text, and if you feel comfortable with it, voice), whatever you think would be helpful for you.

Some doctors do sort of the "try and see" approach.

My endocrinologist starts everyone who comes to him on a low dose. Low enough that the patient should experience the mental effects before too much physical change happens. He requires a therapist letter first and then just sits and talks with the patient.
If you have not had gynocamastia breast budding already then a couple of months on a low dose will just barely begin the budding growth. If you stop then, nothing should be very visable. If you already have budding then tissues will start to ache right away and grow.

Quote from: Lucca on August 31, 2018, 01:52:26 PM
Is that how it works? I didn't think that if your breasts grew due to weight gain, it sticks there even after you lose the weight.

Basically being overweight increases conversion of testosterone into estradiol so being very heavy tends to induce gynocamastia in men. The enzyme that changes T into E is produced in fat tissues in the body and a few others. Fatty tissues is a big one.

Quote from: Autrement on September 01, 2018, 09:55:19 AM
I started HRT 3 years ago and I still have to live as a man (for family reasons). HRT is helping my dysphoria and makes me feel good. I have some breast but wide shoulders and man clothes nothing is really noticed and I never get any question.

I have also been on HRT for a fairly long time (2 1/2 years). I also live as male outside home. Luckily for me I live alone so I simply live as female at home. It's enough for me. But I am one of the freaks here as I have grown pretty large noticeable breasts and they are permanent, no doubt. You must be careful. With me it has required several changes to my lifestyle. I can no longer wear certain shirts and I can never remove my shirt in a public setting for any occasion. Taking HRT "just to see how it feels" is really not a good idea. I wanted to become as much female as I could, but I had to keep it secret. It's getting tough to do that now. But I have accepted my lot in life.

In short, HRT made me feel great for a few weeks. The euphoria is over now but HRT has given me a nice feminine shape overall. I just have to be careful how I dress when I go out. A dude with (permanent) big boobs "gets the looks." Something to think about...

Quote from: Dani on September 02, 2018, 07:53:57 PM
I must challenge the statement of 10 % body fat for women.

This is typical:

Typical body fat amounts
Description Women   Men
Athletes   14–20%   6–13%
Fitness   21–24%   14–17%
Average   25–31%   18–24%
Obese   32%+   25%+

With less than 18% body fat some women stop having periods, as many athletic women can attest.

What about supermodels? Or fitness models and the like? Or anyone with anorexia or bulimia? I was making my point to the extreme. (Besides, I think your % for women is a bit skewed. Military specs only allowed 3-4% more for women.)

An excerpt from an online article:

AMY SPENCER
May 13, 2013 10:30 AM EDT

Jack Guy From Health magazine

When California-raised Jillian Michaels was 12, she weighed 175 pounds. After engaging in martial arts and working her way into a career as a personal trainer, the 5-foot-2 3/4-inch star got her weight down to around 117 with just 13% body fat.



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Quote from: Shellie Hart on September 03, 2018, 08:53:28 AM
I have also been on HRT for a fairly long time (2 1/2 years). I also live as male outside home. Luckily for me I live alone so I simply live as female at home. It's enough for me. But I am one of the freaks here as I have grown pretty large noticeable breasts and they are permanent, no doubt. You must be careful. With me it has required several changes to my lifestyle. I can no longer wear certain shirts and I can never remove my shirt in a public setting for any occasion. Taking HRT "just to see how it feels" is really not a good idea. I wanted to become as much female as I could, but I had to keep it secret. It's getting tough to do that now. But I have accepted my lot in life.

In short, HRT made me feel great for a few weeks. The euphoria is over now but HRT has given me a nice feminine shape overall. I just have to be careful how I dress when I go out. A dude with (permanent) big boobs "gets the looks." Something to think about...

I trialled HRT under medical supervision and a psychologist. I suspected it might help. I was suffering mentally. First I tried testosterone supplement to cure my desire to be a woman along with anxiety, unease and depression. It made my situation even worse .
  In therapy I dug deep and unearthed the drivers behind wanting to be a woman. MTF HRT brought rapid relief to the point of being happy just being me . That trial gave me the answers!

  Kirsten x [emoji126]

PS I love my b-cup boobs even though I hide them for work.

I always look for the good, and how to turn sticky situations into blessings.

Say you don't pass as a female, but are stuck with boobs, and have to go outside as a male with boobs.

Me, whenever I read about school shootings in the news, I panick, and feel unsafe. Deep down, I want to walk around with body armour, to keep me feeling safe.

But I have always been afraid to wear body armour, because it is not cool with what society wants. Society wants to make me an expendable, vunerable male, who obeys social norms.

But if I had boobs, and did not pass as a female and had to go out as male, I would now have a valid excuse for wearing body armour. When the fascist police pulled me over for wearing armour, I could simply take off my armour, and then it would be obvious, no questions asked, why I was wearing the armour. Seeing my boobs, the cops would just silently walk away, giving me a nod of reverence. My motto is, turn your lemons into lemonade.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 05, 2018, 06:34:36 AM
I trialled HRT under medical supervision and a psychologist. I suspected it might help. I was suffering mentally. First I tried testosterone supplement to cure my desire to be a woman along with anxiety, unease and depression. It made my situation even worse .
  In therapy I dug deep and unearthed the drivers behind wanting to be a woman. MTF HRT brought rapid relief to the point of being happy just being me . That trial gave me the answers!

  Kirsten x [emoji126]

PS I love my b-cup boobs even though I hide them for work.

It's weird in a way. Having these full C-cups gives me a type of comfort throughout the day when I am also hiding my breasts. My life (as a man outside home) is seriously dysfunctional (family, career, etc.) so being a woman at home gives me great relief. I can relax in ways that I could not before HRT (and before breasts). It just works for me... ;)

Quote from: Angelic on September 05, 2018, 09:50:09 AM

My motto is, turn your lemons into lemonade.

I think that's turning lemons into hand grenades! XD

Quote from: Shellie Hart on September 05, 2018, 10:13:18 AM
It's weird in a way. Having these full C-cups gives me a type of comfort throughout the day when I am also hiding my breasts. My life (as a man outside home) is seriously dysfunctional (family, career, etc.) so being a woman at home gives me great relief. I can relax in ways that I could not before HRT (and before breasts). It just works for me... ;)

I can relate to the comfort and relaxation. In a nutshell tits are great! Do you ever get tempted to present female in public Shellie?
             Kind regards, Kirsten.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 05, 2018, 01:52:48 PM
I can relate to the comfort and relaxation. In a nutshell tits are great! Do you ever get tempted to present female in public Shellie?
             Kind regards, Kirsten.

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No, I am never tempted to do that simply because I have a masculine face. I couldn't do it even if I wanted to. But I do very occasionally dress somewhat girly (tight pants, shirt, etc.). I get too many looks, though. So I keep it "real" when outside home. But these breasts are fun at all times -- during the day when they bounce constantly behind bulky shirts and at home when I live my true self and let them be free... ;)

I'm jealous - I would kill for c- cups. I'm praying for more development. You are lucky!
          Kirsten[emoji3317]


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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 05, 2018, 01:52:48 PM
I can relate to the comfort and relaxation. In a nutshell tits are great! Do you ever get tempted to present female in public Shellie?
             Kind regards, Kirsten.

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Thanks for being so open.   

For those of you that are not "out" to the world, but on full HRT and have had breast growth, how do you hide "it" during the day?   

This is my next fear...at home and work...would love the emotional and physical changes of estrogen, but don't want to be out (at least at this point).

Karen

Quote from: Karen on September 05, 2018, 03:51:15 PM
Thanks for being so open.   

For those of you that are not "out" to the world, but on full HRT and have had breast growth, how do you hide "it" during the day?   

This is my next fear...at home and work...would love the emotional and physical changes of estrogen, but don't want to be out (at least at this point).

Karen

I have answered this question in some older posts. Basically I just try to ignore what others are doing. They look and I am sure some want to ask questions. But I mostly wear bulky shirts when outside home. I just otherwise bounce along! ::)

At home I am naked a lot and let them be free as I have said. I just love the feelings and sensations of growing (heavy) breasts. Altogether I have a feminine look (from the neck down) and enjoy that part of my life when I am alone at home. Pretty simple really....

I wear a t-shirt bra day to day under my workshirt. This was not revealing initially but now things are starting to show. Plan b involves a sports bra that keeps everything a bit flatter. The last thing I want to do- though- is create a binding effect that hurts and might upset the shape of my growing breasts.
      I suspect someone will see down my top in the end anyway. Just playing by ear (and loving it!)
                        Yours truly, Kirsten[emoji126]

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I knew I was transgender since I was a 5 year old, but never understood it, took blackmarket hormones in my mid 20's, after my military contract was up, then quit due to finances and family. Started again at age 44(mental health/MD authorized), certain I would never go back, I"m going for male fail(live in a rough environment). How I hide my development, I use a widowmaker tshirt with a crewneck/vneck tshirt and a jacket at work, even when its blazing hot outside(feel I have to protect my girls) and my clothes drape over me very different now(curvy somewhat).
Did I doubt I was a tg/ts?, nope, its a gnawing feeling from way deep inside, since I was little boy that testosterone is doing its work and its just destroying my inner fabric of identity, I just denied it, it was just tearing me up, this testosterone.
The litmus test if your tg/ts is hrt, is what mental health professionals use, if your sex drive is killed, on estrogen and you fall off the hrt wagon, more than likely you may not be ts/tg.
I myself have been on hrt since late 2012(spironolactone since 2004/estrogen since 2012)and  and have inner serenity now, apparent secondary development or not, I have great inner peace with myself, even against rough and tumble turmoil of my environment, but still eyeing and craving more feminization(ffs/body mods), just feel way more vulnerable now.
Will I get grs/srs/ffs? Probably will, since my body is so female wired now since being on hrt on and off since 1995.

I don't know if this answers the question, but its been my experience and readings. Sorry if I went off a tangent.

Hello again Karen

You will know from my previous reply 8, that I am going public in 2019 and therefore I am now "private" with the occasional trip out en femme.

I am taking a couple of holidays/vacation in 2018 and I know I must hide my growing breasts. I usually go braless in the house for the same reason as Kirsten - to prevent any detrimental effect - but wear sports bra outside. I know I will need a larger jacket for my holidays to hide them. I have received "the long stare" but never any comments.

Hugs to all

Pamela

Quote from: Karen on September 05, 2018, 03:51:15 PM
For those of you that are not "out" to the world, but on full HRT and have had breast growth, how do you hide "it" during the day?   

I understand the potential for self consciousness, but you concerns likely have more to do with the SpotLight/Transparency Effect than being any sort of giveaway if the rest of your presentation is solidly masculine. I have been on a typical transition level HRT regimen for 9 years. The only comment I get from anyone about my 34B breasts when I go without a shirt is that I have "great pecs." That said, my female alter turns alot of heads when she wears a bikini at the beach.  With as common an additive as estrogen has become, and the general tendency of people to be overweight, more and more guys have Gynecomastia and manboobs.  The only person who would likely notice, or for that matter care about, your nipples is you.

I don't think you need to worry quite as much as you'd think.  Most of the development you get from HRT is much more gradual than that.  The emotional changes were honestly one of the first things I noticed.  After that, I noticed my skin getting softer.  Those aren't things that would be a big issue to the rest of the world.  I noticed my libido drop pretty quick and "morning wood" disappeared.  Again, nobody else is really going to notice that, but I remember being absolutely delighted.  If you have a wife/girlfriend/partner they might notice this change, but that's about as far as other people noticing is going to stretch.

If you're worried about general body shape or breasts or other changes that would make it impossible to pass as a dude, those all take more time.  I think my chest was still small enough to hide things for, say, a year or so on HRT.  There wasn't even enough boobage to be worth mentioning until, say, 3 years in.  Again, this is something a romantic partner might notice more than the general public or people might notice more if you go shirtless very often (do you go to the beach much?) but you still have time. 

As for me, I wanted to hurry up and get on HRT just because I was thinking, it helps people feel calmer and more at peace and I desperately wanted that.  Truth is, I transitioned because it was my bucket list; I was planning to commit suicide and I put it off so I could attempt transition.  So my situation feels a little different from a lot of people because I didn't really feel like I had much to lose.  So I get it.  There can be a lot to lose.  It can be scary.  But it's a fear that can be faced.

If you already have noticeabley large breasts as a male, how fast do they start growing from that point? Mine aren't way out of the ordinary for a man, but they're at the upper limit for "normal" male breast size proportionate to the rest of my body mass. Like, they already bounce around when running or walking down stairs, and I'm pretty sure they're in the B cup range; hard to say since the bras I've tried on don't fit well because I'm wider than most women with my breast size.

If I don't have as far to go to reach female-proportioned breasts, does that mean I would have less time before people would notice?

@Lucca
I am assuming you are not on HRT, but it is not clear if you are talking about actual breast development from gynecomastia or moobs from being overweight. In all cases the side effects of estrogen on the male body are unpredictable. 

Whether or not people might notice breast development has to do with proportion. You do not mention your weight/height, but no one questions the 34B breasts I have developed after 9 years on HRT on my 5'10" 146 pound frame when I go without a shirt. C-D cup breasts might cause awkward stares. On the other hand, I have a friend who is 6'4" 493 pounds with moobs in the DD range. No one questions his gender because of them.

And there is a big difference between someone noticing and actually commenting about what they see...

Quote from: TaraJo on September 07, 2018, 10:19:24 PM
I don't think you need to worry quite as much as you'd think.  Most of the development you get from HRT is much more gradual than that.  The emotional changes were honestly one of the first things I noticed.  After that, I noticed my skin getting softer.  Those aren't things that would be a big issue to the rest of the world.  I noticed my libido drop pretty quick and "morning wood" disappeared.  Again, nobody else is really going to notice that, but I remember being absolutely delighted.  If you have a wife/girlfriend/partner they might notice this change, but that's about as far as other people noticing is going to stretch.

If you're worried about general body shape or breasts or other changes that would make it impossible to pass as a dude, those all take more time.  I think my chest was still small enough to hide things for, say, a year or so on HRT.  There wasn't even enough boobage to be worth mentioning until, say, 3 years in.  Again, this is something a romantic partner might notice more than the general public or people might notice more if you go shirtless very often (do you go to the beach much?) but you still have time. 

As for me, I wanted to hurry up and get on HRT just because I was thinking, it helps people feel calmer and more at peace and I desperately wanted that.  Truth is, I transitioned because it was my bucket list; I was planning to commit suicide and I put it off so I could attempt transition.  So my situation feels a little different from a lot of people because I didn't really feel like I had much to lose.  So I get it.  There can be a lot to lose.  It can be scary.  But it's a fear that can be faced.

Thanks TaraJo

This helps.  My worry is body / breast changes.  I am not ready to transition yet and it can't impact my work.  Thus if I do estrogen, I want to be able to hide breast development for sometime. 

Thanks.

Karen

I did an 8-week low-dose exercise using E patches. This was enough to confirm the mental effects without any physical changes. It wasn't fun stopping after such a low dose though, beware. X

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I'm pre-HRT, and I have no idea if what I have would be classified as gynecomastia or not. While I'm not super skinny, I'm not overweight either, so I don't have the "man-boobs" that normally come with being overweight. I do also have fairly developed nipples that tend to become "erect" when I'm cold, which is something that women experience all the time, but I've never heard a man say they have.

You can look on a few plastic surgery websites to get an idea of how your growth compares to various band/cup sized.  Everyone's nipple get hard when they are cold. A man's penis also gets soft but I do not know know about a woman's clitoris.

Quote from: Megan. on September 08, 2018, 12:19:56 PM
I did an 8-week low-dose exercise using E patches. This was enough to confirm the mental effects without any physical changes. It wasn't fun stopping after such a low dose though, beware. X

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wasn't fun because of loss of perceived positive mental effects from being on low dose, or negative effects from stopping?

Quote from: Another Nikki on September 08, 2018, 02:21:48 PM
wasn't fun because of loss of perceived positive mental effects from being on low dose, or negative effects from stopping?

The former, Dysphoria returned (as expected). X

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Thanks.  I'm getting to ready to start low dose in the next 4-6 weeks with the hope it will allow me to think about something besides gender.

I will tell you the 2 main reasons I am afraid to take hormones.

1. Hormones make me feel like a kind and good person. Instead of a hollow jaded malevolent person. Why would I want to be so vunerable in a transphobic world? And even if there was no transphobia, other transpeople have been cruel and abusive to me. Why would I make myself so sensitive to that?

2. I am afraid of friends and family judging me or starting conflict. I am also afraid of horny dudes I'm not into, chasing me around.

Quote from: Karen on September 08, 2018, 10:57:41 AM
Thanks TaraJo

This helps.  My worry is body / breast changes.  I am not ready to transition yet and it can't impact my work.  Thus if I do estrogen, I want to be able to hide breast development for sometime. 

Thanks.

Karen

Well, I got good news for you:  Breast development can easily be hidden.  Not only will they not be these huge stripper tits overnight, but even when they are significant you can hide them with your clothing choices.  That's something to talk to trans men about, they do it all the time.  Generally, though, loose, baggy clothes help.  So do layers, like with a t-shirt and a button up shirt over it. 

I too am scared to start HRT, but at the same time I can't wait.  I want estrogen flowing through my body.  My therapist tells me to think of HRT as using the right fuel at last.  I have my HRT letter.  I'm just waiting to get on my employer's health insurance before I begin taking estrogen.


Danielle

My therapist was supposed to write me my HRT letter this past Friday, but he had to attend hospital so had to cancel our appointment.  I won't be home until the 26th anyway though, but I just wanted to have it in hand for my own comfort(like maybe reducing a bit of dysphoria in and of itself.)  I absolutely cannot wait to get back on E.  I remember the peace and calm I got from being on it and wish with all my heart I hadn't had to stop, but I'll restart when I get back home. :D

I started on the lowest doses of S/E, which gave me softer skin - and hot flashes.  Watch out for that. The lowest dose approach does make sense, I agree - for some it provides instant relief.  Maybe this pertains to those who have been living with dysphoria for a long time; I was exploring who I was, having only recently stumbled on the trans aspect of myself.

Mental changes only really showed up after about 6 months, when my T crashed. Perhaps more Spiro would have done that sooner.  From the beginning I wanted boobs, though. Boobs rock!

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Well after being on a blood pressure drug and a proton pump inhibitor for years, both of which have a documented side effect of causing gynecomastia in a subset of men, and having a diagnosis of GD,  both lead me to decide it was time to transition.

I've always found male underwear to be hot, uncomfortable, and irritating to my skin if I'm in a sweating situation.  So wearing an undershirt was out of the question.

When I realized my nipples were standing at attention, pretty much all the time, I bought bralets, sports bras, and camesoles.  My breasts still show but at least my nipples are now decently covered, and the thinner & softer fabric along with freedom I have around my shoulders is so comfortable for me.  It's heaven.

So I changed out the bottom intimate wear also.  I've also got appointments scheduled with a gender therapist, and identified where I can start hrt based on informed consent.

After all these years of suffering suppression from the male body I unfortunately was born into, I'm looking forward to the journey

Kate


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Your experience mirrors mine.  I tried to testosterone up and get rid of my problem.  That failed pretty miserably.  It might be a euphoric response that is not based on the HRT but I think it has.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 05, 2018, 06:34:36 AM
I trialled HRT under medical supervision and a psychologist. I suspected it might help. I was suffering mentally. First I tried testosterone supplement to cure my desire to be a woman along with anxiety, unease and depression. It made my situation even worse .
  In therapy I dug deep and unearthed the drivers behind wanting to be a woman. MTF HRT brought rapid relief to the point of being happy just being me . That trial gave me the answers!

  Kirsten x [emoji126]

PS I love my b-cup boobs even though I hide them for work.

Hi all. 

I have been on AA for 2 months and doing so much better.  Much less anxious and a much clearer mind.  My T dropped to almost zero very quickly.

Can anyone who started with AA and then went to add estrogen speak to the incremental emotional impact of estrogen? 

Thanks

Karen

Hi Karen,

I started on AA and very low dose E patch that had no effect, I felt a lot calmer but weak as I had no T or E in my system, once E was upped to a higher level the energy came back and emotions levelled out and my mind cleared like never before. While I don't think there is an instant that feels better, looking back after a month or so on E you can definitely notice and feel differences, I think I described it at the time as running on the right fuel for the first time in my life.

Good luck with your next step,!enjoy the ride.

Hugs

Nicole

Quote from: Karen on September 25, 2018, 01:08:09 AM
I have been on AA for 2 months and doing so much better.  Much less anxious and a much clearer mind.  My T dropped to almost zero very quickly.

Can anyone who started with AA and then went to add estrogen speak to the incremental emotional impact of estrogen? 

So a bit of a disclaimer here:  I suffered through pretty awful dysphoria for over 2 decades before I started transitioning, and despite being in my early 30s when I started, I've been told by several folks that I'm getting better than average results from HRT, so your mileage may vary.

I was only on AA for about a month before adding estrogen.  The AA alone cut down on my brain fog a fair bit, made me feel somewhat more present, and boosted my mood a little.  I also had significantly more energy on the AA than before, which is pretty counter intuitive, but I'm guessing it was from the mental changes.

In my case, adding the estrogen was huge, even at a 1/4-1/2 transition dose:  within a few days I felt vastly more 'present' and aware of myself and the world around me than I did on the AA alone.  My mood was significantly better and I started having good days instead of tolerable days for the first time in decades. :)

At around 2 weeks on estrogen, the way I experienced attraction and romantic feelings started changing - I always used to have a massive disconnect between my mind and body in that area and pretty much any kind of romantic thoughts used to make me feel frustrated, conflicted, confused, and just generally awful.  After a couple weeks on estrogen though, things synced up between my mind and body, and now being attracted to someone or having someone flirt with me actually feels really good! ;D

By around 3-4 weeks I felt more emotional and more expressive - I was varying my voice pitch more when speaking, using more feminine gestures, etc. without really thinking about it.  I don't think the hormones directly caused that so much as made me feel good enough that I just started acting like myself instead of hiding my feelings away from the world.

If you're worried about breast growth or other visible changes though, FYI I've started getting a decent bit of male fail at almost 5 months in, and the first month was low dose.  I do have almost full B cups at this point, and even with a fitted undershirt and 2-3 thick layers that are at least 2 sizes too big, they're still noticeable if anyone really looks; between their overall shape and me not being very muscular, they don't really pass as either pecs or man boobs either. ::)  I've had long hair for a few years and was never read as female from that alone, but now with my growing girls and the other changes to skin, hair, muscle, fat distribution, etc. it's enough to make a fair number of people question my gender.  Finally the people around me get a taste of how I felt for so long! :D

One thing that might help you on hiding the changes though is that because the change is so gradual, people who have known you before and who see you very often (like coworkers) are less likely to notice how different you look than strangers are.

Good luck, and I hope you find a way forward that's right for you!

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 05, 2018, 03:48:49 PM
I'm jealous - I would kill for c- cups. I'm praying for more development. You are lucky!
          Kirsten[emoji3317]


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I'd kill for B cups or to even properly fill a good A cup bra.

Quote from: Karen on September 08, 2018, 10:57:41 AM
Thanks TaraJo

This helps.  My worry is body / breast changes.  I am not ready to transition yet and it can't impact my work.  Thus if I do estrogen, I want to be able to hide breast development for sometime. 

Thanks.

Karen

Don't worry, you'll still be able to hide them. 

Early development is the only part you have to watch out for and even then, you need to be more concerned with tenderness and sensitivity than visibility.  After just a few months, you hit a point where your chest starts to get a little sore and then everything your chest hits will be REALLY painful.  That being said, this can still be dealt with, just be ready for it.

After that, your chest won't get so big you won't be able to hide things.  Lose shirts, layers, sports bras, those will all keep them hidden.  There are plenty of ways to hide boobs; if there weren't, transmen would be absolutely screwed.

I've decided to go this route. I've started my own thread here; https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,241441.0.html

Quote from: Lisa on September 25, 2018, 03:06:10 AMI always used to have a massive disconnect between my mind and body in that area and pretty much any kind of romantic thoughts used to make me feel frustrated, conflicted, confused, and just generally awful.  After a couple weeks on estrogen though, things synced up between my mind and body, and now being attracted to someone or having someone flirt with me actually feels really good! ;D

Yeah same here. Except the problem is I don't look like a female. So even if my mind feels female I still feel romantically incompatible. Because I know my body is still male.

The other thing about female hormones is it either makes me feel high and female. Or does nothing and I still feel miserable and male. But the problem is when I stop the hormones I feel even worse than before. So it feels like an addiction. Although me living as a guy has made me more insane and suicidal. So I might not have a choice because living as a guy is getting me nowhere except extremely frustrated and hopeless.

I expect I'll be finding out how HRT feels soon.  My doctor is going to refer me to an endocrinologist.  Hopefully, I'll get decent breast growth.  Looking forward to it.

Quote from: Dani on September 01, 2018, 07:57:56 AM
This sounds like an experimenting with drugs. You never know what undesirable side effects may occur. Yes, we do have some idea with medical drugs, but side effects are not 100%. Sometimes they cause problems and sometimes not.

I do not recommend experimenting with drugs. Know yourself and accept yourself first. Then use hormone therapy to help do what you need to do.

I know it sounds strange but that is how my therapist started me. She told me if you do not feel right taking the hormones stop and we can reassess where that leaves me. For me HRT had a calming effect and I didn't have a sense of dread other then what I was going to say to come out at work and with my family.

To a limited extent HRT for no more then 30 days could be considered a pressure valve release to see what the proper course of action is.

Although things may have changed in the last 8 years so my information might be a little out of date.

Quote from: NatalieRene on November 10, 2018, 02:19:46 PM
I know it sounds strange but that is how my therapist started me. She told me if you do not feel right taking the hormones stop and we can reassess where that leaves me. For me HRT had a calming effect and I didn't have a sense of dread other then what I was going to say to come out at work and with my family.

To a limited extent HRT for no more then 30 days could be considered a pressure valve release to see what the proper course of action is.

Although things may have changed in the last 8 years so my information might be a little out of date.

In that case, what is your opinion of this. The hormones either make me feel high, or exactly the same. But when I stop taking hormones I feel withdrawal effects and start to go crazy.

Quote from: Angelic on November 10, 2018, 02:33:47 PM
In that case, what is your opinion of this. The hormones either make me feel high, or exactly the same. But when I stop taking hormones I feel withdrawal effects and start to go crazy.

I couldn't comment about the feeling of being high. I've never had any drugs.

What I can say is estrodiol has a calming effect on me. It doesn't mean I don't get upset but I'm not nearly as volatile.

Quote from: NatalieRene on November 10, 2018, 09:38:05 PM
I couldn't comment about the feeling of being high. I've never had any drugs.

What I can say is estrodiol has a calming effect on me. It doesn't mean I don't get upset but I'm not nearly as volatile.

When I get high off them I get a calming effect. But in the morning I feel super hyper and full of energy. Which I guess is better than my mornings where I am depressed and not wanting to live.

As for the volatile thing. With me its the opposite. I am always volatile. But when I'm on hormones I get more volatile that usual. Because I feel like an aristocrat trying to enjoy my surroundings. And I hate when voices that sound like masculine peasants interrupt my meditative state and interfere with my buzz.

My main concern is getting addicted. I don't like the idea of having to be on pills for the rest of my life. Because what if I am hormones for ten years. And then some politician bans hormones. Then I will go insane because I am dependent on the drugs.

Quote from: Angelic on November 11, 2018, 12:44:06 PM
When I get high off them I get a calming effect. But in the morning I feel super hyper and full of energy. Which I guess is better than my mornings where I am depressed and not wanting to live.

As for the volatile thing. With me its the opposite. I am always volatile. But when I'm on hormones I get more volatile that usual. Because I feel like an aristocrat trying to enjoy my surroundings. And I hate when voices that sound like masculine peasants interrupt my meditative state and interfere with my buzz.

My main concern is getting addicted. I don't like the idea of having to be on pills for the rest of my life. Because what if I am hormones for ten years. And then some politician bans hormones. Then I will go insane because I am dependent on the drugs.

It's not like that. Hormones are not addictive and the politicians are never going to ban the pills, patches or shots. Cis females sometimes take estrogen supplements because of their own illnesses. Besides if things got that bad here I'd expatriate to Canada or the UK if they would be kind enough to have me and offer them and their companies my computer science knowledge.

That said you will always have to be on HRT. Your body does not produce estrogen. If you want to maintain a feminine look you have to buy the pills, patches or shots. It sucks and Inhate being dependent on them but that is how it is.

Quote from: NatalieRene on November 11, 2018, 01:48:24 PM
It's not like that. Hormones are not addictive and the politicians are never going to ban the pills, patches or shots. Cis females sometimes take estrogen supplements because of their own illnesses. Besides if things got that bad here I'd expatriate to Canada or the UK if they would be kind enough to have me and offer them and their companies my computer science knowledge.

That said you will always have to be on HRT. Your body does not produce estrogen. If you want to maintain a feminine look you have to buy the pills, patches or shots. It sucks and Inhate being dependent on them but that is how it is.

It's not so simple. I have a fragile mind. Often I feel lazy and demotivated like I am not really a person. Like I am falling between the cracks of reality and not really here. I have never fully isolated what fractured my mind. I don't think it was the estrogen, because when I am on estrogen I feel less depressed. But who knows.

Many years ago I took a bunch of feminizing herbals. They did not make me depressed inherently. But seeing that my face was still stuck being male I got depressed. Like that there was no hope and nothing would transform me. Then I took estrogen. Mentally I felt more positive like I could appreciate life more. But then I started taking spiro. And then I started to feel mentally strange. I have watched a seminar made by a transwoman. She warns that spiro can cause mental illness and to take something else.

Still I do not know if it was the spiro. Because around that time I was in a mental hospital. And they put me on a medication that damaged my mind. Made me feel strange and not like a person. And its been years since I was on hormones. And I've had a strong sex drive, so I'm guessing I had testosterone. And yet still not happy, depressed and not feeling like a person. What it could be is not getting enough vitamins. Maybe I need to eat more vitamins. Or maybe my heart is broken after so many rejections, and that is what fractured my mind. Still one other option, maybe too much computer time and being in the city and feeling frustrations. So too much toxins in me. Who knows. For all I know it could be from having sex with a dude I wasn't attracted to in desperation. Sort of like raping and damaging my mind. But I have this kind of ghost psychosis where I feel like I'm detached from reality and incapable of doing anything.

Anyway my point is that my body and mind is fragile. Who knows what effects HRT could have on it long term. But being a man seems like a dead end road, I feel unable to appreciate life living as a man.