Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi

I understand that it is better to have been on hormones for a good while before considering FFS but how long? Do hormones really make that much difference to the face. I am thinking that nose jobs are ok to go ahead with since that's mainly a bone thing.

BB

Willow

Greetings,

Here is what it says in the SOC about this surgery:

Other surgeries that may be performed to assist feminization include: reduction thyroid chondroplasty, suction-assisted lipoplasty of the waist, rhinoplasty, facial bone reduction, face-lift, and blephoroplasty. These do not require letters of recommendation from mental health professionals as does genital reconstruction therapy.

I have seen a wide variance in the amounts of time between different people who are on HRT and their FSS (if they choose to get it at all). I know some who won't go full-time until they've had FFS, other's only after being on HRT for a while. It's more a matter of how masculine one's face looks before hand, so each person really needs to decide what is right for themselves.

The thing about HRT is that it will not affect your bone structure if your bones are already fused...something that happens in the teen years; HRT does change the fat distribution of one's face and does make one's face look more feminine. The affects of HRT can and often do vary widely from one person to the next; genetics seem to play a large part in just how sensitive a persons body is to HRT.

Just be aware of the sticker shock with FFS, plan on a minimum of $20,000 and a lot of people spend more...$25,000 isn't uncommon...

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

It is cheaper and better to do everything at once. Two years will give a good indicator of what hormones will do for your face. The younger the better. Breasts can and curves can take 5 years and do better after SRS.

I think the normal recommendation is 18-24 months minimum depending on your hrt regime and age so your face has had the time to adjust (as by my physician), but you might talk with your physician, if they have experience with transpeople. I agree, all at once is the best, but if you don't have that kind of money $~20K US without major bone work and upwards if bonework, but piecemeal may work if it fits your long range budget easier. It doesn't hurt to do some homework with some trans-experience ffs surgeons for better information who might provide the procedures that can be done without waiting and helps your appearance for living, eg. trachea shave, nose job. Some post-op transwomen have done this to get by and then opted for more complete ffs later in life.

Good luck.

--Susan--

I was priced at under $15 k by Leis.  Part of the very high cost of FFS is the perception (but not reality) that FFS can only be done by the big three (O, Z, Spiegel).  The truth is even if you stay in the US the price drops considerably if you realize these are not the only doctors who can do this surgery, and they some highly qualified and experienced doctors who are considerably cheaper.  Me Choosing Leis over Spiegel is going to save me thousands of dollars.  Ironically Leis has more experience then Spiegel, but he does not market himself the same way.
I am giving HRT 15-18 Months. 
The thing is if you need bone work there is no escaping it and it does not matter when you go.  If your nose, forehead or jawline need to change...they still need to change.

I certainly can't afford to have it done in the UK, so was considering going to Thailand for all my surgeries. They do package deals there and have a good reputation.

http://www.chet-plasticsurgery.com/price.html (http://www.chet-plasticsurgery.com/price.html)

Even so, I do agree that it would be better to wait and get it all done at once. I wonder how much you could reasonably do in one sitting(lying down of course).

BB

Willow

I HIGHLY suggest you check out Dr. Leis.  Those prices for Dr. Chet are considerably higher then what I was told by Dr. Leis.  Save for a rhinoplasty, Leis is cheaper every procedure.  In fact Dr. Chet is not that much cheaper then Spiegel.  It also seems to be he is adding on cost for scalp advance and brow lift, which neither Leis nor Spiegel do.  I will PM you with information.  He is in Philly. 

I'd give it at least 18 months, I've been on 'mones 16 months now and my face is still changing.

Hiya

Thanks for the advice and information. I will wait and see how things develop though I think I may still go for a nose job and face lift. At 47 I'm veginning to droop a little.

BB

Willow

Quote from: Willowitch on January 06, 2008, 03:19:12 AM
Hiya

Thanks for the advice and information. I will wait and see how things develop though I think I may still go for a nose job and face lift. At 47 I'm veginning to droop a little.


Well, i will tell you a few things based on my experience. Of course i am much younger than you.On the other hand you look fantastic no matter how old you are.In the photo you look pretty feminime. When i started hormones i was saving money for FFS because going stealth was the only option for me. However 16-20 months later, MIRACLE. people started asking if i had plastic surgery . Look what happened.During taking hormones i lost lots of weight, so my face looked smaller. On the other hand the fat distribution changed in my face and my cheeks looked fatter and round.As a result my nose looked very small. My hair became very thick because of hormones, as a result the forehead (with a nice haircut-bangs) looked as if it was of a natal woman.HORMONES WORKED FOR ME!!!!.

Wait 2 years with a FULL hormone regimen.Talk to your doctor.Then if you still feel uncomfortable go for it.However, in yor shoes i would have the srs first.You are more than passable:)

Quote from: Willowitch on January 04, 2008, 03:56:51 PM
Hi

I understand that it is better to have been on hormones for a good while before considering FFS but how long? Do hormones really make that much difference to the face. I am thinking that nose jobs are ok to go ahead with since that's mainly a bone thing.

BB

Willow

To be honest they don't, unless you are about 12 and haven't yet matured into an adult. In some cases they might help with a little more fat in the face and give a more softening appearance, but hormones will not change what someone looks like or their bone structure.

I'm going to have mine almost at the 12 month mark. I'm 38 and going FT right after FFS. That will be in September probably, but could be anywhere from August - October. I will be done with electro, speech therapy by the time I get FFS and go full time :) Meghan

The nose won't change no matter how long you do HRT, so that's the one you can safely do (and I did). The brow bossing, becomes less noticeable with facial fats and if your younger (when your older, because of gravity and creasing above them, they are more visible).

If you've got substantial eyelid ptosis (droopy eyelids) and the brow bossing shelf comes well above the eye (usually defined as type III, but even other types could be that way even with type I-II if your brow bossing is very close to the eye (my case)), no amount of HRT will change anything, because the soft tissue is loose and even if you get fat underneath, it won't pull it back. In this case, doing it right away.

I did mine, brow bossing and nose, at around 6 months and its turned out very fine as you
can see on my avatar.

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 06, 2008, 09:17:28 AM
I'm going to have mine almost at the 12 month mark. I'm 38 and going FT right after FFS. That will be in September probably, but could be anywhere from August - October. I will be done with electro, speech therapy by the time I get FFS and go full time :) Meghan

In the U.K we wouldn't be able to get a referral for FFS before RLE which in a way is right. As you should be able to live a RLE before FFS....

Why would you need a referral for FFS?
No surgeon asks for it that I know of.
At most, they'll talk
to you a sec to see if your a raving lunatic.
If all UK surgeons balks (doubtfull),
just go the Netherlands, belgium, Germany, Ireland, whatever.

All the mones in the world didn't do anything to my face.  FFS was the answer for me.

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 09:39:05 PM

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 06, 2008, 09:17:28 AM
I'm going to have mine almost at the 12 month mark. I'm 38 and going FT right after FFS. That will be in September probably, but could be anywhere from August - October. I will be done with electro, speech therapy by the time I get FFS and go full time :) Meghan

In the U.K we wouldn't be able to get a referral for FFS before RLE which in a way is right. As you should be able to live a RLE before FFS....

Wow Burleigh, thanks, I appreciate that. So I should be able to live RLE before FFS, care to explain? I COULD go for a few years RLE without FFS, but why would I if I didn't have to? To make myself go through some hardships so I can feel somehow better about transition? I'm feeling good about my transition. I have many real life friends who have done it the same way I'm doing it and they are doing fine right now.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the UK health system at all because there's a lot to admire about it. But, I (and this could just be me, who knows, maybe I am insane for thinking this) am grateful that I'm able to follow SOC and get things done at the pace I feel comfortable with, which is slow and methodical. Some people feel more comfortable getting FFS before FT and I'm one of those people. That's just me though. I respect the fact that your opinion differs from mine Burleigh, but really, who are we kidding here? I'm excited about my FFS, could go full time today if I wanted to, I'm out to EVERYONE that I care about, friends, work, family etc. I'm 100% comfortable with what I'm doing. FFS will help me live the life I want to lead. That's just me, again. Just opinions, we all have them. Just don't forget that, ok? Meghan

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 09:39:05 PM

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 06, 2008, 09:17:28 AM
I'm going to have mine almost at the 12 month mark. I'm 38 and going FT right after FFS. That will be in September probably, but could be anywhere from August - October. I will be done with electro, speech therapy by the time I get FFS and go full time :) Meghan

In the U.K we wouldn't be able to get a referral for FFS before RLE which in a way is right. As you should be able to live a RLE before FFS....

This is completely off base as many people cannot go RLE with HRT and FFS.  England has a messed up system that is more harmful then helpful to trans people to begin with, and you are a victim of these insane requirements, like RLE for HRT which are done more to keep people from transitioning and cause more harm then is helpful.

Taking how essential FFS for many to pass, requiring a RLE is insane.  FFS is pretty easy to schedule.  You call a doctor, set up a consultation, set up an appointment for surgery.  You can get it any time.  No requirements, as it should be. 

Quote from: Amy T. on January 07, 2008, 11:13:52 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 09:39:05 PM

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 06, 2008, 09:17:28 AM
I'm going to have mine almost at the 12 month mark. I'm 38 and going FT right after FFS. That will be in September probably, but could be anywhere from August - October. I will be done with electro, speech therapy by the time I get FFS and go full time :) Meghan

In the U.K we wouldn't be able to get a referral for FFS before RLE which in a way is right. As you should be able to live a RLE before FFS....

This is completely off base as many people cannot go RLE with HRT and FFS.  England has a messed up system that is more harmful then helpful to trans people to begin with, and you are a victim of these insane requirements, like RLE for HRT which are done more to keep people from transitioning and cause more harm then is helpful.

Taking how essential FFS for many to pass, requiring a RLE is insane.  FFS is pretty easy to schedule.  You call a doctor, set up a consultation, set up an appointment for surgery.  You can get it any time.  No requirements, as it should be. 

I totally agree Amy. In England the NHS do expect some kind of consistant RLE before they will consider prescribing HRT. Which is why I went private in 2003 in order to start on hormones. The NHS gender clinic system also forbid and discard FFS as a treatment even though it's in the HBSOC. Most of (if not all) our treatment in the U.K is only accessed through private treatment (especially FFS and breast augmentation) and the NHS only seem to work in a 'mental health' and 'psychiatric' capacity. Patients are humiliated and made to feel like they are worthless and some even attempt suicide because they have no access to treatment.

The English NHS system for treating transsexuals has a terrible reputation and many of us have long campaigned to the medical unions, Healthcare Commission and govenment for vast changes in the system.

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 08:11:41 AM


To be honest they don't, unless you are about 12 and haven't yet matured into an adult. In some cases they might help with a little more fat in the face and give a more softening appearance, but hormones will not change what someone looks like or their bone structure.

You seem to constnatly push this attitude, but i could post now a pre shot and a post shot of me... only one year of hrt... and i dont even look like my own sister now... im 20 years old... not 12... hrt CAN do a lot, or it can do nothing, genetics play a big role.
then again, not being stick thin also helps... so many transwomen become model thin, and wonder why they dont develop curves, or breasts, or have much facial change...
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on January 12, 2008, 06:16:50 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 08:11:41 AM


To be honest they don't, unless you are about 12 and haven't yet matured into an adult. In some cases they might help with a little more fat in the face and give a more softening appearance, but hormones will not change what someone looks like or their bone structure.

You seem to constanatly push this attitude, but i could post now a pre shot and a post shot of me... only one year of hrt... and i dont even look like my own sister now... im 20 years old... not 12... hrt CAN do a lot, or it can do nothing, genetics play a big role.
then again, not being stick thin also helps... so many transwomen become model thin, and wonder why they dont develop curves, or breasts, or have much facial change...
R >:D

I agree that it varies with individuals on how much female fat re-distribution in the facial area they might get. You are one of the youngest people on the forum, so you have a better chance than most.

Some transsexuals do look very thin and cannot put weight on in the right places. I have a close TS friend who has this problem and she eats like a horse! but her legs are thin and boney and she looks anorexic. So it's not always the individuals choice on how they look.


Also bodyshape is another factor, if you are previously endomophic in bodyshape that also helps...

i just dont seem to be able to loose weight, or gain ><
R :police:

Me either, stuck at 11 stone.

Quote from: Mawd on January 12, 2008, 12:05:30 PM
Me either, stuck at 11 stone.

Recently my legs are getting fatter (which is good news) and my weight has gone up.

thats the first and probably last time ive ever heard a woman happy she gained weight!
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on January 16, 2008, 05:59:10 AM
thats the first and probably last time ive ever heard a woman happy she gained weight!
R :police:

Yes, because that is what I'm trying to achieve, female fat distribution. I need to put more weight on my legs, face, hips and butt. It is the only way to get a female shape. I'm trying to pile on the weight and then work on the areas that need to lose weight i.e the waist. But in order to get the right fat distribution I need to gain weight first. I don't want to be some skinny bony TS with no shape at all.

Don't gain weight first!!!
that just doesn't work,
especially if your estrogen levels
aren't high and you've got
weight in the middle! Good god.
That's all I'm going to say,
since I've said my advice already
and its not heeded.

skinny boney? wellcome to model land :P
and trust me, youd rather be skinny than some manbelly toting ->-bleeped-<-...
R :police:

Yeah, man belly aint a good look, but be anoresic (not really).
But a healthy thin weight is best for passing and for you health.

best thing? healthy diet, DO NOT STARVE YOURSELF, and shaping aerobics.... a short daily workout WILL get your figure blossuming nicely...
so does cycling...
running doesnt work on the abs and belly... aerobics, twisting crunches, etc do wonders... manage your physical fittness, and your body will show it...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on January 16, 2008, 01:51:25 PM
skinny boney? wellcome to model land :P
and trust me, youd rather be skinny than some manbelly toting ->-bleeped-<-...
R :police:

........Believe me I'd rather be curvy U.K 12 - 14 than a stick with no shape....

problem with gaining weight: wont go where you want it, got to scuplt what you have
:P

But Berleigh, if you;ve got fat in the middle and smallish breasts, you've got curves,
but they're not the typical female ones... What's the point of those curves!

Quote from: Keira on January 16, 2008, 10:12:35 PM
But Berleigh, if you;ve got fat in the middle and smallish breasts, you've got curves,
but they're not the typical female ones... What's the point of those curves!

Keira , you still need to put on weight in order to get a reasonable size butt and upper legs. The look you like to have is too skinny for me and I prefer to go for a more curvy look.

Rachael, your new profile pic is awesome and you look very natural. Whatever your doing keep doing it!

My waist is 26.5 inch and my hips 37, my bust 36, bellow my bust its 30.5,
that's more curvy than 98% of women my age. So hey, don't get it
the stick thing. Your projecting a lot here.
Can pinch 1/3 inch of fat on my calf 2/3 inch on my inner thigh and buttocks.
Can't call that stick thin, can we?
I store almost no fat in my upper body, except breast and face.
Which is the expected result from estrogen.

I've seen hundreds of TS who are not stick thin during my 15 years in contact
with the montreal community.

In fact, I think I've only seen about 5 really thin TS and all started
to transition in their late 50's (so there may be underlying reasons for their
thinnes). Most of those really thin ones not only have little fat, they've got little muscles too,
creating a very bad mix.

The shape I want is in shape young women,
which ARE thinner, HAVE muscles AND have curves.
I like this combo, it produces a hot attractive mix for myself and
any other who wants it.

Thanks Berligh, just a random shot to see a new hairstyle, guess it suits me ^_^
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on January 17, 2008, 06:29:20 AM
Thanks Berligh, just a random shot to see a new hairstyle, guess it suits me ^_^
R :police:

just a matter of interest what medication are you on........because it's working!

Quote from: Rachael on January 12, 2008, 06:16:50 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 08:11:41 AM


To be honest they don't, unless you are about 12 and haven't yet matured into an adult. In some cases they might help with a little more fat in the face and give a more softening appearance, but hormones will not change what someone looks like or their bone structure.

You seem to constnatly push this attitude, but i could post now a pre shot and a post shot of me... only one year of hrt... and i dont even look like my own sister now... im 20 years old... not 12... hrt CAN do a lot, or it can do nothing, genetics play a big role.
then again, not being stick thin also helps... so many transwomen become model thin, and wonder why they dont develop curves, or breasts, or have much facial change...
R >:D

Well, I'm 30 and hrt made a HUGE difference with me.  On Saturday, I will have been on it for 2 years exactly.  However, before I started HRT, I was dead certain I would need every FFS surgery available, but at this point not only do I not need to spend even a penny on FFS, I have absolutely zero problems passing as a GG around anybody including other TS (unless the person has actually known me during the past couple years...and even then sometimes).  So, as if passing perfectly wasn't good enough (which I've done for the past year and a half), I eventually started being called beautiful and sexy and being hit on (many, many times every day).

Ok, I'm not trying to brag or anything.  It's just that I'm just proud, confident, happy, and have high self esteem. The point is I went through an incredible transformation on hrt that I could never have fathomed was even possible before I started.  I would strongly recommend waiting until you have been on HRT for 2-3 years before you decide if you even need it.

I even had an FFS consultation about 9 months ago with Dr. O and he quoted me about $25K (which is on the low end of his scale for the works).  However, rather than letting it kill my self confidence, I just decided to look at it as how much money I'm saving by not having FFS.  Also, if you're going to compare yourself to other women, please do yourself a favor and look at other women your own age rather than ones much younger than you.  It took me a while to realize I was making that mistake, but that was because I still felt like a teenager inside.

Anyhow, good luck and sorry for the length of the post.  I just haven't posted much in a while. :P

Quote from: Melissa on January 30, 2008, 05:06:27 PM

Quote from: Rachael on January 12, 2008, 06:16:50 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 08:11:41 AM


To be honest they don't, unless you are about 12 and haven't yet matured into an adult. In some cases they might help with a little more fat in the face and give a more softening appearance, but hormones will not change what someone looks like or their bone structure.

You seem to constnatly push this attitude, but i could post now a pre shot and a post shot of me... only one year of hrt... and i dont even look like my own sister now... im 20 years old... not 12... hrt CAN do a lot, or it can do nothing, genetics play a big role.
then again, not being stick thin also helps... so many transwomen become model thin, and wonder why they dont develop curves, or breasts, or have much facial change...
R >:D

Well, I'm 30 and hrt made a HUGE difference with me.  On Saturday, I will have been on it for 2 years exactly.  However, before I started HRT, I was dead certain I would need every FFS surgery available, but at this point not only do I not need to spend even a penny on FFS, I have absolutely zero problems passing as a GG around anybody including other TS (unless the person has actually known me during the past couple years...and even then sometimes).  So, as if passing perfectly wasn't good enough (which I've done for the past year and a half), I eventually started being called beautiful and sexy and being hit on (many, many times every day).

Ok, I'm not trying to brag or anything.  It's just that I'm just proud, confident, happy, and have high self esteem. The point is I went through an incredible transformation on hrt that I could never have fathomed was even possible before I started.  I would strongly recommend waiting until you have been on HRT for 2-3 years before you decide if you even need it.

I even had an FFS consultation about 9 months ago with Dr. O and he quoted me about $25K (which is on the low end of his scale for the works).  However, rather than letting it kill my self confidence, I just decided to look at it as how much money I'm saving by not having FFS.  Also, if you're going to compare yourself to other women, please do yourself a favor and look at other women your own age rather than ones much younger than you.  It took me a while to realize I was making that mistake, but that was because I still felt like a teenager inside.

Anyhow, good luck and sorry for the length of the post.  I just haven't posted much in a while. :P

kewl- just a tip for all

Keep the dosage consistent- get levels checked routinely by doc, eat healthy, don't overeat- eat normal! and most of all have FAITH!

Berleigh: Just a low level topup of oestrogen... since stopping T shots it turns out ive reversed a lot of the damage done. So i dont look too bad imo... I wouldnt mind trying progesterone sometime as an accelerant lol :laugh:
R >:D

^ I don't think there's nothing wrong in trying to experiment with other HRT techniques- just ask your doc to see if it will give better results because it may...

Quote from: Rachael on January 30, 2008, 10:25:13 PM
Berleigh: Just a low level topup of oestrogen... since stopping T shots it turns out ive reversed a lot of the damage done. So i dont look too bad imo... I wouldnt mind trying progesterone sometime as an accelerant lol :laugh:
R >:D

Why on earth were you on T shots?

...as for progesterone I've found that it doesn't make any difference...

um... the whole IS kettle of fish... the one i KNOW you know.
Parents did it during my teens while they had power over me to 'cure' this little problem. (the is not ts stuff) as i wasnt producing t myself it seems. :(
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 05:29:13 AM
um... the whole IS kettle of fish... the one i KNOW you know.
Parents did it during my teens while they had power over me to 'cure' this little problem. (the is not ts stuff) as i wasnt producing t myself it seems. :(
R >:D

I was very feminine physically as a teen but my parents didn't ever try and control or change me in any way. They also never tried to stop the way I dressed or wore my hair......I suppose I was very lucky in that respect.

just a bit
you really dont know HOW...
R
:-\

Quote from: Rachael on February 04, 2008, 03:02:50 AM
just a bit
you really dont know HOW...
R
:-\

I cannot imagine how hard it must have been but you seemed to have turned the tables on it now and you look great..

no, ive not,
i hate myself for loosing my family, i love them so much, and i miss them more than words can describe.
being a boy nearly killed me, but i cant find much worth living for as a lonely girl.... I miss them :(
R :-\

Quote from: Rachael on February 04, 2008, 07:47:40 AM
no, ive not,
i hate myself for loosing my family, i love them so much, and i miss them more than words can describe.
being a boy nearly killed me, but i cant find much worth living for as a lonely girl.... I miss them :(
R :-\

I can imagine how terrible it would be if my family wanted no more to do with me, and I'd probably feel the same way, so I won't say anything except that there's no reason to hate yourself over it. Not your faut hon.

one thing consolation like that, however lovely and well meant,
it DID happen, nothing changes that...
blame culture aside.
R

Quote from: Rachael on February 04, 2008, 07:47:40 AM
no, ive not,
i hate myself for loosing my family, i love them so much, and i miss them more than words can describe.
being a boy nearly killed me, but i cant find much worth living for as a lonely girl.... I miss them :(
R :-\

You may love them......but do they love you to do what they did to you? I hope they come round in time and understand what you have been going through and the pain and hurt  you have gone through..

Quote from: Berliegh on February 05, 2008, 07:20:39 PM
You may love them......but do they love you to do what they did to you?

That's a rather harsh way to view it. I may have too optimistic a view on human nature, but generally the old guideline seems to work: never assume malice where ignorance will do.

In this case, ignorance (about what GID does to Rachael) and hurt (caused by what it does to her parents) provide an explanation that is much easier to bear than lack of love -- and one that seems more plausible as well, at least from this distance. Another good thing about it is that there's a very good chance of them getting over it eventually. Hopefully sooner than later, though.

  Nfr

if i want to actually live, rather than be trapped in a hope, i need to move on, i simply cant pine forever.
R :police:

Yes, of course. What I tried to say is just don't write them off completely, in case they eventually realise what they are doing.

  Nfr

not holding my breath...
R >:D