Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I live in the U.K and in the U.K Injectable hormones are more or less banned. I have tried to get on them for a while. Most American's are on them and I think they work better than pills.

What I want to know from my American friends is........what are the best forms of Injectable hormones? and the one's you might think are the best in accessing female fat distribution?

I'm going to have another go and trying to get on them with my GP as it's something I haven't been able to try yet. I have been on HRT in tablet form for about 10 years and have also tried patches which I have found slightly better than pills.......but I believe both these forms of medication are not as effective as injections might be, so I need info and valid reasons to present a case for injectables to my GP.

I've been on injectables for 4 months, too early to comment about fat redistribution, although I did lose size off of my neck and my little love handles are kind of melting away, but that could be because of diet too. My face is starting to look a little bit different. I'm 38 so obviously they effect me a little differently than someone say 18 or 50. I inject them into my bum cheek, alternating from right to left, and I give myself a shot every other week. Hope that helps a little :) Meghan

For injectables, you want Estradiol Valerate, and it's an intramuscular injection.  But honestly, since you've already been on hormones for a decade, I wouldn't think that switching to injectables would really make a difference.  After a "puberty" period of 7 years or so, I think I'll probably switch to a maintenance dose using pills or patches myself.

Lia

Quote from: genovais on January 06, 2008, 11:29:51 AM
For injectables, you want Estradiol Valerate...

Agreed. That's all I've seen for injectables. Whether there's a significant difference between that and the estradiol 17B found in most pills and patches, I just don't know.

For what it's worth, my own (US) doctor refused me injections, saying he didn't want to risk infections (from the needles), tissue/muscle damage (from injecting into muscle), or problems from the resulting crazy spikes in levels.

~Kate~

Quote from: genovais on January 06, 2008, 11:29:51 AM
For injectables, you want Estradiol Valerate, and it's an intramuscular injection.  But honestly, since you've already been on hormones for a decade, I wouldn't think that switching to injectables would really make a difference.  After a "puberty" period of 7 years or so, I think I'll probably switch to a maintenance dose using pills or patches myself.

Lia

I tried Estradiol Valerate (Progynova) as few years ago in tablet form. It made me violently sick with massive headaches with excess vomiting and I had to stop, so the last thing I want is that formular injected into my system. I 'm now on ethinyestrodial which works best for me and I can also take premarin quite easily. Anti - androgens are not a problem either and I take andocur (cypretone acitate).

An endocrinologist one put me on an injectable anti -androgen called Zoladex (Golsalerin) once which gave me nasty reversal effects and increased body hair and multiple erections which was horrendous. It was like being put on viagra..

Hmm... the only injectable estrogen I'm sure of is the estradiol valerate (Progynon Depot), but since it made you sick...

I think that there are some other formulations, like estradiol cypionate, but I don't know anything about them.

Lia

Quote from: Berliegh on January 06, 2008, 05:16:21 PM

Quote from: genovais on January 06, 2008, 11:29:51 AM
For injectables, you want Estradiol Valerate, and it's an intramuscular injection.  But honestly, since you've already been on hormones for a decade, I wouldn't think that switching to injectables would really make a difference.  After a "puberty" period of 7 years or so, I think I'll probably switch to a maintenance dose using pills or patches myself.

Lia

I tried Estradiol Valerate (Progynova) as few years ago in tablet form. It made me violently sick with massive headaches with excess vomiting and I had to stop, so the last thing I want is that formular injected into my system. I 'm now on ethinyestrodial which works best for me and I can also take premarin quite easily. Anti - androgens are not a problem either and I take andocur (cypretone acitate).

An endocrinologist one put me on an injectable anti -androgen called Zoladex (Golsalerin) once which gave me nasty reversal effects and increased body hair and multiple erections which was horrendous. It was like being put on viagra..

I feel sympathy for you, every women needs to have breasts, curves

Okay I have a suggestion. maybe it's your mind that needs some change. You see , medicine is simply a way to get your mind to believe that a change will occur- Any experienced doctor will agree with this.

Here's what I suggest- do some hypnosis for transgender- go here- warpmymind.com and you will find some hypno files-

And yes it really does work when you take HRT with it, trust me- your mind controls ALL functions in the body and you can command it to do things a certain way

Berleigh, you were probably made sick by the dye used in the pills or the binder (which I've heard many people complaining about, the 1mg pills use a different dye so you could use that also (worked with others with your problem)).

Its improbable you'd be sick by the valerate associated to the estradiol because it has almost no chemical activity, except forcing the liver to cleave the estradiol from it. This association prolongs it bio-activity slightly and prevents the massive spikes injecting pure estradiol would create.

Estradiol Cypionate is harder to metabolise and thus 10x more potent than estradiol valerate.  It has a slightly less good DVT profile at normal doses because it creates more clotting metabolites due to the liver working harder to break it down. Since it stays in the system longer and is more potent it requires smaller less frequent injections. There is also less peaks (because of the long metabolism process) than estradiol valerate. Its very cheap for big doses.

But, because its more concentrated and because it stays long time in the system, people tend to abuse it. This is probably the most potent form of estrogen you can use (since the use of ethinilestradiol is not recommended at all).

As stated elsewhere, I'd recommend that you move away from ethinil estradiol ASAP (that's what you said you were using) because with that there is a REAL RISK if used short or long term.

Berliegh,

I have a dear friend for whom injectable hormones did absolutely nothing.  She finally switched to the patches and it worked great.  So I think it is really an individual thing.  I was wondering if you have ever tried the sublingual method.  In theory it should provide as good a result as injections without the spikes in blood concentration.

I wish you the best of luck, gorgeous lady!

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Quote from: Kristi on January 06, 2008, 08:37:39 PM
Berliegh,

I have a dear friend for whom injectable hormones did absolutely nothing.  She finally switched to the patches and it worked great.  So I think it is really an individual thing.  I was wondering if you have ever tried the sublingual method.  In theory it should provide as good a result as injections without the spikes in blood concentration.

I wish you the best of luck, gorgeous lady!

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sublingual method? what's that? and thanks for the compliment Kristi which I wish was true..

It's where you dissolve the pills in an area where they can get directly into the bloodstream.  Most people dissolve them under the tongue I think. . . Although I don't do mine there.

Quote from: Keira on January 06, 2008, 06:20:34 PM

But, because its more concentrated and because it stays long time in the system, people tend to abuse it. This is probably the most potent form of estrogen you can use (since the use of ethinilestradiol is not recommended at all).

As stated elsewhere, I'd recommend that you move away from ethinil estradiol ASAP (that's what you said you were using) because with that there is a REAL RISK if used short or long term.

Ethinyestrodial has been the most effective and least harmful hormone for me and the least damaging. Go and do your research again...

In the U.K and Holland it is the most widly used and safest HRT there is.

Berleigh,

I'm starting to doubt that your doctor is used
to treating TS or knows anything about
modern treatment protocols.
I'm serious here. EthinilEstradiol is not to be
used long term unless in micro doses and
if that's what your getting, no wonder you've
got so little devellopment.

I am 56 years old and did not expect much in terms of feminizing from oral estradiol, the little blue pill.

After two years on oral estrogen I asked my HRT doc about injectibles.

I have been on them since 2004 and I have the results to show for it. 

I inject myself twice a month, as I was taught to do, and I only know this:  I got better results than I ever imagined I would get from oral estrogen.

Is estradiol valerate injectible really banned in UK?  I found compounding pharmacies in the States as well as Canada.  I get 20 cc at a time and that lasts me for 24 weeks, give or take a few.  My cost is CAD135.  That's about CAD270 a year.  The little blue pill might cost more and the patches, well, I never priced them out.

Believe me, I got fat redistribution like I never thought I would, from the backs of my hands to my thighs and legs, and all points in-between.

Hope this helps.

Wing Walker

Quote from: Keira on January 06, 2008, 09:19:23 PM

Berleigh,

I'm starting to doubt that your doctor is used
to treating TS or knows anything about
modern treatment protocols.
I'm serious here. EthinilEstradiol is not to be
used long term unless in micro doses and
if that's what your getting, no wonder you've
got so little devellopment.

I have been on ehinyestradial for over 7 years and it works the best for me and is the most effective HRT.  Yes they do come in 50 micrograms per tablet and I'll probably take about 2 or three tablets a day along with the androcur.

Also I don't have an advisor on hormones, which is very common in the U.K and usually we have to organise our own HRT regime. I did see one endocrinologist once who put me on Zoladex which worked in reverse and gave me terrible masculinising side effects and the same endocrinologist put me on estradiol valerate, which in tablet form made me very very ill and coiuldn't stop vomiting for 5 days. So I'd rather be my own judge in these matters.

Quote from: Wing Walker on January 06, 2008, 09:27:28 PM
I am 56 years old and did not expect much in terms of feminizing from oral estradiol, the little blue pill.

After two years on oral estrogen I asked my HRT doc about injectibles.

I have been on them since 2004 and I have the results to show for it. 

I inject myself twice a month, as I was taught to do, and I only know this:  I got better results than I ever imagined I would get from oral estrogen.

Is estradiol valerate injectible really banned in UK?  I found compounding pharmacies in the States as well as Canada.  I get 20 cc at a time and that lasts me for 24 weeks, give or take a few.  My cost is CAD135.  That's about CAD270 a year.  The little blue pill might cost more and the patches, well, I never priced them out.

Believe me, I got fat redistribution like I never thought I would, from the backs of my hands to my thighs and legs, and all points in-between.

Hope this helps.

Wing Walker

That's good news to know Wing, when I see my doc in a couple months I'm going to ask to switch to injectibles.  I'm not the uhhh best at remembering to take pills, some days I just ask myself. . . "Did I even take this today?!?!"

Quote from: shanetastic on January 06, 2008, 09:10:06 PM
It's where you dissolve the pills in an area where they can get directly into the bloodstream.  Most people dissolve them under the tongue I think. . . Although I don't do mine there.

Yes, that's what it is.  The word means literally "under tongue."  Some, like estrofem, are designed to be taken that way.  In theory, it bypasses the liver and gives much better results, less absorption by the liver, so less potential damage.  This is the same basic benefit that injectables give.  That's the theory anyway.  Maybe someone on here who has tried it can chime in. 

Oh, and Beleigh, look in the mirror.  :)

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Yikes, you definitely want to look into another regimen then if you've been taking ethinyl estradiol all this time; its use in the Netherlands has actually been suspended now and replaced with safer forms due to the elevated risk of DVT.

Lia

Quote from: Kristi on January 06, 2008, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: shanetastic on January 06, 2008, 09:10:06 PM
It's where you dissolve the pills in an area where they can get directly into the bloodstream.  Most people dissolve them under the tongue I think. . . Although I don't do mine there.

Yes, that's what it is.  The word means literally "under tongue."  Some, like estrofem, are designed to be taken that way.  In theory, it bypasses the liver and gives much better results, less absorption by the liver, so less potential damage.  This is the same basic benefit that injectables give.  That's the theory anyway.  Maybe someone on here who has tried it can chime in. 

Oh, and Beleigh, look in the mirror.  :)

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I'm on Estrace right now and I take it that way, although, I don't think I'm a good person to ask for how it worked since it's only been a couple months.  There has to be someone who's taken it longer that way here :D

Quote from: genovais on January 06, 2008, 09:42:58 PM
Yikes, you definitely want to look into another regimen then if you've been taking ethinyl estradiol all this time; its use in the Netherlands has actually been suspended now and replaced with safer forms due to the elevated risk of DVT.

Lia

ethinyl estradiol has been the most effective for me and progynova (estradiol valerate) nearly killed me, so what do the so called experts know?

Can someone list up some injectable HRT but not estradiol valerate....thanks!

what are the
"modern treatment protocols"

in looking for a Endo, is there a good clue to this.

thanks,

-Natalie

Berleigh, you didn't read what I put there.

First of all, its impossible for estradiol valerate to nearly kill you
in the way you describe, though an alergy to the dye and binder (which I told you about)
can certainly cause headaches and nausea. Its done so to others.

See the diff, its like the glass is making you sick, but not the content of the glass.

If you insist on continuing with ethinilestradiol don't be surprised if your dose is low
(which is the only semi safe way to use it) that you have little devellopment. At
higher doses which would help in devellopment your risk of DVT and liver damage
increase the longer you use it and the older you get no matter what the dose is.
Don't say you haven't been warned.

I told you that the valeric acid has just about no biological activity in the blood, how can it make you sick then!! It can't. It has to be the dye or binder or the progynova pill.

As for effectiveness, you always say your ethinilestradiol dose is ineffective though you tolerate it; which is a contradiction to what you just said.

There is no options for injection. Injecting estradiol directly, which nobody does, will give you wild spikes and make you sick from nausea for a few days. Injecting with cypionate will be just about the same as valerate acid, except the cypionate part is harder to metabolise (which means it has a stronger biological activity and higher chance of intolerance than the valeric acid associated to estradiol).

The only way to get estradiol directly in the blood is through patches, which are fine if you're over 60 or have a medical condition, but do not allow high serum levels of estrogen except if you pile on the patches. They are extremely safe though.

Using pills sublingually won't help if your alergic to the dyes. As I said, the 1mg pill uses a different dye so that would be a way to try to see if its better. You don't need to eat 50 pills to find out, just one, or even part of one, can tell you if your allergic to this particular dye.

Quote from: Keira on January 06, 2008, 10:44:01 PM

Berleigh, you didn't read what I put there.

First of all, its impossible for estradiol valerate to nearly kill you
in the way you describe, though an alergy to the dye and binder (which I told you about)
can certainly cause headaches and nausea. Its done so to others.

See the diff, its like the glass is making you sick, but not the content of the glass.

If you insist on continuing with ethinilestradiol don't be surprised if your dose is low
(which is the only semi safe way to use it) that you have little devellopment. At
higher doses which would help in devellopment your risk of DVT and liver damage
increase the longer you use it and the older you get no matter what the dose is.
Don't say you haven't been warned.

I told you that the valeric acid has just about no biological activity in the blood, how can it make you sick then!! It can't. It has to be the dye or binder or the progynova pill.

As for effectiveness, you always say your ethinilestradiol dose is ineffective though you tolerate it; which is a contradiction to what you just said.

There is no options for injection. Injecting estradiol directly, which nobody does, will give you wild spikes and make you sick from nausea for a few days. Injecting with cypionate will be just about the same as valerate acid, except the cypionate part is harder to metabolise (which means it has a stronger biological activity and higher chance of intolerance than the valeric acid associated to estradiol).

The only way to get estradiol directly in the blood is through patches, which are fine if you're over 60 or have a medical condition, but do not allow high serum levels of estrogen except if you pile on the patches. They are extremely safe though.

Using pills sublingually won't help if your alergic to the dyes. As I said, the 1mg pill uses a different dye so that would be a way to try to see if its better. You don't need to eat 50 pills to find out, just one, or even part of one, can tell you if your allergic to this particular dye.

I don't believe there is only one injectable HRT? I do complain about my fat distribution but I have noticed other Transsexuals I've met have much worse fat distribution and some are on estradiol valerate? so I think there is more going on than what drug you are using..

My estrogen levels are usually quite high when I've had a blood test.

I wish this thread had a poll containing who's gotten the best results of either oral/sublingual, patches, or injectables.  This is stuff that varies between individuals, but I think is somewhat important for anyone who's interested in starting this kind of thing.

Quote from: kalt on January 07, 2008, 07:42:37 AM
I wish this thread had a poll containing who's gotten the best results of either oral/sublingual, patches, or injectables.  This is stuff that varies between individuals, but I think is somewhat important for anyone who's interested in starting this kind of thing.

I agree

Quote from: kalt on January 07, 2008, 07:42:37 AM
I wish this thread had a poll containing who's gotten the best results of either oral/sublingual, patches, or injectables.  This is stuff that varies between individuals, but I think is somewhat important for anyone who's interested in starting this kind of thing.

Yes, Kalt I agree.  Why don't you make such a poll?  But do be advised that we have to be careful that we do not appear do be endorsing self-medicating.  Nonetheless, it would be very interesting to know that information, especially since medical practices seem to vary around the world, and from doctor to doctor.

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Quote from: Kristi on January 07, 2008, 08:38:05 AM

Quote from: kalt on January 07, 2008, 07:42:37 AM
I wish this thread had a poll containing who's gotten the best results of either oral/sublingual, patches, or injectables.  This is stuff that varies between individuals, but I think is somewhat important for anyone who's interested in starting this kind of thing.

Yes, Kalt I agree.  Why don't you make such a poll?  But do be advised that we have to be careful that we do not appear do be endorsing self-medicating.  Nonetheless, it would be very interesting to know that information, especially since medical practices seem to vary around the world, and from doctor to doctor.

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In the U.K it's very hard to find anyone with any specialist endocrine experience and knowledge with transsexuals. There are endocrinologists but they are very limited.

BTW, Its impossible to test your estrogen levels with estrogen tests
the labs use if your using ethinilestradiol,
since it doesn't show in the blood as estradiol.

So, I'm not sure what level your talking about if your indeed taking this.
That's another of the multiple reasons why ethinilestradiol is no longer used.
So, basically, if your taking EE, you can't know your true E serum levels and
so only results can help in dosage which for normal estrogen is not
a problem, but for EE it is a big problem since higher dosages cause
big health problems. Even if you knew your EE serum levels, it would be
pointless since you don't really know the metabolic activity of this E.

You can only know your T level, which indeed may be low. But, a low
T level and low level of E bio activity (which would be the case if
taking a safe low EE dose) means you would be quasi menauposal
(which would explain the belly fats).

Also, how can people much worse than you if by your own description, you've had no
change in the face, lower body or almost none in your upper body.
Basically, you've had no change and
your saying people on injections are worse? How can you be worse than no change!
If they had little fat and they still have little fat, well they're not worse than you,
they're the same.

There is only two type of injection: EV or EC, valeric or cypionate.

There are also pellets used in the states and possibly available elsewhere (though a doctor has to put them in), but they are quite expensive but convenient in that they put estradiol directly in the bloodstream and they last a long time.

Berleigh, estrogen in natural form is estrogen in natural form, if someone doesn't react to it its dosage or genetics. Valeric acid is merily there to stabilise E in the body (and outside the body). The mode of administration of estradiol is irrelevant if taking an equivalent dosage between modes. So, its possible to get the same devellopment with pills, injections, gels, patches and pellets if taking an equivalent doses. Some of these make it hard to get higher dosages, like patches and gels, but that doesn't change the fact that if you wanted to put 3 patches on, you'd get the same high dosage as someone who injects at top level of safe range.

Also, there are estrofem pill with no valeric acid (but still the possibility of sensibility to dyes and binder) which if used sublingually put estradiol directly in the bloodstream.


Polls on this would be useless unless you put dosages, length of use, etc. Which would contrevene the forum's rule. All bio estrogen's give the same result for one individual no matter how they are administered if you get the same serum level of it.

The main differences between types is the variability of serum levels (which could impact slightly growth speed because receptors can be desensitized to constant high levels (in lower levels, its less a factor)). The desensitization is temporary and quickly reverts to normal once the levels fall. That's another reason why there is a decreasing return on money when you boost dosages.

In this case, if your average level is high, it would be better to not take pills at regular intervals, but take more during the morning, slightly less at noon and more in the evening.  Serum levels from injections vary themselves, though not as much as pills or gels can make it vary.

Patches have constant levels, not ideal, but they're usually taken in lower doses which means its less of a factor.

Quote from: Keira on January 07, 2008, 10:07:50 AM



Also, how can people much worse than you if by your own description, you've had no
change in the face, lower body or almost none in your upper body. Basically, you've had no change and your saying people on injections are worse? How can you be worse than no change!
If they had little fat and they still have little fat, well they're not worse than you,
they're the same.

I never said that. I said some transsexuals who I have met had far worse fat distribution than I have but none of them were on injectable HRT. As I said several times before injectable HRT is not condoned in the U.K so they would not be able to access it. Estradiol valerate is only prescribed in tablet form in the U.K (this I also said before!)

Please read posts more carefully...

Again, worse than none (from your own description)!

Also, you haven't adressed the fact you said you were tested for E
while using ethinilestradiol, which labs don't do and even if they
did do, would give a number that's impossible to compare to
any natal number (basically useless).

Quote from: Keira on January 07, 2008, 10:24:20 AM

Again, worse than none (from your own description)!

Also, you haven't adressed the fact you said you were tested for E
while using ethinilestradiol, which labs don't do and even if they
did do, would give a number that's impossible to compare to
any natal number (basically useless).

I do know about ethinyestrodial not showing up very well on blood tests. But I have been on other HRT formulars during the last 7 years.... including progynova and premarin.

I'm going to quit this topic because you seem to want to nit pick all the time...

Note to all: I did make the poll, it's in the HRT section.  Get to it, lol.

Saying your levels where high in the past says nothing of your
current levels (which you said are HIGH, how do you know if by your own
admission you can't measure them. Maybe they are low, how do you know).

How is it a nit to pick. I point inconsistencies and that's all.
I want to stop bad information.
I don't care who creates it; just don't want to let it stand.
I reply to what you say, nothing more.

Quote from: Keira on January 07, 2008, 07:24:49 PM

Saying your levels where high in the past says nothing of your
current levels (which you said are HIGH, how do you know if by your own
admission you can't measure them. Maybe they are low, how do you know).

How is it a nit to pick. I point inconsistencies and that's all.
I want to stop bad information.
I don't care who creates it; just don't want to let it stand.
I reply to what you say, nothing more.

My recent Oestrogen levels have been very high recently which can be clarified by the very high prolactin levels I have been recieving.

This topic was initially to find out about injectable HRT and for any injectable alternatives to estradiol valerate. I am seeing my GP soon and I need more information to clarify a request.