Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I see the health risks with T blockers but I'm curious what if I were to take just Estrogen and no T blocker?

Yes, it's possible. You'll need to consult with your docs though. I've been on an E only regimen for a bit over 2 years now after having one too many issues with cypro. It's becoming more and more common. It does require higher estradiol levels than some doctors (and members here) seem to be comfortable with, however, with monitoring, this is not a problem.

Quote from: PurplePelican on January 09, 2019, 03:00:45 PM
Yes, it's possible. You'll need to consult with your docs though. I've been on an E only regimen for a bit over 2 years now after having one too many issues with cypro. It's becoming more and more common. It does require higher estradiol levels than some doctors (and members here) seem to be comfortable with, however, with monitoring, this is not a problem.

For the sake of education I would love to know some real life problems with cyproterone.  I have heard of rare cases of liver toxicity(that shows on a blood test). I am unaware of other problems.

Kind regards,  Kirsten.

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The old HRT technique was only E alone. However for you to be able to increase your E levels and lower your T levels and achieve feminization changes, you will need to take high dose of E. Taking high dose of E could also lower the T in your body BUT this would also mean more risk and more work for your liver.

This is why the updated HRT meal plan includes T blockers now so none of us needs to take high dose of E and studies show feminization is more effective this way. You will only need to take T blockers at the first stage of your HRT. When your E and T levels are already on their proper range, taking E alone would help you maintain your low T levels

If you take the blockers initially, it knocks the T levels down so the E can begin the feminization quickly, which is what some people want. If you have surgery, which some people want, the use of blockers is almost always stopped.

Ok so they do the blockers just so the E has a chance to take hold? Is it hard for injections? It seems it's the safest.

Quote from: Devlyn on January 09, 2019, 03:21:50 PM
If you take the blockers initially, it knocks the T levels down so the E can begin the feminization quickly

Well, I've been on Dutasteride for almost 2 years.  I guess this means that when I start HRT, I'll be a D cup within a week!   ;) :D :D :D

Quote from: Abby_girl on January 09, 2019, 02:56:27 PM
I see the health risks with T blockers but I'm curious what if I were to take just Estrogen and no T blocker?

yes it is totally possible.  Though it will likely not b e as effective in feminizing your body, but it may and can help with you dysphoria.

I myself was on just Estrogen for about 8 months last year after being on Estrogen and a low dose of Spiro for about 4 months before I stopped HRT altogether at the beginning of last summer. And I just restarted Estrogen again  last week without Spiro.

Estrogen will still help and will still cause some changes to occur, but much more slowly, and some studies have shown that it will lower T a little bit, but not completely rid you of it.

Quote from: Myranda on January 14, 2019, 10:29:56 PM
yes it is totally possible.  Though it will likely not b e as effective in feminizing your body, but it may and can help with you dysphoria.

The science says no, as does a swathe of anecdotal stories of those of us on a properly managed protocol - at least as far as reduced feminisation is concerned. A properly managed protocol is just as effective, if not better.

QuoteI myself was on just Estrogen for about 8 months last year after being on Estrogen and a low dose of Spiro for about 4 months before I stopped HRT altogether at the beginning of last summer. And I just restarted Estrogen again  last week without Spiro.

Either you are doing DIY or your doctor is a complete idiot. I suspect the former is the case. Either way, you've barely been on any kind of recognisable protocol. Consult a doc with an ability to read.

QuoteEstrogen will still help and will still cause some changes to occur, but much more slowly, and some studies have shown that it will lower T a little bit, but not completely rid you of it.

And this just demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of the process at work and the aims of a proper HRT protocol..

An E-only protocol can suppress gonadal T production, leaving adrenal T and other "androgens" alone - this should be one of the aims of a proper protocol. And even then, there are some women who find a small T supplement adds to their quality of life. 

FWIW, I started HRT in 1972 when I was 17 years old. That was 47 years ago. There were no androgen inhibitors and all there was, was Premarin. Probably because I was young and never really started puberty or produced much testosterone much before I was 16, my body began to feminize quickly. By the time I graduated high school twelve months later, I had curvy curves and between an A and B cup breasts so in my case anyway, estrogen alone produced results. My mom didn't have much up top either and without anti-androgens, I had at least as much as she did.

I took Premarin for five years until I had SRS in 1977 when I was 22 and I hated it. It made me moody, emotional and pretty crazy and my boobs never got much bigger. Then I was put on the bad stuff, ethinyl estradiol that I took for years and years. Whether due to surgery or the change in medication, I was far less up and down and it made me realize how much Premarin messed with my moods. I can't believe it is still widely prescribed. I did end up having breast augmentation when I was 27 in 1982.

I don't remember when or why but at some point, even more bad stuff was added to my HRT regime, medroxyprogesterone acetate (Provera). I've been off and on hormones several times throughout my lifetime for periods of years at a time. I switched to bioidenticals sometime in the late 90's, injected estradiol valerate and and took Prometrium for a few years then took a decade or so off from anything.

Currently injecting EV again for the last 15 months and was also taking Prometrium up until a few months ago when my prescription ran out. For emotional/psychological reasons, I'll never stop at least estrogen ever again, even if it kills me or if I have to do DIY but finding a doctor that has any experience or knows what to do with someone like me besides taking me off HRT entirely or in fact has ever even seen someone like me has proven to be extremely difficult.

BTW, I really hate giving myself shots. I tried patches for a while but they didn't agree with my skin.

I never needed an anti androgen, for me we had to reduce estradiol dose twice and it still suppressed T to essentially zero (below normal cis female range). I'm now taking a very small dose of T to see if it helps with orgasms.

Quote from: PurplePelican on January 15, 2019, 01:01:33 AM
The science says no, as does a swathe of anecdotal stories of those of us on a properly managed protocol - at least as far as reduced feminisation is concerned. A properly managed protocol is just as effective, if not better.

Either you are doing DIY or your doctor is a complete idiot. I suspect the former is the case. Either way, you've barely been on any kind of recognisable protocol. Consult a doc with an ability to read.

And this just demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of the process at work and the aims of a proper HRT protocol..

An E-only protocol can suppress gonadal T production, leaving adrenal T and other "androgens" alone - this should be one of the aims of a proper protocol. And even then, there are some women who find a small T supplement adds to their quality of life.

I was only on Estrodile pills from start to finish. It is possible. Everyone's body reacts differently. My dosage of estrodile was also a conservative amount.

Quote from: NatalieRene on January 15, 2019, 09:59:06 AM
I was only on Estrodile pills from start to finish. It is possible. Everyone's body reacts differently. My dosage of estrodile was also a conservative amount.

Thank you Natalie.  That was a much more appropriate response, and you raised a great point, that I emphasized above.

Everyone is different.

Quote from: Myranda on January 15, 2019, 12:58:43 PM
Thank you Natalie.  That was a much more appropriate response, and you raised a great point, that I emphasized above.

Everyone is different.

Well, yes, the precise dose needed does indeed vary amongst individuals, but within a fairly well known range. This is expected and planned for. It's a protocol that works best for those with some patience, as it can take 6 months or so to balance the levels right.

Quote from: PurplePelican on January 15, 2019, 07:46:14 PM
Well, yes, the precise dose needed does indeed vary amongst individuals, but within a fairly well known range. This is expected and planned for. It's a protocol that works best for those with some patience, as it can take 6 months or so to balance the levels right.

Not always the case. It took me 90 days to be passable. I will grant that I responded well to estrogen and probably an extreme case but estrogen only isn't impossible.

Quote from: NatalieRene on January 15, 2019, 08:15:40 PM
Not always the case. It took me 90 days to be passable. I will grant that I responded well to estrogen and probably an extreme case but estrogen only isn't impossible.

Huh? I never said it wasn't possible - nor would I, it's what I take.  I said "it can take 6 months or so", not that it does.

Of course you can only do E, and that's a decision for you and your MD. Adding the T blocker spiro after only being on E for a couple of months was the thing that sped up changes for me. As others have said, everyone's body reacts differently. I'm happy with my med program. My MD follows WPATH protocols, so no dangerous E dose levels. 

I had a decent breast development prior to taking anything.  I  wanted to see if i can get more or faster growth and started with estrogen alone.  The only reaction I got from this were swollen feet.  I added spiro after a month, and that took mostly care of my swollen feet.  I have not any indication that either estrogen alone, or estrogen together with spiro does anything or my breast growth.
As NatalieRene wrote:   Everyone's body reacts differently.
Mine seems not to react at all!

Quote from: Dietlind on January 16, 2019, 12:11:01 AM
I had a decent breast development prior to taking anything.  I  wanted to see if i can get more or faster growth and started with estrogen alone.  The only reaction I got from this were swollen feet.  I added spiro after a month, and that took mostly care of my swollen feet.  I have not any indication that either estrogen alone, or estrogen together with spiro does anything or my breast growth.
As NatalieRene wrote:   Everyone's body reacts differently.
Mine seems not to react at all!

I don't profess to know the science but if estrogen, testosterone and androgens bind to different receptors maybe your estrogen receptor count is low? If they bind to the same receptors then androgens or testosterone is blocking the estrogen.

It. Igor be the case that when I transitioned my testosterone was naturally low and normal levels of estrogen was enough to suppress it which is why I didn't need a blocker. It's a curious subject.

Quote from: NatalieRene on January 16, 2019, 06:39:41 AM
I don't profess to know the science but if estrogen, testosterone and androgens bind to different receptors maybe your estrogen receptor count is low? If they bind to the same receptors then androgens or testosterone is blocking the estrogen.

It. Igor be the case that when I transitioned my testosterone was naturally low and normal levels of estrogen was enough to suppress it which is why I didn't need a blocker. It's a curious subject.

I don't know for sure.  I am up for a comprehensive blood analysis next month, and have to see what comes out from that.
But i am on the highest possible dose of Finasteride now for almost 6 years, and according to examinations, my prostrate is as little as it can get.  My urologist feels that my testicles basically must have given up producing much testosterone a few years ago (coincidental with my breast growth???), because the have shrunk to near the size of a hazelnut.
I know from my genome analysis that my body will not metabolize certain medications (mostly opioides containing painkillers, which is bad, because that leaves normal non steroid pain medication as the only stuff I can take to reduce pain), they did not analyse my bodies reaction to estrogen. 
This intersex condition of mine screws up a lot of stuff, some are good mutations (I do not have any wisdom teeth and don't have to get that painfull surgery to remove them), and some are bad, like my diabetes!
I don't know, and have to see what the blood test brings. 
Foe the moment I just can say that I don't feel any results of HRT, and that is pretty disappointing!