Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

I went to a drag show once. One of the performers was a coworker of mine. Myself and a group of ladies from work went. This was before I came out to some of my work friends.

I enjoyed supporting the performer, but felt uncomfortable with it as it does seem that most of the people I know associated it much too closely with transgender. The performer I know is a gay man and does not identify as female. Most queens I know are gay men. Obviously not all drag queens fall under that category though.

I have nothing but support for drag queens, as they should feel comfortable being themselves.
I have the same general feelings you do. I am not offended by it at all, but it is an exaggeration of the female gender. I do not wish to exaggerate in my presentation, nor do I want to be perceived as a gay man.

My friends have now been educated on the differences between the two. It has helped both myself and the queens that have common friends with me. I also explained the differences between cross dressing as well.

Unfortunately now days so much gets lumped together as the same thing, which I feel is detrimental to everyone's expression of self and the understanding received from the rest of the population.

Lacy

@KimOct it is not just you.

I attend a church that proclaims itself to be Welcoming and Accepting, all the right stuff, and I am sure all mean well there.  Alas, there has been no actual education of the folks there for well over a decade.  So, why should that matter?

When I first showed up there, within a few weeks as folks figured out I was transgender (Bless them, even 2 years ago I passed with most of the older members!), I started getting curious responses.  Besides the misgendering confusion, I was asked "Where do I perform?", as well as folks wondering why I always appeared as female!  I have been asked if I am gay, and I have to go to great lengths to affirm that yes, I am a gay woman, attracted to other women, and not a gay male in drag.

There's a fair amount of confusion in the general population about trans folks, gender performance like drag, and related topics on gender and sexuality.  I've been working on education of folks including this congregation, and they are catching on slowly but surely.

I know a number of drag performers, mostly queens.  I would say that perhaps a quarter of the performers I know actually identify as transgender, and most of the rest are out as gay males, and identify as cisgender male when off-stage.  The two drag kings I know identify as cisgender female off-stage.  Most of these performers play with hyper-sexuality on stage, as either low comedy or in musical entertainment, singing, lip-syncing, and really good dance work.

Unfortunately, there are a few queens who do low comedy that strongly intersects with transgender identities, playing with the idea of trapping or tricking others in various ways, which reflects poorly on transgender folks and continues the false narratives about our nature and purpose in trying to be our authentic selves.

That can hurt.

I used to do Drag. It is quite different from being Trans. Drag is a performance, over the top characters... a stage persona... It has nothing to do with being Trans.  I can't say that anyone is being "overly sensitive", but realizing that it is different will add perspective. Some natal women are offended by Drag shows and men too. Different things offend different people. However, performing and "being" are two very different things. Once your friend realizes what Drag is, I am sure they'll see the distinction... or you can fill them in. 

In my honest opinion, Drag Queens are amazing and ultra glam. If I use half their style prowess, my girl friends feel the need to change and up their game for lunch out with me. I can't be offended by performers, but being told by someone that "who I am" is disingenuous would give me cause to take issue with that person.

I think we also have to realize that membership in the lgbtq does not automatically endow gay men, lesbians, etc., (or us!) with inate knowledge of our community.   My best friend of many years is a part of the  "Bear" community and I don't get some of their fashions, but have met a lot of great people.   When folks would ask me about "performing" I would make a joke and they would "get it."   I also really respect the Queens because they are the fund raisers of the lgbt community.  Also, because of the often hyper masculine emphasis in the gay male world, a lot of DQs have dating problems not unlike our own.   Even though we are often coming from different areas of the gender spectrum there are often areas of overlap.

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

I have the same feelings about this, you have.  We have worked so hard to get to the point at which we are, and gained a little acceptance of the general public, and along come the drag queens!  Making everything to look like a joke and a charade!  Making the public to believe that we are rally the weird people some want believe we are.

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.

I agree with you.  Drag performance is a caricature, and since we are the targets of the caricature, even a good show is subtly insulting. 

I went to one drag show at Pride Week last year because the performer was someone I know and like.  He did a good job - he is very talented - but that didn't take away the bitter taste.

Regarding your friend who commented on the play, I would have added that I am not into drag myself, just to give the perspective that drag and trans are different.

I think the issue is more public ignorance of what being transgender is rather than  anything inherent to drag.

As Harley said, drag is over the top, part of the point being to stand out, which makes it highly visible. Drag queens also seem to get a disproportionate amount of air time in the standard 2 minute blurb on the local  nightly newscast acknowledging Pride festivals and parades. That visibility and the general publics lack of trans awareness make a lot of people see us both as men playing dress up.

As an example,  my brother was at my dad's house when my dad got my coming out letter. (I had mailed it 2 weeks earlier, but I guess my dad doesn't pick up his mail every week even.)  Among the the things that my brother told me my dad said was that I had "better not show up there looking like a ->-bleeped-<- drag queen".  Plenty of reference material included with my letter so had he read them and/or wanted to understand, he would have known the difference.




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I'm okay with drag.  I see it as an art form. I love art.  Art is supposed to make people feel uncomfortable and question their assumptions.  As such drag succeeds wonderfully.

Well I am glad it's not just me.  As for drag performers I certainly don't hold it against them personally.  And yes I do know that the majority of them are gay cis men.  What makes me uncomfortable is primarily two things.

The entire comedic / caricature aspect of men dressed as women.  The other is that lack of awareness of the general public does cause them to conflate transwomen with drag queens.  This is true with well meaning people also.  When I first saw an acquaintance after going full time she was very nice and accepting but even in the initial conversation she asked if I perform OMG.  I tried to explain the difference but she was so busy trying to convince me how accepting she was that I don't think any of what I said sunk in.

I have been 3 times in my life.  The last time was an accident.  An accident you ask? LOL.  Yeah some friends were going to an event billed as transgender artists.  I thought it was artwork such as paintings etc.  LMAO  I am an idiot.

I really try to go by the philosophy of to each their own and live and let live.  I have noticed though that since transitioning I have become more empathetic to the feelings of other marginalized people - black lives matter - the rest of the LGBTQ community - women's rights - the me too movement etc.  At the same time it is important to not take ourselves too seriously no matter who we are and everyone should be able to laugh at themselves.  It is a fine line to walk sometimes.

I guess at the end of the day I will never care for drag but I will try not to condemn those that enjoy it or participate.  Just don't ask me to sit down and watch RuPaul with you.  ;D

You know what? = I read this again after posting and decided that I am being a little too nice about it.  I did not edit anything above because I meant it and yet I am of two minds on this.  I don't want to have a persecution complex and take everything too personally but I thought about it a little more.  In the 3 shows I have attended and the little bit I have seen on TV or at gay pride etc - it really is kind of offensive.  I know I am contradicting myself but it is because I have conflicting feelings on the subject.  That is probably why I posted this topic.

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 08:07:19 PM
I have noticed though that since transitioning I have become more empathetic to the feelings of other marginalized people - black lives matter - the rest of the LGBTQ community - women's rights - the me too movement etc. 

............- it really is kind of offensive.  I know I am contradicting myself but it is because I have conflicting feelings on the subject.  That is probably why I posted this topic.

I was always very sensitized about anything that goes to the heart of minority groups.  My mother was jewish and a prisoner in one of the NAZI camps (my intersex symptoms might be the result of experiments done to her, who knows, she never talked about it).  Anyway, when I see actions that marginalizes any minority group, or makes fun of them, I see red flags all over the place!
And drag queens make fun about me and similar people, and instill the negative image about us into the general public!

No way should a drag show have billed itself as "transgender artists", even if all the performers were trans.

Not a fan of Drag Race either. Way too over the top for me. 

I don't want to defend it because I'm  not sure really what the point of drag is.
We suffer from and are at least somewhat marginalized by the public's association with drag to trans, but I don't think the purpose of drag is making fun of trans women.


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For us it may seem unfortunate because it does get more than it's share of coverage and most probably don't know enough about anything trans to see the distinction between us and them.

It has not one thing to do with us or caricature, it's about performance and glam. It's about them and something that they enjoy doing and people enjoy watching. It is art and as far as art goes, it is usually pretty fun and energetic.

I say seems unfortunate because they are not really talking much bad press right now even though they are taking the lion's share of the visibility at events. Those are events and people don't usually see them in their day to day lives We are the ones that are sitting across from them on the bus, in line at the store or pumping our gas across from them. My opinion is that the extremely loud opposition is very small and they don't care, they just want someone to hate. Most people will judge us by who we are, what we do as individuals, what we show the world of ourselves.

No matter how I look at it I can't see them as a problem at all. Tolerance can't hurt and being uncharitable usually does hurt someone. I always am amazed at how much intolerance is in the world.

This will sound harsh, I don't want to let this go though and I apologize for the tone.

It's not all about you, or in this case us. I don't see it as a caricature at all but I promise you that if it is, it has never been about us. My grandma complained about a drag sow she saw in 1947 or something like that, and did I want to be like those men. That is what you want to be like, all of those men pretending to be women? It is not about us and when we make it so in our heads it comes across more as our own insecurities. They are not making fun of us or anyone, seems to me they spend more time poking fun at themselves. Enjoy it or not but please don't make it about us.

As with most issues I see shades of grey on this one.  Regarding IamM thoughts - I can understand that position to some extent and as I said several times I don't want to have a persecution complex.  Also I don't think drag performers are targeting us.

But I do think that there is a comedic element to the fact that they are crossdressed.  Otherwise it would be the same as any other lip sync or singing or stand up comedy performance.  The fact that they are crossdressed has meaning in the context of the performance.  It is part of the comedy. 

If my tone is not getting across correctly I am not arguing with IamM and I actually see some degree of merit in the points made but at the end I must say that I do find it hurtful whether it is intended or not.

Well... I wasn't expecting this topic to be so polarizing. I think something that has escaped many of us, is the fact that many of the first drag shows were done in a way as to showcase early trans women. They were known as "Balls", as in ballroom.

We may have heard the names Marsha P. Johnson and Silvia Rivera as being the the mothers of the trans revolution. Stonewall riots became known as the start of the gay revolution because they weren't seen as transgender (since the word wasn't coined yet), but rather as gay men.

As I grew up in suburbia, I knew nothing about these things. I felt obliged to take the time to learn about them. I highly suggest watching "Paris is Burning". (Hint:. Vogueing actually originated from the Ball Scene.)

Drag shows grew from those Balls. Gay men that weren't trans saw how much fun it was to dress feminine and perform that they too wanted in on it.

One question that I got from a co-worker was "Do you do drag?" I then explained that drag was just a performance art that was done mostly by gay men. Then I explained that I just wasn't that creative.

I don't find drag shows offensive. As the saying goes, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." But when RuPaul said that trans women had no business doing drag, that was shocking. He needs to learn his history!

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You see - another good point made in the opposite direction  :D   Yes that is true - early drag shows were done by trans pioneers and of course the Stonewall incident and resulting movement were huge in LGBT history.  So again I can see the other side.  But I still end in the same place - kind of hurts my feelings. 

Early on, drag was one of the few outlets for what we now call transgender women.  "Morals laws" prevented living as one's authentic self, subjecting us to arrest should someone notice that we were wearing clothing inappropriate for our gender assigned at birth.  Law enforcement was particularly harsh on those of us who favored a feminine appearance.

There were some places where we could be seen on the street and not be immediately busted.  In San Francisco, we were 'permitted' north of Market and west of Polk, east of Stockton, the neighborhood called "The Tenderloin".  Police wouldn't hassle us so often there.  In 1967-68 we could also be in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, but that became unsafe in 1969-70, with police 'cleanup' sweeps.

At 14 I discovered that if I gave the bus driver an extra dime, I could ride all the way into San Francisco.  In 1967, that was quite the experience.  I wore my boots and flare pants, and in the SF bus terminal I'd change my top to something a bit more Bohemian and brush out my hair, another 14 year old hippie chick running around the city.  Then I'd head off to visit new friends over at Taylor and Turk St, or out near the Panhandle at Haight & Ashbury.

I was busted on a 'morals charge' in 1969, for a top that buttoned the 'wrong way', after being picked up in a sweep to get those damn hippie kids off the street.  The parents were informed, and hilarity ensued.

Most of the older trans women in the Tenderloin seemed to be either drag performers or sex workers.  One auntie there took me under her wing and gave me some pretty strong life-altering advice, to avoid the drugs and the sex work, and try as hard as I could to make my way in life on my own terms.  Her language was more colorful than that...

Drag has evolved over the years.  As trans women became more acceptable in daily life, fewer have done performance work as an outlet for themselves, I suspect.  Some of us were able to make it in life without the relative risks of sex work, although that remains relatively common in our population.  (Sex work is work; hard, a bit risky, but something that has been honorable through much of history.  Debating this is a topic for another thread, though.)

As performance, drag is a theatrical play on sexuality and gender, and relies on hyper-sexual interpretations.  For better or worse, the public has confused drag gender performance and daily gender presentation, and for trans women has splashed some of that drag hyper-sexuality onto our image in the public mind.  That causes us some additional problems.

I think many of us have had THAT experience, disclosing to some person only to have their responses to us shift from friendship or dating interest over to an aggressively sexual response and desired interaction.  That is the unfortunate result of the femme drag hyper-sexuality coloring the image of transgender women.  This isn't the fault of drag, or drag performers, but an indication of the lack of education on sex and sexuality with the public.

Our particular culture is relatively repressive and denies the need for education on sexuality, and I feel that it is the deliberate ignorance imposed on the population that leads to many of our problems.  The confusion with drag, and the hyper-sexuality issues in particular come from that ignorance.

I'll just get off my soapbox now...

I am glad I brought this topic up.  There is obviously a great deal of difference of opinion.  Michelle demonstrates a knowledge of things first hand that rings very true to me from reading and watching documentaries.  I am only 7 years younger than her but I lived in Chicago and San Francisco was ( and still is ) a very different culture.

Although we all share the experience of being transgender we are all not cut from the same mold.  Our life experiences have shaped us and we have different personalities and greater or lesser sensitivities.

I do think that the issue of gender variance and comedy is a complex one and walking the line between comedy & entertainment  vs.  negative societal influence is a blurry line. 

I can see a that there is a difference of culture. Sometimes it feels like ther is always a difference of culture. :) Not a bad thing, just a thing.

This is the worst thing that I will ever say here, seriously forgive me I hate that I am saying it but...

Put on your big girl panties. They are performers! Everyone loves SNL as long as they are crucifying Trump but no one wants the spotlight put on them. One group dares to make light of us and it is the end of the world. Truthfully they may be the only group that can make light of us in our culture, in this country today and get away with it. I am almost more angry with this pc culture than Trump at this point and that is saying a lot.

Where I live it is a small group with a small dedicated following. I won't lie, they are amazing here, they always answer when someone is doing any charity. I have never seen them make fun of anyone that is not in direct opposition of lgbt rights and then very little. I guess that I don't understand what you are talking about after all. They have such a passion for their art and they are so enjoyable, I guess that I never imagined that there were some that were not exactly what most would call decent.

I want to delete what I have wrote so bad. If they are making fun of us, show me. What I have seen are people enjoying the freedom of being who they are. That love people appreciating them in the feathers and glitter completely femme and playing the croud. That is just the males.

Is it inconvenient for us, yeah maybe. Ever go out to dinner with a bunch of girls that are not yet passing very well? When you are passing you know that it may give you away and I hope with all of my heart that you do it anyway. If you are pointing to a specific performer that is targeting trans people that is one thing, if not then you are just afraid that someone is going to see who you are because of the girl eating next to you. They have eaten the same meal we have to a large degree, dealt with the same ->-bleeped-<-ty waiter, want to split the check that should be cool, pretend that you don't know them or that somehow we are better, that is kinda scary. The fact that people in our marginalized group are pointing to another marginalized group as victimizers already scares the crap out of me.

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

I'm not sure you were being equated with a Drag Queen anywhere but between your own ears. The old saying "You can't control others, but you can control your reaction" comes to mind.

I guess I'm fortunate to have friends who can clearly see that dressing as a woman, and dressing as a Queen are two wildly different things.

I've never met a Queen I didn't like. They "get" us, and they understand that for us, the identity stays on 24/7, and they know we don't have an easy path.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: KimOct on February 05, 2019, 01:16:20 AM
I am glad I brought this topic up.  There is obviously a great deal of difference of opinion.  Michelle demonstrates a knowledge of things first hand that rings very true to me from reading and watching documentaries.  I am only 7 years younger than her but I lived in Chicago and San Francisco was ( and still is ) a very different culture.

Although we all share the experience of being transgender we are all not cut from the same mold.  Our life experiences have shaped us and we have different personalities and greater or lesser sensitivities.

I do think that the issue of gender variance and comedy is a complex one and walking the line between comedy & entertainment  vs.  negative societal influence is a blurry line.

Having lived for the first half of my life in Europe, mainly in Germany, I associate drag queens with the red light milieu!

They may have been during the roaring 20's in Berlin (Cabaret), but when I lived there, they were mainly a fixture in the hamburg St. Pauli red light district, or the Frankfurt at the Bahnhof red light district.
For me you can talk them as much into artists as you want, I cannot disassociate them from the red light areas!  And I still feel, they drag us down to them into this milieu!

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

Also, let's please be careful here. Drag Kings and Queens are part of us. We're all under the transgender umbrella. Imagine how it feels to come here for support and to be treated as an outsider, with people discussing how you impact "us".

I just want the royalty to know that they are always welcome here and part of this community, as I'm sure everyone else does, too.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

I feel much the same way, but then I tell myself STFU, it's a big tent. That said, it's not the same thing.


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Quote from: Devlyn on February 05, 2019, 11:29:03 AM
Also, let's please be careful here. Drag Kings and Queens are part of us. We're all under the transgender umbrella. Imagine how it feels to come here for support and to be treated as an outsider, with people discussing how you impact "us".

I just want the royalty to know that they are always welcome here and part of this community, as I'm sure everyone else does, too.

Hugs, Devlyn

Good point Devlyn - while I may not care for drag shows and the concept bothers me to some degree I think I have straddled the fence pretty well in this discussion.  We should always remember that no matter what our opinion is whether it be this or any other topic we have not walked in someone else's shoes.   

Whether they be flats or 6 inch platforms -  ;D  sorry I couldn't help myself.  I crack myself up.

Quote from: Dietlind on February 05, 2019, 09:13:17 AM
Having lived for the first half of my life in Europe, mainly in Germany, I associate drag queens with the red light milieu!

They may have been during the roaring 20's in Berlin (Cabaret), but when I lived there, they were mainly a fixture in the hamburg St. Pauli red light district, or the Frankfurt at the Bahnhof red light district.
For me you can talk them as much into artists as you want, I cannot disassociate them from the red light areas!  And I still feel, they drag us down to them into this milieu!

I wanted to respond to this but forgot. :) Don't make an issue of it, not a mental world champion after all.

This really showed me that two people can see the same thing but view it in completely different ways.

I have been there, the Bahnhof red light district in Frankfurt. When I came back from Desert Storm we came into Ramstein air base, my permanent duty station was Mannheim and I was planning to spend the day with a friend in Wiesbaden before going back to base the next day. Actually turned out okay, she was staying at her parents flat for a few days while they were on holiday. I miss that by the way, all my friends went on holiday to some remote place in a travel trailer that they have gone to their whole lives and they knew everyone. She was actually from the Nederlands and her parents were spending their holiday on Scheveningen Beach. Lots of fun there btw, bring water, cotton mouth in Holland is a serious problem. Okay, moving on. There were not many of us, maybe 12, the rest of the company had been back in Germany for months. Someone had the bright idea that we should go to the red light district, I really hated him for that but everyone else was on board so. Yeah, normally I would have refused. Not for any moral reason you have to understand, I have never cared more out of indifference, to this day I have no idea what I would do with a woman. I would have refused but my straightness had been a huge question in Saudi Arabia and no one had forgotten. Wanna judge, do it on your own time, I did what I thought that I had to do so no one would find out about me. I was dreading it, and even though it was early in the day I was already a few beers into being totally messed up. I don't know if this was normal back in the early nineties but you walked into the building and there were girls in the doorways and you just chose. One guy got a girl on the first floor and we kept going, I thought that I could just wait and then say that I did but it was like they were waiting for me. After the second floor I realized that they were waiting to see what I would do. Okay, don't let a Saudi guy kiss you if you plan to pretend that you are straight, that does not go away. So I did grab a girl and I was freaking. I had been with a girl before, it is possible just kind of annoying and incredibly boring. I couldn't though and I told her, she said something weird like, 'It's always the pretty ones.' And then, 'It's okay. It hasn't happened to me before but I have heard from girls that it has happened to them.'

When I say that two people can see or experience the same thing so differently I mean that it was really one of the highlights of my life. I was so afraid that everyone would know about me because of going there but it turned out to be the best 275 Marks I ever spent. She had a ton of stories and we went long past our time, it actually gave me a reputation and I would have been ashamed about that but I know that she would not have cared. It was so much fun. She talked about the men, big and small, and I laughed the whole time.

I went there terrified and left so relieved. I don't understand why prostitutes are seen in such a negative light. I only barely knew one and she was not only kind enough to keep my secret but she made me laugh until I could barely breathe. I guess that I am grateful to her and maybe she is unique but I have to believe that they are just like everyone else. It's not you that I am disappointed in but the world, people use them and yet they are somehow ostracized. I don't understand.

You see something horrible, I just see someone that kept the secret of a boy that was so afraid that someone would find out that he did not like women. You see it as loosing respect an I can only see how much respect that I learned there. I don't know who is right but given a choice I think that I prefer my view.

Scheveningen was where I used to spend most of my summer vacations.  I was born and raised right at the Dutch border, and our dialect there was the Dutch language version spoken in the south of the Netherlands (Province Limburg).  It was easy for us to be anywhere in the Netherlands, because we had no problem with communication. It is harder for me to understand the people in Manheim than those in Amsterdam.
Anyway, when I said the milieu, I did not mean the individual sex worker, but the entire atmosphere in those red light districts (they are in all lager European cities).  For a while in my life, I did commercial refrigeration repair, and one of my customers were the bordellos in Düsseldorf (Hinter dem Bahndamm), because they needed reliable cooling for champagne and other drinks.  I always found that the ladies there were really pleasant customers, who gave pretty good tips!
But the setting has a negative name, and I cannot shed the negative thinking about the milieu.  I don't know if one had to be growing up in Europe at the time I did, to get this impression.
People who grew up in the US might have a hard time to understand this feeling, because nothing comparable was existing here (I don't know when Nevada eased their laws).
I lived about 2 driving hours away from Amsterdam, and each time when we had visitors from the US (my wife was born and raised in Wisconsin), either through work or privately, the men felt they needed to see the red light area in Amsterdam.  And off I went for another trip, to see the prostitutes sitting in the shop windows offering their services.  It was less the ladies of the night who I disliked, it was more the attitude, and the openly displayed hornyness of the potentional customers parading by those windows, which made me feel icky.

 :) I had a lot written, most was irrelevant and me reminiscing. I loved it there and would not complain if I had to live the rest of my life where you are from.

Also after thinking about it I understand a little. I don't often change my position, usually I have thought it through until I can understand the whole picture, sometimes I haven't and I feel pretty stupid about it and have to apologize. This time I am not changing my position, more like adding an addendum. ;D

Men that make you feel icky I completely agree with. Not all men, most men are good people but there are a few. I think most men are cute the way they act around me, smiling but nervous, always ready to help or get my attention but scared at the same time. Most of the men who actually make a real advance at me are doctors, lawyers, a baseball player once and maybe a governor. The last one may just have been in my head, his actions seemed to be of pursuing and it felt like he was hitting on me but I don't know, perhaps I will leave him in the maybe column. They are still normal men, just less afraid of making a move from what I can tell. There are men that make my skin crawl, a kind of ickiness to the tenth power. I met a guy once that argued with me that I was not trans, which okay that was flattering, but all he wanted was sex. Everything was about sex and only sex even though I made it clear that I was not going to hook up with someone just to hook up. It is creepy talking to someone like that. He was cute, well dressed, I think that he was a sales rep for some breakfast cereal company but the best thing that I can say about him was how amiable he was after I told him that he wasn't for me. He didn't push at all after that, deleted my number and asked me to delete his and we parted with no questions. It was his singleminded pursuit that weirded me out, that and I said at one point how afraid I was of getting a std, especially herpes(don't know why that one scares me more than aids but it does), he actually laughed and said that everyone has herpes. Ew, ew, ew, ew! Nothing wrong with people that have it, one of the people that I love most in my life has herpes, it was his cavalier attitude and how dismissive he was about it. I have had men that I had never seen before say the most disgusting, disturbing things to me. Yes, icky is how they made me feel and I can see how being surrounded by that would make you want to have nothing to do with it. Just a couple of weeks ago I was getting gas and older man was getting gas on the other side of the pump. He was kind of large, intimidating maybe, big white beard that was well groomed. He said something about never hitting on a girl at a gas pump before, I should not have engaged him but I have been able to cut off ridiculous behavior before by never letting them get momentum, so I said I doubt that Pinocchio. He laughed and said that he recently got a divorce and that I was prettier than his ex wife. I was starting to get flustered and stopped pumping when my tank was not even close to full. I should not have said what I said next but I wasn't thinking and I just wanted to get away. Sorry I am not... Really you are beautiful. That just made it pop out, Does it hurt when your nose grows that fast? That was my big mistake, he immediately came back with I do have something long and hard that grows really fast, do you think you could help make it go down? I ran, actually ran into the convenience store and I hear him yell out, Come back and help! He was laughing. He didn't say anything when I came out with my boyfriend. He might have been playing other than that but he was enjoying scaring me and didn't want to continue when I was not alone. One guy actually held the in going door for me at a restaurant as I was already leaving through the out going door. Said something like You can come back in and have dinner with me. I'm buying and I can be very nice. I am paraphrasing, it has been a while but it was close. He even had a woman with him and she was holding the inner door waiting for him!

What I am saying is that I do understand. Of course I did it in a rambling aimlessly way, I am tired of apologizing for that though. :) I will continue to try to control my weirdness in the future, that work by way of an apology?

@IAmM, You don't have to apologize for anything!  We are all here because we want to sort out our life and understand our rather unusual conditions!
The stories your are telling are exactly the stories I dislike a lot, and that make me not to really like men!  I  do not want to be the "Ladyboy" or any variation of it.  i did not like this kind of behavior when i was still a man, nd do certainly not like it as a woman!
I really tried, and signed up on site called Transsexual Dating, and another one called Trans Chat.  The only contacts I received were from man having their genitalia as an avatar, and telling me that they really like to be with a trans woman, because we trans ladies are so inspiring for their sexual ability.  I was gone from those sites as fast as I could.  I do not want to be somebodies fetish to help him to live his sexual fantasies.  If I ever would find a man, who I would like, I would see our relation as a partnership, and if the emotions connect right, sex may come into play at some time.  The sam would be true for a relation with a woman.  If I don't find a person like this, i'd rather stay alone.
I think that it would be best for me to have a relation with another trans person (no matter if it is M2F or F2M), because such a person knows from their own experience that we trans people tick a little different that cis people do!

Hugs
Linde

Linde,

I certainly agree that being seen as trans object like that is so distasteful. Yuck! I am not really treated in anyway as a transsexual. I may be delusional but all indications make me think that I pass very well. Maybe not, I don't know as it is not a conversation that I ever have. That one guy was when I was looking for someone a while ago, it was on a dating app and I was just in there as a woman, I did have it in my profile that I was trans though. He was one of the few that said all of the right things to get me to talk to him, he kept saying that I wasn't trans though which I found bizarre. Why would anyone pretend to be trans. My lawyer should know, I met him through my boyfriend and he helped me with my name change. I struggled for months and every time I had paid and thought that the process was going well I found out they had ran my name change through as getting married, finally I just had a lawyer do it for me. He is nice though he is married so he probably shouldn't make passes on other women but I have gotten past the notion that all men care about that sort of thing. My friends' husbands can be horrible! It has caused strain on my friendships more than once and even ended my one friendship. People other than my friends should also know that I have a boyfriend, but again I can give that a pass. He is older than me but not so much that it seems weird, just that he has so many health problems that he looks older and no one believes that I am anyway close to my age so our age gap looks huge. I think most people assume that I am his daughter or caretaker, even the lawyer. My boyfriend doesn't help, he doesn't really act like my boyfriend not even behind closed doors unless I express displeasure at being ignored physically. I guess we have a strange relationship. I go to the lawyer with him to be what he describes as an external hard drive, no idea why he would use that jargon he is a writer and artist and doesn't know any more about computers than I do. The lawyer is mostly professional but he never lets go of my hand, constantly says how happy he is to see me and has asked a few times if I wanted to go a ballgame with him. Always polite and never pushes, what does make me mad about that is my boyfriend never says a word. I understand with our friends, they are his oldest and closest friends and he knows that I would never do anything, he doesn't want to push them away by making a fuss, the lawyer though? I know it bothers him. He went with me to exchange a gift one time, as we were walking into the mall two really big guys were coming straight at us, as they get close one looks at me and says hi then they push right between us and the other says loudly enough for everyone within 20 meters to hear, Nice tits and ass, I'd get all up in that. The other says not quite as loudly, You got that right. I felt so bad for my boyfriend, I was afraid but he shook with rage and fear. As soon as we thought that it was safe we went home, he even let me drive his precious little sports car home. He has rarely said anything since then. The one specialist that he sees is just so overbearing to me, constantly touching and smiling and always tries to give me a hug before we go. He never says anything to the specialist but the first time he complained for days about my "Latin lover", I think the doctor is Baltic by the way. I don't go in with him anymore but the doctor still comes out to the lobby to say hi and try to give me a hug. I asked my boyfriend if I did anything to lead the man on and he said No, you never do. It just gets old. Anyway I am not going anywhere, I love him and can't imagine life without him, he knows that but it still bothers him though he ignores it.

Ahhh! Crap, over sharing again. What I had intended to say...

I went to delete the brand reference, there was no need for it there and it could be any breakfast cereal company it is just that I know they have a factory in our area. It made me think of a sales rep that worked for the company that I worked at. He was the Asian sales rep and his wife and children lived in their home near Tokyo. He was rarely here in the states and because he just lived in a company paid for hotel room while he was here, he spent most of his time working. We were often alone on the night and weekends and we had many long and interesting conversations about more topics than I can remember. He was fun, intelligent and full of energy, he could really drag you into a topic. I liked him a lot. I had already started to transition but I wasn't out yet, though I think most people were aware there was something going on and I am sure he was observant enough to put some things together. I don't believe it had anything to do with me, I don't know what caused the slight change in his conversations, it was no topic that I would ever bring up or participate in. He started to bring up small things about the countries that he visits, the women, more specifically the prostitutes. It was really small at first, like how much he liked certain countries because of them. One day he really started to talk about them and I kind of made excuses and left. The next time we talked he steered the conversation that way again. To me it was very dark. About how one friend that he went to school with and him used to go to the prostitutes whenever he was in the country that his friend lived in. He loved it there, he said that some of them were so cheap and how his friend would not go to them because he thought they were dirty or something but he didn't mind so he spent a lot of time in that country with those cheap women. It unnerved me so much that I mumbled something about work and left. Why would he tell anyone that, and I have never shown any interest in the conversation the only thing that I had ever said to him on the subject was that I didn't have any moral objection but that it wasn't for me and I really didn't know anything about it. Why would anyone talk like that? I never saw him again. When he was in country I avoided the corporate office until after he left, which really sucked, I ended up there in that giant building alone to 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning getting my work done. Another long and pointless story, I just want to say that looking at that I think that I understand better how you feel.

:) I also wanted to say that no one treats me like a trans woman, even the people that I know are aware of it. Most I ever hear about it is when we are having girl time playing cards or eating out without the guys, two or three times they have said stuff like, You don't have an Adam's apple or anything. I look and look but I can't see how you were a boy. The worst and most hurtful but most understandable was when the girl I am closest to in the group, her husband was really going over the top flirting with me, it hurt her a lot and I got forceful pushing him away. In the bathroom then later she was crying and looked at me and said, You are not even a girl. That hurt. Lol, there I go on and on again, sorry done now. Just saying that I really doubt most people have any idea that I am trans. I know what you are saying, I have been there but that was years ago.

Also sorry that I don't have time to proofread, I want to get dinner started.
Take care,
Michelle

@IAmM
I am a few years older than you, and beyond that age that random men would try to hit on me at the gas station (they would not do that with cis women in my age either), neither would men in a professional setting do those things, because for most of the cases  would be peer of them, and at a certain professional level ti is not considered to be cool to hit on a peer, because this person may be your boss next month (or even the boss of your boss).
That is the reason that I cannot talk about those situations, i know them only from dating sites that I left faster than I could sign up!
I have no problems of not passing, it might be easier for older women to pass, because we do not have to look that beautiful anymore to pass, and some cis women I met, look definitely way more male than I ever looked!  and nobody questions their femininity, and because of this, they don't question mine.

I hope you had a delicious dinner, and one of my girlfriends should be bringing mine over shortly (yes the ladies coock for this old hag!  >:-))
Love
Linde

It was! Stuffed cabbage and mushroom pierogies. Takes a while to make but worth it.

Lol, old hag indeed! Don't look very old or hagish in your profile pick. :)

Yeah, I would not say I was beautiful or anything, kinda plain really. I do love my hair. I don't understand it and it freaks me out, I used to bad about it. Called people weird until a friend got on my case about that hard. What right do you have to call someone weird because they think you are attractive. This is what gets me, me speaking now, I have a mirror I have no illusions that I am a beauty. I hate the way I look. When I said that to her she called me an arrogant bitch and what right do I have to decide what anyone else finds attractive. That hit home and I try not to say anything anymore. I don't understand though and it makes me super uncomfortable. Talking about feeling icky, that is what I feel like inside when someone compliments me. Like somehow I have misled people and I feel so ashamed. Anyway, enough of that. :) I am 49, spent almost all of those years alone and I am woefully inadequate to deal with some of the situations I have found myself in the last few years. My younger brother was being an ass one time, just biting remarks to everyone that day, he told me it is easy to have life figured out when you are not participating, easy to talk about relationships when you have never been in one. God, I was so mad at him but he was right. Hopefully I figure some things out before I die.

;) You give up too easy, never know when some studly do right or daring damsel might sweep you off your feet. Life is kind of odd that way.
Hugs
Michelle

Quote from: IAmM on February 10, 2019, 07:31:04 PM
It was! Stuffed cabbage and mushroom pierogies. Takes a while to make but worth it.

Lol, old hag indeed! Don't look very old or hagish in your profile pick. :)

Yeah, I would not say I was beautiful or anything, kinda plain really. I do love my hair. I don't understand it and it freaks me out, I used to bad about it. Called people weird until a friend got on my case about that hard. What right do you have to call someone weird because they think you are attractive. This is what gets me, me speaking now, I have a mirror I have no illusions that I am a beauty. I hate the way I look. When I said that to her she called me an arrogant bitch and what right do I have to decide what anyone else finds attractive. That hit home and I try not to say anything anymore. I don't understand though and it makes me super uncomfortable. Talking about feeling icky, that is what I feel like inside when someone compliments me. Like somehow I have misled people and I feel so ashamed. Anyway, enough of that. :) I am 49, spent almost all of those years alone and I am woefully inadequate to deal with some of the situations I have found myself in the last few years. My younger brother was being an ass one time, just biting remarks to everyone that day, he told me it is easy to have life figured out when you are not participating, easy to talk about relationships when you have never been in one. God, I was so mad at him but he was right. Hopefully I figure some things out before I die.

;) You give up too easy, never know when some studly do right or daring damsel might sweep you off your feet. Life is kind of odd that way.
Hugs
Michelle

Well Michelle, I am really way older than you.  I am pushing 76 pretty hard currently!  I don't give up, I am just a realistic person.  I look about 20 to 25 years younger than my biological age, and that is because I am an intersex person, who never got adult skin.  I still run around in the world with some kind of baby skin.  Each time when I go to a skin care place, they can't believe that an older adult can have this kind of skin, and are ranting and raving about my skin!  Well that is at least on advantage of being intersex, the other advantages were that I did not have to do much to my bodies appearance to look female, because it was always mostly female looking to start with.  But it does not hange the fact that i am well into my 70s, and I do not frequent any places anymore in which I could run into my future lover!  if this person does not find me, I may never get a partner again!

Have a really pleasant night!
Linde

I read this thread and I actually kept thinking about it for a while.

Art offers a broad spectrum of interpretation.  I have seen somethings called "art" and I just scratch my head.  I then shrug my shoulders and move on.  For some, art is an extreme passion.  It doesn't stir me the same way.  Neither position is right or wrong, it just is.  Choose your own art.

Having discovered my gender dysphoria last year, I have become extremely aware and sensitive to all things feminine.  I feel things personally that I never felt before. 

I never liked drag just like I never liked stripper bars.  I now know why.  I made my choice not to go and I make my choice not to watch but I have to side with Kim regarding drag. 

It is hard to separate the intent, mocking women or mocking men who want to be women?  I am very sensitive so the humor is lost and the insult is felt.

Is a Virginia governor insensitive for using blackface  as a Halloween costume?  Should we just laugh off his artful expression or is his costume a statement of insensitivity and possible hostility.   All is subject to interpretation.

I didn't want to go so deep but I feel the endless pain shared on this website and truly wish the world really understood who we are.  If there was more acceptance there would be less sensitivity.  Then drag would just be funny.

Okay forget drag as art, it is not important to the issue at all. I don't believe the appropriateness of the Virginia governor's actions can realistically be compared to the issue either. It seems to be stacking to add weight, if we are going to get to the bottom of the problem it is probably best to get rid of everything that is not the problem. So in that interest let's forget everything that came before, my opinions, everything. It looks like you summed it all up well.

Quote from: Emma1017 on February 11, 2019, 03:33:23 PM
I didn't want to go so deep but I feel the endless pain shared on this website and truly wish the world really understood who we are.  If there was more acceptance there would be less sensitivity.  Then drag would just be funny.

I wish that I was better at turning thoughts into coherent sentences. To me this is important, for us and them, so I will make the attempt. Then I will let it go, we are adults, these are feelings, it's not on anyone else what we carry in head. It has been brought up though and the question has been asked.

I do understand what so many are saying, it is near and dear to us and having someone treat it in a manner that appears so frivolous can feel like a personal attack. Put together with the fact that so many people in the world don't see the distinction and it can feel almost like it has everything to do with us. It doesn't though, it's not about us and this question is our mountain to climb, not theirs. If there was acceptance, if there was less sensitivity, these are conditions. Moreover conditions that would make it more comfortable for us, not them. They are embracing who they are and flaunting it in the face of those conditions. :) Maybe even because of it. Like them or hate them but it is not about us, that is their mountain or maybe amusement park but they pay their dues and they are not hurting anyone. Wait, I know they are hurting us right? Are they though? If there was acceptance and less sensitivity would they be hurting us? If all of the women around me are a head shorter than me and it makes me feel awkward, out of place and bad inside, is it anyone's fault? Is it their height or mine that is the problem. Neither, it is how I view my height or how I believe others view my height because it is more pronounced by those around me. It would be kind of silly to blame their height and if you think about it just a silly to blame mine. I am not trying to add weight here, just trying to point out that the two heights as unrelated as drag and transsexuals. We may cross paths at times, there are transsexual drag performers and there are women that make me look tiny. Trying to find a comparison that may not have internal turmoil for everyone. :) Ah hem, I will confess that the height thing has caused me some turmoil, I spend so much time with women that are shorter than me, they are my friends though and I don't blame them. Why would I blame them? That was my mountain to climb and I did, :D I don't even feel like hugging every tall girl that stands next to me anymore. A pretty cool parallel in that analogy, many drag performers have nothing but respect for transsexuals and many women wish they were taller. Sorry, that last bit was for my own amusement. ;) Just kidding, I am not sorry one bit. Suffer!

I tried so many times to be a part of the trans community. I didn't have to, I had already made it through the storm of awfulness that is the beginning of transition. I didn't need help, I was hoping to help others and be with people who could understand that part of me. It never happened, I was out of place in every group that I went to. At first I tried to give what tips that I had, no one wanted them. Then I tried to just listen and be supportive even though the topics were not relevant to me and for the most part never were. I didn't offer any opinions or personal experiences, just gave an ear to hear and a shoulder to cry on. It got to the point that even when we did dinner after group I was mostly quiet and just listened to the stories and conversations that I really didn't understand or care about and that seemed to be okay with them. I felt like a mascot. I can stand up for myself but there was no need, I wasn't part of the group and they wanted nothing from me but my presence. Then I see them at pride and they would not talk to me, they barely looked at me. Anyway, no more about that group. I have been to groups that more than one of the members hit on me. Never went back to those for that reason alone but they had excluded me as much as the first group. I went to a picnic with a trans friend that I met long ago here, we are very different but that has never mattered, it was no different there except she included me as often as she could. It was funny how they would immediately shut me out, usually by ignoring me and talking over me. Don't get me wrong, it was a beautiful park on a beautiful day and after I got over being annoyed I sat by myself and enjoyed the afternoon. At least by then I knew it was okay that I didn't know or care anything about computers, hockey or subs and doms. It was okay that we were different and I had already given up on being a part of the community 5 months before at the Keystone Conference. Not going to bother talking about that. I had already learned that I did not fit in but hoped that I could enjoy the company at the picnic anyway, but that didn't happen. This has a point, though I don't think many will like it. I reached out to the trans community when I no longer needed to. I have a couple of trans friends that I enjoy so much that they are stuck with me forever, they both live far away though and I rarely get to see them. I have since met someone here that lives closer, she is pretty great and I hope that standing her up the last time we were supposed to get together doesn't keep us from becoming closer friends. (I am sorry babes, my family hardly has anything to do with me and still they manage to mess up my life.) I have cis girlfriends that fulfill all of my other friendships needs. My one friend questioned why I felt a need to be a part of the community, You are a girl, the world sees you as a girl, wasn't that the point? I know some of it was that she has known about me and supported me 20 years before I knew transition was possible, now that I had everything I ever wanted she didn't understand how I could need more than the support that she already given. She kept reminding me that being around trans people that don't pass will make it easier for people to see that I wasn't born a girl. She actually feels vindicated now that I don't try to be a part of the community anymore. Hey, friends are not perfect. She won't go to pride with me either, I enjoy the drag show and the festive atmosphere. I still wanted to spend time with people like me though, that understood that one part of me that she is not capable of understanding. I never found that no matter how hard I tried. My giving up doesn't make me feel relief, only sadness. Here are the two points that may not be popular.

When I had dinner with those women in my group that didn't pass very well at all, most didn't even try, I didn't mind if was harder for me to pass. I passed all of the time, I could live with not passing for a short while, I had experienced it all before. I just wanted to be with people like me and it wasn't any discomfort for me. The fact that they treated me like a mascot only has to do with point two. Point one, them not passing and possibly me not being able to pass because of that was not on them, they were just being themselves. Me passing or not and how it made me feel was a war that I had already won. People knew and accepted me for me and I earned that. Some people will never accept if they know but they are few and are no more responsible for how I deal with passing or not than those women that did not pass very well did. I am responsible for me and unless something horrible and extremely unlikely happens I will rise or fall in this life because of me and I would have it no other way. It is not them and they are not responsible, our discomfort is ours alone.

Being a mascot is my interpretation, but it was clear that I was not part of the group and became more clear when among the rest of the community they wanted nothing to do with me at all. In the community I was of no interest but outside of the community I was, well I don't know what I was to them. Showpiece or buffer maybe? Not a part of the group but they were thrilled that I was there. I have been an outsider before but in my adult life never more than at the trans conference. Even when I didn't pass, there were awful people but there were good people too, people that included me. There I was just alone and it was such a relief the few times in the day that my young friends and their parents were around. It wasn't that we understood one another or that our interests were similar, but that they talked to me, even when the trans boy's mom asked me to go to the bathroom with her. Everything felt normal and there wasn't any more awkwardness than normal for people just meeting. They talked to me and not just a polite smile and hi, answer any question I might ask then scooch away. The drag performers that I met didn't have that wall between them and me and the ones that know about me have enjoyed talking about makeup(They know much more than me, but I loved talking about it), hair, clothes and even men. They asked for my opinion on their presentation and advise. One very young girl was transitioning and though we were very different we had a lot to talk about, felt like talking to my one niece to be honest. Point two, those mostly gay men were more accepting and comfortable to be around than every trans group I have ever been to. I have so little in common with them and they are so bold and bizarre that it left me speechless at times, but they didn't shut me out.

This will probably be the only community that I will be part of. I like it here and there are many, many wonderful people. The reason I still am a part of it though is because, we don't have to get to know each other to share common interests, I won't be shut out because I am different ( lol, maybe if I am a jerk though) and even if I am I can just log off, and I don't have to sit at a table with you all and be ignored. I can be excluded here but the investment I give is what I want when I want. Sounds kind of selfish huh? I do like the community here for the most part and seeing a community of good people point fingers to another spoke in the trans umbrella, well, it bothers me a lot.

More than anything it is because this feeling is ours to deal with not theirs. They have their own problems and they are just being themselves. If they were hurting anyone I could understand, wait, is being catty and judgmental hurtful? If so there are a lot of people that should be locked up, like my one aunt. Please lock her up, really it would be doing the world a great favor. I am kidding, most of the drag performers are nothing like that. When we have to police people that offend us though aren't causing actual harm, where does that end?

Sorry this is so long and that I can't proofread it right now. I will try to get back later to fix any mistakes.

In the meantime, words of the terribly inept but entertaining Bill & Ted,

Be awesome to one another.
Michelle

Michelle, until recently I did not know any trans person, but had several cis women, who helped me to become a woman.  It is nice to have good cis friends, but sometimes, as you said, one needs to talk to people who are very similar in their experience.
First I tried to join an LGBTQI?????? Meetup group, and that was a similar disaster you described.  It turned out that all of the 10 people who were there, were homsexuals, and it seems they had a nick for BDSM.  Thy did not even really recognize me when I sat down at their table.
I am a very assertive type A person, and I tried several times to be included in the conversation, but they simply ignored me, as if I was an intruder!
This was he last time that I go to that Meetup group.  I still get the invitations, and it sounds good in their emails, but once burned........
A little later I went to the local transgender group (my therapist is the facilitator), and I really like it there. Of course, there, too are some people I don't care for much, but those are in any group, no matter whether trans or cis.
I now feel part of a community who tries to help each other.  Now I know at least some people who I can relate to with part of my life!  I don't necessarily need this, but it feels kind of good!

I would never go to those conventions, because one can imagine that the uber Trans People go there, I don't want to be one of them!

Gay Pride here was a joke, they did not want trans people to actively participate!  That much about Gay Pride for me!
It seems to be the same homosexual activists that did the Meetup, too.  They can do it without me, I don't even waste my time to go to any of the events!  I'd rather spend that time with my cis friends, they like and accept me, trans is not even at the horizon of any of our conversations.  It is just older girls yapping!

Quote from: Emma1017 on February 11, 2019, 03:33:23 PM
I read this thread and I actually kept thinking about it for a while.

Art offers a broad spectrum of interpretation.  I have seen somethings called "art" and I just scratch my head.  I then shrug my shoulders and move on.  For some, art is an extreme passion.  It doesn't stir me the same way.  Neither position is right or wrong, it just is.  Choose your own art.

Having discovered my gender dysphoria last year, I have become extremely aware and sensitive to all things feminine.  I feel things personally that I never felt before. 

I never liked drag just like I never liked stripper bars.  I now know why.  I made my choice not to go and I make my choice not to watch but I have to side with Kim regarding drag. 

It is hard to separate the intent, mocking women or mocking men who want to be women?  I am very sensitive so the humor is lost and the insult is felt.

Is a Virginia governor insensitive for using blackface  as a Halloween costume?  Should we just laugh off his artful expression or is his costume a statement of insensitivity and possible hostility.   All is subject to interpretation.

I didn't want to go so deep but I feel the endless pain shared on this website and truly wish the world really understood who we are.  If there was more acceptance there would be less sensitivity.  Then drag would just be funny.

I was actually going to bring up the blackface issue earlier in the thread but decided I didn't want to go there.  (You know me - I am so afraid to give my opinion  :D )  It certainly is not an equivalent IMO blackface is far more offensive however ...  there is a similarity. 

Before I transitioned I always thought I was open minded - I believed in inclusion - supported gay marriage - have black friends LOL ( I love that line it sounds so stupid )  in reality though my 'other mother' is black.  Yada yada - but since transitioning I am really feeling it for other marginalized groups.  My view has become much more empathetic to others.

On the other hand I don't want to become so 'sensitive' that nothing is funny - I love teasing my friends.  The one way to know I like you is if I tease you but there is a fine line between teasing and mocking.

Where does drag fall ??  I don't know - I just know it bothers me.

Emma - You mentioned strip clubs - I always hated those.  I have been 4 times.  Once in college with a bunch of buddies it was a spur of the moment thing - what could I say?  Once while snowmobiling - we were freezing and stopped for a drink and the other 2 times work related.  Work related you say ?  Yeah when I worked at Hertz a couple of the senior executives were real pigs IMO and made it some weird male bonding crap.

I always felt uncomfortable.  I am attracted to women and only been with women sexually ( so far  ;)  )  but it just seemed gross.  Not that I disliked their bodies but the whole leering at them thing made me feel creepy.  Also it made me feel different than the other guys - I guess because I really wasn't one of the guys.

Maybe I was empathizing with the women IDK.

I love drag queens, but there is a line where it isn't quite fun any more. Haven't had anyone mistake me for a queen, I'm just not outgoing enough for anyone to make that mistake!

Quote from: KimOct on February 13, 2019, 12:06:56 AM
....

Emma - You mentioned strip clubs - I always hated those.  I have been 4 times.  Once in college with a bunch of buddies it was a spur of the moment thing - what could I say?  Once while snowmobiling - we were freezing and stopped for a drink and the other 2 times work related.  Work related you say ?  Yeah when I worked at Hertz a couple of the senior executives were real pigs IMO and made it some weird male bonding crap.

I always felt uncomfortable.  I am attracted to women and only been with women sexually ( so far  ;)  )  but it just seemed gross.  Not that I disliked their bodies but the whole leering at them thing made me feel creepy.  Also it made me feel different than the other guys - I guess because I really wasn't one of the guys.

Maybe I was empathizing with the women IDK.

I was a car salesperson for a major franchise and spent many weekends away doing "car stuff" but in the evening you can guarantee they all wanted to go to the strip clubs or the brothels. Apart from being married I really hated going to the "men's clubs" and would quite often buy a beer and sit in a corner somewhere on my own steadily getting more and more sloshed rather than interact with the women or the other guys I came with...I just hated the places

Maybe like you I felt some sort of kinship...I was always more interested in their shoes and costumes than anything else LOL

Liz

I agree Liz and Kim.  I was always jealous of strippers and their bodies, not the dancing.  I wanted to be them.... and then go shopping for clothes. 

IamM I brought up the blackface issue earlier not to be polarizing but to illustrate that times do change.  Things that were once acceptable are no longer.  That is what I hope happens for us.  I said to my therapist that my generation, the baby boomers, is, hopefully the transition (no pun intended) phase for our acceptance.

I realize that that acceptance starts with me.  It has been a year long battle for me.  I hope that if I transition I have the courage to be public and push that acceptance further out among family and friends.  I really don't know yet that I do.

AoifeB some drag queens are really funny.  Some, like the rest of society, can be cruel.  The problem with drag is that the really narrow people use it to justify their anger and rejection but maybe drag is helping the middle ground people to stop being afraid of us.

Comedians like Eddie Izzard make me feel good about myself AND he makes me laugh. 

I really think we need to be able to laugh more.  God knows we have had enough sadness.

Hugs,

Emma

Kim and Liz, the stip club thing seems to unify us, too.  Living in Europe, the evere existing presence of Stirp Clubs were nothing special for me, but I disliked the sleazy atmosphere of them.  I probably was in one 3 or 4 times , once with my wife and parents!  We lived only a few hours by car away from Paris, and my parents, the wife and I decided to drive there for a week end.  Going around Place de Pigalle, with all it's strip clubs, my mother said that she really would want to go into one once in her life.  My mother said later, she actually enjoyed the show.  But man clubs in Paris do stripping not as sleepy as others, and make some kind of entertaining art show out of it.  Anyway, my mother liked it, and was glad that we went in!  For me, this episode was not as entertaining, because who would want to go with their parents into a strip club?
Otherwise, I felt and still feel around the entire night life stuff centering around female, be it strip clubs, bordellos, call girls or whatever, very degrading and wish it would not be there.  Yes, many of those women have really pretty bodies, but I don't like what they are doing with those bodies!

 :) Yeah, what we like or don't like, approve or disapprove of, those are our things. My exhaustive wall of nonsense is just what I have taken away from my experiences. Gah, if you can you believe it, that was more annoying to write than to read!

The blackface issue was serious beyond this to a point that I wish we could let that drop. It was part of a persistent, culture wide dehumanization of an entire race that should in no way be used as an example or an exclamation point for any other modern topic.

Bah! My views and I am done preaching. The Other Woman, one of my favorite movies, makes several jokes at transsexuals' expense and I struggle with that. On the one hand here is a movie that I could see a good bit of my relationships with my friends in, on the other they really push the trans issue into a negative light. And my friends think that I am being too sensitive, You are not like that, no one sees you like that so why does it bother you so much? The thing is it is still me, no matter how different I am from the majority of the trans community or how much I am excluded from it, at the center there is an undeniable sameness. I don't know the answers. I do know that I am tired of our culture of censorship, and a lot of how I react to many things is pushing back against that. Pay no attention to me. Lol, my one trans friend and I have had to develop an agreed to disagree attitude to a lot of issues. I won't express my views here anymore.

Yep, strip clubs and things like that are not for me either. There are girls that love them, and not just the male strip clubs. I do like the men but I don't have any desire to ever go to one of those again either. It was fun once, an interesting experience to say the least and I don't regret going but it is not for me. I think that I am indifferent to female strip clubs, I don't want to be them and I don't care one way or another to look at them, they are making money though and people seem to enjoy it so, okay. Honestly, I hate high heels the closest that I have is a pair of wedges that I never wear. My sister took me to a really expensive strip show one time that was really good. It didn't feel the same as other things that I had seen, it was a story with men and women and I thought it was beautiful. Made us both cry at one point which seem counterproductive to what a strip show should be about. My last roommate and I have been friends since high school and she loves boobs, and kissing girls but I don't think she a lesbian or ever had sex with a woman, sorry, got off track. She says that I was too critical of the women, I don't think so. At some point my mind needed something to keep it occupied and I started to compare them but not that one was better than others or that anything was unattractive. Oo, oo, I have the perfect analogy for the thread. My older brother lllloooooooovvvvveeeesssss drag and he used to make me go every year to a three day event with him. I only went one day, there are not enough guns in the world to make me go three. Seriously how do you look at cars and watch them drive down a short road for three days? Sorry, it is so lame how much enjoyment I get out of stupid things, still makes me smile that you were envisioning my brother making me go to a drag show with him. ;D It was mind numbing to me for almost the same reason that stip clubs are, the noise and my indifference to the subject matter. Then again, I don't think anyone has ever gotten a sunburn at a strip club. Curse you fair skin! Thinking about the sun I believe I got a sunburn on my elbow just now.

Oh my god, there I go again! Seriously, I am not like this in real life, I talk much, much less. And I am always smiling. Hmmm, seems the me here is actually the anti me. Sorry?

Laters

I haven't had time to read every post here, but I'll point out that before the term "transgender" was common and before it was feasible for most AMAB folk with feminine presentation to have "normal" lives and not be relegated to the dregs of society, a lot of people who would probably now be classified as transgender were called (and called themselves) "drag queens" or just "queens". These people tended to spend time in gay/queer bars like the now-famous Stonewall Inn, and the constant harrassment they received is part of what sparked the Stonewall riots.

I'm not certain what relation these past "drag queens" have with what we'd call a drag queen today, but it's worth pointing out. Additionally, literally anyone with a penis who was caught wearing women's clothing could be (and often were) charged with a crime and arrested, no matter whether they were "transgender" or not. Police would actually strip someone's clothes off and inspect the genitals. In this respect, both "actual transgender people" and crossdressers/drag queens were all in the same boat, no one really made a distinction in those days.

Quote from: Lucca on February 13, 2019, 03:33:01 PM
I haven't had time to read every post here, but I'll point out that before the term "transgender" was common and before it was feasible for most AMAB folk with feminine presentation to have "normal" lives and not be relegated to the dregs of society, a lot of people who would probably now be classified as transgender were called (and called themselves) "drag queens" or just "queens". These people tended to spend time in gay/queer bars like the now-famous Stonewall Inn, and the constant harrassment they received is part of what sparked the Stonewall riots.

I'm not certain what relation these past "drag queens" have with what we'd call a drag queen today, but it's worth pointing out. Additionally, literally anyone with a penis who was caught wearing women's clothing could be (and often were) charged with a crime and arrested, no matter whether they were "transgender" or not. Police would actually strip someone's clothes off and inspect the genitals. In this respect, both "actual transgender people" and crossdressers/drag queens were all in the same boat, no one really made a distinction in those days.

That about sums it up.  We could be out, but only in certain parts of town.  In San Francisco, there were queens who performed in clubs, sex workers, and in the late 60s, kids looking for a place to crash, coming to San Francisco with flowers in their hair...  I got caught in one such raid, a street sweep in the Haight, hauled to juvenile hall, charged with a "false personation" morals charge as my top buttoned the wrong way for my genitals, and handed over to my parents.  There was no differentiation between orientations and gender identities, all lumped together as 'homosexuals'.  :(

There were regular police raids, particularly when an election was coming up.  It was almost a 'round up the usual suspects' scene in the Tenderloin, especially at Compton's Cafeteria, where a lot of the queens would hang out, checking in with each other to see who had made it through the night.  (I got "Dutch Auntied" by one of the regulars.). I think at that time, 1968-69, "transgender" as a word might have appeared in a few papers.  Harry Benjamin, the endocrinologist who came up with the first modern medically supervised hormone replacement therapy and transition protocols, had just started working with the city's public health department on a program that would eventually divert the queens for treatment if they so chose.  (I heard nothing about this at the time, but my late father-in-law had worked with Benjamin on the public health department side.)

I love topics that tangent on to other interesting topics.  :)  Lots of interesting views here - I love it.  And yes IamM
I did think you were talking about a drag show.   :D

And I realize I have to correct my strip club visits to 5.  I forgot (how could I )   When I was 15 years old we went on a school trip to London and France.  If I was a parent I would have killed our chaperones.  I grew up a lot in 10 days.
Anyway one of the sanctioned visits was to the Folies Bergere.   It is a long time ( 100+ yrs ) cabaret and Paris institution which also has naked women. 

OMG  I was 15 seeing my first naked woman.  When we got the itineraries at home before the trip my grandparents were shocked it was on there.  They knew what it was and they were paying for the trip LOL.  So yeah I started going at age 15 - well sort of.  It's supposedly sophisticated.

The view Michelle and Kim had during the 60, and probably 70's was absolutely different from the one I had living in Germany at that time.  By the early 60's, prostitution was made legal, and the ladies of the night had to undergo weekly health checks and had to pay taxes on their services.  I think anybody could run around in any kind of clothing, and nobody really cared.  Naked bodies and sexual interaction was shown on public TV channels during prime time, it was just not a big deal anymore.  But I still did not like the Drag Queens in Germany, because they were so into your face and seemed to be oversexualised that they were found in the red light districts only!