Susan's Place Transgender Resources

MTF, pre-everything, appointment for HRT in May. I'm one of those trans girls that thought for years it was "just a fetish." My sexual fantasies were always first and foremost about me being a woman. I've never had much in the way of strong sexual attraction for other people; my feelings for women were a confusing mix of envy that I mistook for attraction, and I haven't found myself idly fantasizing about any men in particular. I do notice that my female self-ideation fantasies often involve sex or companionship with some faceless, identity-less male figure, and I've wanted to cuddle a lot with guys (which, in embarrassing hindsight, I manifested for a long time as being the wacky friend with no concept of personal space -_- ).

I read a lot about people finding their sexuality after transition, so I'm curious what I may discover with HRT. I thought I'd reach out in advance and see if any other trans women had an experience like this, wherein they fantasized about being with some notion of a man (I'm reminded of the line from "When Harry Met Sally" wherein Sally says, "I miss the idea of him") but didn't have specific sexual fantasies about specific men (at least prior to transition). I'm also wondering if those that might've had such an experience developed different feelings after or during transition.

People who are not trans women are of course welcome to share as well, I just aimed this question at trans women since that's what I am.

I can totally relate to all of this.  The feeling that "it" is a fetish (whether it was cross dressing, or the desire to be a woman, or an envious feeling, or a deep sense of being a lesbian trapped in a man's body, etc).  Though I did at times question my sexuality and orientation, I never had any sexual or romantic experiences with men.  (Though I was also like that overly friendly buddy!)

I've been on HRT now for a few years and one of the biggest surprises has been that, as I began to feel safe to be myself, I also found that i really enjoyed attention from men.  I really enjoy being held and handled by men, such as in dancing.  It all sort of struck me when I realized that his masculinity made it safe for me to be more genuinely feminine.  I'm usually really cautious about generalizing masculine and feminine attributes but there was a very physical response-- not merely sexual, but an ease and comfort that I had NEVER felt before in a relationship.

I don't have a high sex drive (never did) but when I feel this with a guy, it feels better than sex ever did, and I want more!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: AliceOrKelly on February 21, 2019, 07:04:12 PM
I read a lot about people finding their sexuality after transition, so I'm curious what I may discover with HRT.

         AorK, if ok to call you that, suppose a 'Welcome' is in order and really do feel as if your experience somewhat shadows mine in the sense that "physical predisposition"₍₁₎ accounts for a lot, but feel it's not something extensively discussed around here. If you've had experiences and/or fantasies regarding "other males" prior to HRT then chances are that will also carry over into your transition future or, to put more simply, basic orientation is set and is not really going to change. I chalk it up to how much "homophobia" was ingrained in the first place as many "trans", once set in their "woman ways", never seem to get past that basic male inhibition.

        Recently found an interesting study on "transgender defense mechanisms" I've been wanting to post perhaps you'll find this helpful too? Sorry NOT DUMPING THIS ON YOU IN PARTICULAR look forward to your reply/participation and trust you'll not become another "one post wonder"!

(1):as opposed to the more nefarious "dysphoria" only Current members don't let the context references to dreadful "Blanchard" put you off seems like this study has a much healthier, unbiased approach!

Quote from: AliceOrKelly on February 21, 2019, 07:04:12 PM
MTF, pre-everything, appointment for HRT in May. I'm one of those trans girls that thought for years it was "just a fetish." My sexual fantasies were always first and foremost about me being a woman. I've never had much in the way of strong sexual attraction for other people; my feelings for women were a confusing mix of envy that I mistook for attraction.

I read a lot about people finding their sexuality after transition, so I'm curious what I may discover with HRT.

Hello AliceOrKelly

I highlighted your first part only as that is how I previously felt.

I always had a strong desire to be a little girl and then later to go through puberty girl to woman and then to be a woman; I also had a small attraction to a small number of women but which I believe was mainly one of envy AND ALSO one of genuine attraction and hence these feelings to me were in unison and not in competition or confusion.

I have never had any sexual feelings towards men. However please see my next comment in reply to Miranda.

Although I have always been mainly asexual with a minor attraction towards women and therefore am now mainly asexual with minor lesbian tendencies, I leave my future sexual orientation open as who knows the future? However I strongly expect it to remain as it is.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: MirandaLove on February 22, 2019, 12:17:09 AM
I can totally relate to all of this.  The feeling that "it" is a fetish (whether it was cross dressing, or the desire to be a woman, or an envious feeling, or a deep sense of being a lesbian trapped in a man's body, etc).  Though I did at times question my sexuality and orientation, I never had any sexual or romantic experiences with men.  (Though I was also like that overly friendly buddy!)

I've been on HRT now for a few years and one of the biggest surprises has been that, as I began to feel safe to be myself, I also found that i really enjoyed attention from men. 

Hello Miranda

I have explained my position above but just wish to add that I felt and feel precisely the same as you. Previously and now no sexual or romantic interest in men but now Yes really enjoying the attention of men (and still nothing more).

Hugs

Pamela 

Hi, AliceOrKelly!

Welcome to Susan's Place.

I can relate to a lot of what you say.  In my younger years, I experienced my dysphoria as sexual confusion, which left me isolated and inexperienced.  I, too, dismissed my desire to be a woman as a fetish.  I eventually (like, in my sixties!!) realized that the confustion stemmed from wanting to both BE a woman and BE WITH a woman.

Who we get attracted to is all over the map.  Some trans women are attracted to women all their lives, some are attracted to men all their lives, some are attracted to both, and some find that their attraction changes when they transition.  There really is no way to predict how it will go for you.  This is one case where "your mileage may vary" (YMMV) is literally true.

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) to tell the members about yourself.  Here is some information that we like to share with new members:

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	Cautionary Note (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,82221.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)

@AliceOrKelly 
Dear AliceOrKelly:
     I am so very glad that you have become a member here.  I am happy to see that you found the Susan's Place Forums.

     Our lovely member  @KathyLauren  has Officially Welcomed you to Susan's Place and the Forums....  you are now a part of a wonderful community of like-minded members in a place that we can all help each other.

    As you post on the forums you will be able to exchange thoughts and comments with others that are experiencing many of the same things that you are.   I expect that you will be getting many members offering their thoughts and suggestions as you continue to post here. 

    This is the right place for you to be to find out what others may have to say that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.
    There are a lot of members here that will be able to identify with your situation and as you continue to feel free to share with all of us.

    I also want to warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place. 
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

    As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members.  When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
     ***There is a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new like-minded friends here. 

    Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
   
    In her Welcome Message to you  KathyLauren  had attached important and informative LINKS that will help you to navigate around the Forums and will allow you to enjoy the features here.     
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.

Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
Danielle

@Scotia63   
Oh, and another thing Scotia...
As our lovely member  @KathyLauren    suggested please plan to write a post and tell us more about yourself in the Introductions Forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) so that other members will be aware of your arrival... therefore you will be able to share your thoughts with more members here.
     
Thank you again for joining Susan's Place and being involved in the Forums here.
Best wishes to you,
Danielle
NOTE: Now after all of this Greeting Stuff I will let you have your thread back so you can pursue answers to your questions.
Other members here will certainly be along to give you their comments and suggestions that you may be seeking

Welcome, AliceOrKelly -

I can also relate to what you have posted. First thought it was a fetish until it hit me what it really is.

You are bringing up a very interesting point about attraction and changes occurring. It is not uncommon to ask questions in this area during your transition.

For me personally, I was always attracted to women. HRT has had an interesting effect: For the first 3 months and interest slowly went away. It came back after about 12 months in a stereotypically female way (much more into cuddling, more about slow sensations). My general attraction to females had not changed.

However... since I have set a surgery date, the situation has become a bit more interesting. While for a relationship, I still see my interest in women, I have started getting curious about being with a man. My dreams right now are about 50/50 men and women. While women are usually the "relationship" and more "Cuddling" style dreams with full body and faces (yeah sometimes people I know), my dreams about men are mostly about having fun and getting to satisfy my curiosity about how it will feel after surgery. These dreams are usually limited to a torso.

I would guess my attraction is still around women at this point. But who knows what will happen in the future.  Well, I know what will happen: I am married, so nothing will happen  :D.

Hugs,

Sarah

Quote from: AliceOrKelly on February 21, 2019, 07:04:12 PM
MTF, pre-everything, appointment for HRT in May. I'm one of those trans girls that thought for years it was "just a fetish." My sexual fantasies were always first and foremost about me being a woman. I've never had much in the way of strong sexual attraction for other people; my feelings for women were a confusing mix of envy that I mistook for attraction, and I haven't found myself idly fantasizing about any men in particular. I do notice that my female self-ideation fantasies often involve sex or companionship with some faceless, identity-less male figure, and I've wanted to cuddle a lot with guys (which, in embarrassing hindsight, I manifested for a long time as being the wacky friend with no concept of personal space -_- ).

I read a lot about people finding their sexuality after transition, so I'm curious what I may discover with HRT. I thought I'd reach out in advance and see if any other trans women had an experience like this, wherein they fantasized about being with some notion of a man (I'm reminded of the line from "When Harry Met Sally" wherein Sally says, "I miss the idea of him") but didn't have specific sexual fantasies about specific men (at least prior to transition). I'm also wondering if those that might've had such an experience developed different feelings after or during transition.

People who are not trans women are of course welcome to share as well, I just aimed this question at trans women since that's what I am.

I resonate with this in many ways, I have no attraction to the masculine at all. in fact most men are huge red flag turn off for me. too much baggage in that area. This led to much confusion as my femininity grew,right up till I became very close to a lesbian friend who told me my feelings are normal for a female attracted woman. Coupled with my wife being bisexual has cleared my confusions. As friends I can love men but I can never love a man as completely as I love women in general. My friend calls me her man hater and that I am a more radical lesbian than her, but it is just a joke between us. I admit envy when I see a woman with her eye makeup on point and her nails done flash.As for cuddles? it does not get more intimate than being on the couch with my wife and maybe a friend watching a movie cuddling under a warm blanket. The thought of cis-male energy in that moment is not good for me.
We all are so different and yet the same. To me that is beautiful 
Besos (kisses)
Mariabella

I definitely relate to almost everything you have to say, it could almost be my own story.  It is odd to be over forty and to be unclear on what my sexual orientation really is, but this is all a very 'interesting' journey.  I expect I will get some clarity as I go further in transition (I just started HRT a couple of weeks ago).

For me, I have just decided it's ok not to know, and am working on building comfort with non-sexual affection/touch with both genders.  I've never really been comfortable with sex, case in point, all five of my sexual partners were the initiators the first time and most subsequent times after.  Sex with women never felt 'right', but it felt more right than the alternative, except in fantasies, as you describe, where I was a woman.

I am loving the decrease in libido from HRT so far.  I feel so much more at peace.  I will eat more chocolate and forget about sex for a few years.

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 22, 2019, 06:53:56 AM

Who we get attracted to is all over the map.  Some trans women are attracted to women all their lives, some are attracted to men all their lives, some are attracted to both, and some find that their attraction changes when they transition.  There really is no way to predict how it will go for you.  This is one case where "your mileage may vary" (YMMV) is literally true.

Oh, Kathy I love you for saying this. Thank you!

I would add one thought. In my opinion, I would not lay a change in orientation at the feet of HRT as a stand alone. The whole process that can create a change in orientation is more complicated. In a transition, there is a tremendous perspective change. Maybe I should be careful not to over generalize, so I will use a case I am familiar with. Transitioning can change how you relate to men and women. What was once familiar, guys for example, can become less understandable, less relateable and foriegn. You tend to stop comparing where you are in the pecking order to not being in the pecking order at all.  You might have had some homophobia but you also may not have had it. You may have had your true sexuality squeezed and distorted by being a gender minded female in a male life full of male situations. How can some folks understand themselves fully orientation wise when things on your body are so wrong. Reminder, this is not true for everyone. Aligning the body with the mind also has an affect on how we think. Some folks able to function sexually in a male capacity before, no longer have the male genitals and adjustments have to be made. Mostly this doesn't cause gender change but I am saying, for some, it is part of the process. I am really just saying it is complicated and maybe in some cases, things can't be predicted. Every outcome is okay if it is right for the individual.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 22, 2019, 08:31:38 PM
Every outcome is okay if it is right for the individual.

That says it all right there. 

For me, I had some really negative experiences when i was between 5 and 10 years old and shared my "curiousity" with my "buddies".  Likewise, I had negative experiences when i was separated from playing with the girls because we were too close.  Yeah, still trying to untie that stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just a quick comment to make the point that any "change" you might go through is not specifically due to hormones - they just don't do that. Any apparent change in sexual preference is down to already existing desires.

And for those prepared to point the finger at hormones, I ask you this. How? By what mechanism?

Quote from: PurplePelican on February 23, 2019, 03:23:49 PM
Just a quick comment to make the point that any "change" you might go through is not specifically due to hormones - they just don't do that. Any apparent change in sexual preference is down to already existing desires.

And for those prepared to point the finger at hormones, I ask you this. How? By what mechanism?

Thank you for your diagnosis!

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 23, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
Thank you for your diagnosis!

Anecdotes are not science. And the existing science just doesn't support the idea that hormones can change sexual preference. One of the many methods trialled to "cure" homosexuality in the 40's and 50's was hormones, it had no success - and probably cost Turing his life. There's no known mechanism by which this can happen.

Can your apparent sexual preference change as a result of transition? For sure, it happened to me. It's not at all uncommon, as I discovered when I discussed the concept with my therapist and gyno. They both made comments along the lines of, "Yes, I've found that happens during transition, it's a sign of growing self acceptance."

Quote from: PurplePelican on February 23, 2019, 10:06:43 PMit's a sign of growing self acceptance."

That certainly resonates with me

As I stated several times already. I am mostly asexual (I have not have any sexual relation or the last 15 or 16 years), and my libido is pretty much in the sub-basement.  If I would want to have a relation, I feel that this would be with a female, even if it is cuddling ony, I would feel more comfy cuddling a femle body.
I tried several times over the last few weeks to find men attractive, but it did not work that way.  I think a few men liked me, but I just can't get any positive vibes for men.
I still will try to keep an open mind, and wonder if my feelings ill change after the effects of my orchi show some results.

I really would not mind to be Bi, because it makes the pool for possible partners so much larger, but I don't know how I can get myself to feel this way!
Stupid brain and emotions!

Linde

As you know we are both mainly asexual and I must say I agree absolutely with your first para - cuddling much much better for an asexual person!

However one difference between us, I think, is that you may wish for a relationship in the proper sense in the due course of time. I do not. That is fine if you would consider that, as we are all different.

My strange position is that I do not seek a relationship at all because I am satisfied with friendship or would be satisfied with cuddling but I do not rule out the possibility that I could one day wish and even find a relationship!

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on February 24, 2019, 09:13:43 AM
Linde

As you know we are both mainly asexual and I must say I agree absolutely with your first para - cuddling much much better for an asexual person!

However one difference between us, I think, is that you may wish for a relationship in the proper sense in the due course of time. I do not. That is fine if you would consider that, as we are all different.

My strange position is that I do not seek a relationship at all because I am satisfied with friendship or would be satisfied with cuddling but I do not rule out the possibility that I could one day wish and even find a relationship!

Hugs

Pamela

Pamela, I was like you.  I have a lot of friends, but lately I feel kind of lonesome.  The friends go home when the street lights come on, and I am alone.  It is not the sex, it is sitting together with a person you care for, and reflecting on the past day (probably with a beverage of your choice in your hand), and talking about the upcoming days.  And after that going to bed together and just cuddle, have the so much needed skin contact.  And in the morning, having a cup of coffee together in bed, just tops this of!
It could be that I am that way now, because I am on the road to womanhood for many years already, and lately feel secure enough in my femininity,  to be a female partner in a relation?  I don't know, but I feel a real big void in my life, and wish I could fill this void with a loving partner!

Quote from: Dietlind on February 23, 2019, 11:11:16 PM
As I stated several times already. I am mostly asexual (I have not have any sexual relation or the last 15 or 16 years), and my libido is pretty much in the sub-basement.  If I would want to have a relation, I feel that this would be with a female, even if it is cuddling ony, I would feel more comfy cuddling a femle body.
I tried several times over the last few weeks to find men attractive, but it did not work that way.  I think a few men liked me, but I just can't get any positive vibes for men.
I still will try to keep an open mind, and wonder if my feelings ill change after the effects of my orchi show some results.

I really would not mind to be Bi, because it makes the pool for possible partners so much larger, but I don't know how I can get myself to feel this way!
Stupid brain and emotions!

I too am largely asexual but with a definite attraction to femmes. I have self identified as lesbian since my wife and I got together. I do not think she took that as seriously as it was meant till recently. If I could live out this life in the company of ONLY women I would be very happy. I find there is a dynamic when men are present which triggers childhood issues that have  grown beside my acceptance of my female truth. I do not "hate" men I just really have no use for them or there ways.

Hello Mariabella

Yes, there are so many of us transgirls who are asexual which is perhaps not surprising if we are born with the "wrong equipment"! I honestly don't know (having thought about it for decades) whether if I had been born cis, would I still have been mainly asexual.

I am certain the asexual percentage of transpeople is significantly higher than the asexual percentage of the population as a whole.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: Chloe on February 22, 2019, 03:22:22 AM. . . look forward to your reply/participation and trust you'll not become another "one post wonder"!

A&K I see, know your "lurking"?

Quote from: pamelatransuk on February 25, 2019, 05:27:02 AMYes, there are so many of us transgirls who are asexual which is perhaps not surprising if we are born with the "wrong equipment"!

So, not to be offensive, but if "lesbian inclined" then what's one's excuse post-SRS aren't we again "with the wrong equipment"?

       The question remains "have you ever allowed men to love you in turn"? Orientation is not necessarily something that is ingrained from day one but rather is learned in spite of what initial instincts and convictions might want or claim. It' can also be "body over mind" (ie: as opposed to "socialization") depending on what predispositions and experiences ultimately come into play. If you had asked me 40 years ago would have said "love women definitely not gay" but that was before subsequent male "attentions" only served to confirm what amounted to a non-sexual, identity only based attraction toward women in the first place.

       A submissive introvert myself surely one could indeed ask "is gay culture, socialization the reason why I am now a classic, homosexual inclined transgender"? Liking men "as a transwoman" has been a tough, "high road" to follow the point is "asexual" is often imposed upon us it's not always just "a professed choice"!

Quote from: Chloe on February 25, 2019, 06:46:27 AM
A&K I see, know your "lurking"?
So, not to be offensive, but if "lesbian inclined" then what's one's excuse post-SRS aren't we again "with the wrong equipment"?

I don't think so!  Natal lesbian women do have the same equipment, which means, the equipment we want to get after SRS.
My male equipment quit working as a male thingy about 16 or 17 years ago.  This si probably one of the reasons why I am aseual.  If I don't have anything to do sex with, I don't do it at all!
And my recent surgery made sure that that thing down there will never be useful to do some sex stuff with!  I hope that SRS will change this for me!

Quote
       The question remains "have you ever allowed men to love you in turn"? Orientation is not necessarily something that is ingrained from day one but rather is learned in spite of what initial instincts and convictions might want or claim. It' can also be "body over mind" (ie: as opposed to "socialization") depending on what predispositions and experiences ultimately come into play. If you had asked me 40 years ago would have said "love women definitely not gay" but that was before subsequent male "attentions" only served to confirm what amounted to a non-sexual, identity only based attraction toward women in the first place.

I know that at least one aspect for me not wanting to have anything to do with men is the only way one could have intercourse with me in my current condition.  Both, my wife and I extremely disliked/dislike any kind of anal interaction.  We sure tried it, but we both hated it!  There is no reason in the world that would convince me to get into a situation in which I would need to do this.  I think I would simply freak out!

Quote
       A submissive introvert myself surely one could indeed ask "is gay culture, socialization the reason why I am now a classic, homosexual inclined transgender"? Liking men "as a transwoman" has been a tough, "high road" to follow the point is "asexual" is often imposed upon us it's not always just "a professed choice"!

I am the opposite of you, I am a very assertive extrovert, your classic type A personality, and i think for me, in my current situation, being asexual is the only solution.  I am pretty happy that my libido is somewhere on the bottom of the sub basement, and I have not to deal with any sexual desires at all.  I think my orchi will even strengthen this no libido situation, because zero testosterone doe not turn me into a hottie!

I don't know how I would feel after SRS, but I never found a male penis to be a very attractive looking body part (again, this is my very own feeling, and I do not want anybody to feel bad about it), and i don't think that this feeling will ever change.

I think I've always been open minded sexually. But I've never been able to relate to men. Maybe it comes from a truly screwed up upbringing. I think I mentioned in a previous post somewhere that pretending to be a dude is the most incredibly exhausting thing I've ever tried to do.

Having sex with men can be great. I don't mind top or bottom. Whatever works in moment. But I've never been able to make an emotional, romantic connection with a man. The last time I tried to do it, I found myself falling into an incredibly abusive cycle, and it wasn't healthy. At least for me. And it really did cause me to do some pretty deep introspection. I've been intimately involved with women exclusively ever since.

Before hrt, I was feeling sort of dead and numb inside. I was angry, I was afraid, I was lonely. It was a rough time for me that lasted for years. After hrt, I feel like I came alive again emotionally. There have been some disadvantages to this, but I did realize that I love my wife. More than that, I realized I'm in love with my wife. Completely head over heels. Thinking about her gives me goosebumps and butterflies. I feel like we connect well, and I don't really see that changing anytime soon.

Quote from: Monica on February 25, 2019, 11:00:30 AM. . . I feel like I came alive again emotionally. There have been some disadvantages to this, but . . . I realized I'm in love with my wife. Completely head over heels.

        Yea think that's great Monica & Linde ;D perhaps I misspoke, poor choice of words suppose I just have a hard time imagining "lesbian" is what some cis women really want but, of course, your right! Do know my "wife experience" has been a total nightmare so suppose I'm "damaged goods" but also do know it's not from anything specific I've chosen or done (otherwise why is she still here?) Linde, non-performing "impotence" is certainly something many cis-men share with us as well so don't beat yourself up!

        I forget the author but (paraphrasing) "Act in such a way that what one decides within one's own heart should become the basis of a universal, world morality/way of thinking" (a twist on doing unto others as would have them to yourself) It has been my experience that women being more into "emotional relationships" than "sex" is total myth, an urban legend it's more likely the precise other way around . . .

        Makes one wonder . . . still find myself "falling in love" with a women every now & then started my new restaurant job last Saturday and *connected*, made repeated, wordless mutual eye contact with a young lady eating alone that still haunts to this day but, being a diehard *romantic* like I know I am, finding a true *soulmate* only borders on tragic 'cause I know it's not really about "sex" but rather . . . lol Lord Knows (been.there.done.that) how many girls I've frustrated in the past! It's just not LOGICAL to me don't feel as jf women naturally, emotionally *connect* in the same way men do to begin with!
         I ramble . . . but do feel like it's truly a mind-bending, horrible AGENDA! In all the four seasons of Star Trek Enterprise "Trip" (and their cloned baby) both wind up DEAD and T'Pol is simply left to her own devices! @Julia says it's too "political" perhaps she's right are we indeed smack in the middle of a huge war of the sexes?

Quote from: Chloe on February 25, 2019, 06:46:27 AM
So, not to be offensive, but if "lesbian inclined" then what's one's excuse post-SRS aren't we again "with the wrong equipment"?

       The question remains "have you ever allowed men to love you in turn"? Orientation is not necessarily something that is ingrained from day one but rather is learned in spite of what initial instincts and convictions might want or claim. It' can also be "body over mind" (ie: as opposed to "socialization") depending on what predispositions and experiences ultimately come into play. If you had asked me 40 years ago would have said "love women definitely not gay" but that was before subsequent male "attentions" only served to confirm what amounted to a non-sexual, identity only based attraction toward women in the first place.

       A submissive introvert myself surely one could indeed ask "is gay culture, socialization the reason why I am now a classic, homosexual inclined transgender"? Liking men "as a transwoman" has been a tough, "high road" to follow the point is "asexual" is often imposed upon us it's not always just "a professed choice"!

Hello again Chloe

I disagree with only one part of your post - the first para - as frankly I think that, after GCS a lesbian or an asexual with minor lesbian tendencies would have the right equipment. I note in your subsequent comment to Linde that you accept her/my point.

I agree that after GCS I would consider allowing a man to love me and would at the time consider whether or not to reciprocate.

I agree that my feelings for the female body are primarily of envy but occasionally I feel both envy AND AT THE SAME TIME a feeling of romance. So the feelings for me are in unison and not in competition. Non-sexual identity based interest or attraction for the most part as you say.

Wishing you well liking men as a transwoman. Leaving all options open for me but suspecting I may live happily as an asexual transwoman

Hugs

Pamela

I don't even know if I am a suitable person for any of those more or less analytical comparisons.  Mother nature decided to make me into this rather unusual human construct, being part male and part female (the way it seems about 1/3 more female than male).  I seem to always have had more female type of emotions (albeit covered up with the manta that a real man does not cry), but all women I have been involved with romantically were of the opinion that I seem to be more on an emotional level with them than any other man they knew.
This makes me wonder, if I was all my adult life some kind of lesbian, and just was hiding this well by being an almost perfect male cross dresser, acting like a heterosexual person?  If that would be the case (I have no idea how to find proof for this), I never changed my sexual orientation a bit, and just am in the process now, to exchange the parts to operate it?

It is pretty early in the morning, and i am not ready to hurt my brain already with trying to analyse this.  I am just happy with stating that I always liked women, and that I have the feeling that I always will like them, no matter what shape my body has!

Quote from: Dietlind on February 26, 2019, 07:21:34 AM. . . if I was all my adult life some kind of lesbian, and just was hiding this well by being an almost perfect male cross dresser, acting like a heterosexual person? 

           lol ;) ;D Well suppose that's the whole point isn't it? I've obviously, *prior to ex*, been practicing at being a good "non-hetero style lesbian" too? The only real difference being, coming from trans/homosexual relationships in the past, I've learned to appreciate the other side as well? If stuck in the binary then opposites attract am perhaps (obviously?) logically over-thinking this wayyy too much!

Quote from: 'Romanticism'. . . a mood which pervades much of western life during the past two centuries is hard to define except in terms of opposites. The romantic temperament responds to emotion rather than reason, is excited by mystery rather than persuaded by clarity, listens more intently to the individual conscience than to the demands of society, and prefers rebellion to acceptance.

Read more: historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa73#ixzz5geHKwtwr[/size]

Quote from: Chloe on February 26, 2019, 08:55:52 AM
           lol ;) ;D Well suppose that's the whole point isn't it? I've obviously, *prior to ex*, been practicing at being a good "non-hetero style lesbian" too? The only real difference being, coming from trans/homosexual relationships in the past, I've learned to appreciate the other side as well? If stuck in the binary then opposites attract am perhaps (obviously?) logically over-thinking this wayyy too much!
Read more: historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa73#ixzz5geHKwtwr[/size]

I think I am as binary as a pair of shoes.  There is only a right and a left one,  Two right or two left ones would not fit (I also feel that this example really stinks, but it sounded really clever when I thought about it!)

Question was asked if one had allowed the love of a male as orientation can change. That is if I got the drift correctly. To which I would have to be honest and reply that I could never be with a man again. Childhood abuse makes a more fluid sexuality not for me even as my gender is going from femme male to full femme. I am a damaged human but have found myself and know the boundaries in which I can negotiate. So for my own well being and comfort I choose to keep the company of women and am doing all I can to make my long term marriage work. This said if it does not wirk out. I believe I would look for another trans woman who had similar feelings about things. Such an odd sensation to now look at women not only sexually but also as role models for my own feminine persona. Seeing feminine beauty with both a desire and sistership? Whatever it is it is kind of confusing and also exciting. This has been a positive in my relationship as my wife knows she will still be beautiful to me and that my love is for her.
At sixty becoming a naturally at ease woman may well be beyond me. That said changing enough to no longer present male and with that be the guy in the room. I will be quite happy as one of the girls. Rambling coffee response prolly rambles all over. Thanks for your post it is thought provoking

Quote from: Mariabella on February 26, 2019, 09:04:40 AMI am a damaged human but have found myself and know the boundaries in which I can negotiate.

Hey Mariabella appreciate 'lil input & Welcome to the He-Woman Abuse Haters Club? (lol a ref to "The 'lil Rascals"). My *damage* only came at the hand(s) of women (and marriage?) and NOT men but then again am slowly, due to the impossibility of older age, starting to finally get over that as well? Am like a foolish teen who'd luv to fall into an "identity based love relationship" again but ultimately don't think that's ever gonna happen so Good Luck with keeping your current one together!

Quote from: Dietlind on February 26, 2019, 09:01:56 AMTwo right or two left ones would not fit

Female and/or Male is TOO MUCH! To clarify as much as I'm attracted to, identify with certain (not all) woman I don't think, never thought it's fair, given my age old decision to pursue transition, to expect another woman to simply accept that which I cannot (ie: a strictly "lesbian" relationship)!

( ps: lol Power Company just left non-pay "cutoff notice" on door just had to dash & check if "green" solar inverter "AC Grid Available" light still on! Phew! Oh yea, completely FORGOT am losing it genset would have started if grid power is lost!  :-\ )

Quote from: Chloe on February 26, 2019, 11:42:42 AM
         Hey Mariabella appreciate 'lil input & Welcome to the He-Woman Abuse Haters Club? (lol a ref to "The 'lil Rascals"). My *damage* only came at the hand(s) of women (and marriage?) and NOT men but then again am slowly, due to the impossibility of older age, starting to finally get over that as well? Am like a foolish teen who'd luv to fall into an "identity based love relationship" again but ultimately don't think that's ever gonna happen so Good Luck with keeping your current one together!
Female and/or Male is TOO MUCH! To clarify as much as I'm attracted to, identify with certain (not all) woman I don't think, never thought it's fair, given my age old decision to pursue transition, to expect another woman to simply accept that which I cannot (ie: a strictly "lesbian" relationship)!

( ps: lol Power Company just left non-pay "cutoff notice" on door just had to dash & check if "green" solar inverter "AC Grid Available" light still on! Phew! )

Are you running all solar now?
Want to spend a little time in Florida?  I am a pretty good looking woman  >:-), a little older, but still pretty OK   ;D

I mean, I would do a lot for a nice solar installation! :angel:

Quote from: Dietlind on February 26, 2019, 11:55:02 AM
Are you running all solar now?

I mean, I would do a lot for a nice solar installation! :angel:

Ok your ON . . . but let me get a 'lil "new employment" under me'skirt so we've got a 'lil extra "jingle" to play with first! I'll only run The Best, fully automatic iron-core (pure sine-wave) off-grid OutBack system(s) which they do guarantee for a full 5 years! Was one year only when 1st purchased but, in revising it since, they honored 5 for mine as well!

As a transman who is pre-t and is attracted to masculinity, I have wondered about this myself. If I'm ever attracted to a female, they have to be very very masculine (don't care that much as to what's down stairs.)

Quote from: OliverR. on February 26, 2019, 01:15:14 PMIf I'm ever attracted to a female, they have to be very very masculine

Oliver Welcome to our endless this/that thread I'll introduce you to my "ex" . . .

. . . lol who'll break you of that notion QUIK! ;)
Always had a great respect for you FtM's! ( a distinct third possibility Linde in our ever-expanding binary universe of "male/female"?) Ah! Just has a thought! What 'bout "alien"? Surgically altered Vulcan ears? Think I'd be "cute" *for the guys* do ya's think insurance might cover it?

haha vulcan ears wouldn't be bad, they could even be attractive.... ;)

Quote from: OliverR. on February 26, 2019, 01:15:14 PM
As a transman who is pre-t and is attracted to masculinity, I have wondered about this myself. If I'm ever attracted to a female, they have to be very very masculine (don't care that much as to what's down stairs.)

Exactly! I am attracted to feminine presentation. Plumbing is irrelevant and unimportant when sex is not your primary motivation but compatibility and love is. I love women, I love feeling I AM  a woman in my very bones. The acknowledgment and fully owning of this truth is a freedom that makes me giddy in the parts of me which were quashed before. My libidinous drives are all of a submissive but fully engaged nature and I am learning to defer to my wife's lead overall. Sexual expression between us has always been very fluidly lesbian/ with penetrative sex for her. While I no longer have this ability in parts designed that way, we have come up with even more satisfying methods for her which do not trigger my dysphoria over the dangle drops I hate so completely. The rest is shrunken by T blockers to the point it is more like her than like it once was. Her hysterectomy made this almost convenient as traditional penetrative sex is painful for her now.
the "bottom" line for me is anal play will always trigger a rape response in me. I am submissive but only can trust women with my submission and I get quite negatively forceful about dominant male expression. I am not healthy enough for GRS so I accept my reality as it is. I am working harder at my wife's acceptance of this change than I am at changing. I spent sixty yrs getting here and will spend what ever is needed for her to get here too,or I will bow out and let her go. I will not let my dysphoria this late in life become a selfish thing that discounts her needs too
More rambling ramble. So long keeping quiet it seems to be spilling out.
I wish you all Love. However you desire it I wish you all love.   

Quote from: Chloe on February 26, 2019, 01:39:48 PM
Oliver Welcome to our endless this/that thread I'll introduce you to my "ex" . . .

. . . lol who'll break you of that notion QUIK! ;)
Always had a great respect for you FtM's! ( a distinct third possibility Linde in our ever-expanding binary universe of "male/female"?) Ah! Just has a thought! What 'bout "alien"? Surgically altered Vulcan ears? Think I'd be "cute" *for the guys* do ya's think insurance might cover it?

I wrote somewhere around here that I might be able to get involved with a trans person of any gender.  Because there is this special bond of having the same development and hardship we went through.  I think it would be easier to understand how the partner "ticks" if the ticking is not following the standards of society (and we know what dysphoria means!!!!)

Thinking about it, I feel that I would prefer to have a trans partner over a cis partner!  I think I might feel comfortable with either gender trans!
What a screwed up brain I have!

Quote from: OliverR. on February 26, 2019, 01:59:18 PM
haha vulcan ears wouldn't be bad, they could even be attractive.... ;)

Well, at least they would help to keep a cap from falling over the eyes!

Quote from: Dietlind on February 26, 2019, 03:24:20 PM
Well, at least they would help . . .

OMG this surgery I would seriously consider!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNDA5YTEzMzEtMTFjNi00MzllLWI1YmQtZTlhODY5NzVkN2E0XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzQ3Nzk5MTU@._V1_.jpg)

Could always go *stealth* and claim fairy tale elf instead!
( Cate Blanchett in The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (2012)

Like T'Pol's true Vulcan ears (http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/guide/season4/oe22.jpg) even more!

Quote from: Chloe on February 26, 2019, 05:52:18 PM
OMG this surgery I would seriously consider!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNDA5YTEzMzEtMTFjNi00MzllLWI1YmQtZTlhODY5NzVkN2E0XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzQ3Nzk5MTU@._V1_.jpg)

Could always go *stealth* and claim fairy tale elf instead!
( Cate Blanchett in The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (2012)

One could always comb the hair over the ear tips, and blend in with the other pretty ones!

It would not help Oliver a lot!  Because she has the looks he wants to leave behind! And I don't believe that he would want to look like Spock?  :embarrassed: