Susan's Place Transgender Resources

 Has anybody out there FTM or MTF been able to pin-point the mythylogical POINT of NO RETURN for transition. On the weekend I was preparing for a sons 9th birthday wearing a t-shirt dress and floaty skirt. My hair was tied up femme style.

When it was time for other parents to arrive I put on some board shorts and a smart casual shirt. While I was changing I asked my wife, " Do I look like I have tits in this ? "

She said," Yes but no one will really care. "

I untied my hair and brushed it out. She remarked about my wardrobe saying-

" You have got to stop buying clothes, you have as much female attire as me, it has got to stop ! "

I got to thinking I wish I could spend the evening in female apparel. I spent the evening enjoying the company of mothers and fathers and boys and girls presenting fully male.

I am so glad I'm on HRT and I dont have to be in male mode all the time. I would hate to return to 100% male life again, I hope I can give my  femme self more freedom - I am yet to go out publicly as a woman but I would love to.

Am I at the transition point of no return ? No I dont think so. If I wanted to return to full male again I could- its just that I dont want to (too depressing).

I haven't had any male fail yet but I have had the hard stare when in public with t-shirt, shorts & ponytail.


For everyone out there did you find THE POINT OF NO RETURN or was it a totally incremental process?

  With kind regards, Kirsten.

 

Hi Kirsten, good post and topic.

  The process was definitely incremental for me, a layering of changes. It becomes harder and harder to return to the previous life as more time is spent in the proper context (for you and I it's female). In a sense we compartmentalize life to survive, only to find the switching back and forth can wear us down. I personally got so tired of it, that eventually my life circumstances told me it was "time for full time !" So that "Rubicon crossing", a.k.a. the point of no return for me was in 2013 when I finally came out at work, changed my legal name / gender, that was the final part of my compartmentalized life that fell by the wayside socially. Physically my "Rubicon Crossing" was GCS in 2016, there was no turning back physically, not a chance, that irreversible decision and course of action was the correct one in hindsight. So today we look forward, we move forward, all at our own pace as life allows. That's awesome you enjoyed the birthday party with the others Kirsten, sounds like a nice time. Given what I see of your avatar picture Kirsten, your "male fail" in public is imminent  ;), get ready, it's coming...Every day you are taking HRT it's changing you, and it can sneak up on you, you read others post of this, how they were changed more than they realized at any one point in time....

Hugs

Cynthia -

Kirsten My point of no return was when I decided to transition but I know that is not what you are asking.

IMO the point of no return is when you go public.  I know some people de-transition which is fine.  Do what you think will make you happy but once you go public the cat is out of the bag.

I am all about living authentically and yet it is important to look before you leap.  Once someone decides it is who they are and what they want then it is necessary to find the courage.  While you can turn back once people know they will always know.  Unless you have one of the Men in Black (movie reference ) devices.  :D

One day while I was looking in the mirror, I was taking stock of my life so far. I was unhappy. I had suppressed my transgender feelings for over 50 years, my prostate was acting up even after having gone through the standard treatments, and my marriage was falling apart.

At that moment, I said to myself, I am going to transition. I had no idea how effective HRT would be, but I decided to just go ahead and transition. I made a plan on how to finance this. But the most important thing I did was to accept the results even if I did not pass very well. After 4 years of HRT, FFS and weight loss, I  am satisfied with who I am.

While many of us test the waters, so  to speak, we all must make a decision to transition or not. This is not a decision to be taken lightly as there are many consequences of transition that are not very pleasant. There is a  price to pay.

However, if you chose wisely, the sense of peace afterwards is priceless.

Probably the final tip point was walking into work wearing a blouse, skirt and boots.

I finally accepted that it wasn't my problem - I've now come to realise that it never was.

Quote from: KimOct on March 31, 2019, 09:35:33 PM
IMO the point of no return is when you go public.  I know some people de-transition which is fine.  Do what you think will make you happy but once you go public the cat is out of the bag.

Kim, I sorta agree, but how public is public?  I am part time out publicly in the community, all my extended family knows, most of my friends know, some of my co-workers know, but at work I still haven't gone past femme jeans, femme hairstyle and casual femme shirts (not blouses yet).  So I'm working in that direction, yet I'm not on HRT and have no plans for surgery.  Could I go back (at a psychic cost)?  Yes, and eventually my public would forget about my "phase".

Quote from: Cindy on March 31, 2019, 11:26:19 PM
Probably the final tip point was walking into work wearing a blouse, skirt and boots.

I finally accepted that it wasn't my problem - I've now come to realise that it never was.

Thank you Cindy for this perspective.  You are exactly right about whose problem is this anyway?  And I admit, wearing a blouse and skirt to work is still over the horizon for me (I work in a 90% male environment, Information Technology Network Support, bunch of #$%^ geeks  :D )
Randy

Quote from: KimOct on March 31, 2019, 09:35:33 PM
Kirsten My point of no return was when I decided to transition but I know that is not what you are asking.

Pretty much this.  I knew I had to try and had no plan or idea what I would do if for some reason I couldn't take the hormone therapy.  I've never had second thoughts or thoughts of stopping.

I suppose I could hide any physical changes I currently have if I wanted to weigh 260 again.

I did legally change my name a year ago so that might be a point of no return.

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It is incremental, I think. 

For me, the most important point of no return happened some time during the months when I was procrastinating about coming out to my wife.  After waffling a bit, I realized that I HAD TO move forward.  I suppose I could have backed out right up until the point I began to speak, and in fact I did back out at that point quite a few times before I got the words out.  But that experience showed me that backing out would lead to depression, so I knew I had to move forward.

Going full-time was a point of difficult return: you can't take it back.  But by that time, I was on HRT and emotionally committed to proceeding.

On a personal level I was all in the moment I found out it was possible. I did go dears in the headlights outside the door of my therapist's office the first day. I guess that was the point of no return for me.

However publicly the point of no return was simply when I couldn't hide the changes anymore. This took about eight months despite which because of fear I didn't come out until nine months which led to months of male failing.

Getting an orchiectomy was the point of no return for me. I knew that once I did it, I wouldn't be able to go back even if I wanted to.

I feel that there are different PNR's along transitioning.

My *personal* PNR happened when, together with my wife and my two teenager sons, we decided that I'd transition.

My *social* PNR was my coming out at work. From that moment on, even if I wanted to go back it wouldn't be possible without at least moving to another country (I live in a rather small country and I work in a rather restricted field - the chance of chit-chat would be far to high to prevent the dissemination of such a savoury gossip).

My *physical* PNR was my FFS, which gave me an irreversibly feminine face. I also tend to believe that FFS was my *absolute* PNR, from which, no matter the effort, I would never pass as a guy anymore. Fortunately, that idea never even crossed my mind. [emoji6]

Hugs, Sarah

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My point of no return was all mental head space stuff. My wife and I were pursuing a sort of split life, safe space being out and visibly Tia, other spaces keeping him around. It got to the point that my life as him was cross dressing. I had already begun hrt and was working through electrolysis. One late night I realized that this living in two worlds had to end. I could not continue to pretend to be someone that I wasn't. But I had promised my wife that I would never have surgery, would never take her man away, would never force us to come out to our real world people and families. That night I realized that I would have to either break all my promises to my wife or end it all because I could no longer live a lie. After surviving that night and deciding to fully transition, my wife bought in and we put the plan into full swing.

Tia Anne

Only 6 months in, but I think I am on a similar road to you Kirsten.  Fully transitioning is too painful for my family, and yet there's no way i want to return to the repressed version of who I was. Far happier now, but mildly concerned that the issue will be forced as HRT progresses.  My goofy new Kaiser endocrinologist suggested that at 6 months,  I've seen most of the changes I can expect. Nice guy, but I'll be asking for a new endocrinologist with a little more experience in the transgender department. Hope he doesn't turn out to be right.

I did pass one new point of no return, after adding 3 inches to my hips/rear, this morning found that I could no longer fit in any of my men's jeans,  so officially switched to my women's jeans and put all my men's jeans in the Goodwill box. Some tiny sign of progress finally.

Kirsten:

Both of us seem to weave in and out of each others thread.  This process is a constant battle between our hearts and minds.  As much as I hate to admit it I know that I will also hit my personal point of no return.  I am trying to delay it but I know it is coming.

You and I know that we can't stop the joy we feel as we see the changes that we have waited a lifetime to experience.

Hugs,

Emma

Quote from: Kate.claire on April 02, 2019, 02:29:48 AM
Only 6 months in, but I think I am on a similar road to you Kirsten.  Fully transitioning is too painful for my family, and yet there's no way i want to return to the repressed version of who I was. Far happier now, but mildly concerned that the issue will be forced as HRT progresses.  My goofy new Kaiser endocrinologist suggested that at 6 months,  I've seen most of the changes I can expect. Nice guy, but I'll be asking for a new endocrinologist with a little more experience in the transgender department. Hope he doesn't turn out to be right.

I did pass one new point of no return, after adding 3 inches to my hips/rear, this morning found that I could no longer fit in any of my men's jeans,  so officially switched to my women's jeans and put all my men's jeans in the Goodwill box. Some tiny sign of progress finally.

At six months it's a little early to say that transition has peaked. Six months is about when the changes start to be noticeable. There are things all the hrt in the world won't fix but the really subtle stuff doesn't completely become evident until about a year.

I by far have not reached any point of no return, but I do expect that the moment when HRT effects would become visible that would be my point of no return.

However, looking back there were a couple of points of no return of some kind, for example coming out to my wife, I can't roll back to how things were before. Or dressing for the first time or the first time out in public, these were all formative events that pushed me further along on my journey and I learned new things absolut myself and these things I can't roll back either.


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Thanks for the encouragement, Natalie. I figured my doc doesn't know what he's talking about.  Still, I keep my expectations super low, then no matter what happens, it's all upside.  😂

Yikes Kate.Claire I never thought to measure my hips!!! I just started my 5th month on low HRT.  I am hoping to get through the summer stealth male.

Those PNRs are sneaky.

Quote from: Emma1017 on April 02, 2019, 11:21:17 AM
Yikes Kate.Claire I never thought to measure my hips!!! I just started my 5th month on low HRT.  I am hoping to get through the summer stealth male.

Those PNRs are sneaky.

Unless you're really young your hips won't get any wider then they already are but fat distribution could help some.

My hips started off a little over 40 inches and I have narrower shoulders then most so I'm a bit of an aboration.

Right, to be clear, my bones are the same as ever... my hips went from 40.5 to 43, but it's all just a bigger rear really. A lot more cushion... my wife's favorite pillow now when laying on the beach. Starting an exercise program again, so probably going to go back down. Hopefully my hips will look better with a smaller waist anyways.

Quote from: Kate.claire on April 02, 2019, 12:39:55 PM
Right, to be clear, my bones are the same as ever... my hips went from 40.5 to 43, but it's all just a bigger rear really. A lot more cushion... my wife's favorite pillow now when laying on the beach. Starting an exercise program again, so probably going to go back down. Hopefully my hips will look better with a smaller waist anyways.

It's all relative. As long as your shoulders are not drastically larger then your hips you'll be ok.

My shoulders are roughly 40 inches right now. I'm losing weight and literally all the measures are shrinking here and there but my shoulders will never go below 39 inches because that is the bones size. My hips thankfully are currently 44 inches but used to be 40 inches before hrt really kicked in. I'm in the process of losing weight and so far my hips have receded an inch but my waist has receded four inches.

I don't know if I ever had a point of return, because my body started to change by itself more towards the female side.  Most of my life I had a hard time to convince persons that I indeed was a man, and once my breasts started to grow a few years ago, it became even harder.  That point could have been considered as the turning point, but I could not stop it anyway.  I still don't feel any super effects from HRT, and I have to see if changes are happening faster now that I had my orchi  And this orchi, of course, will prevent it for ever that I can be a man again!

Quote from: NatalieRene on April 02, 2019, 01:01:16 PM


My shoulders are roughly 40 inches right now. I'm losing weight and literally all the measures arem shrinking here and there but my shoulders will never go below 39 inches because that is the bones size.

40 inches?!  Like all the way around your shoulders with a tailor's tape?  OMG girl,  you are tiny!  I feel like a beast at 48 inches....my chest band size alone is 38 inches.  Best I can hope for is a slimmer Alice the Goon.🤣

Quote from: Kate.claire on April 03, 2019, 03:07:58 AM
40 inches?!  Like all the way around your shoulders with a tailor's tape?  OMG girl,  you are tiny!  I feel like a beast at 48 inches....my chest band size alone is 38 inches.  Best I can hope for is a slimmer Alice the Goon.🤣

Yeah. I've always felt like my shoulders are too wide but growing I avoided all upper body strength building because I feared bulking up. My chest band right now is 36 and my cup size is a C. I try to count my blessings.

38 isn't bad for a chest band size. You're also fresh on HRT. If you have a lot of upper body muscle your shoulders might shrink down a few inches. You might get down to 46 and maybe 44 inches.

I must have lost an inch or two.  I am down to a little below 43 now, and I may be lucky to loose a little more, which would allow me to fit into L  (size 14) tops!
I am afraid that I am becoming a tiny wee little bit of a girl!   >:-)

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 04:57:16 PM
I must have lost an inch or two.  I am down to a little below 43 now, and I may be lucky to loose a little more, which would allow me to fit into L  (size 14) tops!
I am afraid that I am becoming a tiny wee little bit of a girl!   >:-)

Fitting clothes is difficult at the moment. upper torso is a size 8 at the moment but lower is closer to a size 14 because of the waist line. So I wear mediums. As I lose weight and the waist shrinks it get back down to my size 8 frame size.

Quote from: NatalieRene on April 03, 2019, 05:40:29 PM
Fitting clothes is difficult at the moment. upper torso is a size 8 at the moment but lower is closer to a size 14 because of the waist line. So I wear mediums. As I lose weight and the waist shrinks it get back down to my size 8 frame size.

I will be able to reach your size, once hell freezes over!  I am pretty sure that I have to settle for something like 14 tops and 12 bottoms!

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 06:30:28 PM
I will be able to reach your size, once hell freezes over!  I am pretty sure that I have to settle for something like 14 tops and 12 bottoms!

Size 12 is not bad.

Quote from: NatalieRene on April 03, 2019, 06:43:25 PM
Size 12 is not bad.

I think that I am currently around a 13 or so, some of 14 stuff fits, some is a little on the large side.  All depends on the manufacturer!
My real problem is the almost full absence of a waist!  I have a pretty good figure/shape for a guy, the problem is that I am not a guy, and I have not tried to be one for quite a while, but I just cannot shed this last bit of male looks on me.  It seems to hang in there and fighting for its dear life!
This forces me to wear waist disguising stuff, and that makes me some times looking fat!

For me the point of no return came fairly quickly.  I started HRT in March of 2015 and I had my name and gender changed in May of 2015.  I was fully out and living full time as myself.  Could I have stopped at that point?  Maybe, but the reason I moved so quickly was because I knew I was trans and I knew it was transition or nothing.  Once I had legally changed my name and gender and had publicly come out to my family, friends and employer I knew that there would be no turning back.  Six month into transition I had FFS and breast augmentation done and that totally sealed the deal.  Where that point of no return is different for each individual.  When you reach that point, you will know.

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 07:34:33 PM
I think that I am currently around a 13 or so, some of 14 stuff fits, some is a little on the large side.  All depends on the manufacturer!
My real problem is the almost full absence of a waist!  I have a pretty good figure/shape for a guy, the problem is that I am not a guy, and I have not tried to be one for quite a while, but I just cannot shed this last bit of male looks on me.  It seems to hang in there and fighting for its dear life!
This forces me to wear waist disguising stuff, and that makes me some times looking fat!

Yeah. I make a habit of checking the sizing charts. Ann Taylor, Bellambia and Sioni are brands I like. I've been starting to browse through the department stores again. I wish I had more money to spend on clothes. I'm smack in the middle of a move paying moving expenses, rent and a mortgage so I'm stuck with stuff from target and the clearance bins.

Quote from: NatalieRene on April 03, 2019, 08:08:02 PM
Yeah. I make a habit of checking the sizing charts. Ann Taylor, Bellambia and Sioni are brands I like. I've been starting to browse through the department stores again. I wish I had more money to spend on clothes. I'm smack in the middle of a move paying moving expenses, rent and a mortgage so I'm stuck with stuff from target and the clearance bins.

Tell me about moving costs!  When I moved from Minnesota to Florida  1 1/2 years ago, The move did set me back about $10,000!  I could have almost paid for half of my bottom surgery with that money!  But hurricane Irma came into my path, the closure for the house was set back, and I had to keep my stuff in very expensive climatized storage!

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 08:14:56 PM
Tell me about moving costs!  When I moved from Minnesota to Florida  1 1/2 years ago, The move did set me back about $10,000!  I could have almost paid for half of my bottom surgery with that money!  But hurricane Irma came into my path, the closure for the house was set back, and I had to keep my stuff in very expensive climatized storage!

Thankfully it won't be anything that bad. The pod company is going to cost about $3000 for the move to Texas and we'll pack it and unpack it while they ship it. The house I just want to get sold even if I don't make a bunch of money. I owe about $40,000 less then it's worth so I should walk away with something. Then I'm just going to rent a place in the area for a while before I commit to a house for the long term. I want to know I'll like the city first.

I had two points of no return. One coming out at work then expressing 2 work days later ( clothing was on order). The second point of no return was when the ordered clothing arrived at home and my wife (now ex) asked if I was going to come out at work. I said I had already and she said I will contact a divorce lawyer tomorrow.

My ex and I had an agreement on what she could tolerate. She changed the agreement to zero tolerance. I was not able to put Rachel back in the box. So then I was fee to be me but without her.

Quote from: Rachel on April 06, 2019, 01:10:10 PM
I had two points of no return. One coming out at work then expressing 2 work days later ( clothing was on order). The second point of no return was when the ordered clothing arrived at home and my wife (now ex) asked if I was going to come out at work. I said I had already and she said I will contact a divorce lawyer tomorrow.

My ex and I had an agreement on what she could tolerate. She changed the agreement to zero tolerance. I was not able to put Rachel back in the box. So then I was fee to be me but without her.

Thats interesting Rachel. Everytime I dress femme it causes domestic friction. The official line is. " You have got to stop dressing in womens clothes but I know you cant help it."

This means virtually every evening is a problem.

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Kirsten I am not even there yet.  My wife has no idea that I dress in gender (I hate "en femme" because I am not play acting). 

I know I will have a massive confrontation when I do.   I am hoping that my female body will be very obvious in male clothes by then.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 06, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Thats interesting Rachel. Everytime I dress femme it causes domestic friction. The official line is. " You have got to stop dressing in womens clothes but I know you cant help it."

This means virtually every evening is a problem.

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Kirsten - the quote 'but I know you can't help it" concerns me a lot.  I am not commenting on your wife as a person, I assume she is wonderful and you love her.  Also it sounds as though she realizes that you are not doing this as a whim so that's good too.  My concern lies with the "I know you can't help it". 

It's not her fault - she has also been conditioned by society her entire life to think that we are the subject of shame or there is something wrong with us.   I don't know where you see things going but I am going to be bold and suggest that you try educating her 'gently' with both articles and meeting with a transgender specific therapist.

Sorry for your struggle.

Quote from: Emma1017 on April 06, 2019, 07:20:45 PM
Kirsten I am not even there yet.  My wife has no idea that I dress in gender (I hate "en femme" because I am not play acting). 

I know I will have a massive confrontation when I do.   I am hoping that my female body will be very obvious in male clothes by then.

Yeah I hate the phrase 'en femme' also.  I am sure there are those reading that have no problem with it.  For me it reminds me of closeted cross-dressing or venturing out in public occasionally.  No big deal just a personal preference that I don't care for the phrase.  I prefer the phrase 'presenting as female'.  Tomat-oh vs Tom-ah-to.    Let's call the whole thing off - showing my age.  :D

Regarding your wife Emma that is going to be a real toughie.  Same advice applies to you as Kirsten but I know that is far easier said than done.

I know how difficult it is to walk the line of dysphoria and a significant others that is losing their husband to another woman. In this case the other woman is you.

In retrospect my ex really had no control over my actions. I allowed myself to be controlled and manipulated. When I grew my agency I started to realize she is entitled to the life she wants and I am entitled to the life I want. I had no intention of divorce or to cause a marital hardship. I understand her point of view and the need to be with a guy. I am the one the made a change in the marriage to a point she could not remain married. When I kept adding things that made me less dysphoric and suicidal how could I ever go back. Perhaps the point of no return was when I did my intake in January 2013.

On realization I have had (although it is not fair for me to write this) is that my ex chose being without me because she valued what she thought others would say over me being me. That is what hurt the most. Conversely, I valued Rachel more than I valued my ex's need to be in a Cis hetero marriage.

I had been struggling all my life to cope with being trans when in fact I just needed to let go and be me. There was a lot of pain and blame in my breakup. We ended the marriage with a mediator and the settlement was fare. I still see my ex and we go out to dinner once in a while. I stop over her condo and fix thigs and put together things and hang things.  Truth is I love her as much now as I ever did in the past. Part of me thinks some day we will be together again.

Letting go is scary; growing in a different directions than  my ex could tolerate was scary. Coming out is scary as well as expressing, makeup, surgeries and all the legal hoops. Standing in front of a judge in an open court room was not what I had in mind when coming out. I know these things made me stronger.

In some ways my journey has been harder than many for reasons I have mentioned before but having to cope with a spouse while in transition has to be extremely difficult.  Especially someone that you truly love.

While admittedly I have not lived it - I was divorced 9 years ago ( my crossdressing once in awhile was far down the list of our problems ) but as I was saying before I so rudely interrupted myself  :D

Although I was divorced before transitioning I am confident that anyone that has strong gender dysphoria and feels an urgent need to transition cannot possibly be part of a happy relationship long term if they continue to suppress who they are.  It just makes logical sense.

In retrospect I think my gender dysphoria indirectly affected me and my marriage.  Make no mistake my ex is truly a mean bitter person but there are two sides to every story.  I was very unhappy and I think a significant reason was my gender issues.  Definitely not the only reason but a major contributor.

Kirsten and Emma - I truly hope you can both stay with your wives and that things work out.  I know some people that have made it work.  Sadly they are the minority.

I do believe that in order to make someone else happy that you have to be happy yourself.  I can speak for myself and I believe many others here.  We will be with you through this when you want us.  I know I will.

Quote from: Emma1017 on April 06, 2019, 07:20:45 PM
Kirsten I am not even there yet.  My wife has no idea that I dress in gender (I hate "en femme" because I am not play acting). 

I know I will have a massive confrontation when I do.   I am hoping that my female body will be very obvious in male clothes by then.

You scub up extremely well though. I use "en femme" because I cant prove empirically that Im anything more than a cross-dresser. Public social interaction as my feminine self might prove something.

I blurted out one day I was going to cross-dress and I was met with icy silence. 3 years later it gets angry arguments.

Still Kirsten persists even after being put away in 1982 when I was 13.

I nearly suicided over this twice but now I have a strategy when things get bad. I have positive hopes for the future.

Kirsten x.

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Quote from: KimOct on April 06, 2019, 07:45:36 PM
Kirsten - the quote 'but I know you can't help it" concerns me a lot.  I am not commenting on your wife as a person, I assume she is wonderful and you love her.  Also it sounds as though she realizes that you are not doing this as a whim so that's good too.  My concern lies with the "I know you can't help it". 

It's not her fault - she has also been conditioned by society her entire life to think that we are the subject of shame or there is something wrong with us.   I don't know where you see things going but I am going to be bold and suggest that you try educating her 'gently' with both articles and meeting with a transgender specific therapist.

Sorry for your struggle.

Kim, Wife & I both know exactly what is going on. We have talked, we have watched transgender documentaries together, we have been to a specialised transgender counsellor and non- trans specific counsellor.
My wife has known Im a bit different for 22 years. She started with the usual questions when we first got together. ie are you gay ? What is it with you?.ect.

The thing is with girlfriends I could never do the benevolent dictator. I found women expected active management and would try on the drama when I didnt control them
I never had it in my heart to dominate my female lovers I thought of them as my mates or friends and we could talk through   stuff.

In the end this meant sexual spark faded out and they were often left disappointed- I  couldnt be the man they wanted me to be. I could supply physical intimacy but the chemistry was often off the mark

So that is where I am now. I simply am not the man she wants or needs. She is not hard wired to be turned on by a SO that is as feminine as she is.

I sort of knew this many years ago.

Kirsten.

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Hugs Kirsten, kindness kills the drama, actions over words, deeds over threats, love where it's unexpected. I don't really know you, but I've read enough to begin to get a feel for the situation you face. Let's suppose instead of announcing "you are going to dress as yourself" (i won't use the word crossdress), you simply "do it", no words, no drama, just you as yourself, you should not need anyone's permission. It's like the vibe in the song "Thank you for lettin' be myself, again"

It's so hard, and nothing is easy...

Cynthia -

Kirsten I have been thinking about my response for a while now because you and I seem to be paralleling a lot in this experience.   I feel your sadness and frustration.

I strongly believe that we have a right to be happy.

I don't know the complexity of your life beyond what you have shared.  We each bring our own nasty twists to the experience it seems.

I know I want to stop and I can't.  I want to go back to the way I was two years ago and I can't.  I don't know where I will be in a year.  At some point you and I will reach that point of no return.  Everyone has said that and everything I have read says that.  There doesn't seem to be a way to freeze this process.

I have rejected suicide.  That to me is a stupid waste of life.  I don't think I can stay male but I am trying.  I know where my heart is but I have time to continue to doubt.

Unfortunately when that time comes, our spouses will need to make their own decision.  It's miserable but we didn't choose this.  My son's girlfriend broke up with him when his cancer came back and broke his heart.  She decided she couldn't ihandle losing him.

I don't know what my wife will choose once confronted with my choice.  I will at least know that I will have exhausted every option and tried ever alternative solution and looked for a better answer. 

That is all I can do.

After that, she will have to decide.


Hugs,

Emma

Never, besides no point in having a point of no return if we are not truly who we claim to be. x

Josie I agree in general but I have been living for decades and I thought I knew who I was all this time. 

Its taken me this long to figure I don't know who I am.  I am in the process of figuring that out. 

I don't want to get it wrong because I won't just be hurting me, I will be hurting my wife.

She deserves my certainty.

Quote from: CynthiaAnn on April 08, 2019, 06:17:51 AM
Hugs Kirsten, kindness kills the drama, actions over words, deeds over threats, love where it's unexpected. I don't really know you, but I've read enough to begin to get a feel for the situation you face. Let's suppose instead of announcing "you are going to dress as yourself" (i won't use the word crossdress), you simply "do it", no words, no drama, just you as yourself, you should not need anyone's permission. It's like the vibe in the song "Thank you for lettin' be myself, again"

It's so hard, and nothing is easy...

Cynthia -

Thank you so much Cynthia- reading and considering these kind words - must get back to work.


  Kirsten.

Quote from: Emma1017 on April 08, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Kirsten I have been thinking about my response for a while now because you and I seem to be paralleling a lot in this experience.   I feel your sadness and frustration.

I strongly believe that we have a right to be happy.

I don't know the complexity of your life beyond what you have shared.  We each bring our own nasty twists to the experience it seems.

I know I want to stop and I can't.  I want to go back to the way I was two years ago and I can't.  I don't know where I will be in a year.  At some point you and I will reach that point of no return.  Everyone has said that and everything I have read says that.  There doesn't seem to be a way to freeze this process.

I have rejected suicide.  That to me is a stupid waste of life.  I don't think I can stay male but I am trying.  I know where my heart is but I have time to continue to doubt.

Unfortunately when that time comes, our spouses will need to make their own decision.  It's miserable but we didn't choose this.  My son's girlfriend broke up with him when his cancer came back and broke his heart.  She decided she couldn't ihandle losing him.

I don't know what my wife will choose once confronted with my choice.  I will at least know that I will have exhausted every option and tried ever alternative solution and looked for a better answer. 

That is all I can do.

After that, she will have to decide.


Hugs,

Emma

Hi again Emma,
                        I have said when I look at you I see me reflected back, also I am you and what I see is me. Yes I do understand the sadness and frustration. Your support is highly valued.

This could all be solved if I could have a breakthrough and have my wife on board. I have tried hard. I also understand it is unreasonable to expect her to go against her innate nature to suit my gender issues. That said I cooked dinner last night dressed( dare I say it ) EN FEMME in a casual t-shirt dress and comfortable flared skirt. No one batted an eye.

I to dont believe in suicide- my young sons are strong justification not to. I have already opened the path of discussion with key people and that has brought me back from the brink before. I dont want any permanent solutions to a temporary problem.

Ironically when I first saw a psychologist I wanted to be told I was not trans and the intense desire to be female was a by product of something else - after much interviewing, profiling, testing, yes it is a condition that has been there all my life just so much more intense in middle age.

I think the way forward is to push the female envelope without any surgeries, then reassess. That way I can return if necessary. I cant even conceive the future in a years time. Full time and surgery seems very attractive but I have no irrefutable proof it is the best path.

  The best we can do is just be ourselves without suppression and without projecting a false persona.

   Take care of yourself, Kirsten.

Wow, pains me to read this and at that same time reminds me I am not alone. 

I feel completely in the same boat as you,Kirsten and Emma. I'm continuing to move forward, but not sure that I can handle going all the way forward either, only thing I'm sure of is not wanting to go back. I constantly get melancholy that I will probably never change enough to accept my self-image, and yet relieved that I can maybe continue to push on in the male life that will satisfy my close family,  with just this hormonal balance shift if I have to. I realized that I never like my self image post puberty anyways, hard to imagine it being worse. 

I'm often wracked with guilt that I pass my pain onto my own family and risk what by all measures has been a good and fulfilling life, that I just am somehow left unhappy in. It's scary, my wife has been my best friend for nearly 20 years. I'd venture to say my only friend, everyone else is an acquaintance.  If she leaves me, loneliness is guaranteed. Fortunate enough to know that life goes on one way or another, and having witnessed a parental suicide's impact on a close friend growing up, I have the realities of who suffers firmly rooted in me. Guess I'll just have to own a lot of cats some day.

Kate and Kirsten I compare this process to trying to stop a very slow moving freight train by standing in front of it. 

Its easier to get on and ride to see where it goes.

When I went to the therapist for the first time last year, I really thought it was one visit and that's it.  I had no clue what was happening and how deep it was affecting me. 

This last year has been surreal!

I just started electrolysis and voice therapy.  I keep telling myself that these physical changes are all reversible but the one change that is irreversible is how I feel mentally.

I have no choice but to keep going until I can finally be at peace with myself, or as close as I can get.

I found my own Point of No Return a couple weeks back. I work as a host (hostess, really, but I was trying to still present masculine at the time) in a restaurant, and as such I have high visibility. the last couple months I've been wearing a light denim hoodie/jacket thing over the top, and a tank underneath the shirt to hide the girls as they grew in. One day, I was in a rush and forgot both my tank and jacket. got to work, figured I'd be fine...then I looked down. Nope, it was all jiggle jiggle jiggle bounce bounce.

I explained this to my boss (who knows my situation and is fully supportive) and she allowed me to wear my larger leather jacket that I'd worn to work during my shift.

That time, as well as a family member remarking on how narrow my waist is now, was the point at which I officially realized my 'male presentation' time was coming to an end. It was a good thing, as it made me kick my transition process into a much higher gear.