Susan's Place Transgender Resources

About 99% of the time I agree with the more 'stealthy' responders in what they say. One transitions, when MTF, to being a woman. Not a trans-woman, not a TS, not a gender-queer. Otherwise, seems to me, that the entire movement is absolutely pointless.

That 1% of the time disagreement is mostly made-up of angry, in-your-face attitudes toward those who are different.

No, transitioning was not 'fun;' it was scary for awhile. A really big deal for me. Some of the after-effects were not fun either, but, except for government things, those are past. And so do not affect my daily life.

I have no wish to be 'seen as transsexual.' Is that a form of 'internalized transphobia?' Don't know, don't care. If someone is bothered by me stating that I am female, have always been and now I am 'read' as female does that affect me? Not on your life. It obviously DOES affect them and it's up to them to find what is bothering them and why. Not my problem.

But, world being what it is, neither do I feel like I have 'to call' anyone else on their fun or comfort level or on how they see themselves. The world is absolutely full of ->-bleeped-<-s, freaks, conservatives, anarchists, lovers, haters, assimilationists, exhibitionists and 'tweeners. If someone wants to transition to wearing female clothing with a full beard and in all other ways being a man, I suppose that's fine as well. Please, just don't use the bathroom I am in -- I'll call security! And, it would probably be best for them not to show up at many lesbian groups 'for women only.'

I suppose I just don't quite 'get' why someone else's comfort level becomes such a big deal. Okay, TSX wants to grow a beard while having breasts and having had FFS. I find that weird and not for me, but it also doesn't screw up my day or make me change anything about what and how I do my life. *shrug* So, except for wondering 'what the f***!' Why would I need to give TSX any of my time? Obviously she and I haven't much in common except a rather hard-to-live-with birth condition.

If TSY wants to claim she is intersexed' why don't I just let her? Does it really matter to me? And even if it did how would I know she is not or is anyhow? Do I really need to 'challenge' her? I don't.

If someone wants to find the 'rock'ing parts of being TS in their own lives, then, well enough, find 'em. Personally, I never thought about TS as a 'rocking' thing.

If someone wants to do a "what rocks about being a woman?" thread then I'll take part in that.

If someone has problems with my stating rather plainly "I'm a woman, not trans." that's their problem and one they need to work out. I'll just shrug my shoulders and move on. They have a right to their opinions. Afterall, opinions, like hairs, are individual, and universal among mammalians.

OTH, there are a lot of opinions and strategies that I can apply to myself that ARE discussed here. They DO make a difference and sometimes get lost in the welter of animosity and 'defense of my way' stuff that goes on. That adds really nothing much that I see except combativeness, bans and hard-feelings, mostly toward people we neither know and will never meet.

Look, I dunno about the rest of you but 'blood anomalies, depression and my child being seemingly unable to recall to return home with his coat, lunch-box, homework, etc from school and how I will continue to buy gas for my car on a student's budget are problems enough for any day I live in.

I just don't see what's accomplished with the in-fighting and sneers at others.

Nichole

I started to put something down, but stopped. Nichole, good post. I'm not going to say anymore.
Sheila

The idea of a forum, as the Greeks and Romans understood it, was a open exchange of ideas, and not a reaching of a consensus.  Some things you might disagree with, but its still 'good to know' stuff.

Nice post Nichole.

Exactly, tekla. Disagreement is a part of most opinions. And I tend to be rather certain that if something looks like 100% there will be someone who disagrees.

The Athenian agora and the Roman forum were places where disagreement was cherished. At least to some degree.

Disagreement is never the problem. Personal attacks on this forum are. For instance: it's completely possible and meet that I disagree with you on some or another matter. I can post that. To suggest that your mind is currently fogged by an illicit substance, or that you are some sort of lesser being, because you have your opinions is not only a problem, but also a violation of the guidelines set for this forum.

And, at some point, I have sense enough to see that you will believe what you believe anyway. I don't think we should rein-in argument. Rather, I should keep in perspective how much a threat it may be to me anyhow. 

For me to get 'upset' with you because you hold what I perceive as 'totally off-the-wall views' and that I should belabor you, personally, for days on end to that effect seems totally pointless to me. It possibly tends to further your "misguided beliefs" as well, simply for the attention it gives them and the inclination of some to 'sympathize' with wrong-headedness.
  :)

N~
 

Posted on: January 12, 2008, 02:03:10 PM

---

Actually, Sarah. I rather liked your original post. I thought it rather helped make my original point -- that much disagreement and animosity comes because I take BB-chat way too personally. I can take a general statement about X and make it about 'Nichole' if I am not careful.

IMO, that's where spending some time discovering what causes my reaction to something becomes valuable for me. I can figure out, sometimes, if you are 'stepping on my toes' intentionally, or just saying what you think and it has nothing more to do with me than that I disagree.

Ya see?

I think the most difficult thing I learned in the time I have been on BBs is that just because someone disagrees with me directly, or just because they are different in some other aspect of what they do and how they do it, that doesn't mean that they are directing those disagreements or differences at me, personally, and somehow trying to 'hurt' me or make naught what I think.

In fact, for them to do that would require my active assistance and complicity.

Nichole



I wish you'd left it as was.

I live in a world where fogged minds are run of the mill, and often to advantage oddly enough.  Always seemed strange to me that so many people who disagree with all of that (and the rest of it too) open their wallets to support it in such a manner.  Though even stranger is they then turn around and that use that world, the drugs, the the casual sex, the excess on all levels, the objectification of women as little more than a commodity (in both the lyrics as well as the real life) as the touchstone of cool and goodness.  So posts like 'what rocks' and 'who rocks' always seem strange to me, as I tend to see only rock bands as something that 'rocks', and even then, there is Journey.

But "you rock," "they rock" - its not real, its just a saying, right?  One used pretty routinely in the world at large without reference to its real roots.

Statements referencing mental states are also routine in the world at large.  I'm streaming our local big sports event, the Mavericks surf contest where statements like "insane" and "crazy" are being used in almost every other sentence.  I suppose that given they are surfing 30 foot waves, perhaps it is crazy.  Given the frigid water, jagged rocks, and great white sharks that are part of the environment there, maybe its more than crazy.  But I'm sure that is not what the reference is to.  Its just a saying.

Some find words like "freak," "->-bleeped-<-," "queer," and "pervert" offensive, others celebrate them.  Should those that use them in a positive manner be forced to conform for the sake of those that don't?  I would think that everyone has the right to define themselves however they want, while at the same time, I don't think anyone is under any obligation to accept that.  That's freedom, and its very messy.  As the protesters sometimes chant "this is what democracy smells like."

I hope you don't expect an argument on your last post, tekla.

I think Athens and its democracy were probably just great, well, unless you were one of the slaves, 'allied states,' or women, that it was built on. I'm sure the debates in the forum between Cicero and Cataline were also very enjoyable for any of the Equites that heard them. Again, though, I imagine that the slaves and women who didn't were busy with other things, things that prevented them from partaking in high-blown discussions.

Democracy almost always 'smells' like someone else being ground into the dust to give the democrats a podium to stand on. Churchill may have been absolutely correct in saying that it was better than whatever was in second, or whatever he said. Of course, what was his podium built on?

N~

Quotethis is what democracy smells like

Democracy never fairs well for the minority.

to Nichole:
I apprecieate that, but I think it was wrong speach anyway.

I have found that over-clarificaiton on my part seems to be an attempt to bend others understanding to my will.

An attempt to make them get it.

It doesnt work, usualy, and even when it does, it just makes me seem neurotic

Not everyone is going to understand what I mean

Like that other Thread: about half the responders got it and responded accordingly, and a few others felt defensive and hostile.

I figure that's about right.

And I really shouldn't worry about whether or not everyone understands what I said or not.

I think what I had OP'd here was a more accurate explaination of what I was trying to get accross there, but to be honest, I was tired of explaining myself.

Not worth the headache.

'precieate your carring though. ^_^
I'd put it back for you if I had a copy
Sara

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

of course he also said:

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

The reason for any of it, and all of it, is that in these conversations are people who have represented, people who will represent, and people who are representing.  And for those who intend to be of some service its critical to realize the breath and depth of the range of people they are trying to represent.  To know that you are not going to make everyone happy, so what is the path of the greatest good for the greatest number?

There is an old AA/NA saying that 'if you hang out in these rooms long enough you will hear your story."  And that's true here too.  Sooner or later, you will find someone who's life mirrors your own.  That may well be so powerful for those that have been alone in all of this, that in and of itself, its more than enough reason.

And, in its own way, many have read posts here and thought "gee, that sure ain't me babe."  That can be good too. That in fact was my particular revelation in AA/NA was that since none of these stories were mine, perhaps my problem was located elsewhere - and it turned out that it was.  I'm sure there are many who thought perhaps what they had was GID, when, upon reading a lot of this, found out that perhaps, that was not exactly it.

Hello Nichole.

Personally I feel that I've escaped from the "trans" world that governed my very existence for many years, my transition is done, the journey is over, I can live the rest of my life as it should have been right from the start.  Yes I know that's very selfish...

But realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

Many forget that we suffered as they did/do, and to be honest I really don't want to stand up and fight out in the public eye.  Yes as I said very selfish, but I do other work "Behind" the scenes.

The other issue that I have is the incessant need for many mtf to redefine what a woman is, just to meet their own criteria.  Frankly a woman is a woman and always will be, to try and invent different levels of womanhood etc. just won't wash, and never will.

Steph

I agree and substitute 'what a man is' where its used, and its works the other way too.

I have no idea what either one of you are talking about, but..OK! :D
LOL
Sara

Greetings,

QuoteBut realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

This basically sums up how I feel on this topic. Once you transition you move on, you become involved in your own life and move past transition. Transition is only a temporary stopping ground, a vital one admittedly, but still only supposed to be temporary. It's not that once people transition and start moving on don't have time to help the community...it's just that their priorities are now different. Some have waited a long time to become their true self and would like to enjoy it!

For me I am a woman, have always identified as a woman and transition is just one stop on my way to becoming the woman I was meant to be at birth.

Just my thoughts on the topic...

   
Paix et amour,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I took it as a comment on the occasional tendency by members in our community to play to the worst most demeaning stereotypes possible.  The MtF girls who think that all girls are all fru-fru damsels in distress, or FtM guys who think that men somehow judge each other by how much they can bench press and how rude they can be in everyday life.

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on January 12, 2008, 07:46:14 PM
Greetings,

QuoteBut realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

This basically sums up how I feel on this topic. Once you transition you move on, you become involved in your own life and move past transition. Transition is only a temporary stopping ground, a vital one admittedly, but still only supposed to be temporary. It's not that once people transition and start moving on don't have time to help the community...it's just that their priorities are now different. Some have waited a long time to become their true self and would like to enjoy it!

For me I am a woman, have always identified as a woman and transition is just one stop on my way to becoming the woman I was meant to be at birth.

Just my thoughts on the topic...

   
Paix et amour,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I feel this way too.
But a woman is also more than a body to me.

My problem with stealth: The lying.

I don't like being dishonest to my friends, co-workers, significant others, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc.

Lying about any of it. There is nothing wrong with where I came from.

I don't want to have to develop elaborate pretenses just to interact with people.

Or be afraid of what what might happen if they "find out". To avoid the truth is passive deception. So is to deliberately mislead. I'd rather have people accept me as who I am, not what they think I should be.

Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

Why would I? Dona Rose, Jamison Green, Other activists, People who are just 'out', People like me. Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears? And then complains that we don't represent them?

Nobody represents them. They are ghosts. They don't exist. And they don't get a voice if they aren't going to at least be grateful for the work the rest of us do.
I'll stand up for my interests.

I'll use the restroom I damn well please. Why do I care about how some Ghost feels?

Stealth is one thing. Disapearing is quite another.

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:05:31 PM
Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

You say this like all those who eventually choose stealth have never given anything back to the community.  I'm just starting and I'm giving as I can while I learn, but I can foresee a time when I might go stealth.  Will I then be less worthy because I don't continue to give and give?

Val

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:05:31 PM
Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears?

Because they deserve to live and enjoy the life you've helped them to realize? Because THAT might give you the greatest satisfaction of all?

~Kate~

I was just thinking about this.

You know, we're all in this together.

Someone who runs away is effecting more than just themself.

They are hurting all of us.

And when they do that, they have basically taken support from the community, and then given back hurt.

It feels like stealing. or betrayal, or somthing.

Some people say: "well, they just don't know how it feels", baloney.
I know exactly how it feels. and I know that it is seductive to go stealth, and then leave.

"I'm not trans. anymore, I'm just a woman now"

I don't know how to describe the kinda feeling I feel for this kinda delusion.

Some strange blend of  Betrayal, sorrow, anger, hate, frustration, helplessness...all rolled into one.

And their excuse is: "well I've suffered enough" !@%#$@!%!!!.

Suffering exists. it is unavoidable and intrinsic to existance.

What someone like that is doing, is offloading responsibility that they DO have onto others. It doesn't matter whether you asked for that responsibility. You got it. You were born with it. it's the way it is. and to make the rest of us have to work harder because they want to give in to fear -and that is exactly what it is: fear- they make the rest of us have to bear their burdon for them.

Empathy? they want to talk about feeling?

Where's their empathy for the next generation of kids? the ones being born right now?

The ones who's acceptance is going to depend in large part on the nomalization of all of us in society.

Are the stealth people helping those kids?
Are the ghosts?
Theyre gone. They are "just a woman" and so don't feel the need to be 'out' anymore.

Donna Rose is just a woman.

One woman who is making a huge difference.

So is everyone who is out.

Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.

It is a very interesting problem - often seeking (demanding) rights that once obtained, they turn around and deny to others.    I often wonder at what point people begin telling stories that start out "when I was a little girl (boy)..." expecting others to live that lie with them.  And don't others, who you want to accept you as you are, deserve the truth at some point?  And, if and when (more often than not when, records are all too easy to find in this day and age) are they right to be mad at you for not trusting them with the truth?

That, and the paranoia of a constant worry about being outed must be overwhelming.  The best thing about being out is you never have to worry about anyone finding out, they already know.

For the record, I think that Jameson Green is one of the best people I've ever met or worked with.  A true gem in a world full of costume paste reproductions. 

Quote from: DeValInDisguise on January 12, 2008, 08:20:05 PM

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:05:31 PM
Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

You say this like all those who eventually choose stealth have never given anything back to the community.  I'm just starting and I'm giving as I can while I learn, but I can foresee a time when I might go stealth.  Will I then be less worthy because I don't continue to give and give?

Val

Ask the trans. kids that.

I think that any sort of stealth is going to be more problematic in the future.  The changes in just 10 years in the amount, quality and indexing of information on the web has been mind-blowing.  Given another 10 years, I'm not sure that there is going to be much you are not going to be able to find.

People need to understand that we are all different. My views are different in that I am a woman and as far as my past goes, it's open. I will not be put back into the closet and try to hide something. There are people who have transititioned and want to live their lives as they should and not let anyone know about their past. I really can't see that happening, but it is their life and they should do what they want. I will not judge them. I don't want to be judged on how I look either. Some say you have to have this and that done so you will pass 100% of the time. I'm sure I don't as I do get looks, but I don't care, no one has said anything and what I don't hear is none of my business. I will not judge you.
As far as giving back to the community, I think we all find our way our own way. The community does not agree with it's self. I have given back more than I ever took. I only want to have is non-discrimination among people.
Sheila

Quote from: Steph on January 12, 2008, 04:55:28 PM
Personally I feel that I've escaped from the "trans" world that governed my very existence for many years, my transition is done, the journey is over, I can live the rest of my life as it should have been right from the start.  Yes I know that's very selfish...

But realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

Many forget that we suffered as they did/do, and to be honest I really don't want to stand up and fight out in the public eye.  Yes as I said very selfish, but I do other work "Behind" the scenes.

The other issue that I have is the incessant need for many mtf to redefine what a woman is, just to meet their own criteria.  Frankly a woman is a woman and always will be, to try and invent different levels of womanhood etc. just won't wash, and never will.

Steph

Seconded.  If stealth becomes impossible in this country after this stupid Real ID Act passes, I can always go to the country where I was raised.  I am pretty sure I won't have to deal with this kind of invasion of privacy there... :P
...and this is why, saving (as much as you can) is a good thing, especially when "the most advanced nation in the world"  ::) fails to provide its citizens with privacy...you can always escape somewhere else and live in peace without the red tape that this country is accustomed to.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:29:36 PM
The ones who's acceptance is going to depend in large part on the nomalization of all of us in society.

"We" get normalized by living a normal life as normal women. Yes, intentionally hiding and lying about our past doesn't much help the ones who follow us. By I don't think flaunting our history as if we're "special" and different does either.

I don't hide or lie about my past. Countless people now know that I was born male. Not because I "educated" anyone, but just because it came up naturally... maybe they knew me from before, or watched me transition, or were told by someone else, or I had to tell them as professional contacts... whatever. But I never get into this whole "I"m a transsexual" thing, I just stick with the point... which normally is just, "I"m Kate now." And that's it.

And they tell two friends, and they tell two friends... and so on. I've heard some of the stories being told cycle back to me, and you know what I hear most often? "Bill heard I was working with a transsexual and asked me what THAT was like. And I had to laugh, and told him it's not like anything... it's just been boring. She's just Kate now. I was fearing all this weirdness about it, but she's just an ordinary woman now. There's really nothing to tell."

THAT'S how we prepare the way for those to follow us, IMHO. By example, not lecture. By living, not demanding.

~Kate~

That's being out Kate.

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:29:36 PM

Someone who runs away is effecting more than just themself.

They are hurting all of us.

And when they do that, they have basically taken support from the community, and then given back hurt.

It feels like stealing. or betrayal, or somthing.

Some people say: "well, they just don't know how it feels", baloney.
I know exactly how it feels. and I know that it is seductive to go stealth, and then leave.

"I'm not trans. anymore, I'm just a woman now"

I don't know how to describe the kinda feeling I feel for this kinda delusion.

Some strange blend of  Betrayal, sorrow, anger, hate, frustration, helplessness...all rolled into one.

And their excuse is: "well I've suffered enough" !@%#$@!%!!!.

Suffering exists. it is unavoidable and intrinsic to existance.

What someone like that is doing, is offloading responsibility that they DO have onto others. It doesn't matter whether you asked for that responsibility. You got it. You were born with it. it's the way it is. and to make the rest of us have to work harder because they want to give in to fear -and that is exactly what it is: fear- they make the rest of us have to bear their burdon for them.

If this is their choice,then we should all respect that, just like it should be respected when someone whats to divulge their past. Some people do pass well enough to remain undetected in society, some people dont but what they choose to do with their lives is theirs alone to decide. This is still a society where people have the freedom to decide the directions of their lives.

Perhaps the answer is to round up all the Transsexuals in the world and make them live on an island somewhere just like they did with Lepers or tattoe everyone with a mark just like they did with Jews. Then no one could escape their past, no one could move their life forward in the direction they wanted. That way everyone would have to carry the mark of their past forever.

Perhaps I should change my hard won birth certificate and remove the word "girl" and change this to "Transsexual" and also have this printed in my passport, driving licence and other key documents.

I personally did not go through transition to be reminded constantly of my past by what society and the medical sector have labelled me. Just like I respect people choice to be "out and proud", I hope people would respect mine to live how I want to live, simply a contributing member of society and not someone who has betrayed, ghosted or been disrespectful to the trans community, but simply achieved their own aims in life.

Rebecca (The person formely known as Unhappy, Depressed, Unsucessful, Unconfident & Transsexual)

I really hope that this is not a continuation of that other thread... ::), so let's stay on topic please...

The title of this thread is

QuoteWhat's Accomplished?

tink :icon_chick:

Hello Sarah,

I'm going to address your response in chucks, but before I do I would like to point out that I serve on the board of directors for a statewide LGBT organzation here in Missouri, have helped the Kansas City Anti-Violence Project's Transgender Day of Remembrance in Kansas City, produced a widely successful video for Transgender Day of Remembrance, have two books in the works, am on a project to help educate people in my state on transgender issues, working on bringing Mara in for town halls about ENDA and a number of other things to. I am as out as you can be, but still identify as female. Transition will always in my view just be a layover on my way to other things. But that is my view.

QuoteI feel this way too.
But a woman is also more than a body to me.

Very true, there is a lot more to being a woman then a body and yes, a lot of people starting transition often think that by going into the hospital for some surgery is going to make them the woman they have always wanted to be. It's only one piece of the puzzle, and most eventually learn this in time.

QuoteMy problem with stealth: The lying.

I don't like being dishonest to my friends, co-workers, significant others, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc.

Lying about any of it. There is nothing wrong with where I came from.

I don't want to have to develop elaborate pretenses just to interact with people.

While being stealth may be viewed as lying, it is really about simple survival for most people. There is still a lot of discrimination, hate crimes, violence, abuse and other negative things directed at transgender people in general; for most it's just trying to survive. In all honesty, stealth is not easy to do any more since there is so much data collected on everyone anymore, this is especially true for late transitioners than younger one's. Your previous name will be forever linked in your credit history, and other databases. So in my opinion true stealth is not really possible in this day and age.

That does not mean that every person I meet in my daily activities even needs to know about my past. There are different levels of stealth and to some degree after everyone transitions and starts to move on their is really no need for them to broadcast their past. You do not need to lie to friends, family, relations, etc. I look at as being selective in what I will tell someone. Someone I am in a serious relationship with would definitely get the whole story, you can't form a loving, long lasting relationship without telling them...again in my opinion.

QuoteOr be afraid of what what might happen if they "find out". To avoid the truth is passive deception. So is to deliberately mislead. I'd rather have people accept me as who I am, not what they think I should be.

That is fine for you, but to judge other's who may feel differently isn't right either. What is right for one person may be terribly wrong for someone else. I do not know where you are in your transition or if you've had all the bad experiences that go with telling that new friend or possible love interest about yourself only to have them abandon you. After a while you get much more selective in who you tell and how much you tell...

QuoteStealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

Yes, stealth people go underground and yes they take from the community; but people who choose to not go stealth also take from the community. To expect every single person to give something back to the community is not a very good stance, in my opinion. There will be those who stand up and help, others who take what they need and move one; but we should not judge others too harshly. Everyone is different and have different driving forces, not everyone has the character to be an activist. To get angry at them only takes away your energies that could be used more productively for other things.

Quote
Why would I? Dona Rose, Jamison Green, Other activists, People who are just 'out', People like me. Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears? And then complains that we don't represent them?

Nobody represents them. They are ghosts. They don't exist. And they don't get a voice if they aren't going to at least be grateful for the work the rest of us do.

Actually there will always be people who complain, it's just human nature. It is very difficult to represent everyone within a community to start with; different segments of that very same community can and often do have very different needs. Not everyone is born a Dona Rose, Mara, or anything close; it takes a certain mix of personal characteristics and experiences that drives these people to do what they feel they must do. But when you are representing a community, you need to represent everyone within that community, even those who have tried to disappear; for that is what is truly right. To say I'm not going to help you because of this, that, and the other things is also being selfish...something to think about.

QuoteI'll stand up for my interests.

I'll use the restroom I damn well please. Why do I care about how some Ghost feels?

As you should, in my opinion at least. But at the same time if everyone did as they damn well pleased the whole concept of society would collapse and all we would have is chaos. There is nothing wrong for standing up for your interests, but at the same time you need to work within the existing framework to bring about the changes you want. There are billions of people out there and just as many opinions and views on every topic/issue. It is far harder to work within the system to bring about change and it can be a thankless task, but it can be done with hard work, perseverance and time.

QuoteStealth is one thing. Disappearing is quite another.

LOL, the very definition of stealth is to disappear, to go unnoticed. If some chooses to disappear from the community, so what? To get upset over it is a waste of time and energy...in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with being an activist, standing up for what you see as an injustice, but to expect everyone to feel the same isn't realistic. But at the same time I can understand your frustration...

Last year I was attending a statewide equality summit here in Missouri and during the question/answer period I asked if the organization, which is a LGBT organization, had any transgender people on your board. The answer was a "No". To which I asked, then how can you claim to represent transgender people and guarantee that the trans communities views and needs are considered in the day-to-day decision making process of the organization. Basically it came down to that they have been looking for someone to serve on their board of directors, but had been unsuccessful in finding a member of the trans community to step forward to take the post. I have actually run into that with more then one non-profit.

I now hold that board position myself and I to am amazed that more trans people do not come forward to help, but at the same time I don't fault them. It takes someone a bit crazy to walk around with a constant bullseye on their back...for by representing the community you also become a focal point for possible problems. So I don't fault them...but that is just me.

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I love, and even more, take comfort in that take on life and that way of living Kate.

And Tink, you think it ain't gonna follow you?  Its not called the World Wide Web for nothing.  Same information I can get on my iBook here in California, I can get just about anywhere else.  Every nation - civil or uncivil - is going in this direction, and many were there long ago.

Privacy as you define it is a 19th century notion, its now the 21st century, for better or worse.

Quote from: tekla on January 12, 2008, 09:12:00 PM

And Tink, you think it ain't gonna follow you?  Its not called the World Wide Web for nothing.  Same information I can get on my iBook here in California, I can get just about anywhere else.  Every nation - civil or uncivil - is going in this direction, and many were there long ago.

Oh I don't care if they know, that's not what I am concerned about.  I just don't want them to divulge my history.  My fav quote of all times:

Quote from: DawnI am a woman with a transsexual history, not a transsexual and my history is my business alone.

So there... the fairy princess has spoken...

tink :icon_chick:

"what is accomplished?"
Not much. But people do need to know what others limits are if they are to respect them.
Otherwise they don't know.

That's what most debates seem like to me: people drawing lines in the sand as to where or where not they are comfortable with. As though to say "I'm cool with you, but don't go there"
That seems to me what most of it is.

People get heated especially if somthing matters to them more than just a little bit.
As if to say "these other things bug me, but this one is a no fly zone. If you go there,  prepare to be shot at"

People do set limits, and I think it's important to know where they are, and where people stand. I can't not cross a line if I don't know where the line is.

In our community because we all have a very strong binding in one area, I think the tendancy is to asume we all agree as one. Well we don't. That seems clear to me.
But I do like knowing where people are and are not comfortable going so that I can respect that. and I like to hear when someone says somthing is important to them.
Their tone speaks a lot about what kind of priority it is. And I like to know that.
Personally, I don't mind my views being challenged. And well they should be. If someone can intoduce a new perspective or a way of thinking I have not considered...Good for them! There lies a true friend.

But for other people,..I don't know.
I don't speak for them.
Sara

Posted on: January 12, 2008, 08:25:02 PM

---

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on January 12, 2008, 09:11:35 PM
Hello Sarah,

I'm going to address your response in chucks, but before I do I would like to point out that I serve on the board of directors for a statewide LGBT organzation here in Missouri, have helped the Kansas City Anti-Violence Project's Transgender Day of Remembrance in Kansas City, produced a widely successful video for Transgender Day of Remembrance, have two books in the works, am on a project to help educate people in my state on transgender issues, working on bringing Mara in for town halls about ENDA and a number of other things to. I am as out as you can be, but still identify as female. Transition will always in my view just be a layover on my way to other things. But that is my view.

QuoteI feel this way too.
But a woman is also more than a body to me.

Very true, there is a lot more to being a woman then a body and yes, a lot of people starting transition often think that by going into the hospital for some surgery is going to make them the woman they have always wanted to be. It's only one piece of the puzzle, and most eventually learn this in time.

QuoteMy problem with stealth: The lying.

I don't like being dishonest to my friends, co-workers, significant others, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc.

Lying about any of it. There is nothing wrong with where I came from.

I don't want to have to develop elaborate pretenses just to interact with people.

While being stealth may be viewed as lying, it is really about simple survival for most people. There is still a lot of discrimination, hate crimes, violence, abuse and other negative things directed at transgender people in general; for most it's just trying to survive. In all honesty, stealth is not easy to do any more since there is so much data collected on everyone anymore, this is especially true for late transitioners than younger one's. Your previous name will be forever linked in your credit history, and other databases. So in my opinion true stealth is not really possible in this day and age.

That does not mean that every person I meet in my daily activities every needs to even know about my past. There are different levels of stealth and to some degree after everyone transitions and starts to move on their is really no need for them to broadcast their past. You do not need to lie to friends, family, relations, etc. I look at as being selective in what I will tell someone. Someone I am in a serious relationship with would definitely get the whole story, you can't form a loving, long lasting relationship without telling them...again in my opinion.

QuoteOr be afraid of what what might happen if they "find out". To avoid the truth is passive deception. So is to deliberately mislead. I'd rather have people accept me as who I am, not what they think I should be.

That is fine for you, but to judge other's who may feel differently isn't right either. What is right for one person may be terribly wrong for someone else. I do not know where you are in your transition or if you've had all the bad experiences that go with telling that new friend or possible love interest about yourself only to have them abandon you. After a while you get much more selective in who you tell and how much you tell...

QuoteStealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

Yes, stealth people go underground and yes they take from the community; but people who choose to not go stealth also take from the community. To expect every single person to give something back to the community is not a very good stance, in my opinion. There will be those who stand up and help, others who take what they need and move one; but we should not judge others too harshly. Everyone is different and have different driving forces, not everyone has the character to be an activist. To get angry at them only takes away your energies that could be used more productively for other things.

Quote
Why would I? Dona Rose, Jamison Green, Other activists, People who are just 'out', People like me. Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears? And then complains that we don't represent them?

Nobody represents them. They are ghosts. They don't exist. And they don't get a voice if they aren't going to at least be grateful for the work the rest of us do.

Actually there will always be people who complain, it's just human nature. It is very difficult to represent everyone within a community to start with; different segments of that very same community can and often do have very different needs. Not everyone is born a Dona Rose, Mara, or anything close; it takes a certain mix of personal characteristics and experiences that drives these people to do what they feel they must do. But when you are representing a community, you need to represent everyone within that community, even those who have tried to disappear; for that is what is truly right. To say I'm not going to help you because of this, that, and the other things is also being selfish...something to think about.

QuoteI'll stand up for my interests.

I'll use the restroom I damn well please. Why do I care about how some Ghost feels?

As you should, in my opinion at least. But at the same time if everyone did as they damn well pleased the whole concept of society would collapse and all we would have is chaos. There is nothing wrong for standing up for your interests, but at the same time you need to work within the existing framework to bring about the changes you want. There are billions of people out there and just as many opinions and views on every topic/issue. It is far harder to work within the system to bring about change and it can be a thankless task, but it can be done with hard work, perseverance and time.

QuoteStealth is one thing. Disappearing is quite another.

LOL, the very definition of stealth is to disappear, to go unnoticed. If some chooses to disappear from the community, so what? To get upset over it is a waste of time and energy...in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with being an activist, standing up for what you see as an injustice, but to expect everyone to feel the same isn't realistic. But at the same time I can understand your frustration...

Last year I was attending a statewide equality summit here in Missouri and during the question/answer period I asked if the organization, which is a LGBT organization, had any transgender people on your board. The answer was a "No". To which I asked, then how can you claim to represent transgender people and guarantee that the trans communities views and needs are considered in the day-to-day decision making process of the organization. Basically it came down to that they have been looking for someone to serve on their board of directors, but had been unsuccessful in finding a member of the trans community to step forward to take the post. I have actually run into that with more then one non-profit.

I know hold that board position myself and I to am amazed that more trans people do not come forward to help, but at the same time I don't fault them. It takes someone a bit crazy to walk around with a constant bullseye on their back...for by representing the community you also become a focal point for possible problems. So I don't fault them...but that is just me.

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

That was a very well thought out reply and I apreceate your response to that.
It gave me somthing to think about and moved me certainly.

To BCL. Same to you.
I apreceate responses that are taken seriously and take seriously the problems of others.  You are a true friend, and an honest one at that.

So are you Izzie.

Thanks.
Sara Murray

I'm not on the same journey as yourselves, but had I been on that journey then I would have got the end, proud of myself of having made the journey - coming to a place like this to carry on the (eternal) mental journey - but I would go stealth. I'd have picked fought and won my battles, I'd have been out enough whilst transitioning and looking to transition. If it were me, I'd say that the old soldier(part) has had their battles and now is time to fade away.

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 09:52:31 PM

In our community because we all have a very strong binding in one area, I think the tendancy is to asume we all agree as one. Well we don't. That seems clear to me.
But I do like knowing where people are and are not comfortable going so that I can respect that. and I like to hear when someone says somthing is important to them.
Their tone speaks a lot about what kind of priority it is. And I like to know that.
Personally, I don't mind my views being challenged. And well they should be. If someone can introduce a new perspective or a way of thinking I have not considered...Good for them! There lies a true friend.

To be who I am is more important to me than to be who you think I should be. There's my line, Sara. You are welcome to hold that same line. Or not.

You see, my dear, my parents, teachers, family, society has held that assumption "that we all agree" as well. Hmm, as I recall they were as insistent as you have been through this thread. You may well have experienced the same. I didn't like it then; I don't like it now, assumptions like that. If you have, indeed, been under the assumption that we all agree on that, then you haven't paid attention.

I have no wish to be 'out and proud or to tell people I am TS. You see, TS=transitional to something else. As you have been told before it's like a bridge from one side to another. Or, like a pupa stage in the growth of an insect. It is not a permanent stage that I wish to walk about declaring myself to be for the rest of my life.

But, if it pleases others to do so. They have that right. If they are passionate about it, perhaps they have an obligation. I don't. I do have a membership in NOW, though.

To tell you the absolute truth, I have no dog in the fight over TG rights. Although I firmly believe all people deserve respect as human beings, that diverse expressions and ideas should not only be available but also be protected, and that the people who express and hold those ideas, customs, etc also need protections.

But do I wish to be a part of that protected class when it comes to walking daily through my life? No. But people in transition should be. I would like to think that I would be for that regardless my medical history. But please, leave me out of the (woman*) group. No asterisk is either desired or necessary.

So what we share is our common humanity. I am sure that transsexuals share GID. I am not always sure at all that all gender-diverse people share that.

My point in this thread has always been that we can talk and disagree but that it would be nice to do so recalling our common humanity -- not our common goals and ailments. Because, I am not convinced we have either of those at all. In fact, there is much to convince me that as a group we do not.

N~

I cannot imagine what else requires saying here. Thanks to all who contributed.




Posted on: January 12, 2008, 11:51:04 PM

---

Changed my mind. Be nice and you can say more. I don't think I have the last word. Well, not necessarily.

Quote from: Nichole W. on January 12, 2008, 08:03:31 AM
I just don't see what's accomplished with the in-fighting and sneers at others.

It's probably unavoidable, sadly.

Many people are deeply, DEEPLY invested in their labels as a source of identity, meaning and purpose... AND as a rationale for why they transitioned. Acknowledging the validity of competing views often threatens those fragile foundations.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 12, 2008, 11:33:22 PM

Quote from: Nichole W. on January 12, 2008, 08:03:31 AM
I just don't see what's accomplished with the in-fighting and sneers at others.

It's probably unavoidable, sadly.

Many people are deeply, DEEPLY invested in their labels as a source of identity, meaning and purpose... AND as a rationale for why they transitioned. Acknowledging the validity of competing views often threatens those fragile foundations.

~Kate~

I would also have to say that is most likely unavoidable. It is a part of human nature to classify and place things into categories and label them. It has in the past served as a vital tool to the very survival mankind. While we like to think we are far removed from the cave, the truth of the matter is that in the grand scheme of the universe we are still in diapers...any attempt to change peoples categories and labels often meet with resistance and fight...we are all human after all.........

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I was thining about what you were saying Nichole.

So for you, if I am understanding you correctly, Trans.<blank> means transition.

Somthing along the way to somthing else.

For me. and most people I know who are not Trans. (as far as I know) the word means other things.

For me personaly , it is just a label designating me or someone else as MTF or FTM in some gender varriant sense. That would apply then even after a surgery was completed.
AS One would always be MTF or FTM as one cannot change where one came from.
For me it's also more than that. It is a very poor label for somthing else: a third position.
You see for some, trans. may be just a road on the way to a destination; a transition.
For others like me, the road is the point. it is the destination. or at least a third position. Some place more like a corner on an equalateral triangle than a deviding line between two halfs. There are no halfs as far as I see it (note, I said 'I'). there are thirds.

So it's a different perspective. I am female, but also more than that. I don't reject my other aspects of my personality. Even if being female is what is dominant. I have always felt more comfortable in female clothes, restrooms, behavioral habits, tendancies etc.
I even always used to carry my backpack as though it was a purse( I didn't realize this until I started coming out). So for me, I can not say "transitioning" is an accurate term.
I am not transiting anywhere. I am just "changing". I have always been this way, and now I am honest about it rather than hiding it. Boobs and other changes are a natural part of this for me. But I would not say that I am not gender varriant, as I am and so seems just about everyone on this forum.

We use Trans* as a matter of convenience, as an easy way to identify ourselves to one another and our communities. More importantly They use trans* as a means of identifying us. I don't argue with them, and rather than educate every person I come in contact with about the subtle differences, I just go with it.
Thats my choice I suppose. But it has become somting of a common definition. and I would immagine that most people would view a MTF or FTM as a "Transexual" regardless of whether one has surgery or not, or completed srs or not. That is how they view us.
I can tell them I am Woman untill I am blue in the face, some people are always going to view me as "trans" regardless of surgery. The very fact that I might have surgery is what confirms the label for them. To many people a "trans" person is someone who has had or wants to have SRS. So when I use that label, I use it in the common sense, because that is what everyone else (outside of the 't' community) does.
Now, within the community is a different matter, but, quite frankly I think we are outvoted.

I once heard a Woman refer to herself as a "ex-paleotransexual woman".
I am not kidding. What does that mean? To her it meant peleotransexual as meaning that she was an "old-school" transexual that came out before the 90's. paleo meaning "old-school" "ex" meaning that she no longer was a "paleo-transexual" as she had completed her SRS and was now just a woman. So, "ex-paleo-transexual woman" was her title to her.

Now I'm sure she put a lot of thought into this, and it seems quite well thought out and it undoubtedly is an accurate description of her.
But here's the thing: No one else is going to call her this or use this. The rest of the world is going to call her a "transexual". They just are.(for one thing, it's ten sylables long!) So what does that mean? There are common use definitions of words. If we insist on using our own personal definition of a word and don't use the common definition of the word, we will find ourselves being misunderstood, confused and otherwise looked strangely at like why we just don't speak enlglish and stop calling a "->-bleeped-<-" a pack of cigarettes (lol sorry, that was a cheap shot at British people) But you get my meaning.

So I don't really know where I am going with this, but I think that example illustraes my point better than I can say.

Sara

what should be accomplished is a "mental" transition.  once people transition mentally, they will be able to understand why the term "trans" is offensive/inappropriate to others.

Quote from: Natasha on January 13, 2008, 12:08:40 AM
what should be accomplished is a "mental" transition.  once people transition mentally, they will be able to understand why the term "trans" is offensive/inappropriate to others.

Transition is about getting over *ourselves*, IMHO. And to some degree, that means getting over "being a transsexual." Whenever I see all the attempts at public education that transsexuals just Ordinary People, I often wonder who they're REALLY trying to convince: The public? Or themselves?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 13, 2008, 12:30:51 AM

Quote from: Natasha on January 13, 2008, 12:08:40 AM
what should be accomplished is a "mental" transition.  once people transition mentally, they will be able to understand why the term "trans" is offensive/inappropriate to others.

Transition is about getting over *ourselves*, IMHO. And to some degree, that means getting over "being a transsexual." Whenever I see all the attempts at public education that transsexuals just Ordinary People, I often wonder who they're REALLY trying to convince: The public? Or themselves?

~Kate~

it's usually the public as they can never understand that we are "normal" women or men that were born with a birth defect.  you don't see this kind of chaos with someone that was born with down syndrome or a cleft palate, do you?  the public (transsexual and cisgender) need to understand that we are no different from someone who they consider "normal".  the moment this is accomplished is what i usually call "mental transition".  we are not different, we are not freaks.  this needs to be understood and until that that happens, people will not understand one another.

Quote from: Nichole W. on January 12, 2008, 08:03:31 AM
About 99% of the time I agree with the more 'stealthy' responders in what they say. One transitions, when MTF, to being a woman. Not a trans-woman, not a TS, not a gender-queer. Otherwise, seems to me, that the entire movement is absolutely pointless.

That 1% of the time disagreement is mostly made-up of angry, in-your-face attitudes toward those who are different.

No, transitioning was not 'fun;' it was scary for awhile. A really big deal for me. Some of the after-effects were not fun either, but, except for government things, those are past. And so do not affect my daily life.

I have no wish to be 'seen as transsexual.' Is that a form of 'internalized transphobia?' Don't know, don't care. If someone is bothered by me stating that I am female, have always been and now I am 'read' as female does that affect me? Not on your life. It obviously DOES affect them and it's up to them to find what is bothering them and why. Not my problem.

Nichole

Nicole, great post!......especially this bit...I would write something exactely like that and have done in here before and got blasted for it......why because it's right on the money and some people seem to have a problem with that...but it sums everything up very acurately.....

I think most any TS would love to be able to transition into stealth.  After all, why would anyone WANT to expose themselves to prejudice, hatred, discrimination and intolerance?  The problem is not everyone can live in stealth.  Now we could say, "Gee too bad for you" and walk into our stealthy lives, but is that what we want?  Susan Stanton recently took that position and look what happened to her.  The majority of us don't want to leave anyone behind. 

I'm sure many who leave the trans world (because they can) never think "too bad for you" but I do know transwomen who simply don't want to turn their world upside down by coming out as a transsexual.  That's perfectly understandable.  Still, I find myself troubled by the fact there are some who will never be able to be stealth.  And if we don't do something to change public opinion they will have very tough lives while those who were blessed live peacefully in stealth.

We all can relate to what it's like having a mind-body gender conflict.  And we all know society can be very cruel when they know this.  So I believe for those who can live in stealth their hearts go out to those who can't.  But what does one do?  How can we live in stealth and still show the public there are a lot of us out there living very normal lives?

We want to change the negative stigma society has of us.  That change can only happen when people who live, work and interact with us see we are just ordinary people with an extraordinary challenge.  But if you are totally stealth how can you do this without outing yourself?  It's a catch 22.

I don't have an answer but I feel deeply for our brothers and sisters who will never know stealth.  And I want to do what I can to make their lives better.  If we can accomplish that won't it eventually make every one's life better?

Julie