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What does science tell us about boxing's gender row?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/boxing/what-does-science-tell-us-about-boxing-s-gender-row/ar-AA1ouaI3?ocid=windirect&cvid=329353fe49274a1dbcfd24e8dac60a5a&ei=18

Story by Sofia Bettiza - Gender and Identity correspondent (8 Aug 2024)

A frenzied debate has raged over the International Olympic Committee clearing the duo to compete in the women's boxing in Paris, despite them having been disqualified from last year's Women's World Championships for failing to meet eligibility criteria.

Amid the heat, science is shedding increasing light on our different chromosomal make-ups and what advantages they may bring to sport.

But the research is ongoing and even among the experts who spend their professional lives working on it, there are differing interpretations on what the science tells us.

We do know that the process of sex determination starts when a foetus is developing. Most females get two X chromosomes (XX), while most males get an X and a Y chromosome (XY).

Chromosomes influence a person's sex. But hormones are important too, before birth - as well as later on during puberty. While the baby is still growing in the womb, hormones help the reproductive organs develop.

However, at some point through the pregnancy some babies' reproductive organs don't develop in the way most people's do.

This is known as DSD: differences of sex development.

If she was born female then should be no dispute that she is female ever, including in this newer age of enlightened thinking that someone can change their sex.  She did not change her sex so should not that satisfy the non transgender supporting athletic federations?  I have not read about her chromosomes situation and what the different athletic federations / eligibility rules used to make their rulings.

But if she took testosterone or other banned drugs at levels not allowed, she should be disqualified.  I am not saying she did that.

Life can be complex nowadays. 

Those with high athletic skills of either sex may be on the extreme performing end, so in this case, perhaps she could punch harder than almost any other female.

I have not watched any of the current Olympics, unless it happened to be on while I was eating out.  Been volunteering in my spare time so I guess I have had differing priorities these past two weeks.

Chrissy

The problem isn't a scientific one.  Scientists have a good understanding of the biology of sex and gender. 

The problem is that "man" and "woman" are social constructs.  It is a social decision, not a scientific one, who gets put in which box.

Since time immemorial, the decision was made by the doctor or midwife attending a birth.  What they said was definitive.  And 'phobes still throw that in our face whenever they want to cause trouble. 

Now, however, the decision as to how to decide the right pigeonhole for any given person is a moving target.  Do you use the traditional genital sex classification even though that omits trans people, or chromosomes even though, as the article states, that is not at all definitive, or do you use hormone levels, or MRI scans? 

For the people whose goal is to cause trouble, they use whichever one is convenient at the moment for causing the most outrage.  As soon as it became evident that the Algerian boxer was always a woman according to the traditional genital sex method, the trouble-makers switched to using chromosomes. 

As far as sport is concerned, and the highest levels of sport... this isn't a debate. It's about what gives someone the edge. (btw I clicked on that link and it said the story is unavailable).

The link is working for me, I'm not sure why it isn't working for some people. Then end of the article states:

For now, science is not yet able to offer a definitive view on how people with differing chromosomal make-ups should be categorised for the purposes of elite sport. For those who spend their lives trying to make sense of the science, their hope is that this latest row will propel much-needed research.

Love always -- Jessica Rose

Quote from: KathyLauren on August 09, 2024, 04:25:26 PMDo you use the traditional genital sex classification even though that omits trans people, or chromosomes even though, as the article states, that is not at all definitive, or do you use hormone levels, or MRI scans? 

And how does that apply to someone who is post-op? I always wondered what evidence do school children need to present to the bathroom monitor. Does everyone need to drop their pants for inspection before using the bathroom? In sports, a simple physical exam should be enough to shut everyone up. But haters gonna hate.

Quote from: Jessica_Rose on August 09, 2024, 04:44:53 PMThe link is working for me, I'm not sure why it isn't working for some people. Then end of the article states:

For now, science is not yet able to offer a definitive view on how people with differing chromosomal make-ups should be categorised for the purposes of elite sport. For those who spend their lives trying to make sense of the science, their hope is that this latest row will propel much-needed research.

Love always -- Jessica Rose

Quote from: Lori Dee on August 09, 2024, 04:49:09 PMAnd how does that apply to someone who is post-op? I always wondered what evidence do school children need to present to the bathroom monitor. Does everyone need to drop their pants for inspection before using the bathroom? In sports, a simple physical exam should be enough to shut everyone up. But haters gonna hate.

It isn't though, Lori. Because unless you can categorically show that someone AMAB has the same physical characteristics as someone AFAB... this will always be a thing. Because at the very highest levels, any edge you get, even if it comes down to something you don't want to be a thing... it will be a thing.

For every other aspect of life, this will never be an issue, but for Olympic sports, and sports in general, it will be. And I doubt it will ever not be. It's not about definitions. It's about biological advantage. That's all it's about. It's not about hating. It's about someone having physical attributes associated with one thing going through puberty vs the other thing going through puberty. Because they are distinctly different. And that's where a lot of this incendiary stuff comes from. It doesn't matter if you are a woman or a man.. it matters if your body went through puberty as a woman or a man. That's where a lot of this stems from. Because in evolutionary terms, it's very different.

It's not that different from taking performance enhancing drugs... only people are trying to work out how to classify the body's natural performance enhancing drugs. Hormones.

Unfortunately, this whole debacle is social and political, not scientific. It is driven by the evolving mindlessness of social media, the far right, and the World Boxing Association's war on the IOC.

I am seeing false facts being posted, and even one claiming that 4 days ago the Algerian Boxer was thrown out of the Olympics and sent home to Algeria. Hundreds of people commented, completely believing the ludicrous post. So many people have surrendered their knowledge to whatever they read on their feeds. These people vote, and it's scary, as the far right has used this.

Some years ago, the IOC sacked the WBA from involvement with the Olympics after a scandal exposed dishonest behaviour from the Russian management. The WBA has been carrying on like it actually has a role in the Olympics, demanding further testing, and challenging the eligibility of the 2 boxers in an effort to publicly discredit the IOC, so they might get control back. The WBA is simply not relevant to this competition, and any thinking person should just ignore them.

In terms of the boxers, none of us know their biological makeup, or their hormone levels. What we do know is that they were scrutinised by the IOC and admitted to this competition as compliant with their rules. That simply means they are eligible to compete and medal.

I did hope that some of the public discussion would educate people as to the complexities of biology, but instead have been disappointed in the level of mindlessness of too many on social media, and even the broader media. And I didn't have high expectations to start with...

Hugs,

Allie

From what I read, they went by the gender listed on their passport. I am sure all athletes undergo testing for drugs and hormones. If they passed the tests, who are we to complain?

Quote from: Allie Jayne on August 09, 2024, 05:44:44 PMIt is driven by the evolving mindlessness of social media

As most things are these days. The old adage of giving monkeys typewriters, or opposable thumbs... I bet the person who came up with that never envisaged this, lol.

BlueJaye is a member here, she is a boxer I think.

Quote from: Lori Dee on August 09, 2024, 05:50:28 PMFrom what I read, they went by the gender listed on their passport. I am sure all athletes undergo testing for drugs and hormones. If they passed the tests, who are we to complain?

I hope so... but this is why I haven't been even caring about this whole thing. Every story you hear is "Yeah they won gold... but....!" or there's always some controversy. He or she got disqualified! Like and subscribe! Or someone getting sent home. It's quite abhorrent. This is the social media olympics, as Allie alluded to. It's like 99 problems but the curling ain't one! If this is the future of what this is all about... sign me out. I have much more important things to care about. :P

I do know quite a lot about the situation. Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting were a threat to Russia's undefeated boxer's record in 2023. According to the IOC, the IBA (the organization owned and operated by Russia) "cobbled together" some phony gender tests "overnight" to disqualify the two boxers, then announced that they had failed their "gender tests".

Angela Carini, the Italian boxer who quit her match against Khelif and then cried on camera about how hard Khelif was hitting her, is being paid $50,000 by the IBA (the same corrupt organization that disqualified Khelif in 2023) for tossing the fight.

The whole situation was a setup by the IBA to try to advance their own fighter to the Olympics and gold medal.

I can also say that the boxing world is in a full blown civil war over the controversy. I have seen people I personally know making absolutely insane statements online. I've had major sports publications reaching out to me. I've had two attorneys contact me. I've stopped talking to people who I thought were friends because they suddenly became vicious toward me.

I hope that something good can come out of all of this. But I don't know if the good will outweigh the damage already done by the bad.

Quote from: BlueJaye on August 09, 2024, 06:15:43 PMI do know quite a lot about the situation. Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting were a threat to Russia's undefeated boxer's record in 2023. According to the IOC, the IBA (the organization owned and operated by Russia) "cobbled together" some phony gender tests "overnight" to disqualify the two boxers, then announced that they had failed their "gender tests".

Angela Carini, the Italian boxer who quit her match against Khelif and then cried on camera about how hard Khelif was hitting her, is being paid $50,000 by the IBA (the same corrupt organization that disqualified Khelif in 2023) for tossing the fight.

The whole situation was a setup by the IBA to try to advance their own fighter to the Olympics and gold medal.

I can also say that the boxing world is in a full blown civil war over the controversy. I have seen people I personally know making absolutely insane statements online. I've had major sports publications reaching out to me. I've had two attorneys contact me. I've stopped talking to people who I thought were friends because they suddenly became vicious toward me.

I hope that something good can come out of all of this. But I don't know if the good will outweigh the damage already done by the bad.

Thank you for bringing your firsthand knowledge to all this. From what you've said, it seems very seedy, mafia levels of manupulation. Which is just... gross. And why people just stop caring about sport. Which is a massive shame.

Quote from: Sephirah on August 09, 2024, 06:21:37 PMThank you for bringing your firsthand knowledge to all this. From what you've said, it seems very seedy, mafia levels of manupulation. Which is just... gross. And why people just stop caring about sport. Which is a massive shame.

Literally mafia. Russian mafia runs the IBA. That was why the IBA was kicked out of the Olympics a while a back.

Quote from: BlueJaye on August 09, 2024, 06:27:03 PMLiterally mafia. Russian mafia runs the IBA. That was why the IBA was kicked out of the Olympics a while a back.

Good. It should be about the people, not the politics, or the paychecks.

Sounds like a new type of a "low blow" call to me if the shenanigans presented are factual.


Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on August 09, 2024, 07:07:18 PMSounds like a new type of a "low blow" call to me if the shenanigans presented are factual.


Chrissy

Your avatars are fantastic! <3

Former athlete here. (Mtf)

Biological men should never compete against women, regardless of hormone levels. They've experienced male puberty, and even if they haven't, their cells are still male which gives them a competitive edge. It's just like how we ban people for doping.

Khelil is a biological woman according to Algeria, however being xy is still an unfair advantage. Intersex people should not be allowed to compete against women, either, cause they can still have male characteristics.

This is not a hill anyone should want to die on. Allowing people to compete against women based on how they identify will only turn the world against trans issues, and it'll affect trans resources because it can be used as an excuse to limit access to hormones/surgeries for people who desperately need it.

This is not a trans rights issue. The Olympics is not about rights, it's about privilege for a select few with the ability to compete under fair rules and regulations.

Current athlete here, and boxer. You don't know what you're talking about.

Quote from: Ruchi on August 10, 2024, 12:23:52 AMFormer athlete here. (Mtf)

Biological men should never compete against women, regardless of hormone levels. They've experienced male puberty, and even if they haven't, their cells are still male which gives them a competitive edge. It's just like how we ban people for doping.

Khelil is a biological woman according to Algeria, however being xy is still an unfair advantage. Intersex people should not be allowed to compete against women, either, cause they can still have male characteristics.

This is not a hill anyone should want to die on. Allowing people to compete against women based on how they identify will only turn the world against trans issues, and it'll affect trans resources because it can be used as an excuse to limit access to hormones/surgeries for people who desperately need it.

This is not a trans rights issue. The Olympics is not about rights, it's about privilege for a select few with the ability to compete under fair rules and regulations.

Ahh, if it were only this simple!

Alas, we are early into research about competitive advantage of the various sex and gender identities, but we already know there are some activities where there could be advantages, and some activities where there are disadvantages. Elite sports celebrate biological advantage, Phelps with his limited lactic production is well known, but many other top athletes have similar biological advantage. As the French say "Viva La Difference!"

We know that there are variations in sexual development, and genetics are way more complicated than most of us understand. Intersex people can have a wide range of attributes, and that trans people on hormones develop differently depending on genetics, age, and even the skill of the doctors. They have identified MTF people who retain more muscle after hormone therapy, but this can become a disadvantage due to their haemoglobin levels falling to female range, which denies the larger muscles oxygen to be efficient. This is more pronounced on endurance activities, so may have no effect on short duration activities.

All this points to possible disadvantages, and possible advantages. On the surface, it seems we are chasing fairness, but it gets more complicated when there are countries reputations, sponsors profits, and all forms of media involved. I would hate to be charged with finding solutions for all this. One of the first lessons we were taught at school was the fable of 'trying to please everyone', lesson being, it simply can't be done.

I live in a country which has a great (not perfect) legislation in our Discrimination Act. It protects the assets of race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and gender identity from discrimination, but added a clause for sporting bodies, allowing them to make case by case decisions to preserve fairness. This means that if an individual had advantages which threatened the viability of competition, the body could impose restrictions. The problem for the IOC and other such bodies is to make rules to make competition even for a species which has significant diversity. We are learning that this might just not be possible. It may be that all abilities grading might need to be adopted, or that dominant individuals would need to be restricted.

Part of what we want from elite sport, is to find heroes and heroines (not sure of the non binary term) like Michael Phelps, so would we, in the interest of fairness, have tolerated seeing him somehow restricted so his dominance was negated. Ahh, if it were only this simple.....

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Ruchi on August 10, 2024, 12:23:52 AMFormer athlete here. (Mtf)

Biological men should never compete against women, regardless of hormone levels. They've experienced male puberty, and even if they haven't, their cells are still male which gives them a competitive edge. It's just like how we ban people for doping.

Then we get into what is your definition of "biological men"? Science has proven that sex is not binary. Do we base everything on DNA tests? Is someone with Kleinfelter's automatically disqualified? What about other gene mutations causing things like AIS.

This is clearly political because no one is complaining about "biological women" (FtM) competing in men's sports. Why not? There are plenty of cases where FtM athletes have competed against men and won. No one complains. Is it because men do not want to admit that they got beat by a girl?

If we are going to go down that road, maybe we should also disqualify people from certain countries due to their genetic advantages. I read an article years ago that discussed why African countries excel in running sports. It was about genetics, but also their culture.

It isn't about genetic advantage at all. Some athletes indeed have something that improves their performance, but that doesn't mean they can't be beaten by opponents of any sex with extensive training.

Personally, I think they should throw out all the rules and regulations. Let them dope up with PCP or whatever. Let's see what a human is really capable of. If you don't like the rules, if you think your competition has an unfair advantage, don't compete, or "git good". Everyone who made it to the Olympics knew what the rules were going in. Whining because you got beat is just immature. Give them a box of tissues and a Participation Trophy then send them home.

Quote from: Ruchi on August 10, 2024, 12:23:52 AMFormer athlete here. (Mtf)

Biological men should never compete against women, regardless of hormone levels. They've experienced male puberty, and even if they haven't, their cells are still male which gives them a competitive edge. It's just like how we ban people for doping.

Khelil is a biological woman according to Algeria, however being xy is still an unfair advantage. Intersex people should not be allowed to compete against women, either, cause they can still have male characteristics.

This is not a hill anyone should want to die on. Allowing people to compete against women based on how they identify will only turn the world against trans issues, and it'll affect trans resources because it can be used as an excuse to limit access to hormones/surgeries for people who desperately need it.

This is not a trans rights issue. The Olympics is not about rights, it's about privilege for a select few with the ability to compete under fair rules and regulations.

This is a hill that I am prepared to die on. It's also a hill that I am prepared to send others to their deaths on. You are absolutely off base with your allegations about the Olympic boxers in question. You're also basing your assertions about transgender people on nothing more than your feelings. There is no data at all regarding the performance of transgender people in boxing. You will make a fool of yourself if you keep going down this path with these unfounded arguments.