Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ever since I went public, my mom fails to fully understand why I enjoy cross-dressing, and she wishes the whole thing would just go away.

There are a lot of reasons for her not accepting it, but here's one I'd like to hear your opinions about.

She thinks that my cross-dressing is insulting to women. There's so much more to being a woman than the clothes and makeup, but by thinking that clothes and makeup make us more feminine, we reduce women to creatures to whom fashion and appearance are everything and are the essence of being a woman. Our attempts at looking like women is a parody of what real women look like and a gross exaggeration of what women think is important.

Now I feel that one of the reasons we like to dress is because we love women and love how they look. If anything, there's an aspect of jealousy in some of our dressing. There's also an aspect of jealousy when we see a beautiful woman and think "she's beautiful" and "I would love to be able to wear that outfit and look beautiful, too."

I'm trying to get past instant reactions. I can understand part of what my mom is saying. Most women I know don't spend a lot of time obsessing over their appearance. They're too busy doing really important things like working, taking care of children, trying to keep in touch with friends and family, trying to figure out how to make the world better and probably spending too much time on taking care of other people and not enough time taking care of themselves.

Many of us cross-dressers invert this by having a somewhat selfish attitude to cross-dressing. We don't get dolled up so we can make a dish for the person down the street who's not feeling well or visiting an older relative in a nursing home. We mostly do it for the thrill (sexual or, for many older CDs, a different kind of relaxed / energized feeling).

Still, I get that being a woman is not about finding that perfect pair of pumps and sending notes to girlfriends telling them how their new outfit is sooooo cute. But, there are aspects of being a cross-dresser that are. I don't think that just because we emphasize what we think are the fun things about femininity that that makes what we do insulting to women.

What do you think?

Gina  :icon_dance:

Are Cross-Dessers Insulting To Woman?

only if they want to be ......

Are women insulted by crossdressers?

only if they want to be ......

Just my thoughts for what they are worth ........ likely not a lot  :-\

As long as Brittany Spears is alive, CDs are never going to insult women any better than women can.

And 80% of retail space in shopping malls is dedicated to woman's fashions, it would seem that some women place a premium on looking good.  Not all, but more than a few.

Hey Stephm, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. It gave a different view of things. You're absolutely right that cross-dressers can only be insulting to women if they want to be. look at Ru Paul or Boy George for example. Whenever I get dressed and go out, I always try to blend in. Sometimes I see expressiosn on ladies faces and I know that they're insulted by me just being me, so I just smile sweetly and move on.

Very good point there Tekla. As long as Britney Spears continues to do what she's doing, cross-dressers will never be insulting to women.

Gina  :icon_dance:

I often wonder if the times I pass, people don't just think I'm an ugly lesbian. I suppose that's insulting to women.

Quote from: Autumn on January 20, 2008, 08:50:24 PM
I often wonder if the times I pass, people don't just think I'm an ugly lesbian. I suppose that's insulting to women.

In sometimes wonder the same thing.  But I am not intending to insult anyone.  Hopefully they just have no idea what is going on.

But if I gave it a really half-hearted attempt and went out looking like Max Klinger, I think that would insult women.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on January 20, 2008, 09:00:36 PM
But if I gave it a really half-hearted attempt and went out looking like Max Klinger, I think that would insult women.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Gee, I thought Max was kind of cute  ;) Actually, he was a decent trans character for commercial TV, although they always described his motives as doing it to get out of the army, never suggesting that he cross dressed because he liked to do it.

For the most part, I don't think cross dressers are insulting to women, however there are some CDs who are very misogynistic, and that is insulting.

y2g

My wife and some of my female friends say like "however much you look pretty, you are anyway a man. No jealousy at all." And they scoff at me  :-\.

Barbie~~

I always thought that Klinger was an interesting character study.  For a TV series, MASH did the odd thing and got far more serious and introspective as it went on, instead of getting more and more stupid until they Jump the Shark, which is the common way to go.  So the Klinger at the end of the series was far different from the comic relief he was in the beginning.  So where the early ones with Frank Burns are often dumb, the later ones with Winchester are a far different deal. 

Quote from: barbie on January 22, 2008, 08:09:06 AM
My wife and some of my female friends say like "however much you look pretty, you are anyway a man. No jealousy at all." And they scoff at me  :-\.

Barbie~~

I know exactly what you mean there Barbie. I get the same thing from my family as well, and it's becasue of the fact that they've known me longer as my male self then they have as my female self. I'd love to be able to leave for ten years and come back as my female self. Do you think that might change their opinions?

Gina  :icon_dance:

Quote from: Gina_Taylor on January 23, 2008, 05:48:29 AM

I'd love to be able to leave for ten years and come back as my female self. Do you think that might change their opinions?

Gina  :icon_dance:[/color]

Hi, Gina,

Indeed I came back in about ten years to my country here. Reactions of my parents, relatives, old friends, and colleagues differed, but generally were negative. Nowadays most of them accept me as I am, but still consider me as a man. They simply evaluate me as positive because of my masculine ability such as research and leadership.

Sometimes some people do praise some aspects of my feminine appearance, but it is not sexual at all. Usually it is a kind of joke and I enjoy it simply because I can make people smile and happy.

I have a lot of female friends compared with about 15 years ago. I work closely with a female colleague who I first met about 15 years ago. She is not so much open to male colleagues, but I am an exception.

Last year, she complained as a kind of joke that I am too slim compared with her, and some people joked that I am like a sister and she is like a brother, and etc. She openly said that she began dieting seriously because of me. However, I chat with her regarding fashion and cosmetics. She even helps me braid my hairs and decorate accessories. My wife also does the same.

I am sure she is not jealous of me. And, she knows that I do not intend to insult any woman. But the consequence is that I made her start dieting. It was for her own purpose and her own beauty to show in her own outer world.

Nowadays, she and a few other female colleagues even recommend me to wear mini skirts and heels at work place. Their suggestions are not to see my beauty as a woman, but for my convenience, I am sure. All of them seem to become familiar with me who wear light makeup. A few of my male colleagues who were very negative on my wearing makeup seem to become more generous nowadays.

At work place, some young girls wear leggings and heels with miniskirts. I envy them because they can freely wear them. Last year, I did wear 2.5 inch heels at work place, but never again after seeing the disturbance. This time, hopefully I will wear legging and miniskirt at work place without making a fuss.

Barbie~~

Hey Barbie, that's really interesting that even though you've left country and retuned in ten years a different person, people still treat you as your previous male self. Don't you correct them and make it known that you're no longer that person? I know I would if I were you, but that's just me. Not that I've ever seen your male self, but I do think that you do look beautiful as a woman. That's really good to hear that you're still married, but are you (forgive me for asking) a CD or a TS?  That's really good that you inspired your colleague to start dieting.

Gina  :icon_dance:

Hi, Gina,

Thanks for comments.

Sometimes I strongly eagled to be a woman before I married. Those strong feelings now diminished as I think more and more about my kids and their future. I am not sure whether I am CD or TS, but I guess the two are overlapped. Certainly I am now closer to a CDer.

My young daughter is about 4 years old, just starting speaking. I am little perplexed when she says like "dad is pretty". She is very interested in my fashion items, asking a lot out of curiosity.

I do not want to urge people to recognize and admit my feminine side. It is their choice, and I just display myself. When strange people call me as a man, I am sometimes a little bit upset, but I accept it anyway. Also, some people in cars tend to study my face and body. Their eyes easily meet my eyes, and I think it is rather rude, but I should accept it because I think my unusual appearance first attract their attention. Most people comment that I look 'exotic'.

I already saw changed attitude of my old acquaintances. Some became more friendly to me, and female friends no longer are afraid of me as a man, even in the same bed. Next weekend my old female schoolmates will visit my town to see me. They think I am a kind of celebrity.

Negative thing is that strange people tend to look down on me when I look feminine, and I realized what ordinary women experience everyday.

Barbie~~

That's very interesting Barbie, and thanks for sharing this. Now basicaly you're more leaning towards  your feminine side though and at least your work does allow you to go dressed as a woman which is good. But I don't understand why the problem with the shoes?

Gina  :icon_dance:

Quote from: barbie on January 23, 2008, 11:27:35 AM

Quote from: Gina_Taylor on January 23, 2008, 05:48:29 AM

Nowadays, she and a few other female colleagues even recommend me to wear mini skirts and heels at work place. Their suggestions are not to see my beauty as a woman, but for my convenience, I am sure. All of them seem to become familiar with me who wear light makeup. A few of my male colleagues who were very negative on my wearing makeup seem to become more generous nowadays.

At work place, some young girls wear leggings and heels with miniskirts. I envy them because they can freely wear them. Last year, I did wear 2.5 inch heels at work place, but never again after seeing the disturbance. This time, hopefully I will wear legging and miniskirt at work place without making a fuss.

Barbie~~

Hi Gina,

I'm not sure if it's a question of insulting so much as it is about the time we spend on our primping at the mirror.  I am very guilty of my vanity when dressing. I was married for 20 years to a woman that found out about Jenifer, and for a while she said she was OK with it. That didn't last long. She always made the comment about the time I spent preping myself. I never did get the courage up to tell her that if she spent a few more minutes herself she could go form very pretty to extremely ravishing.  As in the other comment so far a woman has far to many things to keep her away from the mirror and focused on 'reality.' CD's on the other hand aren't tied to those constraints, for the most part anyway, and a jealousy factor plays more of a role in this than an insult I believe. Insults and jealousy do go hand in hand when it comes down to it. All I know is that hopefully one day my shackles will be released and Jenifer will blossom into the woman that she should have been before the Genitc Gods played this cruel little trick! If women are insulted over it, or jealous......oh well, maybe they should seek therapy themselves, or just build a bridge and GET OVER IT!  :D
Have a wonderful life Gina!
Jenifer Nicole

Thanks Jennifer for those kind word of encouragement. I do realize that we always want to look our outstanding best and it's not that we want to over do ourselves and make ourselves look better than women, but like you said if women would just take a little extra time in primping themsleves then there would be no competition between us. I just recently told my girlfriend about my being a cross-dresser, but she hasn't physically seen it yet. I'm sure that that will be a horse of a different color if that ever happens.  But tell me Jennifer, have you ever been out or do you do your cross-dressing at home? I think that if you were to leave the confines of your home and actually start to go out you'd be taking more steps in breaking the shackles and it will allow your feminine side to blossom more.

Gina  :icon_dance:

hi all

imho i think that we as cds are not insulting to women i think we are trying to express our female sides.

Quote from: Gina_Taylor on January 26, 2008, 06:49:34 AM
That's very interesting Barbie, and thanks for sharing this. Now basicaly you're more leaning towards  your feminine side though and at least your work does allow you to go dressed as a woman which is good. But I don't understand whyt he problem with the shoes?

Gina  :icon_dance:

Hi, Gina,

Even though all of my clothes are women's, there are a few items that can make a fuss in my workplace. Skirt, heels and probably manicure. These are symbols of women. My work place is a goverment research institute and I am an public official, sometimes representing my country. There are many regulations, but fortunately no dress code. I do not wear short pants at my work place, but I do wear capris in summer. There is no coded rule, but I should decide by myself. Sometimes, I can encroach on those implicit rules, looking responses of people here. I do take care of others.

Barbie~~

Hi Barbie,

In my workplace, which is a home improvement business, which is also run by my parents, my mother gets after me if my fingernails has a clear nail polish on them after I've seen my manicurist but I've really got to watch it when ever I wear my pantyhose. She's very observant at times and she'd see the band of my panty when ever I'd stretch and because she's so much against my lifestyle she'd get upset about it. So I just have to be mentally aware of what I'm doing at all times. A dress code has never been enforced, but unfortunately there is the right to work law here, and even though I am her child, she could still terminate my employment with them. So at times there is so much to take into consideration.

Gina  :icon_dance:

I don't see how cross dressing is insulting to women. It may be jealousy that some times we look better.  I see your mother's about being a woman being more than dressing up but I have done housework and taking care of a child also. I guess that I don't look at housework as women's work necessarily.

I cross dress because I enjoy it. I look at it as me paying homage to women. I dress in a way as not to bring disrepute to women. Women have many choices that men don't have. Bright colors, more styles to choose from. They also have intuition, perspective, and different thought process from men. That's why I pay honor to them with my dressing.

Gennee   

Quote from: gennee on January 28, 2008, 11:51:13 AM

I cross dress because I enjoy it. I look at it as me paying homage to women. I dress in a way as not to bring disrepute to women. Women have many choices that men don't have. Bright colors, more styles to choose from. They also have intuition, perspective, and different thought process from men. That's why I pay honor to them with my dressing.

Gennee   

Very well said Gennee, and yes I agree with you 100% that women should relize that we are paying them more homage than they realize instead of thinking that we're insulting them.

Gina  :icon_dance:

Back to the original question, I had a conversation recently with a woman (she knew nothing about me) who told me, "It gives me the creeps that there are guys out there pretending to be women when they are not!"  This was with a group of women.  Not all of the others around her agreed, but most did.

Sadly, I think many women do feel this way.  I personally think it has more to do with crossing into taboo territory, the fear of the unknown, and their own insecurities.  But that's just my opinion.  It is a rare woman who realizes that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I think there are exceptions to every rule.

What woman doesn't want attention from the gorgeous, well-to-do guy they pass every day?
What guy doesn't want attractive, thin women to be interested in him?

Even married people enjoy the attention/self esteem, even if they have no intention of cheating. Also assume I'm talking about straight people up there.

Inversely, the creepy, socially awkward, greasy kid is like a vaginal blowdryer, and clingy fat bitches can lead to spontaneous temporary homosexuality.

Generalizations are the norm in conversation and human behavior. It's like my late great uncle who supposedly was put off "->-bleeped-<-s" but couldn't ever actually think of a black person that he didn't like after meeting them. Really kind old man who was generous his entire life, just from a different generation.

The generally held belief is that a crossdresser is a pervert in it for something sexual and obviously it's scary to think that places of sanctuary are infiltrated by rapists and creeps. It's hard to educate against generalizations when it comes to crossdressing because if your cover gets blown, ->-bleeped-<- hits the fan, and it's kind of awkward to broach the subject with strangers.

That's why I just crossdress whenever possible and everyone's like 'badass shoes Autumn! those kick ass' and 'that's a great shirt.' Of course if I was like 'thanks, I got it from Victoria's Secret :v' they'd probably give me a very weird reaction.

There are gender stereotypes and these stereotypes are often demeaning to women.  Some crossdressers can be seen by women as simply reinforcing these demeaning stereotypes, for example, the crossdresser who dresses and acts as a "dumb blonde".  Not all crossdressers are like this (and of course none of us here at Susan's are like this) but some of the more visible crossdressers can be perceived this way.  Women who say that crossdressers insult women may be basing this judgment on a stereotype of crossdressers.

Personally I consider myself a feminist crossdresser.  Like other feminists I would say that gender stereotypes can be demeaning, but I regard my crossdressing as serving in a small way to break down the gender stereotypes.  "Men aren't supposed to wear a skirt and makeup", says the stereotype.  "Sez who?", I say as I put on my lipstick.

It's probably a very insecure woman that which gets insulted by a crossdresser... she should probably grow up.

Crossdressers are not insulting to this woman. 

And in my humble opinion, any woman that is insulted by a crossdresser is a petty fool, but something tells me that is probably not the only social group they have problems with.

Hmmmmm. I haven't really paid that close attention to other women going past me but I notice enough times to notice if some are kind of male like looking women, or androgynous in appearance or just simply knock out gorgeous and making me feel extremely jealous. I do have have both women and men stop to take a good look at me, but their usually the blank type that appear to be more puzzled looking, like they just felt something more then actually see something. Especially children.

As for the CD question on how women feel about CD's to be sure they don't think anything one way or the other about CD's not that I am aware of anyway. If anything I believe women are more willing and ready to accept what ever is rejected by most of society.

Cindy 

Quote from: siouxsie on February 22, 2008, 02:06:49 PM
Crossdressers are not insulting to this woman. 

And in my humble opinion, any woman that is insulted by a crossdresser is a petty fool, but something tells me that is probably not the only social group they have problems with.

I agree.

When I was in the States, a women of late 40's once vehemently protested against my crossdressing. But, not at me, but at my wife. Once she scorned at me even I was in man's dress by saying like "how could a man have such a thin waist" and etc. She was more like a man rather than a woman, and a catholic. She was outspoken and frequently quarreled with other women regarding other issues. The problem was not what she says, but how she says.

On the contrary, one woman of late 30's once praised my beauty when I was fully in woman's mode. She said like "I really wish I would have legs like yours." She is usually quiet and busy taking care of her kids. Her little kid sometimes calls me as 'pretty man'.

My female colleague at my age in the next room is a closer friend to me. She often says that she seriously began dieting because I was slimmer than her. She admires my intelligence rather than my fashion. Still, she even recommends me to wear mini-skirts and heels at work place, which I daren't do.

It depends on personality.

Barbie~~