Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In the following post, I don't claim to be right.  It's just my subjective opinion. Let me apologize beforehand for the following view which, I know, is counter to what many or most think.  My bringing it up is only in an attempt to SAVE LIVES. 

I've always been wary of "group-think."  Sometimes it's right.  And sometimes it causes me to ponder.  Contrary to popular opinion, I've always felt that transitioning is reversable if YOU, in your heart, are so terribly unhappy that want to go backwards.  Ignoring this possibility, most "experts" state, once you start transition, it's "irreversable."  It's often spoken as a threat, "Once you start, you can't go back!"  That just doesn't seem logical to me.  I figure, if soldiers can come back with arms and legs missing, nothing is unfixable.  If you don't have a fingers or eyes, you try something else.    If, after SRS, you're terribly unhappy to the point of killing yourself, you'll have learned a valuable lesson:  DON'T DO DANGEROUS THINGS.  From this vantage point (after SRS), what is the next worst case scenario (one that most people tell you at the beginning that you cannot do)?  You transition back to manhood and become a guy without a dick.  Plenty of people don't have functioning ones.  I never particularly cared for sex so, for me, that worst case scenario wasn't a biggie.  For those who love traditional male/female sex, presumably it would be.  I imagine that the only reason people don't offer that worst case scenario above is because there is a fear that some young TS's might take transition less seriously.  I have more faith in the intelligence of young people to see things the way they really are:  Of course, transition is serious -- DEADLY SERIOUS!  You can wreck your life trying to do it.  Some people in Louisiana are committiing suicide because they've lost everything.  Transitioning can do that, too.  In the 90's, I heard a sobering statistic.  At that time, so they said, half of the TS's die before reaching the age of 30.   But, better than suicide would be to go back.  Some "top" surgery and you're back to manhood.  I propose this scenario only to try to save someone from killing themself if transitioning doesn't work out.  There's one good thing about going back:  You'd still be breathing in and out.  It's not perfect but it's a heck of a lot better than being a stiff in some morgue.  And maybe next time you face a big problem, you may just opt for the SAFER PATH.  There are all kinds of interests in life - golf, gaming, travel, scuba diving, nature walking, astronomy, architecture, art, music.  Many a great mind has obsessed over these pastimes and not died from it.

Me.  I'm happy with my path.  I'm not going back.  Not for anything.

Teri Anne

QuoteIn the 90's, I heard a sobering statistic.  At that time, so they said, half of the TS's die before reaching the age of 30.

If that statistic is anywhere close to accurate than there are some serious short-comings in the "gatekeeping" and psychological support! Is SRS being seen as a "cure-all" for the sexually confused?

In the 1960's the life expectancy of an identified TS youth was about 30 years but that was before readily available SRS. In the 1970's I never heard of a single case of suicide among former TS (those who had SRS). (After that I was out of touch with the community.)

With late transitioners who have lost a good marriage, children, maybe a good job, and may not be able to integrate into life as a woman I can see where the "costs" of transition are VERY high. If life post-op did not provide the expected rewards I can see where there would be a feeling of having lost everything.

Of course many of us who transitioned early (in the 1970s) lost everything to but we went on to build a new life in a new place.

There is always hope as long as we make the decission to LIVE.

Hi, Jane!
You must have been picking up my brain waves or something because I've been wondering where you've been -- hadn't seen you in awhile.  I've always enjoyed your takes on various topics.  Your views always seem logical and grounded.

The 90's era statistic I mentioned didn't relate to post ops -- it just said that "half of the TS's die before reaching the age of 30."  It's my THEORY that many died due to the trauma of transition.  During my transition, reading that half of TS's died before 30 hit me like a punch in the stomach.  It made me want to run and get involved with something, anything, to distract my mind away from my feelings of gender dysphoria.  Even more than the hoops that psychologists make you jump through to get the letter, I was very concerned that the trip to assuming my "true self" might cause, through the angst of transition, my demise.  Like many others before me, my chief concern was whether I could handle society's way of looking at my new exterior.  I like being liked and this seemed like a sure-fire way to become, at worst, a freak to society.  Inside, I had no problems.  If I was on a desert island by myself, I would have had no angst problems transitioning.

As you mentioned, Jane, hopefully things are a lot better now than in the 60's and 70's.  And things were better in the 90's but, still, being a pre-op transsexual was no picnic for me.  I lost work and lost some people I thought were my friends.  I heard, through the rumor mill, of people laughing behind my back.  At times, this tore me apart.  Hearing horror stories of what other TS's were going through in the 90's as they tried to transition didn't help:  A friend of mine told me that her father would have preferred that she be a murderer than a TS.  Another friend (who worked for an insurance company) was told that, when she needed a restroom, they had set up a porta pottie shack out in the parking lot -- she was not allowed to use either the men's or womens' restrooms.  And this was the late nineties!  Nowadays, just six years after my SRS, I see that the internet is motivating younger generations of TS's to remove a lot of barriers to personal freedom.  Just like that guy who stood in front of a tank in Tien Amin Square in China, younger TS's realize that they, too, have freedom -- KNOWLEDGE IS FREEDOM.  Through this knowledge, they will transition in their teens (like many of us would have liked) and they will look beautiful.  And beauty has a way of making impossible things more possible.  I doubt that, today, half of TS's die before before the age of thirty.  It's probably a LOT less. But, for some, there is still huge trauma with the RLT.

Despite newfound freedoms today, many TS's, YOUNG and OLD, are still really good at "churning" problems internally.  We've seen that here at SUSAN'S.  I remember doing that in my transition.  At that time, I read a psychiatry book that stated that, if you churn problems repeatedly in depression, it's a medical probability that you're setting your brain up to re-churn later on:  You'll be okay, then you re-churn -- you'll be okay, then you re-churn.  Reading that, I tried my best to not churn my problems.  But it didn't always work.  When things got bad during transition, like many before me, I considered suicide.  I felt if the world wouldn't let me be female, the world wasn't worth living.  My post here regarding possible U-turns offers another possibility.  For many TS's this "transition or die" can almost take on the form of a mantra.  Kids shouldn't accept this as a battle cry or as the only possibility but you can get locked into that way of thinking -- especially when the "experts" are telling you that, "once you start, you can't go back."

There is ALWAYS a third choice -- you can do a U-turn.  Most of your friends and relatives will thank you for it.  You might even get your job back.  You might even find out, through this experiment called "transition," that its cost, for you, isn't worth the trauma.  And, over time, this all-consuming obsessive NEED to transition may get pushed back in importance.  I'm glad I finished transition (for me, it was like going through a war).  Bottom line, I'm happier now.  But not everyone will be.  I think there should be no embarrasment or shame for anyone for making a U-turn, be it during transition or even, at the extreme, after SRS.   Nothing in life is carved in granite and you only have a short amount of time here on earth.  The experts and my fellow TS's should consider not saying, "Once you start, there's no turning back."

Doing a U-turn and LIVING is always a viable option.

Teri Anne

Teri Anne;

I was struck by a thought as I read your latest post (having been interested in the topic and the various points of view.)

You are essentially suggesting that transitioners mentally consider an emergency exit.  It's a trick I've used on myself in the past when I faced near-intolerable pressures at work or in life.  At work, for instance, when I'd be forced to put up with the same $#!^ day after day of supervisors tasking me with three times more work than I could handle and then expect that it ALL be accomplished ("You FAILURE!!! <BwaHaha>), I'd just remember that I COULD quit, escape the bad situation, and face whatever consequences THAT act brought me.  The funny thing is, it usually gave me the inner strength to bear it a day or week or month longer.

"Churning" -- interesting term.  I guess I've done a lot of it myself, having tended to nurse and cherish resentments.  So, how does one short-circuit that learned behaviour?

Finally, you're right that family, friends and coworkers will be relieved that you gave up transitioning, but was it for your own good, or for theirs?  One of the terms I keep seeing over and over again is used by SO's, family, friends, coworkers and other peripheral stakeholders in the transitioners' 'life'.  The word is "SELFISH" -- as if using that word will magically shame the transitioner into stopping the process and going back to being a 'normal' person, whatever that is.

I'd like to turn it back on all the people that use it against the transitioner, "You are selfish."  How does the transitioner's transitoning affect you that you feel the need to inhibit/stop them from doing this to themselves?  Does it upset your belief that the gender one has is determined by whether the birthing doctor sees a penis or not on the newborn, and by no other standard?

I'll stop now, because I'll just start churning my resentment at people who feel the need to shove their warped world-views down the throats of those who are not behaving in accordance with the way they believe they should behave...

Teri, I'm not trying to undercut your simple suggestion that transitioning is never one-way, can't stop, no-U-turn, that there IS ALWAYS an escape.  I have no problem with a transitioner choosing to stop because they decided they want to stop, or they no longer want to transition. 

But I think it's not good if a transitioner stops ONLY because of outside pressure, and because they "SHOULDN'T" or "MUSTN'T" transition, or "SHOULD" or "MUST" stop (If you're using those words to justify your decision, you're in trouble...  That transitioner likely has other issues with self and with relationship to family, friends and coworkers that it would be a good idea to be explored and dealt with. 

I hope we get more posts, more points of view on this topic, though,  That's one interesting can of worms you opened, Teri.  I wonder how much bigger a container we'll need to put them all in?

Haz

(EDIT: Spellos, of course-- )

Hi, Hazamu!

I'm glad you found my post thought provoking.  I know many may be aghast at my call for freedom, fearing that thousands of kids will take up being TS if we don't sternly warn them:  "There's no going back!"  I liked your comparison to the U-turn being an "emergency exit" for gaining inner peace during transition.  In putting up with crap at work, knowing I can quit certainly HAS, as you said, given "me the inner strength to bear it a day or week or month longer."

Many beginning TS's FEAR TRANSITION because "no going back" intimates it's a one-way street.  It's ridiculous.  People saying that have obviously forgotten what the initials of RLT stand for -- "Real Life TEST."  In a test, you experiment, and if things blow up, you return to the status quo all the wiser vowing, "I'll never do that again."  I'm not ADVOCATING anyone transition but I do feel, if GID TS's are self-torturing themselves, the RLT TEST is designed to answer all the questions beginning obsessive TS's always ask over and over and over.  And, even if transition (or, in the worst case scenario, SRS) doesn't work and you decide to do a U-turn, you'll have accomplished one big thing:  You'll never again be tormented by the question, "WHAT IF?"  And, as I said earlier, you probably will be more risk averse  -- your mind will shout, "DON'T DO DANGEROUS THINGS."

Hazamu, you asked, "How does one short circuit that learned behavior [churning]?  Psychiatrists often say, "Recognize the problem and you're half way to the solution."  Just REALIZING that I was churning was my first step.  Later on, when churning began to happen, I said, "Aha!  I'm not going to let you control me.  I now know the consequences of churning (more churning) and so I'm not going to let you do this to me!"  My gender therapist placed great emphasis on the word "CONTROL."  It's what they teach in the military so that you don't freak out when there are dead bodies all around you.  Controlling churning, by contrast, should be easier.  And, don't forget.  Males are taught to not churn.  They solve problems   It's not a bad lesson for either gender.

And I agree with you, Hazamu, that if you do a U-turn, it should be for YOUR reasons and feelings solely.  To do anything else will not end that torment, "What if?"  The end goal of transition should be inner PEACE. 

Going along with the "group think" of others won't get you there.

Teri Anne
Hugs, Teri

There is going back at all parts of transition, but if you going back you migth not get all you have in the first place.

So there is a point of "no-return" in the physical meaning.

But the point of transition is to be oneself.

Now, yes there is a "going back" and there is a "stop"

Many ppl think that transition must be in one way and all the way, and thats plain.... wrong.

In my support group last Friday I met a woman who told me she was born intersexed, was surgically modified to male after birth and then transitioned three times.  I assume, of course, that between those three times she went back to presenting as male.  So, it's not unheard of to make that u-turn, for this one person, at least, it was done at least twice!

That said, I'm sure that some things would be forever lost every time the transition, in either "direction," is made.  Any major life change carries that risk!  New job, new town, new school, new gender, they all cost something more than money.  If I worried too much about all the losses from the changes I've already made in my life I'd still be working as a minimum wage factory or store grunt instead of a degreed engineer.  I would stagnate.  I need at some point to say, yeah this might happen but the gains could readily offset that risk.  To continue to question would breed indecision.  Of course, avoiding the decision by continuing to question it has some advantages also.

I read a statistic that claimed a 95 to 97% successful outcome from SRS surgery.  I think it was on the HBIGDA web site.  I can't remember how success was defined in this case but that seems to be pretty good odds.  If I choose to fully transition I'm sure that losses will occur but by the time that decision is made I will know if it's worth the risk.

helen

In another thread somewhere I said that If there is anyway you can NOT transition do it.  Run fast and far if you can.  I don't see it as a scale of 1 through 10, its 1 or ten.  Either you make it out the other end whole and complete or somewhere along the line you have left little parts of the person you were and want to become.

This isn't Kansas, you ain't Dorthey, and clicking your ruby red slippers together won't take you back to where you started from.

Helen, yes, I remember those "95 to 97% successful outcomes" with SRS.  'Course since no doctor or organization has asked me since my SRS in 1999 if my transition was a success, I tend to wonder what the reality is.  It's the same with orgasms.  I've wondered how many post ops have had successful "O's" -- many surgeons describe that their method is best in retaining "O's" but I've never heard of an organization polling all of the post ops (In my case, I presumed I'd lost the ability - imagine my surprise, a year later, to find that I could!  Sometimes it just takes time for the nerves to reconnect).

Dersi, you said that "the point of transition is to be yourself."  I agree but would add that it also is to see how well you mesh with society because, to paraphrase, "No woman is an island."

Leigh, I tried those ruby slippers but they hurt like heck so I never did take them along.

Teri Anne

Found-One slightly used pair.  Will return to owner upon payment of postage and handling.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy6%2FLeighS%2Fruby.jpg&hash=0f50cecff0fd1c31614e9c9c287faadb03f5efe2)

I believe that is why the doctors and psychologist and such set up the Harry Benjamine Standards of Care. So we go to someone to talk to about all of what is going on with our brain. So we have time to adjust to what is going on with our bodies while transitioning, before we do something permanent. I know some of the young people think they don't need all of the hoops that go along with this, but I feel that they are very important. I have known two people who were not satisfied with the results and wanted to go back. Both of them were young and they knew everything. I believe there is a group dynamic going on with some, especially the young. They want to fit in. Yes, you can go back without parts, but will you be whole. It isn't like you had an accident or you went off to war and this tragedy happened, no, you did it to yourself. This is very serious and you should take it very serious.
Sheila

I've been down that road...started and stopped. I wished I hadn't now knowing what I do now.

Let me get this right. Being TS is not curable in any way but transitioning (to what point depends on each person). It will never go away. It gets worse the older you get. Are these facts?

If they are, then starting and then going back  may be good for somebody that misdiagnosed themselves wich I think would be easy to do given the lack of hard evidence of what a TS is. I'm not sure if I fear transition in the sence that there is no going back...but in the sence that I could NOT go back. Once the process starts, it will be to late to turn back to a normal male life. Once the house is sold and the divorce papers are filed, the job is lost, then umm...I can go back but never to the point where I started.

Given the fact that I have had many doses of hormones previously I still have boobs. It would take about two months of HRT to go back to the small b cup I left off with. I have lots of tissue below and I still have small breasts. If I started HRT again then I would have to have top surgery to go back as well.

For those just starting out, that are young, they do not have as much to lose or unlearn. That doesnt mean they should transition without knowing that is dangerous. It's a deadly thing.

I agree that if it came between dying and going back, then going back would be better to those that know that individual. Maybe not to the person themselves. Being TS skirts the edge of suicide for many most of the time. If the time comes up where it is time for me to come out, I am going to ask if they would rather have me dead, or living as a woman. Either way Iagree with you Teri that going back would be better then being dead.

I feel I have to make the right decision for myself for my own credibility. How much of that do you lose by transitioning then going back? People are going to think you are nuts for doing it to begin with but to go back? They are never going to give you the respect for not being able to make up your mind. Face it, to transition and be happy with yourself and interact with others as your desired true gender is very important. I have read stories where some have transitioned and become hermits. They either made poor choices, or misdiagnosed themselves. If you are a man 1 year then a woman the next then back to a man.....there isnt going to be very many ppl left in your life to interact with.

For me, I'd lose many pieces of my life  in a transition. I would hope they are all pieces from my childhood, and my male life. Mine are to painful to want to go back to and pick up. They are tainted and torn. I would want to leave them. They idea is to not transition if there is any other way to not do it. I'm with Leigh on that one. If it is possible in any way, I will never do it.

Knowing I may have to sets up all the fears. Knowing I could never go back to the starting point gives me fears of knowing I have to be right. Coming up with the right decision is causing the churning. Perhaps I should take a mini vacation from myself...lol..right..like that will happen  ::)

i think it would be better to point out that transition means many things. It could mean just wearing panties everyday, or doing a little more. It doesn't mean going all out all the way. There is a point where going back would be to hard and to exspensive.

Sheila, I agree with you that transitioning should be taken seriously.  I don't think I intimated otherwise.  You can't get more serious than suicide.  My only gripe is that people, half way through transition, get frozen in the mantra, "Go all the way or die.  Transition or death."  Those two options are mentioned so often in transtioning that anyone considering a U-turn probably thinks that the status quo is to CONTINUE.

You stated that post ops "can go back without parts, but will you be whole?  It isn't like you had an accident or you went off to war and this tragedy happened, no, you did it to yourself."  Yes, true enough.  I agree.  But if the post op is terribly unhappy (who knows what the REAL statistic is for happy post ops?), and you want to die because you feel that's the only option left, that's foolishness.  Choosing life as a man is better.  Will you, as a returned man, have a peaceful life?  I think it all depends on how prone you are to self-torturing yourself.  I tend to look on the positive side of things.  I would tell that man that, yes, what he did was a terrible mistake.  Yes, it's going to be embarrasing for awhile 'till he finds someone.  But he felt had to do it and he's wiser now.  There's the potential for a good productive and loving life.  If this man is in his late fifties or sixties, I'd tell him that some or many middle aged women don't crave sex.  My ex didn't but, when she dated, she ended up with a bunch of men who tried to have sex but couldn't because of dysfunctional erection problems.  Men still CRAVED sex but they couldn't deliver.  Many older women are quite happy finding someone who just wants to hug and be close.  I know I'm that way.

Believe it or not, there is on this planet, a love for most people.  But you can't find that love if you're lying in a coffin.

Teri Anne

Aside to Leigh - Where'd the girl in the ruby slippers disappear to?  Maybe you should consider them lost and try selling 'em on EBAY.

I'm kinda finding the "half of TS people die before 30" claim rather dubious. A quick look at google revealed nothing of that sort. But a high ATTEMPTED suicide rate is common, and I'll yield that TS people probably commit suicide at a rate higher than just anyone else.


http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/transgender.htm

quote:
Suicide and self-harm
Both suicide attempts and completed suicides are common in transgendered persons. Studies generally report a pre-transition suicide attempt rate of 20% or more, with MTFs relatively more likely to attempt suicide than FTMs. There is some evidence that transsexual people are less likely to attempt suicide once they have completed the transition to the other sex . . .
[note: 20% -- this is ATTEMPTED suicide rate -- not the suicide rate.]


http://www.fsw.ucalgary.ca/ramsay/homosexuality-suicide/02-england-scotland-ireland.htm

quote:
Ken Plummer, from the University of Essex, reported on the GBL youth problem: "For instance, the negative self-image and worry may be so extreme as to lead to thoughts of attempted suicide. Indeed, in the London survey, nearly 1 in 5 [20%] had made a suicide attempt; in the Bye's survey of isolates, it was nearly 2 in 5 [40%] ; and in the survey conducted by Parents Enquiry in 1982, some 55% had made a suicide attempt. These are desperate acts and worrying figures that have been indicated in other research studies too." Note:  The reported attempted suicide rates are similar to the 20 to 42 percent results stemming from an assortment of North American G(L)B youth samples studied between 1970 and 1994
[again, ATTEMPTED suicide rate]

Well, as Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) noted, "There are three kinds of lies:  Statistics, statistics and statistics."  Whether it is a few or a lot, we know it happens disproportunately more in our TS community than in average society.  The reasons cited in your post, Alexandra, point to some of the specific causes but it doesn't take a rocket scientist or psychologist to arrive at this basic human frailty:  TRAUMA BREEDS SUICIDE.

Lately, as I mentioned, there is a higher incidence of suicide in the New Orleans area.  Doctors say it often happens six months after a huge traumatic incident.  It's no secret why they feel miserable, without hope.  They feel they have lost everything.  I choose, by this post, to tell TS's on the transition path that all is not lost if things don't work out.  I know you've given up jobs, friends, relatives but all is not lost.  If you f$#ked yourself up in the grandest manner imaginable - by having SRS and STILL finding great sadness and trauma - there is only one thing you should do.  Ignore the naysayers and people who say, "I told you so!  You butchered yourself!"  Force yourself up onto the LIFE BOAT.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

Teri Anne

Aside to Leigh - EBAY says your slippers are up to $150 grand.  I think you should sell.

                I do not quite believe the 50% suicide rate before 30 but I would suspect well more than half of the TS suicides are comitted before the person comes out, therefor never entering the TS statistics. I came very close several times and not one person would have guessed why.




beth

Hi teri,

I'm sort of an expert on statistics  ;) and if 50% of TSers were killing themselves, academics would be all over this. heck, if I was working on a doctorate, THIS would be the topic of my dissertation!

But I agree mostly with everything else you're saying, and the suicide rate, whatever it is exactly, is just awful for us.

Indeed, your posts makes me feel fortunate that I've always been mostly "okay" with who I am and never felt suicidal as it often happens to our sisters and brothers.

Alexandra - Maybe the academics would.  Maybe they wouldn't.  To investigate that statistic, academics would first have to CARE about us.  I've heard a lot of people in Africa die each year.  Getting people to care is the hard part.  If how a drug affects 50% of society (women) is not studied until recently, I sense that we would be even less worthy of their interest.

Beth, you said, " I would suspect well more than half of the TS suicides are comitted before the person comes out, therefor never entering the TS statistics. I came very close several times and not one person would have guessed why."  Good point!  Perhaps as the stigma and fear of transition is lessened (as society becomes more tolerant of our dilemma), more will live.

Lori, yes -- For many of us, the gender dysphoria gets stronger as we get older.  I've often wondered if transition in the late forties and fifties is our TS form of midlife crisis -- "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna stay a guy anymore!"  You see the end of your life is a lot closer than the beginning of your life and, as the sanitized television version of the feature "Risky Business" said, "Sometimes you just have to say, what the heck!" 

Teri Anne

Leigh, the ruby slippers are up to $200 grand.  I say, "sell it," and take us all on a cruise.

Perhaps this should be a new thread, but I had a few tired thoughts this morning...

•   WHY must the body match the mind? So SOCIETY sees what the TS feels? It seems it all boils down to appearances. You (the MTF TS) want to be/act your true self (a woman), so in order to be accepted you must APPEAR to be a woman. You believe your brain is female, that is, you associate with things characterized as female, but if you "acted" like a female you run the risk of ridicule or ostracism. To blend in, you would need to change your shell with clothes, make-up, electrolysis, longer hair, FFS, hormones, SRS, breast augmentation, and/or voice training. (Not necessarily in that order or all-inclusively.) <OR> Is the need to transition totally internal? Transsexualism is indeed very complex and under-studied. But I could liken it to bulemia or the woman who hates her nose or the wrinkles around her eyes. The bulemic has such a distorted self-image that he/she almost kills himself/herself trying to shape the body to the image. Women have plastic surgery all the time, not necessarily because society forces them to, but because they believe their nose is too big/crooked/square/pointed and have it corrected to be happy with themselves. If society was more open to males who acted female and/or wore "women's" clothes or make-up, would there still be the need to transition? Probably so I guess.
•   There is no true definition of femininity. There is nothing that says factually THIS is feminine but THAT is not. It's a matter of opinion. Natal women in general set the standards for femininity. Femininity is a CHARACTERISTIC of the female sex, not a definition of it. "You are feminine, therefore you must be female" is not a true statement. If natal women wore what we currently characterize as masculine, it would stand to reason that the MTF TS would want to wear it too. If mastectomies became fashionable or logical for the general female population and "everyone is doing it", it would stand to reason that the MTF TS would not want breast development in order to blend in–to APPEAR female.
•   Certainly transsexualism exists in third world populations. What does the transsexual do? Does their "primitive" society accept them as is? Do they feel they must APPEAR female because they believe they are female? Or is their feminine behavior tolerated and they don't feel compelled to change their shell? I haven't looked into this on the internet. Perhaps those more in the know can enlighten me.

It's unfortunate, but I believe society compels many TSs to transition. "We" are not accepting of those who don't fit the pegs of male or female. In fantasy, no one would need or want to transition in the first place so there would be no need for the U-turn lane.

First, on the 50% suicides: I escaped in 1974 and lost contact with the TS community when I went stealth. Prior to that time I had perhaps a dozen close friends who were TS and attended 3 funerals - that's a 25% mortality rate. There were others who just dropped out of sight and nobody knew what happened to them. Myself and one other girl escaped in 1973/74 and I don't know what happened to those who were left behind.

The figure for the high success rate originated in the early days of  SRS and were based on the number of patients who simply disappeared into the woodwork after SRS. One must remember that SRS was extremely hard to come by in the 1960's and 1970's. For an individual to reach SRS, they had already been through the grist mill and suffered god-knows how much sh!@ and abuse. To reach SRS was an indication that the person was strong, fairly smart, damned determined, and fairly resourceful. If a person had the where-with-all to beat the odds, they had a  pretty good chance at success on the other side.

Spouse: In a great many "primitive" societies, transsexual individuals are accepted and respected members of the community and live in their chosen gender role. They are often highly respected as being "gifted" with special vision and knowledge.

I can not speak for others but for me, a former TS, the need to alter the body was intense and had nothing to do with the rest of the world. Were I to live alone on a remote island, I would have taken an ax and hacked it off myself! I  AM a woman - 32 years post-op have proven that to me - and I always WAS a woman/girl and that is why I hated that deformity so. I lived a dual life for over a decade (my teens) so I had the opportunity to live part of that time the way I felt I should have been from birth but all that did was to intensify my hatred of being deformed. I was never "a man" or "a boy" and I was punished for "acting feminine" but no punishment could stop me from being and feeling what I felt.

My adopted Mom opposed my transition right up to the day I left. I told her I had to be free or die - she said "It would be better you killed yourself than to do this." Since that  day in the spring of 1974 I have live a wondrous and glorious life - a thousand times better than my wildest dreams - and turned out to be a far better person than I had any hope of becoming. I am happy, well adjusted (better than most people in general), productive, and touch people everyday in a good way, and fully integrated into womanhood many years ago. Of the thousands of people I know and who know me, the idea that I was ever anything other than "just another woman" would be inconceivable!

Transition? For me, the difference between Heaven and Hell

It seems to me that the compulsion to a TS to alter their bodies to bring them into alignment with their inner gender is matched -- or exceeded --  by the compulsion for Others who come in contact with the TS to tell them they 'mustn't' undergo transition (not even 'putting that $#!^ in your body',) that they 'should' live out their lives in their birth-body-gender 'for their own good,' then hand out the you-can-be-a-woman-in-your-drams-that's-okay booby-prize (no pun intended,) because the Other got what he/she wanted -- to prevent the TS from transitioning.

Why is that compulsion so strong, and so widespread?  Are you Others really giving such counsel for the benefit of the TS who desperately wants/needs/is obsessed with transition, or for Your benefit?

To the TS:  I wish that, like the homes for unwed mothers of yesteryear, there were a place we could go 'visit' for two or three years and come back fully transitioned.  When we came back, we'd still have to deal with a lot of $#!^ from those who knew us before and whose expectation apple-cart we upset, but we'd have a chance of making new friends/acquaintances/contacts who -- because their perception of us was untainted by our 'before' selves, would be more likely to accept us as we are.  This, I think, is the root of the desire of the TS to 'pass'.

It's sad but true that there are people in the world who feel the cruel, irrational (MY judgement,) 'need' to punish/put down/treat as sub-human anyone they believe is strange/weird/freak.  I know these people well, having been forced by the many "Them"s to deal with their sick, cruel words and actions because they perceived me as different/effeminate/weird/freak/etc.  I've (wrongly) been called '->-bleeped-<-got!' by these sociopaths.  If I transition, that's going to increase (and they'll still wrongly call me '->-bleeped-<-got!"...) -- I know it to be so, but now I'll know the reason for their deeds.  If I do nothing (i.e., not transition,) It won't go away -- if I spend enough time interacting with others, another sociopath will identify me, and another, and another...

Cast in that light, what choice do I have?

Haz

Quote from: spouse on March 14, 2006, 07:49:27 AMIf mastectomies became fashionable or logical for the general female population and ?everyone is doing it?, it would stand to reason that the MTF TS would not want breast development in order to blend in?to APPEAR female.

I don't know... it might depend on the person. For myself, having breasts is something I'm very much looking forward to, because to me they're a part of femaleness. It wasn't always this way... before I knew I needed to transition, breasts were just not a part of my personal definition of what a female person was. I determined people's gender by their face, voice, body language - that was it. Only when I was able to simulate having breasts myself did I realize how great it would be to have them for real.  :)

Quote from: Hazumu on March 14, 2006, 10:01:23 AMI wish that, like the homes for unwed mothers of yesteryear, there were a place we could go 'visit' for two or three years and come back fully transitioned.

What a great idea!!! Makes me wish I had the $$$ to set one up. But then, I guess it would have to run on donations and I don't know how much there would be to go around. :-\

Quote from: spouse on March 14, 2006, 07:49:27 AMFemininity is a CHARACTERISTIC of the female sex, not a definition of it...

What an excellent post! All questions I've been asking myself for a couple decades, lol.

My first therapist asked me a simple question which totally stumped me: "Why do you want to be a woman?"

Sounds simple, right? But try as I might, I just couldn't come up with any "because then I could..." answers. It was then that I realized that for me, the drive is to be FEMALE, and not necessarily to be feminine. I don't want to be female "in order to..." anything. I'm not looking for an excuse to wear sexy clothes. I don't want an excuse to act feminine. I don't particularly covet the woman's role in society. I'm not trying to have sex with men.

That's not to say I don't feel more at home being feminine, wearing women's clothing, and acting in traditionally female roles. But they're all consequences, artifacts of being female, and not the goal or driving force behind my urge to transition.

What I seem to need is to switch contexts, to operate from and be perceived in the context of a female - with all the resulting implications (but not FOR those implications). True, if society was perfectly accepting of TSism, and granted me the legal recognition and social roles of being female (while remaining physically male), that would at least grant me the context of being treated as a female. But in the end, that would be no different than if I put on a wig and dress and managed to "pass" every day as a woman. I'd be "faking" it, and I'd be constantly aware of that.

So it's not the results or consequences that I seek and need, it's the cause, the context that creates them...

QuoteMy first therapist asked me a simple question which totally stumped me: "Why do you want to be a woman?"

I remember being asked that! My answer was "Because I am." How did I know I was? I don't know, but that didn't lessen the fact that I KNEW!

Why do people fight us? Because they have not the least idea what it feels like! They are at home in their own bodies - we ARE NOT! - not until after they are repaired.

I was asked that too. What do you think would be different if you were a man? I said that I felt that I would feel that people were seeing me, not someone they've constructed in my place.

The therapist then asked what would be different in your life if people saw you as male? I said that I didn't think anything concrete would. I didn't expect that doors would open that were previously closed, or that anything else earth shaking would happen, just that I would feel more comfortable in my body.

Which has (mostly) turned out to be true. There are still social aspects that are a little odd for me. I must develop a more instinctive approach to handshaking and standing up when a woman enters the room, but I'm getting there.

edit: and the only "door" that has opened for me is the men's room, which isn't a place I would have gone through all this to get to.

Dennis

My goodness, it's all intriguing stuff that you'all brought up.  My subjective point of view:

SPOUSE - I heard my ex bringing up some of the same issues with me and I feel for your hurt and disillusionment.  You asked, "WHY must the body match the mind?  So SOCIETY sees what the TS feels?  It seems it all boils down to appearances."  I can only answer for me.  I transitioned because (1) I hated my appearance in the shower.  It disgusted me (obviously, this has nothing to do with society).  (2) The other reason I transitioned was because I felt more comfortable IN SOCIETY as a female.  It wasn't based on a desire for breasts (I never have had an interest in them - they're just there), clothes, makeup, stereotypical "feminine" things.  To tell you the truth, when I hear a commercial spouting "it makes me feel feminine" it makes me feel nauseous -- it's too cutesy for my taste. 

You asked if society treated me as a female (by my wearing female clothing) would I be satisfied?  I'd be 50% satisfied.  Unfortunately, it doesn't get rid of problem (1) my repulsion of my previously male body.

You stated that "Natal women in general set the standards for femininity.  Femininity is a CHARACTERISTIC of the female sex, not a definition of it."  Yes and no -- The male society (as supremacists) also set the tone for what is stereotypically "feminine" behavior.  In the 50's, for example, women were very subservient to "Father Knows Best."  "Check with your father"...."Oh, you're so clever, dear."  That kind of talk again turns my stomach.  I've always been a liberated person, both male and female.  These days, I feel that the ROLE society places men in is kind of a box.  Staying a man would have kept me in that box.  I enjoy a wider range of emotions, both happy and sad, both intellectual and silly.  Is it fair to put men in a box like that?  Of course not.  When will they ask for liberation?  So many don't realize they're in that box.  Obviously women have had many problems breaking that "glass ceiling" to advance in companies.  I see women as being more progressive than men as far as freedoms.

As to more "primitive" societies (who knows who is really more advanced?), the American Indian called people like us "two-spirits" and, like Jane said (about other primitive societies), considered us "gifted" with special vision and knowledge."  If society treated me that way, again it would solve only 50% of the problem -- it wouldn't get rid of the hatred of my former body.

Spouse, you talked about how bulemics and regular women can have distorted views of their beauty and so opt for operations.  I didn't do this to look more beautiful.  My goal was like the goal of a lot of TS's:  To look like an AVERAGE woman.  You might want to talk to F2M's about their reasons for transition.  It helped me feel more at peace with my decision to transition.  Society doesn't go around criticizing them because of frivolous pretty appearance issues.  It could be that the male is just considered wiser by society and thus shouldn't be questioned.  Women often are portrayed by society as stereotypical blonde airheads.  The fact that some women enjoy acting like silly blondes (like Marilyn Monroe's in "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend") just reinforces that negative image.  If we want to transition to be females, surely something must be wrong with us?  It must be as trivial as the already beautiful wealthy Beverly Hills heiress wanting multiple cosmetic surgeries.  It's more complicated than that.
_____________________________________

JANE - You mentioned that "the figure for the high success rate [of SRS] originated in the early days of SRS and were based on the number of patients who simply disappeared into the woodwork after SRS."  Simply disappearing is not a valid poll.  There are plenty of people I know who have lost their unemployment insurance because they STILL can't find work.  Yet, the government insists that we have 4% unemployment.  Only 4% are REGISTERED.  The true statistics for both could be quite different.

You said, "Were I to live alone on a remote island, I would have taken an ax and hacked it off myself!"  While I agree totally with this - I feel the same way - I sometimes wonder if (1) that island only had one inhabitant, me, and (2) I didn't know what women looked like, would I have wanted to grab that ax?  Would this gender dysphoria have arisen in me?  I doubt it because I wouldn't have known any better.  Perhaps I might have felt a body-mind mismatch but wouldn't know why?  Seemingly, "gender dysphoria" requires you to live in a society of both men and women -- by observing women as you grow up, you come to the realization that, inside, that woman acts, talks, emotes more like me.  Why don't I look like her?
_____________________________________

HAZ - Your idea for a home for beginning TS's has crossed my mind, too.  It is a natural human emotion to seek out people of your own kind.  When I was in Montreal for my SRS, Dr. Menard had a house by a lake wherein we all stayed both before and after the operations.  Sometimes, Menard would suggest that the scheduled patient come a few days early before the SRS.  I did that and had the time of my life talking with people in my same boat.  My fondest recollection was meeting F2M's for the first time.  It, as I mentioned earlier, gave me peace to know that they were going in the opposite direction. 

I was always a fan of the TV show, "Twilight Zone," especially those episodes wherein bodies and minds were mixed.  I daydreamed of a future when F2M's and M2F's would simply trade brains rather than undergo today's primitive costly painful multi-year efforts to transition.  Part of the angst for Spouse, I'm sure, is that it's such a long process.  You don't know at what point you may get freaked out.  I wonder how Spouse would feel if Lori, in the future, had a one brain-transition operation, and Lori walked out in a female body (rather than an altered male body).  When Lori spoke and Spouse would HEAR her loved one's voice and heart, would she walk away so easily?  How much of Spouse's angst is because the technology of transition is so primitive and it takes so darn long?  I think acceptance for us would be better all around.  Coworkers would see a NORMAL female body (not necessarily beautiful - just average) and HEAR the voice of their coworker.  I can't imagine coworkers not gathering around and giving her a hug of congratulations.  Yes, I too "have a dream."
____________________________________

UMOP - You said, "Only when I was able to simulate having breasts myself did I realize how great it would be to have them for real."  Like I said earlier, I was never into breasts.  Neither as a man or a woman.  They're just fat tissue.  I know men consider them crazily -- there certainly have been enough jokes about that in films.  I haven't discussed it with GG's but I have a feeling that they think like me:  they're just body parts.  I once saw a foreign film called "Claire's Knee" wherein the hero of the tale fantacized how wonderful it would be to touch Claire's knee.  I only bring it up because any body part can be an object of infatuation.  Just don't let that infatuation lead you down a dangerous road of transition because you think it will be soooo wonderful.  After a few months of having them, you'll probably ignore them like me.  A new car is exciting.  An old car is transportation.
____________________________________

KATE - You sound like me, correcting the often assumed presumption that we transition for clothes or acting feminine.  To tell you the truth, as a "postie," I talk and act a heck of a lot like my former male self.  Granted that I was never stereotypically "manly."  But I wasn't and am not effeminate either.  I act the way average women act.  Some TS voice training people note that women often will end their sentences, going up in tone and in a questioning manner, like they're not sure.  My ex pointed out that women news anchors talk in monotones to match their counterparts and it gives them a business-like demeanor.  People take them seriously.  Hearing that, I decided to just alter my pitch up a little and speak the way I speak.  I don't NEED to speak in a stereotypically female manner because body language and tone do wonders. 

There's another difference between myself and a lot of women:  I hate women in stores describing EVERY garment as "cute."  Surely educated women can come up with some other adjective?  But I have my silly moments, too, and feel peace in that people smile rather than look at me strangely.  The "context," as you say, makes my being me gender appropriate.
_____________________________________

JANE - I've always liked your definition of why you wanted to be a woman -- "Because I am."  It's so simple and eloquent.  As to people fighting us "because they have not the least idea what [being in the wrong body] feels like" -- It's probably like all minorities, nobody knows how it feels until they walk in our shoes.  A black jury let football player/actor Simpson free because they knew what it felt like to be racially profiled and picked upon.  White America was stunned...

And many or most in America are stunned about us, too.  Looking at it from their point of view, it makes no sense.

Teri Anne

Quoteby observing women as you grow up, you come to the realization that, inside, that woman acts, talks, emotes more like me.  Why don't I look like her?

Funny you should mention that since that was my earliest realization that something was wrong. I always thought I WAS a girl, just like all other girls, until about age 6 or 7 when a bunch of the kids were having a little "show me your's and I'll show you mine" in the back of the shool yard - that's when I found out none of the other girls had an "outie" - they all had "innies"! I had no idea what that meant at the time and thought puberty would set everything right. It is beyond the comprehension of a child that anything could be so fundamentally  WRONG!

Quote from: Northern Jane on March 14, 2006, 02:59:13 PM
Funny you should mention that since that was my earliest realization that something was wrong. I always thought I WAS a girl, just like all other girls, until about age 6 or 7 when a bunch of the kids were having a little "show me your's and I'll show you mine" in the back of the shool yard...

This reminded me of a locker room incident when I was around 6ish: my mother took me to swimming lessons at the local high school, and afterwards I had to change back into normal clothes in a locker room crowded with boys... and I just could not bring myself to undress in front of them. I actually pulled my pants over on top of my wet trunks and ran out. I never thought I *was* a girl physically, yet it just seemed so fundamentally wrong for them to see me naked somehow.

My wife suggested that perhaps I was just still uncomfortable undressing in front of crowds in general, but I don't think so. I really had no idea about genital differences at that age, but I knew I didn't feel like "one of the boys," so it seemed to breaking a taboo for them to see me like that. It sounds insane, but I think I feared that if they saw me naked, they'd figure out that I *wasn't* really a boy, my little secret would be "exposed." It's all so confusing, lol...

That's an interesting thought Kate.  I felt that way too, but I always assumed everyone felt that way.  I'll have to ponder that some more.

Melissa

Kate and Melissa - Two memories of mine:

In junior high, I was taking a shower in the boy's locker room and was shocked to feel a warm sensation on my leg.  I looked down and a boy was peeing on my leg.  I went to the principal's office to complain but never heard if they did anything about it.  I never mentioned it to my parents.  It still disgusts me to think about it.

In high school, I talked our phys ed teacher into allowing me to do his office work instead of changing clothes in the locker rooms and running around outside with the boys.  He knew me as a brainy one and so accepted my offer.  A few weeks later, I was late for P.E..  The teacher had a rule that those who were late got a swat in the behind with a big wooden paddle (while others looked on).  Seeing me late, the kids began mouthing "Oooooooooo," in expectation that I'd get a swat.  I didn't look in their direction and just kept walking into the office.  I had a legitimate excuse and nothing else happened.  But I still remember that taunt-like, "Oooooooooo."

Needless to say, I hated P.E. and all the macho bully crap.  Now, I hear with that young women in school are becoming more and more rude like the guys.  If things change too much, maybe I'll have to find something else to be.

Teri Anne

I guess the best analogy for me before and after transition is that before transition I always felt like I was wearing a costume that I couldn't remove. People were interacting with the costume, not me. It's a horribly dissociative feeling. Now I feel like they're seeing me for the first time.

One of the other lawyers said to me "I didn't get the whole Dennis/Denise thing at first, but now seeing you, it's obvious that you're much more comfortable as Dennis."

Dennis

Quote from: Teri Anne on March 14, 2006, 04:59:26 PM
  Now, I hear with that young women in school are becoming more and more rude like the guys.  

Perhaps the women are co-opting the male power structure.  If they take the  power then the women force the men to deal with them on equal footing.  Its the same as in a corporate board meeting.  A secretary is treated differently than another women who sits on the board and has voting power.   Its all about real or imagined equality.

Leigh

Quote from: Northern Jane on March 14, 2006, 08:28:37 AM
First, on the 50% suicides: I escaped in 1974 and lost contact with the TS community when I went stealth. Prior to that time I had perhaps a dozen close friends who were TS and attended 3 funerals - that's a 25% mortality rate. There were others who just dropped out of sight and nobody knew what happened to them. Myself and one other girl escaped in 1973/74 and I don't know what happened to those who were left behind.

The figure for the high success rate originated in the early days of  SRS and were based on the number of patients who simply disappeared into the woodwork after SRS. One must remember that SRS was extremely hard to come by in the 1960's and 1970's. For an individual to reach SRS, they had already been through the grist mill and suffered god-knows how much sh!@ and abuse. To reach SRS was an indication that the person was strong, fairly smart, damned determined, and fairly resourceful. If a person had the where-with-all to beat the odds, they had a  pretty good chance at success on the other side.

Spouse: In a great many "primitive" societies, transsexual individuals are accepted and respected members of the community and live in their chosen gender role. They are often highly respected as being "gifted" with special vision and knowledge.

I can not speak for others but for me, a former TS, the need to alter the body was intense and had nothing to do with the rest of the world. Were I to live alone on a remote island, I would have taken an ax and hacked it off myself! I  AM a woman - 32 years post-op have proven that to me - and I always WAS a woman/girl and that is why I hated that deformity so. I lived a dual life for over a decade (my teens) so I had the opportunity to live part of that time the way I felt I should have been from birth but all that did was to intensify my hatred of being deformed. I was never "a man" or "a boy" and I was punished for "acting feminine" but no punishment could stop me from being and feeling what I felt.

My adopted Mom opposed my transition right up to the day I left. I told her I had to be free or die - she said "It would be better you killed yourself than to do this." Since that  day in the spring of 1974 I have live a wondrous and glorious life - a thousand times better than my wildest dreams - and turned out to be a far better person than I had any hope of becoming. I am happy, well adjusted (better than most people in general), productive, and touch people everyday in a good way, and fully integrated into womanhood many years ago. Of the thousands of people I know and who know me, the idea that I was ever anything other than "just another woman" would be inconceivable!

Transition? For me, the difference between Heaven and Hell

My reply to your post will be succinct... "Amen"

Steph

HAZ - As one of the "others" with a vested interest in one of "your people", I would certainly love it if my husband chose not to transition. My apple-cart wouldn't be upset. That's the selfish side of me. I know he will annoy and aggravate anyone he has to so he can get the information he needs to decide what is best for him. If he concludes that transitioning would be the best thing for him, I will support his decision 100%. I love him *at least* that much.

If you start up one of those homes for transitioning TS's or find that one already exists, I'd happily make a donation.
                   
TERI - "...young women in school are becoming more and more rude like the guys.  If things change too much, maybe I'll have to find something else to be."  :o  Are you f*%#ing nuts? Just kidding... Women/girls who are rude and sassy have been around for a looooong time. Perhaps it wasn't apparent to you in your prior male box. People, we must remember that gay, straight, transsexual, whatever... we are all individuals. There are those in the ranks who embarrass the rest. There are rude women, there are nice women. There are tactless women, there are very proper women. There are rude transsexuals, there are nice transsexuals. You at least tolerate "your own kind."

You stated "I hated my appearance in the shower." Again, *appearance*. Like the woman who hates her nose or a hidden, yet offending, mole which MUST be corrected. Either society doesn't like your appearance or you don't like your appearance. The questions I posed were partly rhetorical, just thinking out loud. What if...we were all asexual and featureless but for a single hair on a "male" head and no hair on a "female" head? The MTF TS would pluck the hair and, voila, do-it-yourself GRS! Then that female would immediately blend in and no one would be the wiser. To make a u-turn, simply let the hair grow back.  ;D 

"I sometimes wonder if (1) that island only had one inhabitant, me, and (2) I didn't know what women looked like, would I have wanted to grab that ax?"--very well put. So much of what we feel is driven by what we see.

You also stated "It wasn't based on a desire for breasts (I never have had an interest in them - they're just there)..." Yet you have breast implants? Why? There are many flat-chested women out there. (I was one of them. I didn't like it.) Why have another expensive surgery if breasts don't matter to you? To APPEAR more feminine? So clothes fit better? Just rhetorical questions really.
                   
I admire all of you. I believe it takes immense courage and strength to be who you are, whether you transition or not. I hope that if I pass any of you on the street I wouldn't give you a second glance because...you're one of "us."

Swim trunks... yea, been there did that; chocked it up to shyness.

"your people" ... This is not a you vs them arrangement. I am human, so are you.

P.E. ... I rarely went to that class, if I did I did not participate.

Because...
I started out this life with a determination to be male; I spent 29 years, 11 months in that frame of mind. I fully intended to live all of this life as male. I tried my best. What does it take to compel someone to throw all of that away? For me: Because I could not hide anymore; Because I did not want to; Because I WILL NOT hide anymore.

By the by I've never cared much for what society thinks; My 'male mode' has 10 earrings, long hair and purple nails... I do not fit a society approved demographic.

It does not matter if any one else understands, without a frame of context I really don't expect them to.

http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/wouldbeletter.html

Hi, Spouse.  I'm glad you liked my point that, if I didn't know what women looked like, would I still grab that ax?  What I said might be considered odd for a TS to say but one thing my best friend tells me is that she's "never met someone who tries to be so honestly open" when talking of myself or my feelings.  I'm not trying to win any arguments nor sway you over to the TS way of thinking.  I put out my inner thoughts and if something clicks or doesn't click, so be it.  One of my happiest recent moments was when a TS told me that, because I had related that I had deep regrets in asking my wife to leave during my transition (in my mind, for her own good), this TS saw that she should let her wife make up her own mind.  And, hopefully, they'll stay together.

Yes, I know women can be cruel.  You're right in saying that's nothing new.  My comment about rude young women probably should have had more details -- there was a CBS nightly news story on the other day talking of how young women were becoming, not just rude, but VIOLENT with punching and knifing others in schools.  They cited it as happening more and more often.  In some of my other posts, I've mentioned how, after transitioning, many TS's discover that there really isn't THAT much difference between the genders.  I know I came to feel that way -- that so much of what we consider to be gender is not nature -- it's nurture.  While obviously men and women have many differences, it's funny how many things that society considers "feminine" or "masculine" is PROGRAMMED into the kiddies.  How men and women act in society is, to some extent, how society EXPECTS each of them to act.  Spouse, I can perhaps hear you wondering, if I know this male-female thing may be a bunch of bunk, why transition?  Maybe it comes back to me, as a child, looking up at my mom and realizing I was more like her than men around her (I have 3 brothers).  So why did I look different from her?  Maybe it's a comfort thing.  And inability to relate to men's way of thinking, talking or acting.  When I was together with my ex, I often felt I was playing a role of man of the house.  It sounds silly but it's true.

I know it's a horrible position you're in.  I try to imagine what it'd be like if my ex had transitioned to being a male.  Offhand, the idea disgusts me.  But maybe in time, like I'm suggesting to you, you'll ignore the exterior and find your husband is still alive.  Another thought occurs to me -- you've pointed out how we sometimes bring up appearance and you comment, "Again, appearance."  I wonder if you've considered directing your comment back at yourself?  In other words, if appearance shouldn't be important to us, why should appearance be important to you?  It's an unfair question, I know, because you didn't START this flip of Lori's appearance.  In 1999, in my "coming out" card to several friends I posed the question that "if we are really, in fact, spirits when we die, does it REALLY matter what we look like now?"  While it did generate food for thought, I still empathize with you, Spouse.  I wish I could find the words to make your hurting stop.

Spouse, I think you may have me mixed up with some other TS in regards to my breasts.  I never had breast surgery and don't even wear a padded bra.  I wear B size that is just fine for me.  My best friend has larger breasts and she clued me in, during transition, to how it's a pain in the neck (and back) to have larger breasts.  Because, as I mentioned, I have no interest in breasts (mine or anyone else's), I'm the last person who'd have breast augmentation.  On top of everything else, I hear that surgery can have a painful recovery period.  Noooo thanks!

Thank you for the kind comment, Spouse, at the end of your post, complimenting the many inhabitants of Susan's.  I was wondering if your opinion on anything about TS's has changed over your time here?   You don't need to talk about your relationship issues.  I was just wondering in general whether anything made sense?

Teri Anne

QuoteKnowing I may have to sets up all the fears. Knowing I could never go back to the starting point gives me fears of knowing I have to be right. Coming up with the right decision is causing the churning. Perhaps I should take a mini vacation from myself...lol..right..like that will happen

Hi Lori:

This is an interesting topic.  You know as you said perhaps you should take a vacation from yourself.  This isn't such a lol statement.  Perhaps to determine if this is right for you, you should consider doing the real life test of living/breathing female for a year.  After that is complete I am sure you would probably have all the facts you would need to determine if you should proceed with transitioning.  I am aware that you have previously said your wife will leave if you transition.  Let's not go there again....really IMHO there isn't any other way to decide if this is right for you.  According to all your posts, sounds like you've done a lot of research on the pro's and cons.  Why not set a time line, discuss it with your wife/family.  This lets everyone know where you are coming from.  Tell us what's holding you back from doing the real live test?

Am I being naive?  Believe me I am far from naive with this, but the experience that I do have with all of this is this:  Find out if this is what you want to do, find out what you have to do, do the real live test.  From an SO's point of view, waiting for your spouse to make that decision is just as destructful for them.  Once the decision has been made, you are back in control.  That goes for both spouses.

Gill

Teri, my point about appearance is that I believe it IS important to all of us is one way or another, whether we admit it or not. Some TSs claim the clothes, make-up, hair, etc aren't important to them, yet IF they want to APPEAR female and blend in, some form of superficial transformation is necessary.

Appearance is quite important to me, obviously. If my husband transitions and I stay with HER, how will society see ME? I don't have the guts to say "->-bleeped-<- 'em all." I want a more normal life and to be accepted in society. I want my kids to have the same. I'll love my husband whether he transitions or not. I just can't share a life/home/bed with HER.

To include the report that young women are becoming more violent certainly puts a different spin on things. I stated we tolerate our own kind, but I would hope that we will never learn to tolerate their violence. Geez, are women regressing? Shouldn't we be above that?

Gill, I agree that a real life test, or some form of one, would be very beneficial for Lori. We've talked about it. I believe we finally have a plan in place, steps to take, before getting there. Everything just takes soooo much time.

Quote from: Kimberly on March 14, 2006, 11:25:48 PM
"your people" ... This is not a you vs them arrangement. I am human, so are you.

Kimberly, the "your people" was just a little jab at Haz for lumping "Others" (I assume signifant "others") together.

Teri, you asked if my opinion on anything about TSs has changed. Yes and no. Yes, I have acquired knowledge about transsexualism which has helped me better appreciate what my husband is going through, though I will never really understand it all. I appreciate the opinions and perspectives offered here, though we don't always agree. While my course hasn't changed if my husband becomes Lori, I can honestly wish her well and continue to love her and support her.

Quotethough I will never really understand it all

Sweetie, I lived through it and I don't understand it! All I know is what was (hell) and what is (Heaven).

QuoteSome TSs claim the clothes, make-up, hair, etc aren't important to them, yet IF they want to APPEAR female and blend in, some form of superficial transformation is necessary.

As one who has been "integrated" for 3 decades I agree with you 100% !

Quote from: spouse on March 15, 2006, 02:55:19 PM
Kimberly, the "your people" was just a little jab at Haz for lumping "Others" (I assume signifant "others") together.

From what I read, it didn't sound that way at all.  Besides, everyone here calls the SO's and not "others".  I see the misunderstanding was probably a result of "others" being capitalized.  Is sounds like by "Others", Haz meant "Others who come in contact with the TS" as is first stated.  The truth is, most SO's are not the ones to attempt to guide a TS away by saying the TS doesn't know what is best for themselves.  The most common reaction from SO's is "If you transition, I'll leave".  In my experience, it is parents and siblings that have been the ones to say "I know what's better for you than you know yourself".

Melissa

Quote from: Leigh on March 15, 2006, 12:21:20 AM
http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/wouldbeletter.html

Well that is disconcerting. So is this;

http://www.sfbg.com/40/24/cover_trans.html

And to think that is the safest city to be in for a transgendered person!!

Quote from: Lori on March 16, 2006, 07:35:16 AM
Well that is disconcerting. So is this;
...

I did not think so...

Perhaps this is of value, perhaps not.

Quote1. Educating ...

Already planed on that.

Quote2. You will be discriminated against. ...

So, it's an inevitibility. Besides, it's nice when the idiots identify themselves.
(I've never been normal; this is nothing new)

Quote3. Passing ...

I have no desire to live in a closet thank you very much. If people can deal with me that is great, if not that is fine.

Quote4. You may have difficulty finding employment. ...

I am self employed for a reason.

Quote5. If you found cross-dressing erotic before transition, ...

Erotic? what is that? Sorry, I'm pretty much sexually dead.

Quote6. You won't ever have a normal body of a member of the opposite sex.

Yea, that bites. Oh well, it is better than having a malformed body with the wrong hormones.

Quote7. There's no guarantee that your body dysphoria will ever go away entirely.

I know it won't. To bad so sad. Getting rid of parts I don't like is one brick in a wall;

Quote8. If you do get surgery, it may be less than ideal. It will hurt. It will certainly cost a lot.

Yea, but temporary stuff by and large.
It IS stupid to throw away a perfectly functioning body but ^*shrug* a broken one is still better than what was.

Quote9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before ...

Naked? Are you kidding me? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Quote10. Your dating pool will shrink drastically. ...

Gee, from none to none. Actually I expect it to go UP. ... and if it doesn't so what has changed? I'll die an old maid.

Quote11. You may lose your family. ...

Only thing that bothered me; I haven't, lost any I can not live without.
Yea, my brother might freak; Then again I may never hear from him again anyway...

Quote12. You may lose many or even all of your friends. ...

Friends? I have some? ... Sorry I didn't call anyone friend until I came here.

Quote13. You may lose your children. ...

Nope, some slight painful advantage to being single 28 years.

Quote14. You may lose your religious community. ...

I am NOT a sheep.

Quote15. People will ask you rude questions about your genitalia.....for the rest of your life. ...

Uh, yea so? As I said above about idiots, it's nice when they identify themselves.

Quote16. Statistically, you will be much more likely to be assaulted and/or killed by hatemongers. ...

Yea, this one bites no getting around it; but then life has never been safe so what else is new?

Quote17. If you do go to jail, you have a higher likelihood of being killed while in prison. ...

That is presuming I live to get to jail, and that I was a bad girl to go there in the first place.

Quote18. You will have trouble finding medical care. Every doctor must be educated, and many will turn you away on the grounds of being transsexual. ...

This is a bit troubling, but it does not change a damn thing.
I don't mind educating.
Any who would turn me away, well I have no desire to deal with bigots anyway so it's nice that they identified themselves too...

Quote19. Being on hormones usually means being dependent on a substance ...

Yep this one stinks, no getting around that; However it does not change a damn thing either.

Quote20. There are certain parts of the globe that you can absolutely never visit ...

I am a hermit; I want to be left alone; If I want to see the world it will be from the deck of my ship.


Have you noticed that the things I don't like don't matter?

Ok, let me have a go at it...

Quote
1. Educating ...

No Problem.  Once I get this down, it will work to my advantage.

Quote
2. You will be discriminated against. ...

Yeah.  More motivation to pass.  Also, in the area I live in, there are now laws against this.  It allows me to at least seek legal recourse if this happens.  I know it doesn't mean much, but it could help.  And if I win, I could use the money.

Quote
3. Passing ...

There are many options available that can help one pass including FFS, voice training, breast augs, and mannerisms can be learned.

Quote
4. You may have difficulty finding employment. ...

Unfortunately, this is a big one.  However, I am a very skilled person, so I just need to find a company that doesn't discriminate and I have a fairly good chance.  Also, who wants to work for a company that discriminates in the first place?

Quote
5. If you found cross-dressing erotic before transition, ...

Nope.  Just they're clothes.

Quote
6. You won't ever have a normal body of a member of the opposite sex.

Unfortunately true.  Can't do much about that.  However, it will be a lot closer than before transition.

Quote
7. There's no guarantee that your body dysphoria will ever go away entirely.

I know, but at least I will have tried.

Quote
8. If you do get surgery, it may be less than ideal. It will hurt. It will certainly cost a lot.

One can hope for the best though.  Choosing a good surgeon and lots of research can help minimize this.  Yes it will cost a lot, but then again, doesn't anything worthwhile in life?

Quote
9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before ...

Not particularly.

Quote
10. Your dating pool will shrink drastically. ...

True.  But how many single people are there in the world again?

Quote
11. You may lose your family. ...

Everyone knows.  My parents and siblings aren't happy with it, but they still accept me as family.  If me and my wife decide to go our own separate ways, I will look at it as beginning a new adventure.

Quote
12. You may lose many or even all of your friends. ...

Didn't have many to begin with.  Kept the ones I had and in fact made more friends than before, so I have already come out ahead.

Quote
13. You may lose your children. ...

This won't happen.  My wife isn't that kind of person.

Quote
14. You may lose your religious community. ...

Been there.  Done that.  I'll just find a new church.  Besides, going to church is not a requirement to be saved in the christian religion.  You just need to accept Christ as your savior.

Quote
15. People will ask you rude questions about your genitalia.....for the rest of your life. ...

Whether you answer them or not is your own choice.

Quote
16. Statistically, you will be much more likely to be assaulted and/or killed by hatemongers. ...

I'm aware of this.  I just exercise extra caution.  If something happens, then it was meant to be.  That doesn't man I can't prepare myself though.

Quote
17. If you do go to jail, you have a higher likelihood of being killed while in prison. ...

As Kimberly said, only if the can get me there alive.  This is also a good reason to be a law-abiding citizen.

Quote
18. You will have trouble finding medical care. Every doctor must be educated, and many will turn you away on the grounds of being transsexual. ...

I know enough doctors that are accepting of transsexuals, that this isn't a problem.

Quote
19. Being on hormones usually means being dependent on a substance ...

There are many people who are dependant on medications.  This is nothing new.

Quote
20. There are certain parts of the globe that you can absolutely never visit ...

Any place that transsexuals are not allowed, I wouldn't be visiting anyways.

So, although they are annoyances, I am prepared to deal with any that might bother me.  I have heard there are 2 kinds of people in this world.  Those who see the problems and those who see the solutions.  Think about that.

Melissa

I'll go over it too. :)

#1: Actually, I found myself happily explaining this to friends early on. Maybe it was just the need to talk about it, and I suppose that might grow old after the umpteenth time.

#2: Bummer. But hey, the way I look and act now when I'm not presenting as female, I'd probably be subject to similar forms of bigotry. No way am I getting back into repressing myself under that phony male exterior.

#3: Assumptions about gender, not about me. As for passing, yeah it's a strain sometimes. It isn't easy to make a bass voice sound female, but somehow I manage most of the time.

#4: I did have a job that would have been perfect, at least as far as my employer. With the job I'm at now, I can only hope that I've made as good an impression as they tell me I have...

#5: Nope - I never found dressing as a male to be erotic and I'll be ever so glad to never have to do so anymore.  :P ;D

#6: As long as it's not a hairy cylindrical male body, sign me up!

#7: Even just diminishing the dysphoria is better than doing nothing.

#8: Sure, there are risks involved, but doing nothing will mean keeping something I can't use.

#9: Nope, I'll keep my clothes on thank you.

#10: So the pool will shrink - but not disappear completely. Shouldn't be much need for a long explanation beyond "treat me as you would any other woman."

As an aside, I wonder why it is harder for FTMs? :o Personally, I would have expected it be the other way around.

#11: Parents are okay with it. Actually my biggest concern among family is my sister. NO idea at all how she'd take it, and we never did get to be as close growing up as I would have liked.  :(

#12: Oddly enough, I've only had problems with one friend after telling them, and it was out of his insistence that I was being fake by doing this (yeah right  ::) ). The rest have been understanding.

#13: Don't have any, don't want any.

#14: Atheist here - although I happen to know of a supporive church in my area.

#15: My answer: "Why do you want to know?"

#16: It stinks that this is the case, but it's not worth spending my life in a shell out of fear.

#17: Shouldn't happen, but I've seen good people get mixed up in bad situations. See #16.

#18: See #16.

#19: Just means keeping enough of a cushion in the bank account.

#20: Probably places I was never planning to go anyway.

Melissa, I liked your thinking about 2 kinds of people in the world:  "Those who see the problems and those who see the solutions."  It reminds me of Ted Kennedy talking about Bobby, "Some people see things as they are and ask why.  He looked at things and asked, "Why not?"  Both are about DOING something rather than just talking about it.

Melissa and Kimberly were, in my opinion, very level headed, smart, clever and humorous with their answers!  What great examples of smart new women!  I particularly liked how Kimberly faces discrimination:  "It's nice when the idiots identify themselves."  I wish I'd read this way of looking at things when I was transitioning.  Often, as I've mentioned, I used the word "Control" as a sort of mantra.  But this is just as affective, if not more.  And the echo of Kimberly's above "nice when idiots identify themselves" philosophy is the great standard: "Have you noticed that the things I don't like don't matter?" 

Both Melissa and Kimberly are going to live to very old ages.  Nothing throws or upsets you'all!

Spouse, you mentioned that "some form of superficial transformation is necessary."  Yes, society does like its clues.  I just prefer subtle ones.  It's funny.  When I was transitioning, I had a great fear of someone calling me a fake.  I guess I'd lived somewhat of a lie my whole life by keeping my feminine soul inside.  Then, in transitioning, I had to put on a wig to pass.  More fakery.  And yet, I look to GG's and when I hear them and they're saying, "Oh, it's sooo feminine!" -- It's usually clothing and/or makeup they're talking about, not a woman's body. 

The architect Frank Lloyd Wright, when he designed places, tried to avoid what he called, "applied ornamentation."  Instead of hanging pictures on a wall as most people do, he'd integrate the art into the building.  In transitioning, I likewise hated the "applied ornamentation" aspect and tried, whenever I could, to integrate a stereotypical woman's look INTO my body rather than applying it.  So, that meant, getting rid of the wig when transplants negated a need, getting rid of lipstick and eyeliner (I had "permanent" makeup put on in an almost tatoo-like process (without any buzzing instrument).  I know, technically, it IS still "applied ornamentation" but, to me, it's more integral.  It's all silly but was my way of combating my initial transition nervousness of society saying I was a fake.

Now, I'm far more confident and, as the "permanent" makeup fades I don't worry about it.  There still seem to be enough clues for people who meet me - even when dressed in non-gender jogging outfits - for people to see the me inside.  And, if they don't well, I'll take up that Kimberly philosophy, "it's nice when the idiots identify themselves."

Teri Anne

1.  This one is easy.  Melissa ask your Dr. about it.  I was born left handed but society tried to make me right handed--didn't take.

2.  P. T. Barnum:  You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time,  I am totally so far out of the closet that even the ones with my clothes have no doors.  If someone has a prob with me its theirs to own.  I have neither the time, desire or energy to worry about it.

3.  I'm me.  If I pass ok--if not so what?

4.  I'm lucky, my work history goes back to 1985 under my name.

5. If you found cross-dressing erotic before transition,  About as erotic as sticking a fork in my eye. Its just doing the same thing day after day, no difference than before cept I like me now.

6.  Better than the alternative.

7.  you may still get attacks of dysphoria, especially when you try to have sex.
   Not so you would notice and its not try, I can leave that word out


8.  See #6

9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before   Not a chance in hell.  Now its common place.

10.  This only applies if the sex does not match the gender.  Fortunatlely mine does.

11.  Their loss, my gain.  They lost family, I gained the knowledge that they really were not.

12.  See #11

13.  We are closer emotionally than ever and I have no desire to raise another one.  I did it all alone for almost 17 years.

14.  Does not apply.

15. Are you planning on sleeping with me? If you're not why do you need to know?

16.  You pays your money you take your chances.  I would have been more likely to injure myself without surgery than having someone do it afterward.

17.  I'm a lesbian.  What exactly is the downside to being with all women?   

18.  My current Dr. has no problems and she is not connected with the trans community.


19.  So is every other woman my age.


20.  So I'm not going to use my passport to go to the Middle East, no loss there

9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before   Not a chance in hell.  Now its common place.


And that, Leigh, makes me jealous. I will never, even if I have bottom surgery, pass in a group of strangers naked.

But as for the rest of it. I could not have imagined how beneficial transition would be to me. I thought I'd lose everything, job, spouse, family, opportunities, and I just figured I'd make the best of what came. What did come was increased respect, career advantage, comfort in my own body that I could not have imagined, and a very contented, happy life.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on March 17, 2006, 02:42:56 AM
I could not have imagined how beneficial transition would be to me. I thought I'd lose everything, job, spouse, family, opportunities, and I just figured I'd make the best of what came. What did come was increased respect, career advantage, comfort in my own body that I could not have imagined, and a very contented, happy life.

OK my turn to be jealous.  :D

Seriously though, it's kind of similar to the cruel irony that the women get the physiological advantage and the men more often get the aesthetic advantage.  :-\

Quote from: Dennis on March 17, 2006, 02:42:56 AM
I will never, even if I have bottom surgery, pass in a group of strangers naked.

I know Dennis and for whats its worth I think it SUX.  Its just not right that you/men can present so well and then the surgery falls short of what it could be.  I do know that the results are getting better just as ours did over the years.  I think part of the reason is supply and demand.  The % of men and women are skewed to our side so we do get more doctors working for us.  That and the fact that its easier to make something out of something  rather than making it out of basically little material.

I win the lottery and I'll fund the reasearch.

Leigh

Quote2.  P. T. Barnum:  You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time,

Thought that was Abe Lincoln except please instead of fool.

Cassie

Quote from: Cassandra Anna Hefton on March 18, 2006, 12:54:31 AM
Thought that was Abe Lincoln except please instead of fool.

In a now famous quote, President Abraham Lincoln was said to have commented to a visitor to the White House in 1865: "If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

ok so I shot myself in the foot.  P T Barnum was the one about the sucker born every minute

Hmm, that Abe was pretty smart.  And it probably took a lot of grit to stick with the Civil War that killed such a horrific amount of young men.  I see the photos and am stunned.  It's unimaginable.

In our war, called transition, we have lost so many over the years.  Gwen in San Francisco (founder of the old TS meeting place, "Gazebo"), has an online web list of remembrance of TS's that have passed on.  I wonder if, at some point, someone will erect a monument to OUR war dead.

Teri Anne

Quote from: spouse on March 14, 2006, 10:38:19 PM

HAZ - As one of the "others" with a vested interest in one of "your people", I would certainly love it if my husband chose not to transition. My apple-cart wouldn't be upset. That's the selfish side of me. I know he will annoy and aggravate anyone he has to so he can get the information he needs to decide what is best for him. If he concludes that transitioning would be the best thing for him, I will support his decision 100%. I love him *at least* that much.

If you start up one of those homes for transitioning TS's or find that one already exists, I'd happily make a donation.

"Your People" -- it certainly is a loaded word, isn't it?  But I went first with "Others", trying to come up with something to describe with an economy those people who have what I termed a compulsion to intervene with the transitioner and stop them from transitioning.  Someone stating "I don't think what you're doing is such a good idea," two or three times is not a compulsion, someone who has stated opposition to the transitioner transitioning but will otherwise not interfere (and may even support in some small way) is not compulsion.  What I meant by compulsion is those persons who will never accept that the transitioner is transitioning -- in a sports metaphor, the game is never over.  Therefore, you don't fit the category (as you said in a later post you will support your TS spouse.  But I'm sure you have met some people who fit the Others category I defined.)

Spouse, my apologies for my rather 'salty' posting.  I admit to using your posting as a springboard to my diatribe, but it wasn't aimed specifically at you, although, obviously, I didn't make that clear, for which I apologise to you.  But it was a topic I wanted to bring somewhat into focus. 

I'll throw this in here, not aimed at anyone in particular... When being harangued about something by someone, to the point I feel the harangue-er is not being rational about the subject, I ask, "Is this for my good?  Or for yours?"  Used properly, this question quickly promotes rational debate. 

Spouse, it's okay to be selfish.  If both you and your TS SO are selfish and allow the other to be selfish, it may bring the issues into clearer focus and allow you both to work towards a mutually agreeable resolution.  The trick is there is NO rational basis to transition.  But the feeling of wanting to never goes away.  So you have to rationally discuss an irrational compulsion.  But it can be done!

The Home for Untransitioned Transsexuals idea I got from an editorial on the abortion debate.  It described how up until the '50s girls who got pregnant out of wedlock had to go 'stay with relatives' for about 9 months and then, after birthing and giving the child up for adoption, never to see it again, had to return to their previous lives (if they could, if the secret stayed secret, if their parents didn't throw them out as 'whores',) and live the rest of their lives with that chunk torn out of their being.  But the idea of going through the bumpy middle part of transition out of sight of the malevolent-curious is quite appealing!

Karen (Haz)