Susan's Place Transgender Resources

'Any transgender, on plain reading of statute, could obtain entry to female restroom'

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=60012
02/02/2008

A war of words has erupted in Montgomery County, Md., where a citizens group is nearing the number of signatures needed to force a new law granting special protections to those with "gender identity" issues to a vote of the people.

the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 06:44:24 AM
the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >:D

many public places here in the US only have two restroom choices.... I'd gladly use single or neutral if it was available... but it ain't... and I gotta go somewhere  :P

y2g

every place pretty much HAS to have a disabled/family restroom with changing facilities stuff... thats for familys, disabled, other am neutral enough?....

No offense to anyone, but i feel as uncomfortable sharing the ladies room with an an androgyne, as i do with a man.
neither are women.
R >:D

Such a specious bunch of bullshyte from the attorney. I imagine a lawsuit over a bathroom would be moot from the get-go. Can you imagine 'holding' it long enough to get through court?!!! *giggle*

In all the toilets I have had to use I have yet to see either a male or a readily-identifiable TS/TG in one of them. It just doesn't seem to occur.

The child-care worker provision is just plain BS as well. I doubt there are any 'facility' child-care orgs that do NOT have background checks done on their employees. And the tenor of the atty's reasoning is that anyone who is moving toward a 'sex-change' or who is dressing in 'gender-variant' ways is, perforce, a pervert.

These people are, as normal, appealing to base fear, agents provocateurs and know-nothing 'reasoning' to have their own prejudices and hatreds have the force of law.

And I think that women and men need to understand one thing very well: they will NOT be satisfied with discovering simply 'cross-dressers.' They will make attempts to find us all out if possible. I am beginning to sniff the smoke of 'burning pyres' and 'witch hunts' in these folks.

In many ways this resembles the McCarthy Era where people found 'communists' under every bed and the early civil rights movement when some rather 'lesson' lynchings were performed.

N~ 

there will be a Night of broken glass before we are finally accepted in mass sympathy after god only knows what will happen is done and finished.
R >:D

Goddess! I so hate it when I think you are right!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

But, I wonder exactly that. And I am starting to have this image of many WBTs as we are dragged into the public square screaming: "But we are like you!!" as they tie us to a stake and light the fire. (Okay, a bit dramatic, I suppose.) But the kernel I think is right.

So many of us want to 'think' we are different and ignore the fact that this lot hate us all and are frightened by us all. Perhaps fear more the WBTs and the MBTs than anyone else, simply because they CANNOT tell the difference without paperwork and a gene-analysis.

I am deciding more and more that to remain separate and confrontational with one another is NOT the way to go for the good of any of us.

Nichole 

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 02, 2008, 09:20:10 AM
And I am starting to have this image of many WBTs as we are dragged into the public square screaming: "But we are like you!!" as they tie us to a stake and light the fire. (Okay, a bit dramatic, I suppose.) But the kernel I think is right.

Who knows what it'll be like in 20 years in a world where radical Islam and fundamentalist Christianity are the two fastest growing religions and everybody and his dog can buy a Russian nuke...

Quote
So many of us want to 'think' we are different and ignore the fact that this lot hate us all and are frightened by us all. Perhaps fear more the WBTs and the MBTs than anyone else, simply because they CANNOT tell the difference without paperwork and a gene-analysis.

I am deciding more and more that to remain separate and confrontational with one another is NOT the way to go for the good of any of us.

Absolutely. Even if we are all different in every way - transsexual, genderqueer, crossdresser, whatever, we get painted with the same brush. We have common cause - our right to simply be, and not be judged by that, but by our actions and who we are. If we can't put aside our differences and insecurities about each other, we are all screwed...

I've spent billions of hours in Montgomery Co MD, and have not yet seen anyone in a ladies room that did not actually belong there.  Unless they are they best CD around.  Even then, if they're a CD, they hafta go somewhere, and if they went into the men's, they might get the crap beat out of them instead of , well, you know. And no, there are very few gender-neutral facilities throughout the state, not that I care personally anymore.
I don't get into M.Co frequently now, but when I do, there doesn't seem to be a special scrutiny of us all at the wash basin, just the usual smiles, or chit chat.

Bev
Just another lady

I doubt that there will be any sort of gay or trans Kristallnacht in the U.S. for several reasons, but mostly the Second Amendment, coupled with a broad willingness to use it.  What is happening is a gradual coming apart into different areas that can scarcely recognize the other - and increasingly can't speak to each other.  The red/blue split, which is also an educational split, and income split, a economic split, a cultural divide, a social gap, an urban/rural deal, and a coastal/interior problem is just going to grow.

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 02, 2008, 09:20:10 AM
I am deciding more and more that to remain separate and confrontational with one another is NOT the way to go for the good of any of us.

To paraphrase a quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin;

"We must hang together...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately."

My reason for speaking at the Real ID Town Hall was my suspicion that Real ID could, and thus most assuredly would be used as a tool to 'smoke us out'.

I feel these shrill, energetic attacks against anything that would codify equal civil rights for transgenders (the most icky of the homosexuals) are the start of their attempt to 'sundown' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town) us from their godly towns.

Claiming HBC or WBT won't deter them one iota once they vector your 'true, god-given sex'.

And I suspect that they would want the post-ops amongst us to have to use the room  appropriate to our birth sex, thus outing us, shaming us and putting us in danger of physical violence all at once.

No, we MUST hang together, and do what it takes to hang with as many of the Gays and Lesbians as possible.  It'll probably mostly be the genderqueer, as that's what we have in common.

Karen

P.S., It just occurred to me, I bet the straight-passing gays and lesbians, such as Barney Frank/John Aravosis/Chris Crain will at some point ally with HBS/WBT women (at least, the most passable of them.)

I always thought they wanted to go back to a time before bathrooms - or at least indoor plumbing.  Forward into the past and all that.

Quote from: tekla on February 02, 2008, 01:30:01 PM
I always thought they wanted to go back to a time before bathrooms - or at least indoor plumbing.  Forward into the past and all that.

Hmmmm, at least if we go back to outhouses, they could be considered unisex/single stall and they won't have to worry about ->-bleeped-<-s invading their outhouses  >:D

y2g

Quote from: tekla on February 02, 2008, 01:10:05 PMWhat is happening is a gradual coming apart into different areas that can scarcely recognize the other - and increasingly can't speak to each other.  The red/blue split, which is also an educational split, and income split, a economic split, a cultural divide, a social gap, an urban/rural deal, and a coastal/interior problem is just going to grow.

Does it look something like the below?  From The Nine Nations of North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America), by Joel Garreau.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the above splits, as well as the support/hate LGBT split, can be generally mapped to the boundaries on that map.

Karen

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F3%2F35%2F9nations.png&hash=1fc561619d225ab0443e384371b7fdb5671558e0)

I find nothing particularly wrong with the WBTs, John Aravosis, Joe Solomoneses. What they want is what we all want. Yep, even tekla.

We'd like nothing more than to have our words taken seriously occasionally. Okay, tekla prolly wants to be global emperor *giggle* .. but otherwise they want acceptance that they are real and important, at least to someone.

Don't we all want that, at least for ourselves?

The problem is that we go looking for other people to blame for why we aren't taken seriously. And the more it happens the more seriously troubled we get. I mean go read some of the stuff Ms. Robins goes on about in her comments on blogs. Is that anyway to spend a day when you have 'a full and happy life?'

No. Probably no Kristallnacht and probably no 'public burnings' either. Our technologies, like our bathrooms, are much more sophisticated these days. Better ways and less noticeable to get rid of what we fear.

Why shouldn't people want to 'woodwork?' I imagine few of us really have any desire at all to be any more 'open' than we are about right this second. What woman wants to go through her life with an asterisk by her name or being called 'sir' etc? What man wants to go through life asterisked and being sent to the ladies?

And those who don't want any part of the binary -- what does it hurt to grant them the status of 'non-binary human beings' with all rights, privileges and respect that come with simply being human?

Women blasted the crap outta each other in the 70s and 80s due to the socio-economic differences in what feminism was all about and what the goals of it were. And I am thinking that's exactly where we are going these days with all the fuss about pre-post-non, etc. We are honing distinction to the point that we become little lonely interest groups of one.

That ain't no way to win what hasn't been won yet, nor to protect anyone who might be outted as any different from what she is supposed to be in any way.

And no amount of sarcastic humor, personal attacks, and denigration of another is going to change one very salient fact: they hate us all. And they aren't concerned whether or not you have a 'neo-vagina' or an inverted penis or a 'non-vagina' or an extruded penis.

It's 'against god' whatever it is and if you're thinking about it your just as dangerous as those who've done it. The Phelps group has already placed all of us in hell in their minds anyhow regardless of op status or intention, and will probably be happy to help us to travel into what they think is the real one as well..

And a cogent analysis of what will happen and how may look good, but what to do about what the analysis points out? More of the same?     

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 02, 2008, 01:49:53 PM
I find nothing particularly wrong with the WBTs, John Aravosis, Joe Solomoneses. What they want is what we all want.

I want what they want -- that is, to be treated the same as everyone else even if it is found out I'm not heterosexual or not presenting the same gender as my birth-sex.

I don't out myself every time I buy a quart of milk and a tank of gas at the convenience store.  In fact, with most transactions I either pass just fine or the other person doesn't make an issue of it if they do read me.

Sometimes I have to out myself, like for medical stuff or legal reasons.

As for advocacy, I only out myself when I feel there's a chance that it will do some good and make a difference.

However I do have a problem with the examples named above and others like them because they have either advocated or acted upon dividing themselves off from the "T" and sacrificing the "T" to get their 'rights'.

And it's that willingness to sacrifice others to get your desire that I'm against.

Karen (written as just another opinion from just another member of Susans)

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 02, 2008, 01:49:53 PM
And no amount of sarcastic humor, personal attacks, and denigration of another is going to change one very salient fact: they hate us all.

Yep. All sinners.

To come back to the bathroom question: There was a time when black people had to use seperate bathrooms as well, couldn't get on the same bus as a white person, didn't have the right to vote - Hell, I grew up in a place like that, and I'm not 30 yet!

Equal rights has to mean equal for all. It took Nelson Mandela going to jail, school-children getting gunned down by policemen, border wars and terrorism, but racism is gone - it might still exist in many hearts, but as an institution it's gone, and in South Africa today it's a criminal offence to discriminate on that or any other basis.

We are going to have to fight for that same kind of acceptance, and the only way to do that is together.

You know, we're all sinners going to hell, but then, in the eighties black people were "Die Swart Gevaar" - from afrikaans, "The Black Menace". These days white South Africans look back on that propaganda and wonder how they could ever fall for it. At the end of the day, the same thing is happening to us. Religious extremists, ultra conservatives and the like paint us as this huge evil, and in the absence of an opposing story, people are going to fall for it. We have to change that, and we're only going to do that by being visible, becoming familiar and thus becoming safe.

Karen, as another member of Susan's I seem to live my life like you do as well.

And I do see what they do: get my own and toss you over the side if need be to save my own ass. Like the Billy Zane character in Titanic, hold the child to get in the boat and then qucik give it to someone else to hold onto.

Yet, when I read them I also cannot help but feel their humanity as well. I can feel their fear and their lack of esteem for who they are, if they even know. I suspect the loud and eager sacrifice of everyone else indicates a very large blockage in the self-efficacy department.

Simone, maybe this is why the why in South Africa. Why English Africans, Afrikaaner Africans and Bantu Africans have discovered that not killing one another and hating one another might provide a bit of hope for all. Maybe the way to end the killing is to stop killing one another. Novel notion, no?

Our kultur seems to have a preference for 'human sacrifice.' Its just too easy in USA, seems to me, for any of us to demonize who ever seems to be 'other.' 

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 02, 2008, 03:47:39 PM
Simone, maybe this is why the why in South Africa. Why English Africans, Afrikaaner Africans and Bantu Africans have discovered that not killing one another and hating one another might provide a bit of hope for all. Maybe the way to end the killing is to stop killing one another. Novel notion, no?

Isn't it just. I just feel so sad that it took South Africa, like 300 years to realise that. Hopefully we've learned from that past though - we do have a constitution that includes the rights of the transgendered, amongst everything else (though I don't know if the writers of said constitution were actually fully considering the implications of what they meant when they said "no discrimination on any basis" ;) ). Granted it's still a struggle to get it implemented in the real world, but hopefully we're on the right track.

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 02, 2008, 03:47:39 PMAnd I do see what they do: get my own and toss you over the side if need be to save my own ass. Like the Billy Zane character in Titanic, hold the child to get in the boat and then quickly give it to someone else to hold onto.

Yet, when I read them I also cannot help but feel their humanity as well. I can feel their fear and their lack of esteem for who they are, if they even know. I suspect the loud and eager sacrifice of everyone else indicates a very large blockage in the self-efficacy department.

An apt metaphor, that.  I hope some day I can use it to good effect!

I agree they have humanity.  My issue is with the actions they take, or the arguments they make, to promote themselves at the expense of others.

Gosh, this has been an exhilarating topic;

Karen

Quote from: tekla on February 02, 2008, 01:10:05 PM
I doubt that there will be any sort of gay or trans Kristallnacht in the U.S. for several reasons, but mostly the Second Amendment, coupled with a broad willingness to use it.  What is happening is a gradual coming apart into different areas that can scarcely recognize the other - and increasingly can't speak to each other.  The red/blue split, which is also an educational split, and income split, a economic split, a cultural divide, a social gap, an urban/rural deal, and a coastal/interior problem is just going to grow.

so ->-bleeped-<-s with guns out gun rednecks and haters with guns? give me a break, your gun obsessed Tekla...


There will be something of the sort, in the US, most likely, as its so far the most intollerant place. There will be a watershed.... mark my words.
there will come a point where integration somehow offends society, and i wouldnt be suprised if the 1930s style markines happened. transpeople MUST have a T on thier forehead lol ><
Sometimes things go back before forewards.

Nichole_W: 'mbt' 'wbt' <-- sorry, i dont listen to rap music....?
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 10:38:02 PM

Nichole_W: 'mbt' 'wbt' <-- sorry, i dont listen to rap music....?
R >:D

'men born transsexual' and 'women born transsexual' -- newish political jargon that's been around for a few years. Response to 'womyn born womyn'.

You're right about the precarious and somewhat silly thought that ->-bleeped-<-s with guns are gonna maintain themselves against a goodly sized town in Wyoming, like Casper. *smile*

The 'out-gun' is absolutely about as delusional as anyone's going to get. Altho its not unusual to see that sorta talk from minority members who live in an enclave that has a very large number of minority members. Its a common human trait. We extrapolate our own tiny slice of it to the world at large. Generally we see 'more of us' than there are.


But, overall, Karen is right, the topic has been exhilarating. Try not to spoil it, sweetie!!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Nichole

It seems to me that the assumption underlying the "men in bathrooms" fear tactic is the one we need to fight against.  The radical right wingers maintain that we are not who we say we are, they maintain that we cannot be female in male bodies or male in female bodies.  This is the untrue assumption that they want everyone to swallow.  Julia Serano calls this oppositional sexism.  Others might call it essentialism, the idea that we are wholly and unchangeably defined by our biology.

If we can destroy the cultural belief in this assumption then the whole strategy of fear is easily vanquished.  It won't be "men" in bathrooms anymore (ever notice how the FtM population is always ignored in these propaganda tactics?).

Our access to the medical, social and political rights that others enjoy seems to hinge on this one important fact, that we are born with bodies that do not match our psyches.  This covers all of the transgendered umbrella, even those who reject that term.  I think we need to push the point that we are not "men in ladies' rooms" but women in our own right no matter what our biology was before.

Hugs & Smiles
Emelye

PS:  Once again, I feel the need to make this disclaimer:  I am all for protecting people's right to public accommodation based on their identity.  I do not condone offensive and disturbing behavior within these public accommodations by anyone, especially restrooms and changing areas.  I define offensive behavior as that behavior which offends the majority of persons who witness it.  But then again, behavior like this is usually already illegal, isn't it?

Huh, CD's in general don't believe their anything but men.
So, in their case at least. Men in the women's restroom
is right no matter how you look at it.

I think instead of putting everyone under an umbrella
that I don't feel fits and falling on our face,
it would be better to create an adaptative
response to most people's concerns.

Reducing everyone who's not ready to accept every T
including every CD in a women's restroom as a bigot
is something that is a non starter as an argument
basis (because some of these are plainly men).

I think changing the issue into, insuring everyone
has access to a restroom (something even
nutters can't disagree on) and finding a solution
to this is a better tack. The solution is increasing
the availability of family rooms and gender neutral
restrooms. This solution actually respects
everyone's concerns without being a zero sum game;
everyone gains.

Family rooms in particular is
something that could get a lot of support since
having men accompany their daughters in
women's room is not seen as good and
having the daughter go into the men's room
is not ideal either.

In montreal, many places now have one room
with a corridor access bathroom with sink,
a changing board. Its gender neutral,
a family room and also it makes
handicaped access much easier. Everyone wins.

How I handle the bathroom issue is that I go before I head out. If I have to use the bathroom I'll use which ever is appropriate and availble. Most places i have gone to dressed have had single bathrooms.

Gennee  

How hard would it be for our goverment to make something where you get your therapist to write a letter stating that you are indeed Transexual and you have already started RLT or some other prerequisite....  You mail it off, they call the therapist plus they have to be in some directory they have createtd???

then you get a little card in the mail saying you have been recgonized to use the womans or mens restroom.

then you have legal rights allowing you to use those rooms.??? And only if a therapist says so, on top of that I do not think that once one applies for the recgonition they should be allowed to use the biological restroom, its like a switch not a thing so you can choose what room to use.

I mean this wouldnt take millions and millions of dollars, this could be done for the price of one guys salary, plus the cost to rent a gov office, plus cost of cards, plus cost of paperwork, postage, OH and the intial legal fees to get it written, drafted, passed, ect...

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 06:44:24 AM
the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >:D

Wow... I'm going to be crossing my legs for a LONG ass time then because I almost NEVER see "neutral" bathrooms.... in say restaurants, stores, work places etc..  So until there is a "neutral bathroom" everywhere, deal with it.

Why do you feel uncomfortable with ME using YOUR bathroom anyway?

Quote from: Alison on February 03, 2008, 06:03:44 PM

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 06:44:24 AM
the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >:D

Wow... I'm going to be crossing my legs for a LONG ass time then because I almost NEVER see "neutral" bathrooms.... in say restaurants, stores, work places etc..  So until there is a "neutral bathroom" everywhere, deal with it.

Why do you feel uncomfortable with ME using YOUR bathroom anyway?

Because the fact that you have thought about the nature of gender and don't consider yourself covered by a limiting binary system surely overrides the fact that you have a UTERUS and vagina rather than a penis.  A self diagnosed m2f surely has more right than you to use the women's loos!

Well, Alison, there are plenty of gender neutral, family room, handicaped
accessible, restrooms around here. Its not some kind of pipe dream.

What I hear from the restroom brigade is no respect for the
GG's feeling and thus why should they respect you!

As I said, which nobody read obviously, is that a middle ground
exists that can respond to everybody's needs. That's the only
one that realistically will allow all CD's and really ambiguous
gendered people or those who think gender means crap
total access and respect the majority
gosh darned binary people who feel gender means something.

um, your a so alison? where did i even START to beef on you?
IF someone doesnt see themselves as male or female, dont use those rooms... a lot of places have unisex loos... ie, a stall with a wash basin etc....
Alison, do you idnetify as other than female? if so, use what you find apropriate, gender deconstruction isnt some excuse to use any bloody room you like when you feel like a change....

and andra: firstly, im not self diagnoised, OR technically m2f transsexual, so maybe back off?
R >:D

I am a SO, Andra is my partner as well as JC...

I am also a non binary identifying person.  I have a female body but I am -not- female.  Rachael so eloquently said that "women's facilities are for women only".. And frankly this puts me in a really difficult situation, as The walmart I go to, the grocery store I go to, many restaurants I go to ... NONE of them have a "family" restroom, not a single one.  *I* don't mind using the ladies room, so frankly if it bugs you, too bad.

And Rachael you say over and over and -over- again ad nauseum that the waiting list for the NHS in your area is several miles long, and you've said over and over again that you can't see a therapist for some 6 years.  That puts you at self diagnosed.

In a very real way ALL TSes and most TGs are 'self-diagnosed.' We relate our stories to therapists and doctors who then attempt to determine whether or not what we tell them is a 'pack of lies' or the meanderings of a delusional mind.

I personally cannot imagine claiming the title of TS, for even a short period of time on the way to claiming F or M, if someone doesn't have the 'real' history associated with GID. But some do, Alan Finch who we recently discussed here being just one.

The therapists or doctors then confirm that we aren't delsuional and attach the 'diagnosis' to us. There is currently no genetic test available to determine 'scientifically' whether or not we are TS. It is all hearsay in that they hear us say we are and then conclude that we are not delusional and are TS.

But, yes, Rach, much as I hate to tread here, Allison and Andra are 'right' insofar as they say that we are all 'self-diagnosed.' At least until there is a 'real-life test' that proves conclusively that we are who we say we are.

The term is not necessarily insulting although as it was used it might well be seen that way.

Can we all, please, go back to not calling each other out?

Thanks so much.

BTW, from my experience Alison is also right about bathrooms. Not many unisex or family bathrooms here on the east coast of USA. I don't wanna have to cross my legs and drive to Montreal if I have to pee away from home. *smile* I cannot imagine Alison or anyone else doing it either.

Nichole

Nichole,
I was arguing with Alison's stance
that seems to say that gender neutral
rooms are a pipe dream and thus
all T's should fight for access to women's rooms.

As I said, in the case of most CD's, the issue
is not defensible. They are men who IDENTIFY as MEN
most are hetero, why on earth would any women
tolerate them in there.

For a good portion of TS's,
you can get a carry letter if you go to a therapist and that's enough.
The issue in this case would be GID sufferers outside
the medical system who don't carry such letters.
I agree they need to pee too. And again, fighting
for their access will be much harder than putting
our hat in the ring and pushing for gender neutral
or family rooms.

Androgyne's will go in their assigned birth sex restroom
since for them, its either. So, no issue.

Are you sure about gender neutral bathroom Nichole.
I've been in many malls on the east coast and they
do have family/handicaped restrooms right off the
corridor. Maybe people feel weird about using a
restroom marked for handicaped, but they are
rarely used and if someone needs to use them,
you'd be out soon anyway.

Keira,

I agree with alot of what you just said, but my main problem is with the unisex rooms,  I checked everywhere I went today, and I didnt see any, I mean I know they have em at malls and stuff, and larger places, but even then in the mall by my house they are terabbly out of the way.  but what about when your at Mcdonalds, or walmart, or like normal places that dont afford to throw down on a gender nuetral pee hole, (scuse my launguage),

I dunno, Im cool with just using the womans bathroom, if I get booted I'll just play dumb and say I had no idea, and go to the next place.

I still think we should be able to get gov issued cards that say we can legally use the room though. (see above mara post)

I agree Mara,
the problem is what standards do you use to get that card.
Right now, its being diagnosticated as TS,
which needs therapy and such things,
which takes money that some people don't have.

Even McDonalds and small restaurants have those one stall things
with a sink, around here. I think new restaurants will have them,
it actually saves space compared to normal restrooms.

I see, but I guess what I would say is if you are TS and cannot afford theraphy or the prereqs to get the card, at least there are some of us who can and will get ID registered pee'er cards, and overall that should help people leave you alone more knowing that such a thing exists, I mean there not gonna stop everybody to check thier cards, and most likely if they caught someone without a card, the same as what goes on today where most likely you will just get booted, wont be such a big deal.

It will al least help the community idea that we should be granted access freely, if we have followed legally identifiable criteria.

I mean alot of TS people who have been RLT in so many words for 20 plus years but are still legally male, could seriosly benifit from such a thing, especially based on the fact that not all are passable.

I have found that woman have alot easier of time understanding that we are woman mentally.

Also it is my inate belief that woman are smart creatures so FTM will be inheritantly good at pulling off going to the mens restroom without a card.

Overall I think it will do us good to have such a thing.

Quote from: Alison on February 04, 2008, 05:57:26 PM
I am a SO, Andra is my partner as well as JC...

I am also a non binary identifying person.  I have a female body but I am -not- female.  Rachael so eloquently said that "women's facilities are for women only".. And frankly this puts me in a really difficult situation, as The walmart I go to, the grocery store I go to, many restaurants I go to ... NONE of them have a "family" restroom, not a single one.  *I* don't mind using the ladies room, so frankly if it bugs you, too bad.

And Rachael you say over and over and -over- again ad nauseum that the waiting list for the NHS in your area is several miles long, and you've said over and over again that you can't see a therapist for some 6 years.  That puts you at self diagnosed.

mention it when the subject comes up, yeah, ad nausium? possibly not, internet relationship with andra? because i can see a bit wet divider....
it puts my GID as self diagnosed?, lets not forget, i did get a initial diagnosis of GID... and was refered to the gic for TREATMENT. so oh, not self diganosted.  But not the fact that im an intersexed girl, whos being allowed to transition to female, because they made a mistake.... somehow, GID nolonger matters...

Im hatimtoom haya tippa, ata hayita okianoos! haha
R >:D

racheal would (you) say that you believe that intersexed individuals do not have GID, that GID is more related to biological X's with no intersexed history?

Or is it possible that intersex individuals have GID towards a specific gender?

(YOU) sorry forgot to put the word you , my bad racheal not trying to put words in your mouth just ask a question. LOL

I think you can be IS an have GID, if they assigned a gender
different than the one your brain is inclined too, sure it can happen.

If by chance they assigned you the right way, well thank your lucky star!

That's the problem with thinking sex and gender are linked,
they see a penis and bam, that IS is male regarless if
the factors that influenced the ambiguous phenotype (body)
has also influenced the brain.

Rachael, even if your male and they diagnosed you IS, doesn't
mean you wouldn't want to still be male. It could have gone
either way. That's why I think IS are in the same boat as
TS in general.

Though, the medical community may make it easier for IS
to make that choice because they actually have proof
of some genetic messup, and not just the say so of
someone.

it was the sayso of someone that mutilated my genetals when i was a baby... sure, most is people are happy, and they got it right... my gid has a known base however, transsexuallity will be treated the same way when they find its cause.... and can say, yes, this person is whichever sex...

i dont need the andra-alison love brigade coming after me for my opinion...
Androgynes want to be recognised, want to be differnet, campaign for your own restroom... in the uk, theres LOADS of non asigned restrooms... if i was neither sex, id feel uncomfortable in both...

Alison, if your non binary, ZOMG, ur using a binary restroom, CONFORMIN TO SOCIETYS IDEAS ABOUT YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!! :P
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 05:42:01 AM
i dont need the andra-alison love brigade coming after me for my opinion...
Androgynes want to be recognised, want to be differnet, campaign for your own restroom... in the uk, theres LOADS of non asigned restrooms... if i was neither sex, id feel uncomfortable in both...

Alison, if your non binary, ZOMG, ur using a binary restroom, CONFORMIN TO SOCIETYS IDEAS ABOUT YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!! :P
R >:D

Perhaps I feel fairly comfortable in both given that gender is a rather arbitrary construct (in my opinion).  I just prefer to use whichever one is less likely to get me raped in (considering I am youngish, attractive and look like an unpassable f2m half the time).

Also, it's not for YOU to tell people when and where they are supposed to make a stand about something.    Believing in something doesn't mean you have to make a point about it every single second of your life.  ::)

"want to be different"  Oh like binary transsexuals do?   ::)

what does a binary identified transexual want to be different from dearest andra? last time i checked, oh, gosh, we fitted into society and generally got on with things...

and iirc, i didnt tell your 'partner' not to use it, i said if they dont id as female, dont use it.
Dual standards huh? CDs WANT to use the womens room, but pretty much everyone says they shoudlnt. they want to, an androgyne 'wants' to.... whats the difference my dearest font of  knowlage?
R >:D

Sorry to chime in on you ladies, but I think if your not TS, then use your biological bathroom.

I mean there is some law regarding this. isnt there?

If your TS then use the bathroom of the gender you identify with.

Quote from: mara on February 05, 2008, 07:04:12 AM
Sorry to chime in on you ladies, but I think if your not TS, then use your biological bathroom.

I mean there is some law regarding this. isnt there?

If your TS then use the bathroom of the gender you identify with.

Amusingly over here in the UK, SRS is regarded as being "gender reassignment surgery" which puts me in an interesting position when it comes to being able to use the mens.  Were I not going down the transition/surgery route I'd be happy to use the mens.

Wearing my mod hat for a moment.

Please keep discussion on this thread about the news article... This is starting to veer into another one of those "who among us is or isn't allowed in the bathroom" threads. I'd rather not have to lock it. And remember, no personal attacks.

thanks!

y2g

Quote from: y2gender on February 05, 2008, 07:14:43 AM
Wearing my mod hat for a moment.

Please keep discussion on this thread about the news article... This is starting to veer into another one of those "who among us is or isn't allowed in the bathroom" threads. I'd rather not have to lock it. And remember, no personal attacks.

thanks!

y2g

I concur. Pretty much we know one another's individual positions on these things. And have read them many times. This thread has NOT been about who is valid and why. No need to take it there, please. One's existence validates them. No one's existence invalidates another's existence.

The 'bathroom' issue whether it comes from left, right or center is invariably a sidetrack from whatever the 'real' issue is. To say one is 'uncomfortable' is merely a signal that I don't like what I am reading. I have no idea who is sitting, or hovering, next to me in a bathroom.

OTH, the argument in Maryland goes way past whether or not someone is in a bathroom and how that matters. The bathroom comes into it in order to provoke fear, outrage and uneasy feelings in order to gain a POLITICAL advantage. Not a moral one, nor a gender one.

Please be nice.

Nichole

true, its once more, making transpeople out to be weirdos who choose a different bathroom or changing room as the mood takes them and are there to perv on naked wiminz and eat children...
Scaremongering works sadly
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 06:37:44 AM
what does a binary identified transexual want to be different from dearest andra? last time i checked, oh, gosh, we fitted into society and generally got on with things...

Point well missed.  I large portion of Androgyne people HATE the fact that being out as what they really are means they can't blend in (particularly those who experience body dysphoria).  Stating that they all WANT to be different couldn't be further from the truth. 

Quote from: Keira on February 05, 2008, 03:05:52 AM
Nichole,
I was arguing with Alison's stance
that seems to say that gender neutral
rooms are a pipe dream and thus
all T's should fight for access to women's rooms.

As I said, in the case of most CD's, the issue
is not defensible. They are men who IDENTIFY as MEN
most are hetero, why on earth would any women
tolerate them in there.

For a good portion of TS's,
you can get a carry letter if you go to a therapist and that's enough.
The issue in this case would be GID sufferers outside
the medical system who don't carry such letters.
I agree they need to pee too. And again, fighting
for their access will be much harder than putting
our hat in the ring and pushing for gender neutral
or family rooms.

Androgyne's will go in their assigned birth sex restroom
since for them, its either. So, no issue.

Are you sure about gender neutral bathroom Nichole.
I've been in many malls on the east coast and they
do have family/handicaped restrooms right off the
corridor. Maybe people feel weird about using a
restroom marked for handicaped, but they are
rarely used and if someone needs to use them,
you'd be out soon anyway.

Keira -

I think you misunderstood me, but I'm a bit confused at what you mean by: "and thus
all T's should fight for access to women's rooms."   -- If you mean that all transsexual women should fight access for women's rooms, damn skippy they should and I'll be fighting alongside you.  However when a MtF or IS tells me that I am -not- a woman therefore I -shouldn't- be in the women's rooms when there is no other option for me here.  Frankly I get a little cheesed off.

In the large malls in the metroplex Albany NY area have handicapped and family restrooms, however, I live in the mountains, most of the businesses here have two restrooms, men and women.  Due to the way my body looks I am -much- safer going into the women's room, I am much more comfortable there.  If you're telling me that I need to only shop at places that offer neutral bathrooms, then frankly thats when I tell you too bad.  I'm not driving 45+ minutes each way to get to a city big enough where thats an option.  And the reason why is because *I* am comfortable using the womens room.

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 05:42:01 AM
i dont need the andra-alison love brigade coming after me for my opinion...
Androgynes want to be recognised, want to be differnet, campaign for your own restroom... in the uk, theres LOADS of non asigned restrooms... if i was neither sex, id feel uncomfortable in both...

Alison, if your non binary, ZOMG, ur using a binary restroom, CONFORMIN TO SOCIETYS IDEAS ABOUT YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!! :P
R >:D

I never said I wanted special treatment Rachael.  What I said was I was most comfortable using the restroom for my birth assigned sex, and if you have an issue with it, it is -your- problem, not mine.  I'm not "neither sex" .. my SEX is female, -you- my dear have said you're intersexed, Why aren't you using the intersexed restroom?  My guess is that it's because you're more comfortable in the womens room.  And that's A-OK with me.

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 06:37:44 AM
what does a binary identified transexual want to be different from dearest andra? last time i checked, oh, gosh, we fitted into society and generally got on with things...

and iirc, i didnt tell your 'partner' not to use it, i said if they dont id as female, dont use it.
Dual standards huh? CDs WANT to use the womens room, but pretty much everyone says they shoudlnt. they want to, an androgyne 'wants' to.... whats the difference my dearest font of  knowlage?
R >:D

Wait, three posts ago you were intersexed, now you're a transsexual again... Keep on the same page for me?

The difference for me is my birth sex is female.  I LOOK like a female, I PASS as a female.  I don't want to be different, I just want to take a damn leak. . just like everyone else...

tbh i dont know which to use... *shrugs* I2f? both to 1? ive gone through exactly the same thing as all m2fs, so i guess its TS? i dunno, whatever, point is, i identify as female, you said you didnt.
im actually quite confused , you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...
sure, female bodied, fine, if i saw you in a restroom how the hell do i know how you identify? im just going off what you say love.

Andra: point not well missed, you want to break the binary, you CANNOT be normal, as normal = binary gender... sorry, but it is. right or wrong, that is 'normal'
want to be both, neither, either intermitently? not normal by its definition. does abnormal = wrong? god no, but im sorry, i wont retract something i say when its simply fact. Binary transsexuals can blend, in current society, non binary folk cant, thats just the way it is.
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 04:52:33 PM
Binary transsexuals can blend, in current society, non binary folk cant, thats just the way it is.

Yeah, I suppose you've got a point - which is exactly why we should be fighting to break that definition of normal! Society arbitrarily defines normal. We should be looking to nature and science instead of herd mentality and that in-born fear of change and variation.

Viva la Revolu'cion!  :icon_2gun:

Hmmmm. I'm so violent tonight! What is wrong with me?!  :angel: > :) > :( > >:( > >:D

i dunno, i personally like the status quo...
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 04:52:33 PM
tbh i dont know which to use... *shrugs* I2f? both to 1? ive gone through exactly the same thing as all m2fs, so i guess its TS? i dunno, whatever, point is, i identify as female, you said you didnt.
im actually quite confused , you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...
sure, female bodied, fine, if i saw you in a restroom how the hell do i know how you identify? im just going off what you say love.

I don't want special places, I am happy with there being two sets of toilets for able bodied people.  If YOU have a problem with that and feel the need to restrict who can use existing facilities, leaving a third group who don't have a suitable toilet in YOUR opinion, YOU campaign for it.

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 04:52:33 PM
Andra: point not well missed, you want to break the binary, you CANNOT be normal, as normal = binary gender... sorry, but it is. right or wrong, that is 'normal'

Further proof that you missed what MY point was (clue: you can't decide to tell me what I meant, it doesn't work like that).  I was simply pointing out that BEING a gender that doesn't match your birth sex is not a choice.  m2fs and f2ms ARE different, their gender is indeed normal but other aspects of their lives definitely aren't.  They may be able to blend in after transition, but that's not the point.

Seriously though arent andra, allison, and racheal all saying the same thing???

Alison, If you were born a female, whats the problem you see with using the womans restroom, is it cause you present as a man, or andro?? Because even if you did, who would care or would legally do anything???


What are you two debating about I dont really get it..

Although Raceal, I agree as I often do with your points regarding this subject...

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 04:52:33 PM
you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...

"Whatever bloody combination you androgynes can think up"   Wow Rachael, you went above and beyond my regular expectation for ignorance.  Just FYI:  I didn't "think up" my gender.  No more then you did.  Ok?

Quote from: mara on February 05, 2008, 08:21:23 PM
Alison, If you were born a female, whats the problem you see with using the womans restroom, is it cause you present as a man, or andro?? Because even if you did, who would care or would legally do anything???

Mara-  Thats the thing, I don't mind using the women's restroom at all, however Rachael said earlier in this thread:

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 06:44:24 AM
the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >:D

Which I took offense to, as I am female sexed androgyne who does NOT plan on having any surgeries, and frankly I use the women's rooms, and thats totally fine with me.  If Rachael doesn't want to pee next to an androgyne in the next stall, it's her problem, not mine.

Quote from: Rachael on February 02, 2008, 06:44:24 AM
the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >:D

My office only has two bathrooms and rather than make one male, one female, they are gender neautral.  So now instead of one bathroom a piece.  We have two bathrooms.

The gender segmentation of bathrooms is dumb.  I think they should just do rows of single occupancy bathrooms, and they can be used by anyone. 

It's dumb because guys don't really use the bathroom for that much, and aren't in there very long.  So usually there's not a line there.  But there's always going to be a line into the women's restroom.  Make them gender neutral and less women have to stand in line.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 05, 2008, 10:05:48 PM
My office only has two bathrooms and rather than make one male, one female, they are gender neautral.  So now instead of one bathroom a piece.  We have two bathrooms.

The gender segmentation of bathrooms is dumb.  I think they should just do rows of single occupancy bathrooms, and they can be used by anyone. 

It's dumb because guys don't really use the bathroom for that much, and aren't in there very long.  So usually there's not a line there.  But there's always going to be a line into the women's restroom.  Make them gender neutral and less women have to stand in line.

That makes most sense in my opinion as well.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 05, 2008, 10:05:48 PM
My office only has two bathrooms and rather than make one male, one female, they are gender neautral.  So now instead of one bathroom a piece.  We have two bathrooms.

The gender segmentation of bathrooms is dumb.  I think they should just do rows of single occupancy bathrooms, and they can be used by anyone. 

It's dumb because guys don't really use the bathroom for that much, and aren't in there very long.  So usually there's not a line there.  But there's always going to be a line into the women's restroom.  Make them gender neutral and less women have to stand in line.

I agree with this as well... slightly more space intrusive but a much better option....

Quote from: Rachael on February 05, 2008, 04:52:33 PM
tbh i dont know which to use... *shrugs* I2f? both to 1? ive gone through exactly the same thing as all m2fs, so i guess its TS? i dunno, whatever, point is, i identify as female, you said you didnt.
im actually quite confused , you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...
sure, female bodied, fine, if i saw you in a restroom how the hell do i know how you identify? im just going off what you say love.
R >:D

Rachael, it seems you would not be considered Transsexual if you were born Intersex.
Criteria of the DSM-IV states for a diagnosis of GID:
"The individual must not have a concurrent physical intersex condition"
The ICD-10 states Transsexualism has the following criteria:
"The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality."

Androgynes aren't neither sex Rachael, Androgynes are neither gender. Neutrois desire to be neither sex or eliminate their body's sex markers. Most Androgynes look like normal men and women. The observable differences are that we don't act ultra-feminine or uber-macho and tend to wear clothing that is gender-neutral. Androgynes are generally practical people, neither particularly masculine nor feminine in behaviour... no matter what their natal sex may be. On the flip side, Bigender and Gender Fluid people move back and forth between distinctive masculine and feminine self-perceptions and behaviours.

As a GG, I would be trespassing in the mens room so I use the ladies room. The separation of the biological sexes is the original motivation for the Men/Women signs on the doors. And yes, I would alert security if an adult stranger with a penis entered the womans restroom. What biological female wouldn't? However, if the person with a penis can convince security it's perfectly ok for them to use the ladies room then it's ok by me too.

I doubt the proposed new law will stand as written. Cisgender women won't tolerate a male (aka: person with a penis) in a sex segregated area. I think the biological reality will continue to trump gender identity in restrooms and locker rooms.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

yeah, probably. it all bogs down to men and women with society, they dont care what type of trans you are.....

and anyway, i disagree with the DSM definition, as there must be some cause of trans....
plus its american, where you still refer to it as a mental illness...

in the uk its a medical condition, and all medical conditions have a biological root... Yeah, so im genetically intersexed, so ive got a more screwed up body than pete burns? so? i identify as a woman, not intersexed, or transsexual, just a woman, im transitioning, and 99.99% of society would see a transsexual if they knew... ive transitioned from a male outer body, to a female one, so whats not m2f? it wasnt like i was neither, i was surgically corrected to male, and raised male, whats a transsexual? whats male? i had a penis, i still do, i want rid, i suffer gender dysphoria, a phsychiatrist diagnosed me as a clear primary transsexual individual, to quote my report i got from my gp...i dont LIKE the ts label, but after some runins with folk here, they refuse to accept my opinion, as im 'not a propper m2f' my choice of words, your choice to be bothered by it.
R >:D

Really the Uk labels it as a med condition??

Well thats a giant step forward from here for sure...

mental illness is just ludacrious especially in it literal context...

Quote from: mara on February 06, 2008, 04:49:02 AM
Really the Uk labels it as a med condition??

ICD-10 Chapter V:
Mental and behavioural disorders >
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour>
(F64.) Gender identity disorders
    * (F64.0) Transsexualism
    * (F64.1) Dual-role transvestism
    * (F64.2) Gender identity disorder of childhood

Transsexualism is listed under "mental and behavioural disorders" in the IDC-10.

-Emerald

An IS can still be considered TS, just in another category of the DSM.
The DSM is like little boxes where they need to put people because
that's how doctors are.

If your male or female bodied and have GID, then your a TS
and need relief. What kind of hoops you have to jump through
to get there is totally irrelevant.

quite correct  K....

emerald: in the UK soc, its listed as a medical condition, NOT mental. wheres the debate?
R >:D