Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Okay, I placed my original thoughts in a separate thread just to not add to what seems always to be a topic that courts flames, especially with the stipulations attached to the OP. And the further encouragement to volatile ideas that have been presented in argumentative fashion.

But licensing? Sure, and, to be honest, perhaps we should also be given colored triangles we can wear on our clothing. Out of historical precedence I suggest that we reservfe pink for gay males and black for lesbian or 'lesbian-looking' women.

Other colored triangles can be discussed for MTFs in various stages of presentability and surgical congruence. We can discover other appropriate triangles for all the other 'types' of gender-variant or sexually birth-defective individuals.

The we are allowed, perhaps, to argue over which colored triangles deserve 'pride-of-place' in some hierarchy of value.

Good grief!! Real ID is not enough, now we require bathroom and shower-room attendants with law-enforcement credentialing to decide who goes where? Perhaps Homeland Security can work out the details. 

Has anyone considered common-sense and their current ability to go where they go without causing a disturbance. 

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on February 16, 2008, 03:08:14 PM
But licensing? Sure, and, to be honest, perhaps we should also be given traingles we can wear on our clothing. Out of historical precedence I suggest that we reservfe pink for gay males and black for lesbian or 'lesbian-looking' women.

Perhaps a poor choice of words.

The desired end-state is a system that will allow serious transitioners who are pre-op to use the restroom appropriate to their gender and, if someone claims they are in the wrong place, they have a legal defense for using that restroom.

An example: Jane Doe had been in RLT for 3 months now.  She walks into the mall restroom, and is clocked by a 6-year-old girl who says in a screechy voice that carries, "Mommy, what's that man doing in here?"  And worst case, everybody hears, and stops talking, and all eyes are on Jane.  The mall security arrives.

I would like a system that's fundie-proof that gets Jane out of trouble.  She may be able to show a drivers' license with the proper gender marker, but if the situation spins out of control, I want there to be a system where she can produce a special document that law enforcement will recognize and let her off the hook.

Can anyone come up with such a system that:

--Doesn't automatically out her to everybody when used (Yeah, the cops'll know, and will need training in respecting trans persons.)

--Isn't subject to other breaches of privacy information.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas on this matter.

Perhaps this should be in a different topic.

=K

Thats what I meant too, not a person licsening system, and bathroom one hehe, sorry for the confusion.

I have been approached twice by security and asked to leave, I mean I just say Ok and walk out and go to the nearest restroom, but it happens, and frankly I dont wanna have to leave, I could really use a document that just says, she is allowed to be here..

It would be nice, and I can only dream...

Posted on: February 16, 2008, 03:40:35 PM

---

Oh shoot I accidentally reposted on this subject, consider this the last one...

Sorry, sorry, sorry

Quote from: Karen on February 16, 2008, 03:23:48 PM
Can anyone come up with such a system that:

--Doesn't automatically out her to everybody when used (Yeah, the cops'll know, and will need training in respecting trans persons.)

--Isn't subject to other breaches of privacy information.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas on this matter.

Perhaps this should be in a different topic.

=K

Honestly my best idea for this is singular restrooms, instead of stalls in one big room.  More privacy for everyone, it'd eliminate ALL sorts of problems, not even trans related:

Single mom out with her 7 or 8 year old son and he has to use the restroom.  Thats a bit young to be going into bathrooms by yourself especially in busy places like malls, airports etc... the potential for abduction or other abuse is high.   So, what does Mom do?  Takes him into the womens room with her, which isn't the place for an 8 year old boy either.

SOME places have "family restrooms" which usually ARE just as I said, single room bathroom, with a toilet and a sink.  Instead of segregating those with 'special needs' (gender, children whatever)  why not make -every- bathroom a "family" bathroom.

I can emphathize with Ms. Doe's problem. Plus, she may well be feeling a lot of trepidation just to use a gendered bathroom she has never before used, or just recently begun to use. And her own nervousness can cause problems in that regard as well. (If you llok unsure, others pick up on that and wonder why you are unsure, spending more time analyzing the fearful persona and maybe eventually making that very frightening cascade of occurences happen.

But, I am leery of the licensing aspects. Already our papaer-trails are getting larger and then this layer will just leave more room for outing and heartbreak I am afraid. I still prefer common-sense and confidence-building.

Of course, I also prefer not having to deal with cops anytime at all. Apologies to anyone who either is or loves one, but so many tend to be pathological in some way or another. I tend to be more comfy with the crimis instead. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

N~

When confronted by the young child, you need to have a comeback. Maybe, the nerve of your child, my God, I'm so embarressed. Look distraught like this has happened before. What would a lady do when she has masculine features. She wouldn't run out of the restroom. If security came, you don't have to give ID, just tell them off. Now, if the police came, then you might need something. A letter from your therapist could answer all their questions. It shouldn't get that far. Just be calm and dignafied. Until you are comfortable going in the your expressed gender's restroom, go in and do what you have to do and leave. Don't wait around and fix your makeup unless there isn't anyone in there. When you get comfortable, you won't be clocked.
Sheila

Quote from: Alison on February 16, 2008, 03:59:52 PM

Quote from: Karen on February 16, 2008, 03:23:48 PM
Can anyone come up with such a system that:

--Doesn't automatically out her to everybody when used (Yeah, the cops'll know, and will need training in respecting trans persons.)

--Isn't subject to other breaches of privacy information.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas on this matter.

Perhaps this should be in a different topic.

=K

Honestly my best idea for this is singular restrooms, instead of stalls in one big room.  More privacy for everyone, it'd eliminate ALL sorts of problems, not even trans related:

Single mom out with her 7 or 8 year old son and he has to use the restroom.  Thats a bit young to be going into bathrooms by yourself especially in busy places like malls, airports etc... the potential for abduction or other abuse is high.   So, what does Mom do?  Takes him into the womens room with her, which isn't the place for an 8 year old boy either.

SOME places have "family restrooms" which usually ARE just as I said, single room bathroom, with a toilet and a sink.  Instead of segregating those with 'special needs' (gender, children whatever)  why not make -every- bathroom a "family" bathroom.

That would be more difficult in high volume places like stadiums and parks.

Although I could see a row of small, individual doors that had a communal sink area.
That might work.
Sort of like the stalls we have now, but with acual rows of outside doors not just inside stall doors.

Maybe?
Sara

I'm probably very lucky as I have never had any problems in female restrooms.

I did used to get thrown out of male restrooms before I started transition and men complaining 'there's a girl in here'..... ::)

^ when that happens you should know without doubt that you pass and your percieved as a woman.

why not make -every- bathroom a "family" bathroom. - Easy, money.  It would take more space and more materials.

It doesn't take that much more space if any Tekla.
Also, with the necessity of accomodating wheelchairs, it
could actually take less space.
Most restrooms, except maybe at stadiums are empty
most of the time, have lots and lots of wasted space for
corridors especially if they have to be accessible,
in front of the sinks, for privacy, the stalls are not
in front of the door or there is a second wall, etc.

In the women's room, I don't see much loss in efficiency.

In the men's room, because urinals are so efficient and
take so little space, they're space savers for sure.
But, men's bathroom are often the same size as women
ones even if men don't use the stalls as often: again
that's lost space.

Nobody really studies restroom traffic that much. But,
I'd bet that outside a few peak times, family restroom
are more efficient both economically and practically.

That's probably why they are getting more and more
frequent here in Montreal.

I do not see need for retro modding our restrooms into a new fashion...

It would never really catch either...

I just think that legal protection for transitioners, or other "situation" people should be in order...

Quote from: Berliegh on February 17, 2008, 04:34:00 AM
I'm probably very lucky as I have never had any problems in female restrooms.

I did used to get thrown out of male restrooms before I started transition and men complaining 'there's a girl in here'..... ::)

Wow you must have naturally looked really feminine. 


Anyways.  I agree with Alison.  The best answer to this silliness is private bathrooms for everyone.  All you would need to do is finish the stalls down to the floor and door, get rid of the urinal walls, and then probably put a guard on watch(this is for big places) for the community area.  I think they do this in Europe actually.

Ideally though most places are small enough that they already have single occupancy bathrooms.  Then you just need to take down the gender markers outside and people can use whichever one is empty.

It feels so childish to be still worried about bathroom issues as adults.  Segregating bathrooms by gender sounds like something a pre-school teacher came up with.

Quote from: Keira on February 17, 2008, 01:22:29 PM
Nobody really studies restroom traffic that much. But,
I'd bet that outside a few peak times, family restroom
are more efficient both economically and practically.

The issue of 'potty parity' has been brought up before.  Here's but one example:

'Potty parity' aims to remedy long lines

By Matt Bradley | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p16s01-lihc.html)

""There's always this conversation, this conspiracy" among women waiting in line for the bathroom, [Kari Roberts of Reading, Mass] says. "Women are always asking: 'Is there anyone in the men's room? Can we go in there and take it over?'"

When it came to restrooms, architects (and lawyers) used to think in terms of square footage rather than number of outlets - or physiology. But studies show that because women have different needs, on average they spend twice as much time in the bathroom as men, causing longer lines.

In her 1988 graduate thesis, Sandra Rawls of the Virginia Polytechnic Institute timed how long it took hundreds of men and women to answer nature's call. Her observations of the time disparity between the sexes explains the long lines for women."

Karen

Ive got a field trip coming up at uni... 6 days.... im utterly terrified, because my uni is so accepting....
No 'you must use the mens'
no 'here use this neutral stuff'
But they just threw me in with the girls.
Now nobody on my course knows, atleast i don't think they do (changed course)
SO...
sharing with 6 girls in a room... then communal bathroom facilities, and washroom etc..... obviously stalled showers... but still... thanks to society, im terrified about this. What if someone finds out? is horrified by my presence? is nice and vocal? thier problem or not, it could cause me a lot of trouble.
you know what? i shouldn't be scared... i have the same fugging right as every other girl to use that restroom and shower block... they just had that right longer...
its society's damn problem. NOT ours....
Actual transsexual people are choosing nothing, they are not perverts. and they are not doing it for kicks....
Transsexuals should be allowed the right restroom by right.... what effort is a letter?
CDs, TVs, etc, HAVE NO RIGHT to the womens room.... you are not women, your out dressed? tough! hold it!
Thanks to you lot, society sees all percived gender variants, as in it for the kicks....
tbh they ahve more to worry from the lesbians... but nobody thinks about banning gays from the restroom of thier sex do they?
oh well.
This might sound like a rant, well it is. I dont really care if i might upset one or two, some things need to be said, and at the end of the day. People want to cry about thier rights... why not think about someone elses? and if your supposed right impinges on thiers...
equality isnt equal.
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 02:23:23 PM

CDs, TVs, etc, HAVE NO RIGHT to the womens room.... you are not women, your out dressed? tough! hold it!

Wow.  So CDs, TVs--have no right to relieve their bladder in a restroom?  Wonderful world you're striving for there.
Good luck on your trip, and I hope the girl's sharing a shower with you are way more understanding than you are.

Also, when did your writing style abruptly change?  You didn't used to have as many typos and spacing errors in your posts.  I was wondering if your keyboard broke or if it was intentional and why?

tvs and cds do have a right, just not in the womens, as they aren't....

and im snowed under with flu, and clearly not paying enough attention, sorry.
R >:D

A CD who identifies as male is a man.
And most of them also look like men (that's a fact).
Why on earth should putting on a dress get you access
to the women's restroom?

As I said, the only real solution is neutral single stall rooms with corridor access.
This solves all problems and is probably also the most efficient way to do things.

ive yet to meet a crossdresser who doesnt id as male....
surely if a cd ids as female, thier transsexual...?

thats entirely what i meant k... thankyou for shortening my flu ravaged rant....
men in mens room, women in womensroom...
R >:D

not true,

I agree with Racheal here CD, TV, do not have right to use the restroom of thier presentation.


But All that really needs to be done is a Legal Licensing system for TS woman and men that says they have legally been deemed eligable to be in that restroom...

Seems alot easier to set up.

exactly.... i mean, how hard is it to ask your therapist for a letter saying your offically trans, and that you have the right to use that room... if you have to prove you belong, carry proof....
if you dont, dont.. seems simple, maybe a tiny bit degrading, but then again, if it doesnt come up, its not, if it does, its already fairly embaracing id wager....
whats worse? getting kicked out? or proving you belong?

what makes me laugh, is the transpeople who complain about this situation, then also bitch when someone trys to tie down a cause for trans... they seem to prefer it being a non proven 'just is' thing, then get upset when someone calls them out and thy cant prove they belong... pick a side people ><
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 04:53:29 PM

what makes me laugh, is the transpeople who complain about this situation, then also bitch when someone trys to tie down a cause for trans... they seem to prefer it being a non proven 'just is' thing, then get upset when someone calls them out and thy cant prove they belong... pick a side people ><
R >:D

Not everyone subscribes to the same rigid gender binary that you do, but that shouldn't mean they have to worry about their safety when using the restroom.

And what is so scary about CDs anyways?

And this licensing business is a bit scary.  Not sure I want to be in a government database with the wrong letter next to my name.

It also seems like this question always gets skewed to the MTF.  I wonder if any FTMs would feel threatened by a female CD using the men's room?  Or at least to the extent many MTF's have expressed their own outrage at the notion.

Rachael;

Be careful.

I know someone here who was in a similar situation involving communal disrobing.  One other girl found out, meaning all found out in a half hour.  Her therapist's carry letter was worthless.

If it were me, I'd ask for special accommodations and make up a lame-but-believable story about a temporary-but-contagious infection that only precludes rooming together.  They'll appreciate your consideration for their health.

Karen

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 17, 2008, 01:54:57 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on February 17, 2008, 04:34:00 AM
I'm probably very lucky as I have never had any problems in female restrooms.

I did used to get thrown out of male restrooms before I started transition and men complaining 'there's a girl in here'..... ::)

Wow you must have naturally looked really feminine. 

I did.......but it wasn't a big deal or anything and it seemed quite normal to me. People thought I was female from about the age if 13 onwards to my 20's. I'd get hit on by guys at music gigs and festivals and it was fun hanging out with girls who had no idea.....

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 17, 2008, 05:39:17 PM


And what is so scary about CDs anyways?

You met any? :P

Karen:yeah, true, but then, my tutor has already said: if anything happens, the department is on my side.... thier problem. not the university, or mine....
Tbh, im more worried about my passing ability... but then, after having worked for 5 months stealth, and my tutor group never knew... maybe i can pull it off? i dunno, theres only to do and die, than to live in fear and never try.
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 06:11:07 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 17, 2008, 05:39:17 PM


And what is so scary about CDs anyways?

You met any? :P

R >:D

Yes.  And they seemed more fabulous than scary.

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 06:11:07 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 17, 2008, 05:39:17 PM


And what is so scary about CDs anyways?

You met any? :P

Karen:yeah, true, but then, my tutor has already said: if anything happens, the department is on my side.... thier problem. not the university, or mine....
Tbh, im more worried about my passing ability... but then, after having worked for 5 months stealth, and my tutor group never knew... maybe i can pull it off? i dunno, theres only to do and die, than to live in fear and never try.
R >:D

From your profile photograph you passing ability looks really good......you will be surprised how easy it can be and you may be worrying for nothing.

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 06:11:07 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 17, 2008, 05:39:17 PM


And what is so scary about CDs anyways?

You met any? :P

Some are guys in dresses, to be sure, some are absolutely ladylike when dressed and out.  Some look frumpy, some I steal dressing tips from.  Some are trying to make fun of females/femininity, some don't just dream it, they be it, if even for a Saturday night.

I'm more than willing to give the well-dressed/behaved a chance, and of course I'm going to steer clear of the trainwrecks, as do the other people in the neighborhood (there's a Second Saturday Artwalk that basically makes LGBT a minority in their 'neighborhood' (http://livinginurbansac.blogspot.com/2006/07/lavender-heights.html) on that evening.  Sometimes it's just fun to sit on the stoop of one of the old victorians and watch...)

=K

Seems like sanity has gone out the window here. 

Quote from: Keira on February 17, 2008, 04:38:03 PM
As I said, the only real solution is neutral single stall rooms with corridor access.
This solves all problems and is probably also the most efficient way to do things.

i agree. this is such a stupid non-issue that the fundies use to spread hate against Trans people.

how hard can it be to resolve if Starbucks has already solved the "problem" in thousands of its facilities? it's no big deal, just that problem-makers and haters are trying to make it seem as such.

-ellie

You know it's interesting this bathroom issue.
You know, remodeling bathrooms is kinda a big deal.
It's one of the reasons Mile High Stadium in Denver was shut down.
Mile High was built back in a day when most patrons were men and boys.
Therefor there was an abundance of stalls and urinals for guys.
But for women there was very few.
Later they had to remodel some Mens restrooms to be Womens
But that created a problem because the archetecture was designed to handle only so many people going at once. There was just enough space alloted for for all the guys, and when remodeled, the guys lost needed restrooms. And there were still not enough for the Women.
That was one of the problems that led to it's demise.

Doing major structural remodeling in a comercial building is costly and changes the ability to absorb the impact of a high volume of users.

In my school for instance, there is one mens and one womens restroom on each floor.
All space is alloted for.
We have an old 11 story office building.
You couldn't just put neutral bathrooms on one floor as people whould have to go through the already overused elavators to get there. it would take 20 minutes from a break from a class on one floor to travel to the floor with the neutral restroom, use it, and return to the other floor.

It would be a disaster, and then only one user at a time, so at high volume times like lunch hour, that floor would be without a functional restroom as there would be always somebody in it.

Not very good planning.

Probably the best bet is to just let people use the restroom they want which is what my school does.

Sara

i have been reading this  and to me like karen said I'm more than willing to give the well-dressed/behaved a

chance to use the proper rest room . that they are presenting as so if they are female use the female

bath room  if they are male . do the same thing. just do what you got to do . and  then go on your marry

way about your own businse. and looking at it from that point of veiw i would think everything would be ok

but it seams to me from the way the wold . wants to view this matter. it seams to get very dogmatic and

full of a bunch of law that they want to make about this matter . that mont to noting more then  a buch of

foo foo. maybe some day the time will come when this wont be a problem at all . and we can all live

together with out all this dogmmatic trash  just  my 2 cent,s on this  ::) ::)

Restroom remodeling is very expensive. Theres the plumbing and all the fixtures not to mention making the space. I don't think any business would change a restroom, unless it was doing a major remodel. If a place that had a one stall restroom and they had two of them, they could just put locks on the doors and call them anyones restroom.
I guess people here are paranoid about using the restroom with the opposite gender. I know a lot of restrooms have stalls and they have locks on the stalls and the stalls are at least 7 feet high and some you couldn't look under so what are you all afraid of? Susan's webpage is for all transgender people and I believe that when it started it was for the right to be who you are. Some of us are CD, some of us are TS, some of us are gender queer/variant but we all are transgender. Restroom issue has got to be the most ignorant issue that has ever come up, on this webpage and at City Council meetings and any other place on the this planet
Sheila

Why change the restrooms when its not nessecary??

All I think needs to be done is make a little goverment office, that recieves a letter from a therapist of a TS person, review it, then issue a piece of paper that says the TS person can use the restroom they are identify with.

Simple, wont cost millions, we are talking one guy in a cubicle in some gov building

Then if a Trans person is stopped in a bathroom and police are called, they will have legal ground. Simple.

Remodding restrooms nationwide, or worldwide IS MILLIONS, even just to change the little women/man signs worldwide would be MILLIONS.

Sheila, its not us ONLY that care, its the other GG too.
If you can find convince them to have a male identified CD go into a restroom
and not care about it, well good luck to you.

As in all conflict resolution, you have to focus on the other people's needs
instead of saying they need to change. People have legitimate concerns
about CD's; early transition TS are often conflated with CD's, so that's
where the TS issue comes from. A simple carry letter from a psychologist
should be enough if the police departments get sensitivity training
and are advised of the issue through internal memos. No need
to start a new bureaucratie and licensing bureau to get this done.

You know what would be nice; a third gender marker on ID's
That way we could select O or other for those who are not exact if we wish.
That way they'd start thinking about that rather than just dualism.

By the way,
Anybody been to safe2pee.org?
That's a great website.
I heard about it in WIRED of all places.

It lets you find the nearest listed, known safe restroom in your area to Trans people and then uses Google maps to help you find it.
Whether non-gendermarked or just accepted use, these things are specified.
It lets you enter new ones too.
check it out.

www.safe2pee.org

Sara

We should not be having this conversation about this topic because if you've transitioned it should never be a problem..

Some of the later comments about changing restrooms are absolutely crazy...

Quote from: debbie.j on February 17, 2008, 09:05:48 PM
i have been reading this  and to me like karen said I'm more than willing to give the well-dressed/behaved a

chance to use the proper rest room . that they are presenting as so if they are female use the female


bath room 

Um, presenting as female does not mean someone is female....
should a man in a cat suit use the litter tray? no.... (amusing as that might be)

A male identified crossdresser is still male.
If he needs to go to the toilet, thats his dilemma... hes not a female, why should he be let into the female restroom just because hes dressed like one?
thats all it is at the end of the day... dressing up... under it all, is a man....the man wants to pee, not the outfit, or wig, or makup...
Women will never accept men in the womens room....
now the point here, is transsexual women ARE NOT men.... bingo! oh, prove it you say? so many suggestions for that.... and i agree.... if you have to prove it... carry proof... it aint hard. even now...you may not look it, but you are female, and entitled to use the womens room....


Its like a natal female friend of mine... shes a biker, went to the ladies in her leathers and brain bucket... some woman is 'zomg man am in here' and runs to the manager....
they confront my friend who takes her helmet and jacket off... and their omg dramaz.. it is a woman!
there are ways of taking the cover off a transsexual person and proving thier a female... dignified? no, but neither is being outed as a dude... what do you prefer? man or transwoman?

Unisex bathrooms wont EVER take entirely... some yes. all? no... Think about the  public restrooms.... unisex? give me a break.... women would NEVER use them. EVER....
R >:D

i agree with so many of you ladies on here. this restroom thing is completely ludacris. i used to think that i only identified as a CD, but i have also had a strong feeling i should be a woman. i have posted in another thread that people have repeatedly asked if i gave birth to my son, then my wife told me the other day it went further back, people were asking her if i had just given birth to my daughter, i know she was quite offended probably standing there in her hospital gown and i'm sleeping by the window. i have used the women's restroom many places without incidence. i have no carr letter or anything like that. the only place i don't use it is at work as they all still believe i identify as male, i am quite uncomfortable using the men's room as i get some funny looks from customers, so i use the family restroom or the one in the shop or i hold it. holding it, for some isn't possible nor is it medically a good idea, as if you hold it too long you are prone to contracting a UTI.

IMHO, a man who looks like a man in a dress(mustache, beard, that sort of thing) should not be in the women's room. i admit, i would be a little frightened as well, if someone sporting a zztop beard came into the women's bathroom. the well-behaved, well-dressed in my view deserve a chance. i like Mara's little cubicle idea as well that way we are legally protected and it wouldn't cost lots of money. And if it's gonna be anyone it should be a therapist well versed in gender issues that has control of this matter, that way they are impartial and required by medical law to provide patient confidentiality. i also like the other idea of having a third gender marker allowed on drivers licenses and make it at the state and federal levels. best bet, government therapist in well versed gender issues to oversee everything, then they can approve gender marker on license, that way everybody is happy and everybody is covered. then everybody can use the restroom they feel they should use. feel free to poke holes in my idea...lol.

and around here in ohio, the gender girls use the family and unisex bathrooms quite often from what i've seen..but that's here of course...lol

Quote from: mickie on February 18, 2008, 07:39:18 AM

and around here in ohio, the gender girls use the family and unisex bathrooms quite often from what i've seen..but that's here of course...lol

hi mickie  it,s like that here too also in mi we girls do the same unless we are at the club. then we use the

ladys rest rooms

the Gender girls?

What are you? the bloody A team?
R >:D

gender girls, natal females, biological females, genetic females, cisgendered females, etc. etc. the a-team? as long as no one thinks i'm mr. t. then sure why not?...lol

What the hell is gender girls?
GG i always assumed meant 'genetic girl' or in some sickly circles 'genuine girls' or some rubbish... gender girls makes absolutely zero gramatical sense....
Tbh, next to nobody, male or female, uses the disabled, or family toilets here... theres far more mens and womens loos...

hehe, that term has made my day ^_^
R >:D

i am glad to have made your day rachael,


Mickie

<ironic mode on>

I guess all the masculine looking women and feminine looking men should hire armed bodyguards before using restrooms designated for their birth gender...  ::)

Z

speaking of which, this reminds me of last night. i was at work and the power went out. we had a customer who couldn't leave cause his only car was in the shop and we couldn't get it down, (electric lifts and no emergency release valve). the guy had to go to the bathroom, so i told him to use the one closest to us since we were going to lose our emergency lights in about half an hour. all other associates were down kind of gathered together and were trying to get the guy to leave. one person told another girl to go tell him he had to leave, next thing i hear "i'm not going into the men's bathroom!" so i had to stick up for the customer since i heard it half way across the store, then everybody was like ooooohh. i can see the deal that women want their privacy in the bathroom, i believe it to be a whole personale issue on each individual. but really, i have never heard any men complain about women using the men's room(if they have to go), of course they complain that it stinks, it's nasty, and men don't seem to know how to hit such a big damn hole that's right in front of them...lol. so far no men seem to have too much problem with cisgendered women or transmen using the bathroom. and i agree this kind of thread always seems to cater to the MTF and using the women's room. it still fascinates me that women think "men" taking oestrogen are going to do something wierd like rape them.  ::)

Quote from: Zythyra on February 18, 2008, 11:46:20 AM
<ironic mode on>

I guess all the masculine looking women and feminine looking men should hire armed bodyguards before using restrooms designated for their birth gender...  ::)

Z

Not far off....
one of my lesbian friends has TONS of trouble in the  womens room because she looks masculine....
R

Quote from: Rachael on February 18, 2008, 12:38:47 PM

Quote from: Zythyra on February 18, 2008, 11:46:20 AM
<ironic mode on>

I guess all the masculine looking women and feminine looking men should hire armed bodyguards before using restrooms designated for their birth gender...  ::)

Z

Not far off....
one of my lesbian friends has TONS of trouble in the  womens room because she looks masculine....
R

And you think that's okay?

I once had someone point out to me that the bathroom I was in was the Men's Room.  I thought it was funny.  I haven't yet gone to the women's restroom (being pre-everything) but I can imagine I would think it less funny than my previous experience if I were to have troubles.

The only thing wrong with a Third Gender marker is that, then What right do those people have, they can go into either the mens or womens, I mean there would be chaos..  They arent gonna build a third gender bathroom in every place. period. it just wont ever catch on.

or if it did happen there would be a Ofemale and a Omale to designate what rights they have to certain places, long story short I dont see that working, at all.

Just make it so that the transtioner has LEGAL right to use the bathroom they present as, pending a verifiction process done through collaboration of therapists and a tiny gov office.

Simple, wouldnt cost didly and then we would have LEGAL right to be there pre SRS, which for some and many lasts a long time, and some never have SRS to obtain full legal male/female status...

Who'd have thought such a small thing as where I go to use the loo would provoke so much use of bandwidth? And I didn't even actually 'start' this thread. The OP was posted to another thread that was moved from this area. And in the split became a new topic. Did I strike nerves unaware?  :)

Look-it guys, gals, neutrois, whomever. Just use the toilet you can use without a lot of drama. Do your business and don't hang out.

I have never once had anyone question in any way my presence in a toilet. (OK, after some thought I realize that back before hormones, just from dressing I was questioned about the men's a couple of times.) Or, in a shower-room. When people have such difficulties possibly what's necessary is to think ahead, plan ahead. Besides, except for Wednesdays and Thursdays when I am at school most of the day or all day, I never use public toilets without absolute necessity.

To be honest, try this, ask for directions to the loo and go to the one the clerk, security guard, other person points you to. I do not believe we need new government bureaurocracies to administer our bathroom proclivities for us.

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on February 18, 2008, 05:24:40 PM

To be honest, try this, ask for directions to the loo and go to the one the clerk, security guard, other person points you to. I do not believe we need new government bureaurocracies to administer our bathroom proclivities for us.

Nichole

That's wonderful advice.  ID cards?  Government interventions?  That sounds perfectly ghastly to me.  Just confidently walk in and use it.  If you have to wait in a cue, best to rethink it.  Just remember, few others are there waiting to validate you.  Just don't give them a chance.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Sure go through life skipping wait lines, driving out of the way to use some "safe" restroom, or dont bother ever expecting to be able to fix your makeup in confidence and taking as much time as any other human is allowed.

We could live scared and frightfully feel like outsiders, or...

we could demand rights and be equals?

I dunno i take the later.

When the human rights commission in SF looked into this it was concluded that an increase in single person restrooms designated for use by either sex were the best way to go.  So new buildings have to have them, but we did not call for them to be added to existing structures, figuring that a fight between the SF TG community and the major property managers and property owners would not be one we could win.  But, we also saw that there was a trend in that direction anyway, in part because of ADA, and in part because of the rise of single parents with children of different genders then themselves.  So many places had already turned their single person restrooms into unisex rooms - the good old, first come first serve.  And by unisex I don't think anyone means mass bathrooms, but rather these single person rooms.  However you can't make all restrooms like that, they do take more room, and more cost than a standard setup.  In the same space I can fit 12 stalls and 2 sinks I could only make 3, 4 at the most single person facilities.  But retroactive design changes are always VERY EXPENSIVE.

Having the government give out some sort of permit for this, is absurd.  First you would have to get that passed, which in this political climate is not happening.  Second, I think our government has more important stuff to do right about now then even bother with this, which affects very few people - and at any rate is a local, not national issue.

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 02:23:23 PM
sharing with 6 girls in a room... then communal bathroom facilities, and washroom etc..... obviously stalled showers... but still... thanks to society, im terrified about this.

Here's how I manage the women's showers, being pre-op: Wear a bathrobe. Go there early before everyone else wakes up. Head all the way to the last shower at the end. Turn your back when opening up your bathrobe when you step in. Put it back on before stepping out. If you follow this method you can relax as it's virtually impossible you'll be outed. Of course, this works best when you have individual shower stalls. If they're all out in the open, that would be tricky. Go while everyone is sleeping and be quick about it.

Posted on: February 19, 2008, 12:23:10 AM

---

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 06:11:07 PMTbh, im more worried about my passing ability...

Who are you and what have you done with Rachael? The most confident passer who's ever posted here?

Passing in the shower is a lot harder than on the dance floor.

Not if you follow my advice. :)

Yeah, but if you don't shower, people will dislike you for an entire different reason.

Not shower?  ??? I posted a way that would allow Rach to shower, I've used it myself in women's showers. It doesn't have to be scary.

Quote from: Kristi on February 18, 2008, 09:04:05 PM
If you have to wait in a cue, best to rethink it.

this is an awful lot of talk about something very simple.  Actually, in a wait line, I stand, roll my eyes, chit chat.....whatever.  You belong there.  relax.  I've been full time just about a year now, and not once in the thousand or so times I've gone into a ladies room has anyone even glanced in an unsure way at me.  Smile....yes. 

Usually, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......well you know the metaphor.




Bev
*quack*

Bev, actually I agree.  And I have waited in cues as well and not had a problem.  Not even once.  Same with waiting in line to buy bras and panties.  I have had some great conversations with other women, who had not the slightest funny glance.  However, for those who are not confident about their passing abilities, acting suspicious amongst a herd of women under pressure is probably not a good thing.  But it is certainly a great confidence builder the first time you do it.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

...Both Beverly and Kristi...you nailed it.....and I couldn't have put it across any better myself.....thanks for that..

Quote from: Kristi on February 19, 2008, 11:41:49 PM
Bev, actually I agree.  And I have waited in cues as well and not had a problem.  Not even once.  Same with waiting in line to buy bras and panties.  I have had some great conversations with other women, who had not the slightest funny glance.  However, for those who are not confident about their passing abilities, acting suspicious amongst a herd of women under pressure is probably not a good thing.  But it is certainly a great confidence builder the first time you do it.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

good advice... ;)

Quote from: Beverly on February 19, 2008, 10:27:49 PM
Usually, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......well you know the metaphor.

Hey maybe you have a easy time looking and acting like a duck, but not all do. So I guess just pity the non-passable and tell to just act confident huh?

Mara,
I don't know what you look like but I always thought I wasn't passable. I will bet I have a lot more going against me than you do. No more competition. I  have tried to imitate the female gestures and with the use of cosmetics and of course the good old estrogen pill (patch for me), I became passable. I really don't understand it but I'm passable. I never get the second look or even a wierd first look. I have been asked out for a date, a couple of times. I'm married so that is a no brainer there. I dress accordingly and I just don't know. I know that I have said that everyone in town knows me, this is true, but know one knows me in Hawaii where I took a 2 week vacation. Down to Disneyworld in Florida, no one knows me there. Not to mention all the little road trips I take all over the state and adjoining states. It can happen and it is hard, believe me. You are the hardest critic of your self.
Sheila

Quote from: mara on February 20, 2008, 06:50:27 PM

Hey maybe you have a easy time looking and acting like a duck, but not all do. So I guess just pity the non-passable and tell to just act confident huh?

Each of us has our own personality.  Some shy, some bold, some bodacious.  You have to have the audacity to claim BEING YOU.  I know a few gg's who are very, very manish looking, but are accepted as female without question, by total strangers.  Yes, I used to worry about "passing"  (*ugh!  I hate that word*)  also, but as Sheila says, estrogen does wonders.  You could BE the bestest looking, most feminine looking genetic duck, and if you did not behave like a duck, all in the pond would look upon you with suspicion.  You need to learn how to quack dear, and swim with the ducks.

Except for extensive voice training (self taught) I didn't have to, because for some reason or other, once I transitioned, my brain told my body what to do.    Marcy smiles every time I step over the doggies on the floor, or just walk.  I can't explain it, but somehow, my "girl-walk" , "girl dance", and "girl gesture" genes all kicked in with the steady diet of estrogen.  If this doesn't/didn't happen for you, then study quackers in their natural habitat..........
and practice quacking!


Bev

Quote from: mara on February 20, 2008, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: Beverly on February 19, 2008, 10:27:49 PM
Usually, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......well you know the metaphor.

Hey maybe you have a easy time looking and acting like a duck, but not all do. So I guess just pity the non-passable and tell to just act confident huh?

Nope, Mara. Why pity them at all. I think there was a time when all of us 'didn't pass.' Well, 'cept for Berleigh, maybe.   ;D

If you need my pity, then you have problems way bigger than which loo you use. And, as Sheila said, sometimes you can do a lot with confidence and some other times you've gotten to 'passing' a whole lot sooner and more easily than you thought.

It's a process and sometimes the best way to learn can be to struggle a bit.

Look-it, a big brouhaha over bathrooms is not my idea of progressive social change. In fact this entire line-of-reasoning sounds a lot like the worst arguments of the WBT crew and the Religious Wrong. The energy can be better put toward working for acceptance of gender-variant people. But, I am not about to think that acceptance is going to come initially from a frontal assault against the norm of men's and women's loos!

In point-of-fact that battle is gonna lose all of us much more than anyone might gain from it.

Just wait for hormones to do their work and until one's own confidence IS sufficient that he/she feels like they belong WHEREVER they happen to be. Then the battle's won anyway and it doesn't require some 'revolutionary' action.

Nichole

Quote from: Hypatia on February 19, 2008, 09:40:27 PM
Not shower?  ??? I posted a way that would allow Rach to shower, I've used it myself in women's showers. It doesn't have to be scary.

your right Hypatia it does work ;) :)

hi all,

I asked the question about what bathroom to use many months ago and all the ladies said back then for God sake use the women's. I have been ever since and have had no problems, not even a backward glance. I also use female changing rooms when buying new clothes and not a word is said. Last time I went shopping for a swimming cosy and had to go out and look again for a SLIGHTLY bigger size, lol. No problem and when I got to the check out the same person was serving and started a conversation about holidays and am i going anywhere special. Confidence is the key I think.

I do however carry a letter from my clinic that says I am M/f transexual just in case, lol.

This has been a real confidence builder for me.

hugs

Nigella

Quote from: Beverly on February 20, 2008, 09:00:01 PMfor some reason or other, once I transitioned, my brain told my body what to do.    Marcy smiles every time I step over the doggies on the floor, or just walk.  I can't explain it, but somehow, my "girl-walk" , "girl dance", and "girl gesture" genes all kicked in with the steady diet of estrogen.

I've found this to be true too. Well said, Bev. It's like magick. No... It is magick, literally.

Posted on: February 22, 2008, 08:29:22 AM

---

Quote from: Nichole on February 20, 2008, 09:10:55 PMIn fact this entire line-of-reasoning sounds a lot like the worst arguments of the WBT crew and the Religious Wrong.

I understand the "Religious Wrong" all too well--apt phrase, that-- but what does the "WBT crew" refer to?

QuoteJust wait for hormones to do their work and until one's own confidence IS sufficient that he/she feels like they belong WHEREVER they happen to be. Then the battle's won anyway and it doesn't require some 'revolutionary' action.

Good point, Nichole. For TS people, we face a difficult early-transitional stage, but once we get over that hump, we're pretty much home free. We don't need a movement, really, as long as we get our 'mones and surgery.

Women Born Transsexual, a 'political' term used by some of the more persistently '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' HBS proponents. A distinction without much of a difference. A way I might feel better, temporarily, about myself by claiming that you are not me. Yet, what could be more obvious than that anyway?

If confidence can be instilled that way imagine what the result would be should all those 'different' ones be disappeared? Where would I get my confidence then?

:)

N~

Dutch courage always worked for me.

And to all who said that this is pretty much a silly fight, with no real gain, and much possible loss - your right.

Quote from: Nichole on February 22, 2008, 08:59:59 AM
Women Born Transsexual, a 'political' term used by some of the more persistently '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' HBS proponents.

Sounds like a deliberate takeoff on the "womyn born womyn" definition that was formulated to exclude transsexual women from the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

Quote from: Hypatia on February 23, 2008, 03:47:44 AM

Quote from: Nichole on February 22, 2008, 08:59:59 AM
Women Born Transsexual, a 'political' term used by some of the more persistently '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' HBS proponents.

Sounds like a deliberate takeoff on the "womyn born womyn" definition that was formulated to exclude transsexual women from the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

MWMF boards is the only place I've seen WBT used. Also it's not tied to HBS over there.

mwmf?

we work on radio frequencies now?
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 25, 2008, 01:30:30 PM
mwmf?

we work on radio frequencies now?
R >:D

Michigan's Womyn Music Festival forums

The most flaming vitriolic anti-trans forum on the net, that isn't religious-based.

i might go to that festival one year for lols.
see what all the fuss is.
R >:D

Quote from: Beverly on February 20, 2008, 09:00:01 PM

Quote from: mara on February 20, 2008, 06:50:27 PM

Hey maybe you have a easy time looking and acting like a duck, but not all do. So I guess just pity the non-passable and tell to just act confident huh?

Each of us has our own personality.  Some shy, some bold, some bodacious.  You have to have the audacity to claim BEING YOU.  I know a few gg's who are very, very manish looking, but are accepted as female without question, by total strangers.  Yes, I used to worry about "passing"  (*ugh!  I hate that word*)  also, but as Sheila says, estrogen does wonders.  You could BE the bestest looking, most feminine looking genetic duck, and if you did not behave like a duck, all in the pond would look upon you with suspicion.  You need to learn how to quack dear, and swim with the ducks.

Except for extensive voice training (self taught) I didn't have to, because for some reason or other, once I transitioned, my brain told my body what to do.    Marcy smiles every time I step over the doggies on the floor, or just walk.  I can't explain it, but somehow, my "girl-walk" , "girl dance", and "girl gesture" genes all kicked in with the steady diet of estrogen.  If this doesn't/didn't happen for you, then study quackers in their natural habitat..........
and practice quacking!


Bev

The girl walk, girl gesture stuff I had before hormones...it probably gave me issues and made people doubt if I was a boy or a girl, even when dressed in baggy men's clothes.

I know a FtM 'spotted me' a while pre-transition, walking on the street, in men's clothes. He mentioned later when we talked, that he was pretty sure I was MtF.

Posted on: February 25, 2008, 02:01:08 PM

---

Quote from: Rachael on February 25, 2008, 02:00:40 PM
i might go to that festival one year for lols.
see what all the fuss is.
R >:D

Try the forums.

There is AmazonHeart (aka Heart, from The Margins / Womensspace), AmazonTrader,  wildwomyn, dwb amongst others who are anti-trans. They say they are radfems, but hopefully they only represent a small faction of it. They have others who post sometimes one-time posting or who post a while and don't stay.

On 'our side', there is me (Schala), Brenda, bintalshamsa, cicely and a handful of others.

I mostly enter discussions that are there to other us as non-persons. Many posters speak of trans*people not being women, not being men, being third-gender, not deserving to be called women except as a way to be polite - in other words if they were 'honest' they'd call a MtF a man.

i dont care for joining some anti trans, trans slanging match, ive seen similar forum invasions go horridly wrong. and dont want any part thanks.
R >:D

Quote from: Schala on February 25, 2008, 01:59:29 PMMichigan's Womyn Music Festival forums

The most flaming vitriolic anti-trans forum on the net, that isn't religious-based.

The odd thing about that is: The worst flaming vitriol by far over there is perpetrated by a trans woman, someone who clearly has some serious self-hatred projection issues. She has gone by several names there (e.g. Rainsong), having been banned several times by the transphobic Festies for whom even she is way too extreme in her insane ->-bleeped-<--hatred. She of course denies that she's trans. She just was raised male and used to have a male body... It's a sad case, really. She needs help.

i dont see whats wrong with that view ;)
i mean, in a transwomans mind, shes never been male, just female. so she was raised in a male body as a male.... what is trans about a woman now in a womans body?

agreed transphobia is bloody rich coming from her...
R >:D

maybe she's not trans at all and just can't figure it out on her own, maybe she is IS or androgyne and just can't figure it out and needs someone to push her in the right direction.......


Mickie

nope, she was born a guy, and wont identify as trans. although i admit i hold a similar view, im not a transsexual, iim a girl, i just transitioned to one. does that make me as big an arse as her? dunno. but its not that point thats the main contention, its the fact that thier being transphobic, and as they transitioned (FACT) its a bit hypocritical.
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 26, 2008, 01:17:22 PMim not a transsexual, iim a girl, i just transitioned to one.

Uh huh. So how do you define the term "transsexual"?

Quote from: Hypatia on February 26, 2008, 12:24:34 PM
She just was raised male and used to have a male body... It's a sad case, really. She needs help.

She denies a bit more than that, Hypatia. She denies she was raised male back in the 1950s.

Says she was always raised as a girl.

I spoz it might be true, but I rather have my doubts.

N~

Quote from: Hypatia on February 26, 2008, 02:00:55 PM

Quote from: Rachael on February 26, 2008, 01:17:22 PMim not a transsexual, iim a girl, i just transitioned to one.

Uh huh. So how do you define the term "transsexual"?

Just had a deja vu moment!  ;D

Quote from: Nichole on February 26, 2008, 03:13:46 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on February 26, 2008, 12:24:34 PM
She just was raised male and used to have a male body... It's a sad case, really. She needs help.

She denies a bit more than that, Hypatia. She denies she was raised male back in the 1950s.

Says she was always raised as a girl.

I spoz it might be true, but I rather have my doubts.

N~

I spoke to someone who told me she had been treated as a girl by everyone from 1955 to 1961...then it all went down to hell (7 years old to 13 years old). I take her at her word. She's a TG fiction author, it definitely has a flavor of the 50-60s in her stories, and most is rather plausible.

As for Rainsong, she's not against early transitioners, but is against older ones, and is spotted almost instantly with references such as "husbands and fathers". She argues from a social constructionist stance and says that anyone who lived 40-some years as male can't ever 'undo' it. I don't think it stands to reason as much as she thinks it does.

Her argument is flawed because maybe you've never really "lived as a man",
I certainly didn't. One girlfriend in 40 years is certainly not a typical male
and I've got plenty of non male moments around. In fact I felt
I belonged to no gender male or female all my life till transition.

Quote from: Keira on February 26, 2008, 05:06:34 PM

Her argument is flawed because maybe you've never really "lived as a man",
I certainly didn't. One girlfriend in 40 years is certainly not a typical male
and I've got plenty of non male moments around. In fact I felt
I belonged to no gender male or female all my life till transition.

I feel this way too Keira. 

Quote from: Keira on February 26, 2008, 05:06:34 PM

Her argument is flawed because maybe you've never really "lived as a man",
I certainly didn't. One girlfriend in 40 years is certainly not a typical male
and I've got plenty of non male moments around. In fact I felt
I belonged to no gender male or female all my life till transition.

Your old male pre - transition short haired photographs you posted in other thread would suggest otherwise and you looked fairly standard male to me in those........

looked like, and lived like, arnt the same thing....
there are certain things one must do to 'live like a man or woman'
looking like one helps, but isnt part of that.
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 27, 2008, 02:48:01 AM
looked like, and lived like, arnt the same thing....
there are certain things one must do to 'live like a man or woman'
looking like one helps, but isnt part of that.
R >:D

I see...so a man living as a man is not really a man..... ???

I personally didn't ever want to do that and preferrred to look and dress feminine and have long hair from about the age of 12 onwards .....maybe I was trying to be a man?

Having short hair doesn't mean your a man, or
your living your life as a man.
Some people said I looked like a butch lesbian prior to
transition.
In my 20's people didn't know what sex I was (even If I measured 6 foot).

I had long hair, mid back from 21-30, and took HRT by forging prescriptions and stealing meds for 6 years in my 20's. Had breasts from 21 onward even though I was always slim.

Anyway,
You confound looking like man with living as a man.
When your diagnosed as having no defined identity (by a team
of psychologists, in your 20's) I'm guessing you can't
say your a man or women.

If your having no success in what defines a man, well your
not living successfully as a man. That you've got a men's
body is incidental and didn't care much for putting it
in valor. Dressed like crap even though I've always
had a good body since I loved individial sports, especially
cycling  (so I had
a good body for functional reasons rather than
for the look).

Quote from: Keira on February 27, 2008, 03:35:14 AM
Having short hair doesn't mean your a man, or
your living your life as a man.
Some people said I looked like a butch lesbian prior to
transition.

I was just going by the picture's of you I saw in the 'before and after' thread where to me you looked like a regular guy in those early pics.....I don't think they would confuse anyone about your gender..

I agree with you about long hair not necessarily being feminine but that wasn't my point..

well she did say in her 20s ;)
R >:D

Quote from: Berliegh on February 27, 2008, 05:01:09 AM

Quote from: Keira on February 27, 2008, 03:35:14 AM
Having short hair doesn't mean your a man, or
your living your life as a man.
Some people said I looked like a butch lesbian prior to
transition.

I was just going by the picture's of you I saw in the 'before and after' thread where to me you looked like a regular guy in those early pics.....I don't think they would confuse anyone about your gender..

I agree with you about long hair not necessarily being feminine but that wasn't my point..

What is your point Berleigh?  I am at a loss as to some of your comments.

We're talking about living as a man.
Looking like a man doesn't mean your living successfully as a man.
How did you live before transition, as a man, a women, a something else.

For most of my 20's looked like something else, not male or female.

The photos you saw were at almost 39 and since I was
able to pass near 100% at 4 months HRT and at 80% by
2 month (I was entering women's restroom by month 2-3),
I must have been pretty ambiguous even at that age hey.
With longer hair and not as monstruously big clothing, I probably
would have passed 50% of the time even pre HRT. I had
electrolysis 10 years earlier and have a very small frame which
undoubtably helps.

But, even if I looked like Clooney, still didn't mean I would
be successfull as a man. Looks has nothing to do with
living a man's life instead of just threading water and
surviving.

berleigh likes to be the only girl who looked like one pretransition.... woe betide you if you try and look feminine too!
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 28, 2008, 04:09:10 AM
berleigh likes to be the only girl who looked like one pretransition.... woe betide you if you try and look feminine too!
R >:D

That's not true at all. I know one or two people who were extreamely female looking pre - transition. Blew the whasit out of me..... ;)

This discussion has taken a questionable turn. Rainsong's hangup is about people who have lived a life in two genders (to borrow Jennifer Finney Boylan's phrase). In her worldview, it's extremely evil to cross the gender boundary which is why she fights so hard to claim she was raised female, not very convincingly. I hope no one here is endorsing that belief. Rainsong is a sick individual and I would not want to lend her ravings any validity. We have all had to cross that boundary whether we admit it or not.

true... live as a male? sure i did for 19 years...
were one? nah
R >:D

Quote from: Hypatia on February 28, 2008, 09:28:51 AM
This discussion has taken a questionable turn. Rainsong's hangup is about people who have lived a life in two genders (to borrow Jennifer Finney Boylan's phrase). In her worldview, it's extremely evil to cross the gender boundary which is why she fights so hard to claim she was raised female, not very convincingly. I hope no one here is endorsing that belief. Rainsong is a sick individual and I would not want to lend her ravings any validity. We have all had to cross that boundary whether we admit it or not.

I agree Hypatia....but also some of us had a very small boundary to cross...

not all of us spent a life as a male...
not all married, not all fathered children, not everyone had sex with girls, or were 'heterosexual males'
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 29, 2008, 05:57:12 AM
not all of us spent a life as a male...
not all married, not all fathered children, not everyone had sex with girls, or were 'heterosexual males'
R >:D

That was my point Rachael...

Only times ive ever: had sex, fallen in love, dated, broken up: have all been as a woman, with a man... (never did it before)
some bloody life as a man then!
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on February 29, 2008, 05:57:12 AM
not all of us spent a life as a male...
not all married, not all fathered children, not everyone had sex with girls, or were 'heterosexual males'
R >:D

Which is entirely beside the point. Unless your name is Blanchard or Bailey.

i disagree.... a lot of people here are deciding there is such thing (disconected from being physically male) that one may live a male life, and one may not....
i think those are vital parts of living a 'male' life. Not everyone does that, and other things, proving there is such thing as growing up male without living a male life....

if one owns a formula 1 car. and only uses it to go to the shops in 30 zones for the groceries... is one a racing driver?
R >:D

Can we stop the "I'm more authentic than you" crap please?

Quote from: Beyond on March 01, 2008, 05:34:06 AM
Can we stop the "I'm more authentic than you" crap please?

That seems like very good advice.

WE are as authentic as we allow ourselves to be. If it requires a comparison to others on a consistent basis, then I think that perhaps the confidence becomes a matter of talk and not an active part of one's life.

It matters not the way one's picture looks in comparison to others: that tends to be entirely subjective depending on one's mood, time of day and personal preferences anyway.

It matters not what life experiences, or lack thereof, one has had. What is known by any of us is simply what one knows: about herself and about others.

No one gets extra points for 'being ahead' simply because individual lives don't work that way. NO one has the same set of life-experiences that another has. Are Bill Gates, Paul Allen or Steve Jobs 'better' than other men simply because they have more money readily available to themselves than do other men?

Are Claudia Schiffer, Kiera Knightly or Candis Cane 'better' than other women, or more female than other women, because they look better to some than do other women?

If one's confidence and value are always based on 'how I compare myself to everyone else in the category I randomly chose' I suggest that confidence and value are actually nil for that person.

There are no yardsticks that measure how meaningful and valid a human being is in comparison to another human being.

So, it would be nice to stop making that activity a habit. And I suspect that whomever that admonishment I wrote above applies to will understand it applies to them. So, whomever it applies to: please stop.

Nichole

Quote from: Beyond on March 01, 2008, 05:34:06 AM
Can we stop the "I'm more authentic than you" crap please?

The forum would be quite quiet without it...
R >:D

Let's give it a go and see, shall we?

N~

Quote from: Rachael on March 01, 2008, 07:17:19 AM
The forum would be quite quiet without it...
R >:D

I'm sure we could find some other things to talk about  ;)

Z

like toilets?
R >:D

Why don't you pick, Rachael? Think of something besides comparisons that interests you and you think others might be interested in and post it.

N~

Quote from: Rachael on March 01, 2008, 09:30:59 AM
like toilets?
R >:D

Yes, I was going to ask what sex and toilets have to do with one another, but I just didn't want to go there.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Rachael on March 01, 2008, 03:45:00 AM
i disagree.... a lot of people here are deciding there is such thing (disconected from being physically male) that one may live a male life, and one may not....

?what do you mean I think it is entirely possible to live a male life, but still be a transsexual...  Alot of people do it.. You call em Crossdressers....  The ones that choose to incorporate it into thier lives partially refer to theselves as Androgynes...Androids,,um I dunno.

Quotei think those are vital parts of living a 'male' life. Not everyone does that, and other things, proving there is such thing as growing up male without living a male life....

if one owns a formula 1 car. and only uses it to go to the shops in 30 zones for the groceries... is one a racing driver?
R >:D

YES! I think they can, because its not about the car you drive, its how you drive to the shops in 30 zones for grocieries...


Posted on: March 01, 2008, 03:18:30 PM

---

Ah yes back to subject, TOLIETS??? hmmm...
I dunno I think they are fine, would be cool though to get a Legal piece of paper to be there,

I just dont think the therapist letter cuts it,,, legally...

I dont get retro fitting them, or new family restrooms, or special segregated anyplaces....

I just wannta letter that states I can be there legally whenever I need, any female restroom coast to coast..

uh, a crossdresser is NOT a transsexual 'incorporating' being female into thier male life.
That is baloney ;)
R :police:

Alot of people cannot transistion for many years, and they crossdress, take hormones, and deal with it, till they can transition..

But technically That would make them a crossdresser that is becoming a transexual.

I dont think thats baloney, just labels...


Although I can see it from your angle too, but my argument is that people dont just understand and deal with it in a flash of time, it takes years to come to terms with this....for some at least;

Think it's about time for Nero to jump in...

No, we don't need holier than thous, more authentic than thous, and comparison between us. We're all trans, it doesn't matter but a valid point was brought up that one can live in a male body, be seen as male, and STILL not live a male life.

I never lived a female's life. I always conducted myself as a male. Everything I did, I did in the manner of a boy and later a man.
I ate, slept, fought, wrote, worked, walked, talked, had sex as a man (and no, a dick or even a strap-on is not required to have sex as a man). It didn't matter that I looked like a girl. It doesn't mean I actually LIVED as one.

Hmmm....I think labeling belongs to each individual and even though some people are very happy with the prefix TRANS, I am NOT anymore.  Now with this statement I am not demeaning anyone who identifies as "trans", but in my case, the term "trans" is beginning to sound rather offensive really; in other words, it is like when you hear your "previous name" after so many years into transition.  I am a woman; I have always been a woman, and I WANT to be labeled as such.

tink :icon_chick:

I know the feeling, Tink. I certainly don't want to identify as "trans," meaning to hold it up as a banner or as the definition of who I am in this world, who I can be. I identify as just a woman. I also acknowledge the fact that trans is how I got here, and nothing will ever change that. But I do want so much to put it behind me and move on. Like the scars I've gotten from various injuries or surgeries over the years. Those scars remain in my flesh, but I've stopped feeling the pain-- and of course I do not "identify" as a scarred woman. The scars do not define who I can be, they're as incidental to who I am as my eye color. I don't "identify" as a brown-eyed girl, regardless of how much I like the song by Van Morrison. I'm just a girl. I don't see any point in taking such incidental features as my identity. They're not the core of who I am. Same goes for trans.

i agree with tink & hypatia.  i'm not trans-anything either.  you must be wondering why the transsexual label is inflammatory, yes?

because....

QuoteIn any case, transsexualism is a badly defined term. To use transsexual as a noun is dehumanising, leaches people with with this syndrome of their personality, and makes it easy for the bigoted to think of them as being "other", "weird", and "perverted". People with this syndrome have a particular medical condition, it is not the basis and ground of their identity, and we should not see them as "laboratory specimens" or "circus freaks".


The adjectival use is hardly better. People all too easily construe "transsexual man" or "transsexual woman" as "false man" or "impostor woman". Many are confused because of this term as to the proper term to call a person with this condition. They wonder whether they should address them as "man" or "woman". This is the source of such vile constructions as "she-male and "he-she".

After a childhood spent in the wrong social gender, and being in much confusion consequently, a person with this condition is most in need of consonance in their psychophysical identity. The driving need in one's life becomes the achievement of congruence between neurological gender and anatomical reality. At the same time, there is a desire to leave all sexual ambiguities behind, to have wholeness in the gestalt of body, soul, and mind.


It is diabolically cruel to affix the label of "transsexual" onto a person for the rest of their life. They do not engage themselves in a life-long journey between the sexes; it is only a temporary stage on the way to total personal congruency. This usage of transsexual clearly suggests and implies that the person involved is never a true man or woman, but rather a pariah and on a perpetual pilgrimage between the sexes.


Whenever the term "transsexual man" or "transsexual woman" is used, the strong implication is that they are not truly men or women. It matters not if the person involved is at peace because they have finally reached congruence or if their personal appearance is well within the bounds of their sex.


This term robs the person with this syndrome of full completion, it steals the peace of congruence, and it smirkily informs one that no matter how much one tries, you shall never be allowed to end the perpetual wandering of transsexuality. The continual accusations never give you rest, and you shall never be finally safe at home, in concord and harmony.


This is ironic, because we live in an age where we can correct the physical anomalies completely. This is cruel because the time of transition is only a year or two at most, but as long as one is a "transsexual", many shall never allow you to reach the far shore.


You must stay anchored out in the harbour, and only hear the laughter and joy of others ashore in the city. You must wear a placard about your neck proclaiming your status, ring a bell loudly, and shout, "Leper, Leper! Unclean, unclean"! as you make your way amongst the crowd.


The term transsexual comes from two Latin roots. "Trans" is a prefix that means through, across, beyond, or to change. "Sexual" is a verb that comes from the Latin sexualis, which means anything associated with sex or the sexes. We can see where the original derivation of the word came from. It referred to someone who was in the process of moving between the two sexes.


It is unfair to burden people permanently with labels that are no longer appropriate or applicable once changes are made, obstacles are overcome, surgery is finished, and they have taken their place in society in their proper gender. If you must give a classification, let me suggest two: "man" and "woman". Full stop.

As far as TS is concerned I concur with the past three posters. As far as toilets are concerned if someone wishes to be licensed to use the loo ... well, I'd suggest checking with the local constabulary and seeing if they will give you a 'bathroom pass.'

I also find that I am terribly tired of this thread in general and since I am the 'originator' I have decided to be the 'terminator' as well.

Good night, girls.