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A new article at NatGeo today speculates about life or its absence on Mars, both present and past, and with the recent discovery of a dwarf version of our own solar system (some time last week), the prospects of finding planets that can support carbon-based life like us gets more and more realistic.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080217-mars-life.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080217-mars-life.html)

So, is there or isn't there, and what makes you say that?

Any life we find will probably be very simple. 

The following opinion is based on a sample size of 1 - our Earth.  It also includes bits that I learned from reading Rare Earth.  This book expands the equations used by Carl Sagan, et. al, in the 1960's that talk about life on other worlds.

The bottom line is, using these equations and being optimistic with the assumptions, I came up with about 2 million worlds in our galaxy that may have complex life.  Being very pessimistic, I came up with just under 200.  There are approximately 500 billion stars in our galaxy.  Poor odds no matter how you look at it.

I think we will find space to be very lonely...

Chaunte

+++

I wish the galaxy was like that in Star Trek or Star Wars - a new civilazation to be found in just about every star system.  However, I have serious reservations.

We have found traces and microfossils of primitive life.  These bits of evidence go back about 3.7 billion years - right after the Great Bombardment that scared both the Earth and Moon. 

We didn't have a free oxygen atmosphere until about a billion years ago.  That gives us about 22% of Earth's history with a breathable atmosphere.

Sexual reproduction began about 700 million years ago.

And the Pharazoic, our present Eon which includes fossils with hard-parts (shells & bones) didn't start until 544 million years ago.

That makes our planet pretty devoid of life for about 88.2% of Earth's history, assuming a planetary age of 4.6 billion years.

Let's add technology into the calculation.

Our branch off of the evolutionary tree goes back approximately 1.6 million years.  That would be 0.034% of Earth's history.  (I know that we can go further back, but this branch is a direct lead to us - Homosapien Sapien.)

Our Western Civilization can be traced back about 8000 years, really starting with the flooding and creation of the Black Sea about 5600 BC.  That is about 0.00017% of Earth's geologic history.  (In Search of Noah's Flood - by Pitman & Ryan)

Lastly - the technology to hear signals from another world has only been around since the early 1960's.  That's approximately 0.6% of Western Civilization's history & 0.000001% of Earth's geologic history.

Given all this, and humanity's propensity for building the bigger & better bomb, is a a technologically advanced civilization doomed from the start?  To steal a line from the remake of the movie On The Beach, "It took humanity four and a half billion years to unlock the secrets of the universe.  And what do we do with it?  We blow ourselves up!"

I'd say yes.. just by the laws of probability... the universe is -so big-  that Earth can't possibly be the only planet with life.

In the movie Contact, the dad says to young Ellie "if there were no life up there, it'd be a lot of waste of sky"

I didn't want to believe this before, but it does make sense.  Why should we be the "lucky" ones to be the only intelligent species in the entire universe?

tink :icon_chick:

I'm sure the universe is far more complex than we can even imagine.  More likely beyond what we can imagine.

Quote from: Alison on February 18, 2008, 05:15:04 PM
I'd say yes.. just by the laws of probability... the universe is -so big-  that Earth can't possibly be the only planet with life.

Life? - yes.

Multicelled life beyond a hydra? - not as much.

Intelligent life with technology? - much more rare

Quote from: Tink on February 18, 2008, 06:43:41 PM
In the movie Contact, the dad says to young Ellie "if there were no life up there, it'd be a lot of waste of sky"

I didn't want to believe this before, but it does make sense.  Why should we be the "lucky" ones to be the only intelligent species in the entire universe?

tink :icon_chick:

I'm not saying that we are the only ones out there.  But we may have to look for a while...

Chaunte

Intelligent life is hard enough to find on this planet.

Quote from: tekla on February 18, 2008, 11:06:15 PM
Intelligent life is hard enough to find on this planet.

Lmao, I agree with you there :-P

As for life on other planets, there is sure to be life out there somewhere. But its so far away we may never reach it unless we can colonize other planets to generate life, then maybe in a few hundred trillion years. At least according to Einstein we can not travel faster then the speed of light, and even at this speed we can not reach the next star within our lifetime. Ofcourse people thought we couldn't go faster then the speed of sound either. There is just so much we don't know, and we will likely be long gone from this world before we can travel to other stars. But who knows. I had a dream once that we came from Mars, but the planet was dying because it was struck by what is now its moon, well atleast by one of them... so then we came to earth. But the environment on the earth was different and many died and we lost our technology. I have weird dreams LOL

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 19, 2008, 02:52:36 AM
I had a dream once that we came from Mars, but the planet was dying because it was struck by what is now its moon, well atleast by one of them... so then we came to earth. But the environment on the earth was different and many died and we lost our technology. I have weird dreams LOL

As it happens, that's rather a strongly contended theory in some (notably less mainstream :icon_suspicious: ) circles - Mars was definitely struck by something HUGE at some point in its past, possibly fairly recently, as evidenced by the striking difference between the northern and southern hemispheres - the North is notably newer, plains flattened by lava flows, while the South consists of highlands and canyons and stuff that indicate a much older geography. The theory is that Mars was at one time struck by a huge meteor or something that tore the northern crust away, leaving the mantle exposed to solidify into a new layer.

This webpage has a pretty interesting picture on it
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/mars/moons.html

There is no doubt that mars has been struck, as with every other planet in the solar system, but it does make you wonder what impact it had on the planet, and what could of been there and what is not there now. I wouldn't mind going there to find out :-D

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 19, 2008, 04:46:12 AM
I wouldn't mind going there to find out :-D

~Rachel~

Dibs on the first trip! Going to Mars is one of my biggest dreams.

Dibs on the first trip! Going to Mars is one of my biggest dreams.
[/quote]

Me and you both, I cant imagine the view... I would love to see it. I have always been the exploring type. I love to see new places, as a kid I would go out and just pick a direction and take off. We need more then one person to go to Mars so lets both go :-D

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 19, 2008, 05:10:24 AM
Me and you both, I cant imagine the view... I would love to see it. I have always been the exploring type. I love to see new places, as a kid I would go out and just pick a direction and take off. We need more then one person to go to Mars so lets both go :-D

~Rachel~

Cool beans. But I get to drive.  :P

As long as you don't crash into the moon on the way out or put it in reverse and run into Venus I am ok with it. Besides... I am like a puppy I want to look out the window :-D

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 19, 2008, 05:34:56 AM
As long as you don't crash into the moon on the way out or put it in reverse and run into Venus I am ok with it. Besides... I am like a puppy I want to look out the window :-D

~Rachel~

LOL! Either detour might be interesting. I can just imagine fire-breathing dragons evolving under those methane clouds on Venus...

And now I am getting silly.

Maybe our ancestors have been to Venus and thats where we get the legends of Dragons from. Hmmm... we could just start forming our own theories, this is all starting to make sense LoL

~Rachel~

The question of if there is life in other places in the universe is different from the issue of our being able to reach it.  One is probability, the other an issue of  technology.

Well I did have this idea of shooting people out of cannons 30 miles long but NASA didn't like it hehe

~Rachel~

Funny, I have the same idea, but I never ran it past NASA, I want it to be a surprise to those I chose to do it.  BTW, no net.

LoL, that sounds like even more fun... I will help set it up and look for victims I mean volunteers LoL
*yes I know I am looney*

~Rachel~

The BBC has a DVD out called Voyage To The Planets.  This is an imaginary grand tour based on science facts.  They go to Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto.  I plan on showing it to my students a little later in the school year.

JPL just recently announced that any oceans on Mars would have been incredibly salty - MUCH saltier than our present oceans.  According to JPL, there are only a handful of terrestrial lifeforms that could have survived in that sea.

As I recall, Mars was struck by an asteroid about 20km across about 2 to 2.5 billion years.  The energy of this impact could have vaporized any remaining oceans.  As perspective, a 10km asteroid impact on Earth is generally regarded as a sterilization even - one that would kill off all life on our planet.

Chaunte

According to JPL, there are only a handful of terrestrial lifeforms that could have survived in that sea.

As far as we know, it only takes one lifeform to start the process.  And, JPL assumes that all lifeforms are based on the terrestrial lifeforms of earth, as that is all they (we) know of.  But does life have to be carbon based?  No one is sure.

Quote from: tekla on February 22, 2008, 08:39:13 AM
But does life have to be carbon based?  No one is sure.

Absolutely - we seem to be hell-bent on creating silicon-based life.

There was a show on Discovery a few years ago that featured a different hypothetical planet every week with different values for gravity and stuff, different sun and atmosphere etc. Then they would get all these xeno-biologists and people to come up with an evolutionary model ... then they made a wildlife "documentary" about it using CGI, ala David Attenborough. Now THAT was COOL.

The universe is much to vast to have us as the only life form. 

We really don't know enough to say what life is or is not. Who knows what other types of life besides carbon based there could be, or maybe there isnt any other type. And who knows what type of organs other beings might evolve to survive on other planets, such as planets where we could not. Too bad I most likely wont be around long enough to find some of these answers.

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 23, 2008, 05:03:09 PM
We really don't know enough to say what life is or is not. Who knows what other types of life besides carbon based there could be, or maybe there isnt any other type.

Who's to say they'll even be matter-based at all... can you imagine an conscious wave-form or an intelligent beam of light... whole nebulae that act like gigantic organisms... planets and galaxies as alive as we are.

It's not only possible, it's entirely probable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)

(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/62_24_02_08_9_59_49.JPG)

M104

Quote from: lisagurl on February 24, 2008, 10:02:04 AM
M104

that is SUCH a cool pic. Thanks for posting it.

If you go to the NASA site, and the JPL site you can get some pretty mindblowing stuff.

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/index.html

Thanks Tekla. Space is cooooooooooooool...

Sometimes I wonder if we should or should not be exploring the wonders of space. Granted in the distant future we will have to move on when our sun dies off, or create a new one if at all possible. Who is to say we wont piss some aliens off sending out our junk into their space or something of the sort. Can be a scary thought if they are war like as we are.

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 25, 2008, 12:32:05 AM
Sometimes I wonder if we should or should not be exploring the wonders of space. Granted in the distant future we will have to move on when our sun dies off, or create a new one if at all possible. Who is to say we wont piss some aliens off sending out our junk into their space or something of the sort. Can be a scary thought if they are war like as we are.

Or cause mass-extinctions because we import our illnesses onto planets that have no immunity or defense against them...

Who is to say we wont piss some aliens off

Oh, we're humans, its a given.

Quote from: tekla on February 25, 2008, 01:26:19 AM
Who is to say we wont piss some aliens off

Oh, we're humans, its a given.

LoL, good point. If we havnt already pissed them off :-D

~Rachel~

Amino acids, the basic building blocks of life, are created by stars when they go supernova.  Our world and everything in it is built from the matter from an extinct star.

As it turns out, these little aminos are everywhere.  Life is tenacious.  I believe it will grab hold and develop in some of the harshest environments.

As for finding intelligent life in our societies short lifespan..... I doubt it.  We are listening, but unless they have a transmitter actually pointed at us in some way, we won't hear it.  Neither will they hear us.  Our transmissions dissipate long before they reach other stars.

As for going to Mars, I'll let anyone in line in front of me.  I'd rather go to the Moon. There's a much better chance of actually coming back!

Cindi

Life is being found here on earth where it was believed that life could not exist, in the antarctic, deep within the mantle, and places within the oceans. I would love to see what they find on Europa if it ever happens in my lifetime.

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 25, 2008, 02:37:36 AM
I would love to see what they find on Europa if it ever happens in my lifetime.

It'll happen in our lifetimes unless we blow ourselves up first. Technology is way further ahead than most people realise - check out some of the science and tech shows here on youtube about transhumanism and machine intelligence and robotics and nanotech and stuff. Scarily amazing!

Check out my favourites at youtube for a great introduction to Transhumanism:

http://www.youtube.com/user/LadyAmarant (http://www.youtube.com/user/LadyAmarant)

Quote from: lady amarant on February 25, 2008, 02:49:05 AM

Quote from: drkprincess on February 25, 2008, 02:37:36 AM
I would love to see what they find on Europa if it ever happens in my lifetime.

It'll happen in our lifetimes unless we blow ourselves up first. Technology is way further ahead than most people realise - check out some of the science and tech shows here on youtube about transhumanism and machine intelligence and robotics and nanotech and stuff. Scarily amazing!

Check out my favourites at youtube for a great introduction to Transhumanism:

http://www.youtube.com/user/LadyAmarant (http://www.youtube.com/user/LadyAmarant)

Maybe but there are a few problems presented before us. While we do have the technology to send a probe, there is a matter of conducting a survey under the ice of Europa without contaminating the life there. There are tests being done  in the antarctic for this, there has also been a large lake discovered under the antarctic ice. And there could be prehistoric life still living there. There is also the problem with getting through the ice, which is believed to be no less then 3 miles thick. A big task.

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 25, 2008, 03:05:04 AM
Maybe but there are a few problems presented before us. While we do have the technology to send a probe, there is a matter of conducting a survey under the ice of Europa without contaminating the life there. There are tests being done  in the antarctic for this, there has also been a large lake discovered under the antarctic ice. And there could be prehistoric life still living there. There is also the problem with getting through the ice, which is believed to be no less then 3 miles thick. A big task.

Good point Rachel, but ultimately it becomes a question of ethics as opposed to technical ability, and we all know what happens when humanity considers ethical questions...

Somewhere along the line, a big corporation (or China) will send a probe, if only to get there first so they can claim mining rights.

Quote from: lady amarant on February 25, 2008, 03:07:25 AM

Quote from: drkprincess on February 25, 2008, 03:05:04 AM
Maybe but there are a few problems presented before us. While we do have the technology to send a probe, there is a matter of conducting a survey under the ice of Europa without contaminating the life there. There are tests being done  in the antarctic for this, there has also been a large lake discovered under the antarctic ice. And there could be prehistoric life still living there. There is also the problem with getting through the ice, which is believed to be no less then 3 miles thick. A big task.

Good point Rachel, but ultimately it becomes a question of ethics as opposed to technical ability, and we all know what happens when humanity considers ethical questions...

Somewhere along the line, a big corporation (or China) will send a probe, if only to get there first so they can claim mining rights.

No kidding, lets hope they dont find gold or something... then you can bet ethics will be thrown out the window. Wal-Mart will be the first to go... we will have to prepare a rocket to knock them into Io or something LoL

~Rachel~

Mars report
The atmosphere is mostly composed of C02 some water ice crystals and a trace of methane gas in different places coming from the surface. This trace amount of methane gas could be a good indication that there is or was recently living organisms down on the surface or seeping up through the ground.

The entire planet shows some very promising indications of once having contained large bodies of water in different places. There are also some verry promissing traces of what use to be many large river deltas that spill out in alluvial fans in different areas as they carve their way across the Martian  surface.

NASA themselves have admitted that much of the missing water that might have in time was mostly covered by sand and dust, the sand and dust acting quite effectively as an insulator that keeps the ice from sublimating into the atmosphere. There have also been what appears to be glaciers that can still be sited by the HIRISE probe on different areas of Mars, especially on the sides and bottom of large impact craters. It has been estimated that the period all this water was in fluid form and flowed freely everywhere on the planet's surface was approximately about 30,000,000 years ago

Now it is being said that Mars is undergoing global warming. How far this will continue and if it does and how long will it take for it to return to it's original state 30,000,000 years ago.  As for a large asteroid striking Mars around the time that water in it's fluid form is quite possible. Next time you look at photos of Mars take a close look at Valles Marineris. To me it appears to be that a very large object like a asteroid hit Mars with a glancing blow then continuing to gouge the surface which creating a very large long trench that is today known as Valles Marineris. What was left of the mass of the comet then glanced up and away from Mars back into space.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2FmarsupdateFS3-1.gif&hash=a6fcbe33da78b43245171fcf48dba8e498c06c4c)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fcrater_ice_3d-1.jpg&hash=2f9618abb3b23df91d6de0785ee582a6a265c5cf)

Cindy   

I don't doubt that Mars could of been very earth like, or that it might even have life. I have been wondering just how much water there really is on Mars. As far as methane being a sign of life I am not sure about. While here on earth animals do produce methane, I don't believe thats the only source. There is a moon out there, I believe it is one of Uranus's moons.... (I am not 100 percent sure on that I would have to research it). Anyhow, it is said that this moon has vast lakes of methane... wait a sec was it methane... I will get back to this I have to research now LoL

~Rachel~



Posted on: February 25, 2008, 04:38:57 AM

---

Ok, I was somewhat on it.. the moon is Saturn's moon Titan. And it does have alot of methane in the atmosphere. But they believe there to be a large liquid mass on the surface to also be methane. And here is an article on it http://www.astrobio.net/news/article2070.html
The point I was getting at is that I don't see how there could be that much methane produced from organic matter such as we have here on earth. While I don't rule out that maybe there could be lifeforms that produce it and some live off it, maybe it cycles like water does here. But I also don't rule out another source. What this source is im not sure. But as for small amounts I do believe that it could show life on mars, but maybe it could be something else as well.

~Rachel~

Quote from: lady amarant on February 25, 2008, 03:07:25 AM
Somewhere along the line, a big corporation (or China) will send a probe, if only to get there first so they can claim mining rights.

i don't know how to agree with you on this point without sounding all depressing and stuff. but i do agree. what other model does one have to work from? all the money being spent on space exploration, meanwhile, we're turning our own little beautiful oasis of a planet into a polluted, stinking wasteland, causing widespread extinctions, and millions of people worldwide don't even have clean drinking water. how sick is that? how is this not what we'll do to other planets?  :-\

aw crap. now i'm all depressed and stuff.

-ellie

Quote from: ell on February 25, 2008, 12:30:04 PM
aw crap. now i'm all depressed and stuff.

Welcome to the dark side.

We have cookies on the dark side :-D

~Rachel~

Hi Lady Amarant. *Welcome to the dark side*. "Hee, hee ,hee" please do step into my coach, the fairy godmother said Cindy. Neat, got to remember that one.

Hi, Ell, honey, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  The entire universe plays this constant balancing act of both the dark and the light; male and female energy; the sacred feminine and the, Alpha and the Omega.  Add the darkness and light; the ocean tides and the rhythm of nature. 

How could one know what the light is unless they have also experienced darkness?  Every day as we move along these opposing energies, as our consciousness awakens, the more the light moves in and the darkness away, and like little children we enjoy immensely the new learnings and knowings that this ever expanding light brings us.

Depressing? No, hun, not at all. Every day is a time of discovery and learning and new experiences and it may excite me like a little kid with a new toy or yes, I can be momentarily depressed until my inquisitive mind draws me out of the dark to go play with my new friend, imagination.

As for water, or more precisely water ice, can be found not just on Mars but almost anywhere within this solar system. You will find ice in yes, *even on our moon, on asteroids, comets and on various moons orbiting around Jupiter and Saturn* and maybe even on the more distant outward planets.

Point being   that water is not so much of a rare element as it was once previously thought to be. It exists in quite an abundance everywhere in our solar system.

Cindy

Comets have water in them, this is what creates the tail that we as the water melts and leaves a trail.

~Rachel~

Quote from: cindybc on February 25, 2008, 10:07:54 PM
Hi Lady Amarant. *Welcome to the dark side*. "Hee, hee ,hee" please do step into my coach, the fairy godmother said Cindy. Neat, got to remember that one.

Hi, Ell, honey, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  The entire universe plays this constant balancing act of both the dark and the light; male and female energy; the sacred feminine and the, Alpha and the Omega.  Add the darkness and light; the ocean tides and the rhythm of nature. 

How could one know what the light is unless they have also experienced darkness?  Every day as we move along these opposing energies, as our consciousness awakens, the more the light moves in and the darkness away, and like little children we enjoy immensely the new learnings and knowings that this ever expanding light brings us.

Depressing? No, hun, not at all. Every day is a time of discovery and learning and new experiences and it may excite me like a little kid with a new toy or yes, I can be momentarily depressed until my inquisitive mind draws me out of the dark to go play with my new friend, imagination.
Cindy

Thank you, Cindy. i guess it's just that 'the Dark Side' seems to totally eat my head sometimes.

-ellie

Hi Ell hon I wish I could hold you in my arms and comfort and protect you from the boogie men that inhabit the darkness. I will send prayer and positive energy to enshroud you and keep you warm and safe from the boogie men.

Cindy

The dark side can get really dark. Especially on Mondays. Tuesday is usually better though, plus you get to look forward to cool Force powers those wussy goody-goody Jedi aren't allowed to use.

>:D 

Do we get double sided light sabers too? I want pink!! *giggles* Or better yet, black so you can sneak up on people in the dark :-D

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 26, 2008, 04:43:45 PM
Do we get double sided light sabers too? I want pink!! *giggles* Or better yet, black so you can sneak up on people in the dark :-D

~Rachel~

A pair of green ones! Green is pretty.

We are SUCH geeks, you and I... ;)

A pink one for me and an invisibility cloak for you!

I stand guard as the sentry of light atop the mountain overlooking the valley below.  Carefully I scrutinize the many making their way wearily through the narrow passageway between the mountains that stand like like dark sentinels to either side of the valley.

I, the Lady of Light stand firmly and regally upon the granite beneath my feet, with my light sword held up, at the ready, in my right hand. I stand, watching every movement of my people as they migrate from the valley into the narrow mountain pass.

Jeez, I'm getting rusty at writing.

Cindy 

Quote from: cindybc on February 28, 2008, 12:05:30 AM
Jeez, I'm getting rusty at writing.

Cindy 

Quite enjoyed that, actually!

Hey! Im not a geek, ok maybe alittle :-P
All I need is a robotic back now.

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 28, 2008, 09:19:30 PM
Hey! Im not a geek, ok maybe alittle :-P
All I need is a robotic back now.

~Rachel~

Being a geek is a GOOD thing dear-heart.

Geeks rule the world, for better or worse - Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell...

I am VERY comfortable being a geek.

:icon_no1swatching-nerd:

Can't compare me to them, I am pretty dumb and slow witted for a geek.

~Rachel~

Quote from: drkprincess on February 29, 2008, 12:19:02 AM
Can't compare me to them, I am pretty dumb and slow witted for a geek.

Not judging by the stuff you say around here...

No, im just judging myself because I know myself better then anyone :-P

~Rachel~

Hi, Drkprincess,

I don't know if I can identify with being a geek, although there are times I love reading books. well maybe that just makes me a bookworm. I also wonder if I am dumb and slow when I post something and don't get any responses, then later discover that some indeed had read and understood what I said.

My writing style can change quite rapidly from the sweet country girl to one who can dissect everything into its tiniest components and put it back together, methodically, so that I can understand the mechanics of said dissection. Or maybe get lost on the waves of the ethereal concept of the multiverses, come down to Earth again, and get into a conversation about hairstyles and makeup and the newest in summer wear. I can adapt quite readily to the many trade winds from the seas of Susan's Transgender Forums.   

Quote from: drkprincess on February 29, 2008, 12:45:36 AM
No, im just judging myself because I know myself better then anyone :-P

~Rachel~

Aiee! The clever ones are always hardest on themselves!  ;)  (Not gonna win this one)

But if you don't like being geeky, that's cool too. I don't mind forming a tribe of one... all alone... so sad...  :'(

:P

Posted on: 29 February 2008, 05:51:43

---

Goodness. My horribly immature, juvenile sense of humour is working overtime again today.

LoL, I don't like to lose (I do it too often)

~Rachel~