Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This topic could get off the rails and generate some ill will if we let it.  Before posting a reply to this topic please remember Rule #15 - You may challenge the issue, but never the person.  Don't take replies personally

I subscribe to a TS List Server that emanates from Toronto, Ontario.  It's a pretty good server although not very active.  Recently a topic was raised that generated a lot of replies and I would like to see what Susan's TS members opinions / views are on this subject.

A member in the early days of transition asked other local TS girls if any would like to meet for coffee so that she could test the waters and have a supportive friend to be with and to be able to discuss all number of TS issues the person had questions about.

The girl admitted that she didn't pass very well and to her dismay most refused for the following reasons:

QuoteMany were 100% out and in full transition living deep stealth and didn't want to blow their cover.  If others were to know you were TS despite your passing perfectly well in situations where no one knows, wouldn't you do what you could to protect your privacy in order to protect your friendships, relationships, and possibly your own safety?  Wouldn't you try and protect all your hard work to just be able to live as the person you want to be?  And to avoid being judged than any less than a regular person?  I ran into this two days ago with someone who lives in the area I live in.  She couldn't keep her mouth shut about our transness while we were in a very public place right in our neighborhood.  I even told her I was living stealth once it was evident she was going to talk about trans related topics.  She didn't get the hint that it was an off limits topic.

And post op's reacted the same way for similar reasons.

QuoteI don't think post-ops think of pre-ops as awful. We just want to get on with our lives.

I didn't transition so I could wallow in it. I transitioned to live a full life as a woman. Transition is done and over with and it's my time to go live my life as I need to.

It's sorta like being an alcoholic. I went to AA meetings for about 7 years, then stopped when I felt it was time to move on. I didn't sober up to go to meeting the rest of my life, I sobered up so I could live a normal life.
(Hard core AA's might not like to hear this. Sorry 'bout that.) I've been sober for over 21 years now, so It worked for me.

Keep using the internet for your support and I'm sure you'll find what and who you need.

To mention a couple of the reasons.  There were only a few negative replies but my question is:

What would you do if a TS who didn't pass well asked you if they could accompany you to a busy coffee shop so that they may gain some confidence and experience, and exchange ideas?

Be honest with your answer.

Steph

If I have reason to like the person I have no problem with possibility. ^*shrug* I am sure it helps that I am a basic monstrosity^[1] currently (and the world can burn :P ) so whom shall embarrass whom? ^*chortle*

My point of view I do not foresee changing by the by, simply put I am not ashamed of anything about this. ^*shrug* Fact of life and it isn't that interesting to boot.


Now, if I were stealth, if I wanted to be stealth or if I was embarrassed by this state, then no way. The internet is a wonderful tool; Use it ;)


^[1] Please note this is my self-definition; It does not describe anyone else, in any condition, in any way shape or form. :P

I fully understand someone who has rebuilt their life, and is trying to just get on with their new life, not wanting too be on display in a public restaurant,  It is important to remember that the old life was a hated part of their life that they had to endure, and the restaurant would bring back old painful memories.  I do also fully understand the pulling away from the old group and living as a normal women, which does not include the old gang.   That is a natural part of our life's which is very similar to the way we have pulled away from our old grade School, High School, or University friends.

For myself I still meet with some of my old CD friends in public places, and think little of it.  I think the only time I feel uncomfortable is when I meet friends of my children who didn't know of my being transsexual. 

I try to be a  little careful about major public displays as I do feel a concern for my own profesional standing, and for my children's professional careers.  I have in the past caused some minor problems for one son who was in the military and held a high security clearance, and I don't want anything like that to happen again.

Caitlyn

I hope and pray that I would have the grace to say, "Sure!  My treat!"

From what I am learning, the first step in passing is being self-confident.  Lord knows that all of you here at Susan's helped this girl find the confidence to go walking down the street in a skirt and heels in the middle of the day.

I believe that we reap what we sow.  If I were to say "No," then I feel that I would be betraying your trust and support.  I would be "breaking the faith."

How can I do that to someone taking the same journey I am walking?

Chaunte

I am very like Kimberly. I simply do not care how i am perceived. I absolutely have no shame about this or anything else about myself. Now, my case is slightly different than one who functions in a more traditional manner, (and in fact that alone is difficult for me to relate to), there are those few that know me, I would not be able to go 'stealth', there is a continuity to my work and to my life.
I am trying to imagine, say ten years down the road, any reason I would not in this small way help someone on this path, affecting me in some negative way by association. I cannot. If I were simply too busy, that's something else.
I see a definite contradiction, by the way, of '100% out' and 'in deep stealth' or 'under cover'.

"What would you do if a TS who didn't pass well asked you if they could accompany you to a busy coffee shop so that they may gain some confidence and experience, and exchange ideas?"

I think that I would first want to meet that person, assuming I didn't know her, in a more private (less public?) place to see for myself what not passing well meant to her.  I think we are sometimes our own worst critics.  Then, if I agreed that she didn't pass well, I would offer to help in any way I could in improving her presentation.  This strategy would provide most of what she's asking for, I think.  A boost in confidence by improving presentation and an opportunity to personally speak to someone that has been down the same road before.  Maybe she's looking for a mentor, or just a friend?

Going to a 'busy coffe shop" might be jumping the gun in this case and, if she really didn't pass at all, could put both of us in danger.  For instance, coffee makes me pee so what about bathroom use?  I think everyone would agree that public bathrooms are potentially one the worst places to get clocked.  Maybe, if she's new at this, she never thought of that.  But, if she passed acceptably well in MY opinion, I wouldn't hesitate to go there with her.

Of course, I'm speculating since I'm not all that much further down the road than she is.  I'll be interested in seeing how I REALLY react if the situation ever comes up.

helen

I imagine myself mostly staying out of the TS scene after surgery, but I will still have friends who know about my past.  If I were talking to an unpassable TS in her early transition, I would probably relate to her as any other GG would try to.  If she wants to constantly talk about being TS, then I would have no problem telling her in no uncertain terms that I would not discuss my own transition in public, even if it meant stepping away from others to tell her that.

Melissa

What can I add to this topic that hasn't already been touched upon?

I like the idea of doing a meet-and-evaluate first.  That way you're not turning down the person who's asking for help.   I'd also ask her why, if she's self-admittedly not very passable, she wants to risk diving off a 10-meter platform into deep water, as it were.  What does she think she'll accomplish by doing this without a little practice, first?  (I realize this is mostly just re-phrasing what others have also said -- my apologies for sounding me-too.)

One of the things I'm looking forward to with the suport group I joined is the chance to work out my own 'look' in a safe and supportive environment -- judge not lest ye be judged, and all that..  ;)  Sacramento's Lavender Hill is pretty much about gender/sex orientation non-conformity, and a girl can and will be given some slack for her 'mistakes'  ;)

Also, like here at Susan's, I'm also looking for those things beyond TS that other members bring with them -- skills, knowledge, abilities, interests and such.  For example, of the two SGA members I spent most of my time talking with, one is into computer programming, the other into electronics -- both areas where I have some knowledge and interest.  Certainly, as I put more of transition behind me, I'll be less and less in need of that  '12 step program', but there still may be value in membership for the networking and those beyond-TS interests. 

And, of course, one should repay the karma debt one accumulated from the help and advice you got from those who went before by helping out those who follow -- karma turns rancid if you keep it to yourself...

Karen

I tend to shy away from being in public with those who are terribly unpassable unless I am in certain social circles that are a bit more open minded.

I honestly don't know what I'd do. For a person I didn't know, that is. I do have a friend who doesn't pass very well (MtF) and I have no hesitation about meeting her for coffee or going out with her. But she's also very self-confident and known and loved in our community.

If someone felt that they didn't pass well and was nervous about it, I'd be a little concerned that those who pick on the vulnerable would read that, and that could put us both in danger. Me, either way whether I was read or not, because it's likely that that sort of neanderthal would want to get into a fight with the man accompanying the person, if I was read as male.

Perfect stealth will never be possible for me in this small town, but I do like to pass with strangers so I'm not explaining myself constantly. If someone read me, it wouldn't be any big deal though.

Dennis

What would you do if a TS who didn't pass well asked you if they could accompany you to a busy coffee shop so that they may gain some confidence and experience, and exchange ideas?

I know what I would do and have done it many of times. I don't think twice, except for the coffee shop, I don't like certain coffee shops. It's that I don't like the coffee. I think I have told people here and anywhere, I'm not going back into the closet and I don't care who knows my past. I have taken girls who have just got out of jail and who are down on their luck out to coffee or lunch, I don't care. Just as long as it doesn't interfere with my life with my wife. I even go out with girls or guys who have money and maybe they can buy for a change. The only thing I don't like is some clod who will say out loud that I'm a transsexual. What I mean out loud and I have had this happen is that they will talk extra loud and tell the waiter or who ever comes into earshot, the booth behind us. This happen the week before my surgery. I don't mind talking in a regualar voice and will exchange ideas or whatever. I do know how some feel, as I don't pass all that well and I'm out in the open and some of my "friends" who have gone and got their surgery do that to me now. They don't want to associate themselves with me anymore. They are trying to hide their past. I let them go as I understand they want to go on with their lives. To me, they have just put themselves back into the closet, wondering who knows and maybe I should not go there as I went there before or maybe move to another city, state or clear across the nation. I really feel sorry for them. I'm free and really no one even cares.
Sheila

Wow reverse transphobia, TS's afraid of being seen with TS's. Of course if a 350lb. ex football player buddette with traps the size of Volkswagons wanted to join me in a dress for a latte and singing lessons, I pray I would have the spiritual yevels to help them out even though I was Cosmo perfect and no one new or knew that I used to be Clark Kent before becoming Louis Lane (the Lotto of my personal fantasies, the Cosmo part that is).
One day yet, I may drink those words in my latte, till then it's conjecture. Still the quote,"If I achieved great things,it is because I stood on the back of giants" comes loosely to mind.
By Luna, I hope I have the graciousness of spirit to order two lattes, one for me, one for my friend who just broke the chair trying to sit down gracefully in their new heels...

River's Edge,

Actually survivor instinct.  Now if the said T person wanted to meet at a club or two I normally hit then no problem.  The police in my neck of the woods will not do much, if anything, to aid a transsexual.  Means that I am completely on my own for protection.  One way of doing that is to blend into the general public and not call too much attention to myself.

YMMV and all that.

I would go for someone I like and I feel connected with intellectually.

I am actually planning to meet a friend I met online. He goes to work with the top in guy mode and the bottom in female mode (skirt and high heels boots)

yeap, he is a little weird, but I think he is extremely brave to go out like that.

For all of us who are obsessed with passing....

Gail

( While this is long, please take the time to read it through)  This is JUST MY feelings and Experiences!  Not to judge anyone else for their rights and choices!!
Wow, very interesting responses, glad someone asked this question!  I can sure answer what I have done.  Some of you already know that I worked on a research project (book) for the past nine years. I went all over the country and met families , spouses, children and the TS persons. These people were the participants in the book I did, that will be coming out this summer.  I am just like the guy next door, and no one knew my back ground at all, except for my family and the participants of the work I was doing.  On the very rare ocassion that I have even told someone, like a doctor, they have accused me of lying to them. They don't even believe my past. So I am free to go on with life. And for a few years after my research I did step back and take time out just for me, and I live a very "average" life. Wife, kids, family, co workers, friends etc. Most friends, and no co workers have a clue about my past.

I sat in coffee shops in all areas of the US with TS women that did not pass at all. I have had coffee with a ex NFL football player that stood 6' 5 and 250 lbs.  and dressed like a woman. Because she IS a woman!   She is one of the most spiritually centered people I have ever met in my entire life, and I am very glad I had the honor of meeting her!  And it was not in some liberal area that I did this, I did it in the Western Mts by the TN/NC state line.

I have sat at a table of 7 plus woman that NONE Passed, and I was the only guy there, and people looked at me like, "dude you have a fetish or something" lol.  Was it uncomfortable, yea at the very beginning it was. But it was my hang up, not someone elses problem and I had to get over it, I was human, so no when I first started going out in pubic and meeting TS people that others had wanted me to meet, it was a little rough at first.  I have even been to support groups in various states/cities, and they did not believe I was transitioned, and when they found out, they made ME feel uncomfortable, the reactions were often just really wierd for me, left me very uneasy.

I have also gotten up and walked out of a restuarant when a TS woman I was with, decided to become abnoxious and go into their old "male mole" towards someone in there. I told her flat out, if you want me to treat you like a woman, then you need to act like a woman, and that behavoir I would never accept from any woman, and that includes you!" I stayed outside for her, and drove her home, with our other TS friend that was there. 

I don't care who you are, how you look,  but I do care how anyone conducts themselves out in public. I can be with a woman that never transitioned, and if she acts in a way that I find bothersome, I will leave.  There are guys that I do not hang around, because they are not the kind of guys I associate with.

I know what it is like to claim your life back, I claimed mine.  I also know what it is like to live in a prison fearing what people will find out about you.  I had to make a choice when the book was done and ready to go to the press. I could write it under a pseudo name, I could have also never admitted my own transitional history and just wrote it as a "average" male, who happens to be a Sociologist etc. or I could go ahead and just say, yea I had to do some of my own transitional stuff, and keep it basic and simple, but not deny that I had a transition myself.

But I will never turn someone down that needs my help, just because they look different. I have sat and had dinner with a black women in a ALL black restuarant, and I am white, think I was not looked at???  Be real, you bet they did. So I do not worry about how people look at me just based on who I am with.  There are too many people out there that are hurting, and for me to just close the door in their face? Umm, nah. 

Can I respect that some people have the need to  avoid? Yes I really can.  I understand the fear. But I have been in places all over the US and I have never not one single time had anyone try and start a fight with me, or the women I was with.  They probably just talked behind our backs, actually I would bet on that lol.  So what?

ALL of the participants in the book, live their life in "Stealth" mode.  But they gave back to the communities, by participating and sharing their lives and their families, in serious depth! We all have ways to give back. It does not mean that we have to be "out" there to do it. I hope that many of you that read this, will find ways that even later, when you are free into the new life that you are building yourselves, you will find a means of giving back, while keeping your privacy if you desire to remain private. That is a personal choice that we can only make for ourselves.

My own family gets upset because I consider myself a "trans male" I was born with testes and the rest considered female aspects of biological determination, so while I have that "intersexed" trait, I could ride on that shirt tail, and deny that I am a trans male, but one is not any better than the other!  We are ALL equal, your brothers and sisters that will never blend into society, they need those of us that do, to help out the community, behind the scenes, as well as in the forefront.  If you are like me and end up blending right on in to mainstream society, please don't forget to hand back a little something, because it is but for the grace of god, that you can have this freedom. You know, there was a time none of us would have ever been given the freedoms that we have in transitioning at all.  And freedoms can be lost folks!

Sorry this was so long, and hope it offended no one!

Peace,

Taylor

You didn't say anything that could or should be considered offensive.  You told your story and it was a good one.  I wish we all could be as open and fair as you.

I would love to say that I would be the same, however, I know myself and I tend to hide even when I am alone.  I don't like to be seen with just me, much less anyone else.  I have become a hermittess.

I try to be accepting of everyone, no matter how they look or what their social status is.

Sarah L.

Hi Sarah,

It's all a process, a human one at that. It's ok to be where ever your at, just follow your journey. I bet you have so much to offer! Just be kind to yourself, the rest will unfold.

Peace,

Taylor

I've done just that very thing before.  In spite of my psychologist's telling me over and over that I passed well, I didn't think that I did.  So I arranged to meet a T acquaintance (whom I had talked with on the Internet) in a Wendy's at lunch. 

It worked out well.  I gained a lot of confidence from that experience, and as a result, never think twice about going out in public as the "real" me.  Yeah, I've gotten a few stares since that day (mostly from teenage girls who could clock anybody), but most of the time, no one pays any attention at all. 

Carol


Posted at: April 25, 2006, 04:31:04 PM

---

One more thing I forgot to put in - I'm forever grateful that this friend did it for me.  And I plan on doing for someone else, should the occasion arise.

Carol

Taylor said >It's all a process, a human one at that.<

Isn't that the trick of it, to become more human? Since we're evolving, part of that evolution is where we decide to take it. We're all on the bus, because we are the bus.
I think we're just on the edge of the cultural envelope, just as being gay was 15 years ago. Most people don't even blink these days if you're gay, least from my experience. Same will go with being Trans IMHO, it's just a matter of time, hopefully less than more.

Taylor,

I applaud you.  Long and loud.

What is the name of your book?

Chaunte

Taylor, same here, I would love to know the name of the book and get it when it comes out. Then you will only have to sell 999,999 more books. See how easy that is. LOL
I had a similar experience in a restaurant with a couple of TS's and one started loud mouthing about how I'm going to Thailand to get surgery. Unfortunately, I didn't get up and leave. I kind of slinked down and finished my lunch and wanted out of there fast. Now, I wasn't ashamed of myself, but to say things like that in a restaurant was uncalled for.
Sheila

Chaunte and Shelia,

The name of the book is All Points In Between: Discovering Sexuality It will be out this summer. We also have a web site if you would like to visit it. www.all-pointz.com 

Rivers Edge,

( By the way I really like your name!!)   Evolution is "exactly" what this is about, no question in my mind.  I remember the first time I went to my endocronologist, and I was sitting in the waiting room, ( we are talking 15 yrs ago here) and TIME magazine had a picture of a ape on front page, and the words evolution on it.

I asked my endo when I went back there, if I could have the magazine, and he said, " Can I ask you why you want it?" I said, " Because I am a product of evolution and want to read more"  you know what?  He stated, " And that is why I am seeing you, I believe that full heartedly, you are all ahead of the rest of us"  Man was a glad for that!

The nice thing about social change is that people can resist it, but they cannot stop it!  Well unless they find a way to stop time from forward movement.

Taylor

Taylor, thanks for the kind words. Went to your website, looks very interesting. I'm just wondering have you thought of talking to Nancy Nangironi or Gordene Mckenzie from Gender Talk? Their radio show is cutting edge and I'm sure they'd love to interview you about your forthcoming book since the subject of their show is what your writing about.

Hi,

Thank you for the info. It is truly appreciated!

Taylor

I feel this is one topic that all one has to do is stop and think. Yes we all would like to keep going forward and move on with our lives. But in the same sense weren't we all where this person is? Wouldn't it have been nice to have that extra support. To turn our backs in my mind would be selfish. And who knows, maybe it's just this person's belief she doesn't pass and another TS' opinion may be tantramount to her confidence.

I agree totally with Tinkerbell.

So what the other individual doesn't pass....Label me guilty by association.

Chynna
passes???we dont need no stinkin passes![/color]

I have to agree with Taylor, Tinkerbell and others. Although I am in the early stages of my own evolution, I certainly can't forget those friends who helped me out the same way, when I needed them. I would certainly try to help those who come after me when they need it. I think that it's a responsibility that I owe in some small fashion, to repay those that helped me and to those wo need help.

Jennifer

P.S. Taylor I can't wait to read your book! I'm going to order a copy a.s.a.p. :)

QuoteIt's sorta like being an alcoholic. I went to AA meetings for about 7 years, then stopped when I felt it was time to move on. I didn't sober up to go to meeting the rest of my life, I sobered up so I could live a normal life.
(Hard core AA's might not like to hear this. Sorry 'bout that.) I've been sober for over 21 years now, so It worked for me.

This bit didn't sit too easily with me for starters. In fact I disagree with the analogy entirely. But then I haven't sobered up yet.  I have been through more versions of myself than Doctor Who and I wouldn't know deep stealth if I tripped over it.  I have TS friends who describe themselves as deep stealth who clearly cannot be.  They look like T people from any angle you care to view them from.  Yet they rarely, if ever, suffer abuse.  For that reason I wonder about the nature of deep stealth.  What I mean is how do you know you pass? Because no-one says other wise or because people say you pass really well?  How much of 'passing' is in the eye of the beholder? If you follow my meaning.  There is a transaction that goes on a lot in life, I watched and I've taken part in it.

People are good at accomodating us into their picture of the world - not by any means all of the time.  But most reasonable people see a TS as the person or the gender we request them to see because it's the polite thing to do.

I really don't think deep stealth works the way people think it does. Just Because no one asks if you're ts doesn't mean you haven't been 'read' for want of a better expression.

In answer to the question I would without a second thought.  The same way I talk about my own experiences openly to my friends and go on the Pride marches.  No Fear, No Shame, No Secrets and especially No doubts about the Woman I am and the Joy of being.
My hat is off to Taylor and I too will be buying the book. And getting all me mates to n'all.

I for one would meet with him/her. Even after I finish, if I ever do, I plan to be active in the GLBTQ community, especially with the youth. I want the next generation to have the support I wish I had growing up.

Guilty by association, so what? No offense to the 'deep stealth' TS people, but I didn't start this so I could hide myself all over again. I am unique, the world can get over it.

For me, I plan to also remain active in the GLBTQ community, but eventually as L rather than T.  If somebody asks me if I am T, I say "yes I am".  I'm not ashamed nor proud of who I am.  I just am me.  I don't go around telling everybody, but I'm also not going to lie about it.

Melissa