Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I always start with the presumption that most people are well meaning and polite.

I would like to know how you think that the public reacts to someone that they perceive to be a "man in a dress".
That is, someone who they identify as being genetically male but clearly dressed as a female when the person
is politely and unselfconsciously engaged in a low-key manner with everyday shopping in, say, a supermarket.
Specifically it is meant a person trying to look female and not actively trying to be a "gender-bender".

Would a polite John Q. Public address the MIAD as "Sir" as an act of presumed consideration?
Would a polite John Q. Public address the MIAD as "Ma'am" as an act of presumed consideration?

That is a very good question, and I suppose it would depend entirely on the person. I think the interplay of shock and tolerance would play a major part in the reaction - in other words, how 'used' to gender variance the person is. I think a very polite person that maybe hasn't been too exposed will use sir, and might even ask a question or two, whereas somebody who is tolerant and aware would use ms. An intollerant person, aware or not, would probably end up calling you something else entirely.

Quote from: Renate on March 02, 2008, 05:42:18 AM
I've run into this situation a few times, only recently have I reacted instead of letting it slide.

I received a "Thank you, sir" recently.  I replied in a friendly, polite and good-natured way,
"It's ma'am, a bit of a stretch, but still ma'am".  I received a polite, sincere and apologetic, "Thank you, ma'am."

I don't think that I was being overly apologetic for the situation.
I did want to acknowledge that from some perspective their confusion was understandable.

Renate

I find that "friendly and good-natured" overcomes most initial resistance. Luckily London is a good place to practice. Lots of grumpy people here...  ;)

Renate, I think the way you handled it was great.

Once I was sir'd very intentionally, like the person wanted to make sure that I knew that he knew that I was "a man in a dress"... I wish I'd had a better comeback, but was flustered and didn't say anything.

Z

When i had to dress as a boy for my grandmothers funeral, i got treated as a badly passing f2m... people treated me MORE female, when they percived i was trying to be seen as a boy... nasty sure, some were ok, some wernt, but in general, i was treated more as a girl playing boy...
Depends on who you are, where you are, what they are like...
R >:D

I think that if your "in a dress" the reaction is stronger.
Its as if the more off kilter you seem, the less respect they'll
give you.

If your in girl jeans and top and light makeup, they maleness
of whatever may stand out less than if your dressed ultra-girly.

Some people are asses and will sir you no matter what unless
your passable enough that there's a risk that this assumption of
being male could be right or wrong. Then they'll err on side of caution.

Anyway, in a service situation, you are queen, if somebody disses you, correct them and if they're being a smart ass about it, go to the manager. Your money is still money and unless your disturbing the clients by shopping in a wedding dress and 5 inch pumps, its as good as any...

well, if this person made no effort to look the part, then my perception would be that this person is a male doing this for reasons that have nothing to do with being a female on the inside.  but thats just first appearance, i suppose if i got to know the person would be a different story...

Well, in my case, I am not at the point where I can't do everything I can to appear as female on the outside as I am on the inside.  So, here are my thoughts.

I have only gotten one ma'am and that was a couple weeks ago.  Prior to that I got a confused "sir or oh I mean ma'am".  This was just after I introduced a wig so that I could have long hair while I am in public as Amy.  Prior to that, I never have gotten a "ma'am".  Always "sir".  Lately, I have gotten no "sir" or "ma'am". 

One time I had a fortune in a fortune cookie that stated something like, "Be simple in your dress."  Well, I noticed that is some good advice.  When I try to over do it, I stick out more.  However, if I keep it simple, I am more relaxed and confident and people respond better. 

I usually have no issues while in public.  Out in public for me was the first place I could be myself because at home or anywhere else were off limits.  Now that I have been living on my own, things have improved and I am myself all the time except at work.

Anyway, back onto the strict topic of a man in a dress.  This question is being asked to a group of TG people who don't feel that they are men in dresses.  So, in my opinion, I have to think of it as a "male" in a dress these days. 

Prior to accepting the fact that I am female already (at least on the inside) rather than just wanting to be female, I tried the "man in a dress" thing as a way to cope with my gender issues.  I figured that if I could be happy as a man in a dress, then I would not have to become a woman in a dress.  That didn't work so I am now beginning to become that woman.  But, during the man in a dress days, it was always "sir". 

Like I said, it was the addition of a wig that significantly reduced the number of "sirs". 

So to sum things up, just wearing girls clothes without no other efforts and you in your mind see yourself as a guy, then you will get called sir.

Amy

I'll state something Renate.
Your bluntness just means that I won't continue posting
in this thread. Hey. If you want a headtrip response
with very tight parameters, do a simulation, or
do some lab experiment, cause your
not looking for real life.

Quote from: Renate on March 02, 2008, 07:42:00 AM
To restate some points to maintain coherency:

• This topic is not about passing, please don't post anything in that vein.
• This topic has nothing to do with your feelings.
• This topic is operating on the presumption of well meaning and polite people.
• The MIAD is trying to present modestly as female.
• The Public Person has identified the MIAD as a genetic male for whatever reason.
• The Public Person has noticed that the MIAD is dressed as a female for whatever reason.

The topic is how does the Public Person address the MIAD and what is their presumed logic.

Renate.

No such well meaning or polite person exists... 'wellmeaning' to them, may be siring the 'miad'

Your topic is too narrow a view to yeild any actual results because your stating the type of person, and the result already...
the person you consider here, would undoubtably ma'am the miad....
in reality, that type of person is few and far between...
R :police:

I'm not sure *I* would know what to do, to be honest. I live in an area with a huge gay population, so how do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him. I say SIR, and if it's someone with GID, I hurt her terribly.

I'm sure The Public goes through the same debate at times, and in a way, saying SIR is a safer guess - especially since The Public is more familiar with gays than GID.

~Kate~

I hope this isn't too off topic but what if you just try to avoid pronouns? Maybe the general public just tries to avoid them in an ability to just not be mean nor really nice?

I knew a guy in high school who was neither gay nor transgendered (or at least, he was not being open about either), but who on a couple of occasions showed up to school in a skirt. Just for kicks, basically. Nobody ma'amed him, and he gave no indication that anyone should. Probably not what you're looking for?

In public, with (sorry, need a real example) a non-passing trans woman, most people will take cues from the company she keeps. (I speaking from experience of several times in the past with a VERY boyish haircut, badly mismatched clothes, etc... ) Being with one or two companions and interacting as a group of women will at least raise enough doubt in a well-intentioned and reasonably polite person to avoid using "sir" -- or possibly any other gendered language (as shanetastic said). Plurals work too, as in "ladies" (said by a restaurant host/hostess leading a group to a table)

Quote from: shanetastic on March 02, 2008, 12:12:06 PM
I hope this isn't too off topic but what if you just try to avoid pronouns? Maybe the general public just tries to avoid them in an ability to just not be mean nor really nice?

Great answer! I'd rather someone not call me anything than to be sir'd...

Z

I know a woman who's gotten sir'd.  I think she just says, "I'm a woman".

Once, before I was able to pass, I had the phrase "F|_|ckin ->-bleeped-<-got!" shouted at me in public. :'(

Posted on: March 02, 2008, 06:51:44 PM

---

Quote from: Kate on March 02, 2008, 12:07:04 PMhow do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him.

Is there really anyone like that? Sounds doubtful. If a gay man were that feminine, he wouldn't mind being called ma'am, might even take it as a compliment or at least be indifferent. If he wanted to assert his maleness, he wouldn't be in a dress.

Quote from: Hypatia on March 02, 2008, 07:04:24 PM

Quote from: Kate on March 02, 2008, 12:07:04 PMhow do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him.

Is there really anyone like that? Sounds doubtful. If a gay man were that feminine, he wouldn't mind being called ma'am, might even take it as a compliment or at least be indifferent. If he wanted to assert his maleness, he wouldn't be in a dress.

I dunno. A drag queen, in theory at least, still identifies as a male. Outside of the club and away from their act do you respect their gender identity? Or their presentation (which could be an "act" as much as an expression)?

I'm just imagining myself out buying snacks and encountering someone like this, an obvious male in female attire. Are they a non-passing M2F? Are they a male-identifying crossdresser just having fun? An androgyne? A gay drag queen? Or even a transtioning F2M still wearing women's clothing because they don't realize they pass yet?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on March 02, 2008, 07:27:41 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on March 02, 2008, 07:04:24 PM

Quote from: Kate on March 02, 2008, 12:07:04 PMhow do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him.

Is there really anyone like that? Sounds doubtful. If a gay man were that feminine, he wouldn't mind being called ma'am, might even take it as a compliment or at least be indifferent. If he wanted to assert his maleness, he wouldn't be in a dress.

I dunno. A drag queen, in theory at least, still identifies as a male. Outside of the club and away from their act do you respect their gender identity? Or their presentation (which could be an "act" as much as an expression)?

I'm just imagining myself out buying snacks and encountering someone like this, an obvious male in female attire. Are they a non-passing M2F? Are they a male-identifying crossdresser just having fun? An androgyne? A gay drag queen? Or even a transtioning F2M still wearing women's clothing because they don't realize they pass yet?

~Kate~

Kate, you should shop a bit down by the river!!  :laugh: :laugh: You might well have that experience in a couple of the shops from time-to-time!!!  :laugh: :laugh: I have.

The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

Nichole

just say "Hi" and see how they respond.

since i work in service (automotive) some people still insult me and refer to me as male, but for customers if i can't really tell, i ask how they prefer to be addressed so that they are addressed properly, adn having the kind of memory i do, i remember most of my customers. i think this way is best to aoid confusion on everyone's part.



Mickie

This reminds me of Miss J on America's Next Top Model.  I have no idea what pronouns to use.

I used to wear my hair long (it's short now, an ongoing discussion between my wife and I :) )
Anyway, I've had people address me as ma'am, or when my wife and I were together as 'ladies', even when I was dressed androgenously. I always enjoyed these moments!
Once someone addressed me as ma'am, then quickly corrected herself. We had a good laugh about it - I think she was more embarrased than I was (especially since I was dressed in track pants and a shirt, no breast forms :) )

I think most people are well meaning. There are a few ->-bleeped-<-s. I just try to ignore them. I'm lucky that I've never had anyone hassle me continuously.

Hugs,
Vanessa

Happened once -- hair not that long, but down, wintertime, wearing an overcoat (which I guess could be considered androgynous?), at the supermarket. The bagger asked "Paper or plastic, ma'am?" I heard "man", not "ma'am" -- I wasn't even trying. So I said "whichever, it doesn't matter," in a less than completely feminine voice (not trying, see)...

He was so embarassed and apologetic.

Oh, I just melted!

Quote from: Nichole on March 02, 2008, 07:46:02 PM

The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

Nichole

Same here, Nichole.  I knew a couple of drag queens years ago. For them, it was a twice-monthly hoot, and they had a great time, apparently.  I doubt if you would see them out and about doing regular public activities unless necessary.  Other than that, they were just regular people, who identified as men.....and they were overtly gay.
Somehow, this part of the TG community is not my cup of tea.  Maybe it is because BEING a woman from a transitioned man was such a long, arduous process for me, and not a night out on the town.  Is there something I missed?  Am I just insensitive to this group of people??

jag (just another girl)
Bev



Bev

Quote from: Beverly on March 03, 2008, 06:37:53 PM

Quote from: Nichole on March 02, 2008, 07:46:02 PM

The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

Nichole

Same here, Nichole.  I knew a couple of drag queens years ago. For them, it was a twice-monthly hoot, and they had a great time, apparently.  I doubt if you would see them out and about doing regular public activities unless necessary.  Other than that, they were just regular people, who identified as men.....and they were overtly gay.
Somehow, this part of the TG community is not my cup of tea.  Maybe it is because BEING a woman from a transitioned man was such a long, arduous process for me, and not a night out on the town.  Is there something I missed?  Am I just insensitive to this group of people??

jag (just another girl)
Bev

The ones I hung out with back then were never just 'overtly gay,' Bev. They were damn-well flamingly gay  :laugh: :laugh: They just loved the attention in our 'Mountain Empire' up in E. TN and SW VA!!

Actually, they were definitely a hoot and enjoyed themselves a lot. Never was under the impression 'I was like them' but they were pretty decent friends. As were the two who were on hrt, birth-control pills back in the day, but all of them had begun as 'show-girls.'

Maybe you are 'insensitive to this group' I surely wouldn't know that. You seem pretty sensitive to everyone around here, luv!!  :) The fact you can consider that you may be speaks volumes about you for me. Most folk, trans or not, just accept their own 'blind-spots' and prejudices without ever even thinking about whether or not they are problematic. I'd say you are ahead of the curve.

Hugs,

Nichole

And yeah, Renate, I know that was off-topic. Sorry, I thought Bev might appreciate it though.

Quote from: Nichole on March 03, 2008, 07:22:18 PM

And yeah, Renate, I know that was off-topic. Sorry, I thought Bev might appreciate it though.

And appreciate it I did :)

*Hugz*

The really cool thing about this kind of communication, is that it often becomes a stream of consciousness conversation between a group of women, with acceptable cross-talk which has a little bit for everyone, interwoven in and around the original topic. Very female in construction, very appealing.  Susan's version of "The View".


Now, back on subject  ;D


Bev

"Flaming gay" is easy.

If the ______ between your legs, matches the _______ between your lips.  You're there.


The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

I know several, including a few who life 90% full time.  Of couse, I do get out of the house now and again.

before we encur Renate's rath again... i suggest we stick to topic... which is 'regardless of why the person is dressed as female, they are seen as a dude in a dress... what will johnny public say/do?
R >:D

Quote from: Renate on March 02, 2008, 07:42:00 AM
To restate some points to maintain coherency:

• This topic is not about passing, please don't post anything in that vein.
• This topic has nothing to do with your feelings.
• This topic is operating on the presumption of well meaning and polite people.
• The MIAD is trying to present modestly as female.
• The Public Person has identified the MIAD as a genetic male for whatever reason.
• The Public Person has noticed that the MIAD is dressed as a female for whatever reason.

The topic is how does the Public Person address the MIAD and what is their presumed logic.

Renate.

The Public Person could always cheat and avoid sir or ma'am, perhaps using a question as a form of address.

Smiling at the person and asking "May I help you?" would avoid assigning a gender and perhaps getting the gender wrong if you are a sales person.

The key would be making eye contact.  "Would you prefer paper or plastic?" is a genderless enough version of "Paper or plastic, ma'am/sir" and works as being polite.

Of course, if you have a habit of using sir or ma'am, you may find it hard to break the habit.

In Arabic and Hebrew, the words for "you" are gendered masculine and feminine. If you only say "you" to someone, you still have to make a decision about their gender. The verbs are gendered too, so you can't use a sentence with a second-person verb conjugation without judging someone's gender. Be glad we use English!

French is one of the most gendered language, words, article, qualificatives, pronouns, etc, they're all gendered.

OK... Arabic and Hebrew have all that as well.... and in addition, you can't say tu or vous or any associated verbs without specifying gender as well. This was in reply to Rowan's suggestion to just say "you" when you're unsure about someone's gender. It's a lot easier to evade the question in both English and French.

Wife asks husband who he's going out with tonight. In English he can just say "With a friend" and sound innocent. In Italian he'd have to specify con una amica if the friend is female--aha, busted!

same with russian... uber genderd...
R >:D

In french, you'd be busted if you write it, not if you say it,
since the "e" in amie is silent. But, there are plenty of
other endings that are not silent.

Even if the pronoun is tu, there's a good chance the article or qualificative will out you because it will be feminine, unless your lucky and they are silent and you don't write it.

or like most guys you just say 'im going out with a mate for a drink'
Ie, off to see the mistress :P
Just because he is off to see a woman doesnt mean he has to be honest :P
this is guys were talking about...

R >:D

Hmmmm. I started full time 8 years ago and to tell the truth I can't remember being addressed as anything else then mam. And to be most assured  I am certainly not the prettiest girl in town. Wish I was. But then my being a small person lends more credibility to appearing to be female. But then I have seen a good many androgynous looking folks in the environs of where I live. Well then on the other hand it's a good  possibility they *were* androgynous folks. I am getting the feeling I already drifted away from the topic at hand. Well that is about all I can add to this discussion without straying off topic even more. Not enough wiggle room in order to expound and formulate a reasonable scenario or assessment on this gentleman in a dress.

Cindy

I think the main part of 'man in a dress' syndrome, is Transwomen not knowing what to wear... to suit thier bodies, and age... the double take of 'ew what is she wearing? oshi he....' is most likely a high contributory factor...
R >:D

Hmm. When I was completely ignorant of transgender issues, I may have addressed the person as 'Sir'. A gay friend of mine who was dating a transgendered woman corrected me and explained that when a male=bodied person is 'en femme' whether they be trans or a drag queen, they generally prefer female pronouns. So when I see someone en femme I address them as 'ma'am', 'she' and 'her'.

Nero, that's great advice.  We have a right in this world to choose a lot of things.  While there are always consequences, we choose what and how to believe, whether or not to carry a baby to full term, whether or not to smoke, how much alcohol we drink, what we want to do for a living, where in the world we want to live, and on and on it goes ad nauseum.  Everyone in this age seems to be cool with the fact that we choose these things.  So why, then, do people get their bowels in an uproar when we choose which gender we wish to present as?  I mean, really...think about it.  If you see someone who looks like a man in a dress, is there any more blatant sign that this person wishes to be addressed by female language?  It doesn't take a Phi Beta Kappa to know that if a person has enough guts to go out like that, she wishes to be called "she."  I look back at my earliest pics and I cringe.  I am glad I am doing better now, at least I think I am.  Everybody starts somewhere.  The CDs I know, while we have a lot of differences, have had the same feelings about going out en femme when starting out as I did.  My first time out I almost needed a fire extinguisher for my panties.  In another way, it was wonderful, but it takes guts to make that choice.  And if a person is up to that challenge, I think they at least deserve to be called by the language appropriate to the gender in which they present.

[/rant]

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Rachael on March 05, 2008, 07:44:47 AM
I think the main part of 'man in a dress' syndrome, is Transwomen not knowing what to wear... to suit thier bodies, and age... the double take of 'ew what is she wearing? oshi he....' is most likely a high contributory factor...

That's what I think too. Poor taste in attire, never having developed a trustworthy style sense, not having grown up with it. Girlfriends are essential for criticizing a woman's looks and helping her to find what works for her. If one want to present high feminine, one must be impeccable or don't even try. That's why I dress conservatively, especially at my age. Works well for me, but it took me a couple years of practice, trial and error, until I got a girlfriend who worked with me to correctly develop my style sense.

'I mean you wouldnt buy a skirt without first asking your friends if it looked good on you right?'

Cookie for whoever names that film ;)
R >:D

Hi, Beverly,
I do so agree with you. I was a transitioning male to female and I jumped the hoops but I did most of my transitioning by myself in the sense I did it with the minimum of support from out there except for the docs I needed to see for the legal documentation.

There was no support of any sort near where I lived anyway. I did not learn how to live as a female without my share of skinned knuckles and shin bones, so to speak. But I must say it certain has been an interesting journey. Probably got more education about just plain living  during those 7 short years than I did during all of my previous 55 years.

It is nearly 8 years ago when I started my journey full time and I am still learning how to feel and think like a lady. The worst thing I have gone through, more than the pains of transitioning,  was getting involuntarily retired from being a social worker. And believe me I am doing every thing to get back into action, even if it means volunteering for a position. I have a meeting to attend tomorrow that I am truly anxious to get on with it. If you will, send a little prayer, please. The position will be that of running a drop in center and support group for Trans folks. Just want to have the opportunity to give back what I have received from my mostly online sisters and brothers that I have met through the years.

As for the transgender community, I say good and fine for those who belong there. I am always ready to go to anyone's assistance no matter who or what they are but I have a hard time of it when someone tries to put me in a little box.  I straight out do not trust any organisation that would try to label me, like a specimen in a laboratory. Nor do I feel like I would feel any safer in a TG community. I have been a loner for a good many years until I met Wing Walker, and she is my female warrior in brilliant vibrant energy armor, wielding a brightly shining energy sword in her hand above here head. She stands regally atop a cliff overlooking the battle ground, legs slightly spread apart,  she awaits for any enemy that should be bold enough to approach her.

But then this entire post is only my observation and not necessarily anyone else's. Just threw in the warrior one for enhancement  ;D ;D

Cindy

Quote from: Rachael on March 02, 2008, 06:17:55 AM
When i had to dress as a boy for my grandmothers funeral, i got treated as a badly passing f2m... people treated me MORE female, when they percived i was trying to be seen as a boy... nasty sure, some were ok, some wernt, but in general, i was treated more as a girl playing boy...
Depends on who you are, where you are, what they are like...
R >:D

Wait so why wouldn't you dress as a boy all the time then?  If people treat your MORE female when you do that, and you want people to treat you as a female, then I'm confused.

Are you sure it wasn't just because you were around a lot of old people who would have thought you were a girl regardless of how you dressed?

Why would old people be more enclined to see me as female?

Actually it wasnt just at the funeral... it was going to the station, at the various stations, the cab driver... everyone...

But then, i i look female anyway, so whats the point? i like to look good, so i dress in nice clothes... mens suits arnt high on my agenda... neither is looking like a business dyke :P
R >:D

Quote from: cindybc on March 05, 2008, 04:31:47 PM
The worst thing I have gone through, more than the pains of transitioning,  was getting involuntarily retired from being a social worker. And believe me I am doing every thing to get back into action, even if it means volunteering for a position. I have a meeting to attend tomorrow that I am truly anxious to get on with it. If you will, send a little prayer, please. The position will be that of running a drop in center and support group for Trans folks.

Good luck Cindy! It would be wonderful if you get this position!

Z

Hi Zythyra
Thanks hon, hey and if you should ever come to BC you would be more then welcome too drop by the center then Wing Walker and I could take you to do a little dancing at one of the Drag Kings talent night. We really had fun there the last time we went there.

Cindy   

Quote from: Rachael on March 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Why would old people be more enclined to see me as female?

Hypatia's Law: Passability is directly proportional to the observer's age.

hows that work then?
R >:D

Quote from: Hypatia on March 06, 2008, 09:19:50 AM

Quote from: Rachael on March 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Why would old people be more enclined to see me as female?

Hypatia's Law: Passability is directly proportional to the observer's age.

Rachael was trying to pass as a boy, but they didn't buy it. So it seems backwards.

Two thoughts, Rachael: Either you didn't want to pass, or you were expecting to pass better. For either reason you maybe weren't trying very hard. And if you were expecting to pass better, maybe getting read as a female just stood out more in your mind.

Quote from: Renate on March 02, 2008, 05:24:28 AM
Would a polite John Q. Public address the MIAD as "Sir" as an act of presumed consideration?
Would a polite John Q. Public address the MIAD as "Ma'am" as an act of presumed consideration?

(This topic is not about passing, please don't post anything in that vein.)

Renate

not about passing? but 'man in a dress' is a definition of one who is not passing.

so, to clarify here, you're saying "how does polite John Q. Public address one who is not passing (this is not about passing)

polite ones:

a) pity the MIAD or
b) find the MIAD interesting and/or cute on her own terms

however, the polite ones are not the ones the MIAD needs to worry about!!! hello?

ps
you know i'm just being difficult with you, right, Renate? it's just that some of the things you say seem to paint a target on yourself that i just can't resist taking a jab at  :P   i meant no offense though, ok?
-L

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 06, 2008, 02:42:05 PM
Rachael was trying to pass as a boy, but they didn't buy it. So it seems backwards.

Yeah, she was attempting to revert to pre-transition gender. It was backwards. Hypatia's Law describes how it works forwards. Trying to pass backwards screws up the equations.  :P

Hi well I figure that if Rachael dressed with men's attire and still passed as a girl all's I can say, "Hey my dear friend Rachael" do tell me what the secret is.

Well I figured out something myself on the best way to be passable is to project your Idea of what you want people to see. No s**t it works wonderfully. I have been doing it for some time now. Last year I was even carded for a deck of cigarettes in Asheville North Carolina. 

Cindy

i would suggest a modicum of spite possibly?
maybe politeness, maybe genuinely seeing me as a female... but hey,
i didnt pass any different tbh, i look the same... but it was clearly a more obvious contrast that was visible as i was dressed in boys clothes. literally crossdressing ><
WIAS (woman in a suit) am new oposite term to miad now :P
R >:D

Obviously these good folks could *not* see the old you, possibly because you have simply changed in appearance since back then. Also since when did most of these good folks last saw you as the other?...... Gee I hope that made sense.

Cindy

most havent... they were randoms in the street ,or at the stations i went to etc...
at the funeral, most havent met me...
parents still said i looked like an effeminate boy however ><
R >:D

Wonderful Rachael hon. now enjoy the hell out of it. Life is to short to sit around a computer chatting with old bats like me. You only come by this rout but once now is time to reap the harvest. I make my rounds around the community doing what I can to support others who are in need,

Cindy

its 9am, im trying to wake up before my busy day :P good enough excuse?
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on March 07, 2008, 02:56:05 AM
WIAS (woman in a suit)

Oooo baby now you're talking.  ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lib.berkeley.edu%2FMRC%2Fnoir%2Fimages%2Fdietr-lg.jpg&hash=1b9f0cfdec0d68787d0ae6bdd57e32e430a8e65a)

Quote from: Hypatia on March 06, 2008, 09:19:50 AM

Quote from: Rachael on March 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Why would old people be more enclined to see me as female?

Hypatia's Law: Passability is directly proportional to the observer's age.

I find that to be true as well. Up to the point that cataracts set-in I find older people are more likely to identify one as the gender they present clothing-wise, etc. Although middle-aged people tend to do the same.

I have found the 'line' to be somewhere around 'college-age' in fact. 2 days on a campus of around 30,000 students and I have never had a problem this past two years.

The very young perhaps like 2-7 y/os, certainly when I started, but not so much the past few years. The little 2 y/o whose birthday party we are going to tomorrow always refers me as 'Aunt Nichole.' But, she's known me from birth, hers.  :laugh: :laugh:

All-in-all, it's a crap-shoot, with observers and the trans-people.

But the absolute worst to 'pass' with are teenagers, particularly 13-16 y/o girls in groups. They are also most likely to comment about how one looks. Regardless the flak I have been given about them by a couple of posters, they notice a lot.

BTW, I was happy to see that ellie pointed out that without talking about 'passing' you can hardly have the thread. Because if people are identifying one as female, then they are not identifying one as 'man in a dress.'

Rach, parents are the worst. Well, one's own parents. They are gonna probably always see their 'son.' Even if they don't.  :laugh:

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on March 07, 2008, 12:40:08 PM
Rach, parents are the worst. Well, one's own parents. They are gonna probably always see their 'son.' Even if they don't.  :laugh:

Do you think that would change after a long period apart, especially if transition takes place during said period, or would that make it worse? I honestly can't decide on that one.

I would think a lot of that has to do with who your parents are.

Quote from: lady amarant on March 07, 2008, 01:08:44 PM

Quote from: Nichole on March 07, 2008, 12:40:08 PM
Rach, parents are the worst. Well, one's own parents. They are gonna probably always see their 'son.' Even if they don't.  :laugh:

Do you think that would change after a long period apart, especially if transition takes place during said period, or would that make it worse? I honestly can't decide on that one.

Depends on what their expectations and beliefs are, I imagine. And maybe too the degree of 'change' the child underwent.

N~

Quote from: lady amarant on March 07, 2008, 01:08:44 PM
Do you think that would change after a long period apart, especially if transition takes place during said period, or would that make it worse? I honestly can't decide on that one.

My apologies to Renate for straying from the original topic, but...

I think it's generally best if parents have a chance to watch the transition process, as it gives them time to mourn the loss of their "son." I know it's hard to "watch someone you love disappearing" as I've been told, but it does provide a sense of closure in the end.

I've been trying to see my parents for well over a year now, but.. oh well. I keep warning them, but I'm sure I'm just their "crossdressing son" to them still. IF we ever meet again, it's going to be quite a shock. Or maybe not, I don't know... they have a talent for not recognizing my accomplishments and victories.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand ;)

~Kate~

thats what i am to them too....

They saw me since, they just told me i act flamboyant and effeminate, look gay, and not female remotely...
its a 'perverted obsession/hobby' to them *shrugs*
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on March 07, 2008, 04:05:17 PM
thats what i am to them too....

They saw me since, they just told me i act flamboyant and effeminate, look gay, and not female remotely...
its a 'perverted obsession/hobby' to them *shrugs*
R >:D

Heck of a "hobby" ::) Things such as collecting coins, building model trains or gardening are hobbies, not gender. Except perhaps collecting shoes  >:D

For a while my parents thought this was a "phase"...

Z

Ya my sister, though, It was just a phase, she spoke. She called one day and said that she and her husband were coming for a visit. I always loved their visits. I told her over the phone that I had started full time. I really don't have any idea what went through her mind except shock. She knocked and I opened the door and she spoke three words that will remain etched in my subconscious memory to the very soul and if it was to the soul then be it, it will probably haunt me into several future reincarnations in time. The words were simply "Oh my God!" she dropped a couple of bags at the entrance to my apartment then turned and left.

My brother in-law who actually was a truly a nice person tried to call her back but she left and he turned to look at me and shrugged his shoulders and followed the way she had gone, but not before I had a long look at his face, there was no malice in that face just a hurt disappointed look. He would have accepted my transitioning, so much for women being more accepting, well maybe for the best part and I can only pray so. The girls at work were quite supportive.  I had already gone to visit them at their trailer in a trailer park shortly before I went full time and had already told both of them what my plans were including when I was going to begin doing full time.????????????? 

Well I try to not think about it much. That was 7 years ago and I have accepted their decision to not visit or even write any letters to me, that is their choice and that's ok with me now. I'm a big girl, I can look after myself but sometimes all I can do is to let the tears run down both cheeks

Cindy.

Quote from: cindybc on March 07, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
Well I try to not think about it much. That was 7 years ago and I have accepted their decision to not visit or even write any letters to me, that is their choice and that's ok with me now. I'm a big girl, I can look after myself but sometimes all I can do is to let the tears run down both cheeks

I'm terrified that that happens when I go back home to South Africa in August. My mom and dad MAYBE not so much, but I really worry that my brother will just say. "It's not worth the aggravation." Being supportive over the phone once in a while is great, but seeing a different person after almost two years...

Anyway. Back on topic. I too am sorry to have strayed.

Hi Lady Amarant I will send prayers that everything goes well when you go to visit family in South Africa

Yes as I have heard in this board on occasions that parents/family are probably the worst ones to try to reason with or convince unfortunately. The average *I am guessing* would be approximately be about the same as wives sticking it out with their TS spouse. Actually maybe a bit more favorable percentage for the parents/family then for the TS's spouse. Roughly guessing I will say, maybe 2% or 3% percent out of the entire population of Trans folks which probably all of us has taken our turn at making attempts at trying to reconciliation with our parents/family and or spouses. Will they actually stick it out and try to be supportive?

Being TS is almost the same as a saying, has anyone here heard the old saying that was used in the program of AA? Alcohol must be the best cleaner there ever was. Eventually alcohol will remove everything from you. But one thing that trans can't take away from me, and that is my birthday, Personally I wish it did.

Cindy 

Some transsexuals do seem to wear weird clothes...

If I saw a man in a dress, I'd rip it right off!

Hmmmmmmmmm "nah!" I'm not prone to violence, never have been. Even under the worst of circumstances where I should have reacted in some way but never did. But reacting in such a disturbing manner as to rip the dress off of some man would not be motive enough for me to react in that manner. "Nay!" anyway what if that dress wearing man was bigger then me?  Would that be reason enough for me to act like  an ornery pregnant wart hog? " I never could do that," I prefer playing pranks, like maybe use a little mojo and cast a spell for a very large pimple on the end of his Mickey Mouse.

Cindy

I was being silly, Cindy.   I just thought it sounded funny.  Like a man is standing around in a dress all happy and stuff then someone comes along and tears it off revealing him for all the world to see in his undies.

Quote from: Rebis on March 10, 2008, 07:26:05 PM

I was being silly, Cindy.   I just thought it sounded funny.  Like a man is standing around in a dress all happy and stuff then someone comes along and tears it off revealing him for all the world to see in his undies.

I thought you really liked hir dress and were ripping it off so you could wear it  :D ;)

Z

That too.   :laugh:

Quote from: Rebis on March 10, 2008, 07:38:30 PM

That too.   :laugh:

I thought as much...

Well, if zie was wearing this skirt, I'd have to steal it  >:D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.alibaba.com%2Fphoto%2F11550938%2FGypsy_Hippie_Cotton_Long_Skirt_Crochet_Waist_Handmade.jpg&hash=848e528b152bf342f1d4bdb3246f94a3110f9ef8),

Z

Wow that's some wild colors, Ya I have a couple of broom skirts but not colorful like that one. I just love colors.

Hi Rebis I know you were just messing around, so was I  ;D

I messed around on another thread earlier today as well actually two. When I get frustrated I love posting nonsense, makes me feel better. It's more fun here though. I like messing around when I'm frustrated but my nastiness is about the equivalent of a mosquito missing its proboscis.  So I laugh myself better. ;D

Cindy

Yeah, nice colors.

Nice shape too.  Kind of low on the hips isn't it?

That kind of skirt's not really my style, I love them short, earthy colors preferably, love the schoolgirl ones though may be a bit passed that age :-).

Quote from: Rebis on March 11, 2008, 07:51:22 AM

Yeah, nice colors.

Nice shape too.  Kind of low on the hips isn't it?

perfect hight for a nice inverted triangle shaped tatoo peaking out of the cleavage there ^_^
thas am one sexy skirt :P
But it takes an epic body to pull it off or it just looks trashy and bohemian.
R >:D

what's wrong with bohemian?  :'(

If you can pardon me continuing off-topic, this skirt is exactly where I'm at stylistically, with the elegant sweep of the former, but a more classy color scheme. You are guaranteed not to look trashy in this...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Fjohanna_hypatia%2Fpic%2F00006cac&hash=f21ea5a35f4a90781edb9abfd5a8fa2dfffba8ea)

Quote from: Hypatia on March 11, 2008, 12:04:02 PM
If you can pardon me continuing off-topic, this skirt is exactly where I'm at stylistically, with the elegant sweep of the former, but a more classy color scheme. You are guaranteed not to look trashy in this...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Fjohanna_hypatia%2Fpic%2F00006cac&hash=f21ea5a35f4a90781edb9abfd5a8fa2dfffba8ea)

ye gods! what a good look that is ... except for that hat ...

I believe she's required to wear the hat otherwise, her fans wouldn't know what kind of music she plays.         ::)

Hi Rebis I was thinking more in line with Gypsy. I lived like a gypsy for a bit over 10 years between 1980 and 1994. Truck and camper everywhere on the Eastern states and Provinces as far as Newfoundland.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2F3_20gypsys-1.jpg&hash=c2191414fc3c8214a034e2d9574a12fde573c6d7)

Cindy

*sigh* if only the gypsies here were so, cultured....
most just nick anything not bolted down, and wear tracksuits...
R >:D

Hi Rachael thanks for the laugh. I'm not even certain if there are any real Gypsies left around about. Maybe they joined up with what was left of the hippies. I know a couple of hippie ladies. Actually one of them is a coordinator Wise Woman at the pagan and wiccan meetup.

Cindy

Quote from: Rachael on March 11, 2008, 03:49:31 PM
*sigh* if only the gypsies here were so, cultured....
most just nick anything not bolted down, and wear tracksuits...
R >:D

Along with hoop earings, slickered-down, side-tied pony-tails and an attitude that would make Vin Diesel run scared. Okay, maybe not Vin, but every other man I can think of...

Quote from: Rebis on March 11, 2008, 03:26:49 PM
I believe she's required to wear the hat otherwise, her fans wouldn't know what kind of music she plays.

Actually, she's required to wear the hat because the perfume brand she's advertising is Stetson.

Shania skirt is amazing, as well as her cleavage.  >:D

I love the gypsy girl look, flowing skirts, hoop earings and toe rings.  Very appealing but not for the office I suppose.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE-f3K0GLE8


My favourite fluffy romantic comedy movie, 'Gypsy Woman'.  Jack Davenport and Neve McIntosh -yummy pair!!  ;D

Quote from: Hypatia on March 11, 2008, 05:30:46 PM

Quote from: Rebis on March 11, 2008, 03:26:49 PM
I believe she's required to wear the hat otherwise, her fans wouldn't know what kind of music she plays.

Actually, she's required to wear the hat because the perfume brand she's advertising is Stetson.

Even after you said it's an ad, I'm having trouble seeing the product.    Maybe I should rub my eyes with that stetson.  :laugh:

most just nick anything not bolted down, and wear tracksuits...

Oh, and yet we should not typecast you?  It warms my heart when people with such obvious preconcived notions ask for tollarence. 

Ive seen it happen.  its Mister. Shrug.

Hey, I kinda like old ST.  She is not bad.  (High praise from me by the way).  The fact that she married one of the best rock producers ever, who writes for her, and does her records, well, its her right now.  That she has an endorsement with Stetson, well, good for her, even if her perfume smells worse than a barnyard at high noon.  But hey, I'm a Ardan kind of girl.

Okay.  I just figured out my reaction to a man in a dress.

If I saw a man in a dress, I would tear the dress off.
while he's a-standin' there in his bloomers, I would put on the dress.
then one of you would run up and tear the dress off of me and I'd be in my bloomers.
Then whoever tore the dress off me would put it on themselves while I stood there crying.

So, my reaction to a man in a dress would be for me to cry while figuring out why there's only one dress to go around.



The End,


Rebis

Quote from: Rebis on March 12, 2008, 07:50:07 AM
So, my reaction to a man in a dress would be for me to cry while figuring out why there's only one dress to go around.

The answer to this dilemma is thrift stores. There are plenty of nice skirts at thrift stores  ;) ;D

Why people even have issues with perceived men wearing dresses is beyond my comprehension. I mean, it's just a skirt!! I don't like ties. Suppose I start ripping off people's ties when I see them wearing them...  >:D

Z

second hand shops? :o
oh my gosh. /me runs off to the dkny store
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on March 12, 2008, 09:08:54 AM
second hand shops? :o
oh my gosh. /me runs off to the dkny store
R >:D

Rats, I didn't move quick enough, Rachael got all the dkny stuff, all that's left for Z is the Jaques Pennee' rack....  :P :(

Z

man in dress still gets ma'amed by me....i second that Zythra.. i can't stand ties either, makes me wonder who the idiot was who thought men enjoyed getting them every holiday/birthday. since i'm a woman, buy me some damned jewelry!!!!!!!!!!! lol



Mickie

Ties were invented by the same person who created high heels.  And I like thrift shops / vintage stuff.  People here throw away so much stuff it ain't funny.  I find things with the tags from Macy's still on them.  DKNY even.  I'm not immune to buying nice things, but I want to make sure I'm buying quality, not just a label.  I love shopping, but I loathe to buy anything.  I have a rule that if I bring something home, I have to get rid of something else.  Keeps all that materialism in check.

have to agree with you on that one Tekla, quality is important and definitely got to keep your closet in order, I sure don't want to be on the next episode of What Not To Wear.........lol




Mickie

Quote from: Zythyra on March 12, 2008, 08:13:09 AM
Why people even have issues with perceived men wearing dresses is beyond my comprehension. I mean, it's just a skirt!! I don't like ties. Suppose I start ripping off people's ties when I see them wearing them...  >:D

Z

Go for it.  Then we can use the ties to make dresses.  I think some ties are silk.   Oooooh.

^Yea, some high end brands have clothes that get messed up in one wash...

I prefer quality and style the most! People don't really look at what brand your wearing(that was high school)--- They look if your clothes are in style and if they look nice.

you wear your clothes more than once?


ew
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on March 12, 2008, 01:33:46 PM
you wear your clothes more than once?


ew
R >:D

Rachael, Better cover your ears... absolutely, yes!  >:D

Z

*dies*
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on March 12, 2008, 01:43:20 PM
*dies*
R >:D

Poor Rachael  ;)

Z

Quote from: Rachael on March 12, 2008, 01:33:46 PM
you wear your clothes more than once?

Well, yes. They last longer if one takes them off and washes them every once in a while.

  Nfr

Well, yes. They last longer if one takes them off and washes them every once in a while

This news is really going to change my life.

here was me thinking you throw them out when youve worn them! wow ill save money :D
now whats this 'washing machine' contraption?
R >:D

I'm asking the maid about that even as we speak.

i think if no one else has gathered, Rachael is a high maintenance lady...lol, hope you find someone who does the housework for you...lol.



Best Wishes,
Mickie

haha Rach is a girl after my own heart. you go girl!

Quote from: mickie on March 12, 2008, 06:23:04 PM
i think if no one else has gathered, Rachael is a high maintenance lady...lol, hope you find someone who does the housework for you...lol.



Best Wishes,
Mickie

PFt, why pay servants and bark yourself? oh hangon....
R >:D

Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 05:30:19 PM
I'm asking the maid about that even as we speak.

that's not a maid.  It's your reflection in a full length mirror.      :laugh:

Alas and alack, too, too true.  But I'm below low maintenance, I'm less-than-zero maintenance.  I not only know how to use a washer, I can fix them when it comes to that.

Well see, Back when I was a kid there was no such thing as doing girls work or boys I had my share of doing house work, including the laundry and sometimes the cooking but the bestest part was watching my sister put on her boots to go out a split wood. But as it turned out my sister preferred to be outside doing stuff with my dad while I did whatever needed done around the house. I got to be very close to my mom, she truly was a very special and wonderful lady.

Cindy

Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 12:18:49 AM
Hey, I kinda like old ST.  She is not bad. 

The next time someone gets on my case about being trans, asking how can anyone claim they feel like a woman, I'll just play them Shania's song "Man! I Feel Like a Woman!" in which she explains the concept at some length.

Quote from: Shania TwainThe best thing about being a woman
Is the prerogative to have a little fun and...

Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy-forget I'm a lady
Men's shirts-short skirts
Oh, oh, oh, really go wild-yeah, doin' it in style
Oh, oh, oh, get in the action-feel the attraction
Color my hair-do what I dare
Oh, oh, oh, I wanna be free-yeah, to feel the way I feel
Man! I feel like a woman!

I still have nightmares about my Father singing along to that track at full belt whenever we went on long journeys (he is an avid country fan)

R >:D

Now I'm going to have nightmares about British people singing country music.

--shudder--

:P

Do they even have dusty roads and old Ford trucks in England?

Dunno... i was trying to hide from sight of the window....
R >:D

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 13, 2008, 11:57:51 AM
Now I'm going to have nightmares about British people singing country music.

--shudder--

:P

Do they even have dusty roads and old Ford trucks in England?

They have lovely little winding roads out in the meadows, where the grass is lush and green and there would not be a Ford pick-up in sight anywhere.  It is so picturesque, its heavenly. *sigh*

Now here in Australia, it is practically a dust bowl especially in rural areas!  Macho men drive either Ford or Holden and nothing in between.  ::)

The Tasmanian countryside would be the closest we have to anything like the U.k, and thats another world away!  :)

And a 'man in a dress' would sure cause a stir in rural areas but some of these people are the biggest softies and really kind hearted.  I don't think that's necessarily so in urban areas.  Probably my pet hate would be 'suburbia', now that is where homophobia and transphobia is rife!  The heartland of the husband and wife and 2.4 kids.  ::)