Susan's Place Transgender Resources

nowdays, science and modern medicine,+ internet+ makes ts start their transition at a young age.that means their appearance will not be  different than natal woman's. So stealth will be an easy option.Do you believe that in the future stealth ts will be a LOT more than in the past? Because, if it is easy to go stealth basen on appearance criteria, then the choice is only phycological.
what do you believe.

Good question hon.

I think it will depend very much on the person, as you say, but as society becomes more and more exposed to us, and get more used to and accepting of us, it will gradually become easier for us to be open about our pasts. That won't happen immediately though. Medical science is wah ahead of social acceptance, and as such you will probably see a huge increase in stealthy ex-trans people, and in trans people overall. Then gradually, as those who are out and open make us an everyday thing, more and more people will feel comfortable with not being stealth. That's my fervent hope, anyway.

sence the 50's we have come a long way. but we still have long way to go. there is still too much negitivity that we have to concure in this world. it how ever seams to be tolerated to a degree in a few larger citys. (notice I said "tolerated" but not excepted) but when you start to get into the outskirts you find even more perdjustice. my sister still does not understand this. even with the media coverage.  but it is as I tell her like how some people see the Jewish people,  the mormons, blacks, mexican. etc. the list can goes on.  people have too much that they have to overcome from their teachings   I call it the sins of the fathers.  some were it needs to stop.  but maby in time there will be exceptance with everything  this is one thing that I do believe that there needs to be a hate bill atached to it all. something to give the shock treatment that harm will not be excepted to any of us and not just the transgendered.  I still see hitler and his gastopes running around out there even in the good ol USA. ( I thought we faught to get rid of this thinking)
just my two cents
take care ya all
Kristin

I think in the future no one will care. If you are trans or not. I would imagine that the way you present yourself would be who you are.
Sheila

Sheila
one could only hope.  not just yet in our time. look how some of us are alone then there are thouse that are lucky that they find exceptance. usaly in some of the bigger city's.  it is a nightmair that we all have to go through. even when we are not shure even about what we are going through "who do we trust "  there is danger behind every corner from most of society because of the labels that have been put on us. we didn't lable ourselfs we were labeled by society in general  I have met a few people that are excepting then there are thouse that are excepting to your faice (carefull when you turn your back) then there are thouse that just flat call it as they see it (the most dangerious). when we develope a relationship with another person we have to be honest with that person just as we have to be honest with our selfs  this is something that we can not in all realty hide   if we aren't truthfull and they find out then were is the trust in the relationship   I know a few sisters just dont tell and I worry about them when it is found out (if it is)  I have known a few sisters that have been honest (resently) and they are no longer with us ( this is why I suport the hate bill) but in the same breath there are a few that do have a life a real life  but even of thouse there are thouse that have had to move or were hurt by someone that they care about    no matter were we go we have to be verry carefull (basicaly keep a set of eyes in the back of our heads).  personaly I am a country girl and were I live it is tollerated as long as they dont  and aren't confronted with it   I tryed the city life once and I can truthfully say it isnt for me but then it isnt for everyone.  I have had to faice the negitivity from famely and friends my whole life lost famely after friends and famly to were I only have my imediat famely but I am thankfull that I have at least that. I guess in reality that we have to be carefull no matter were we go. there are thouse few that are realy dangerious to us as well as themselfs
it doesnt mean that we cant trust but we need to be carefull were ever we go
TTFN
Kristin

I believe that we will always be visible.  There will always be people who abhor us.  That's just how it is.  If we are different in any way, there will be antagonism.  That's natural selection at work.  Yes, hate and love are both learned traits.  Naturally, self preservation is key.  Perception of something different plays into self preservation.

The only way we've been able to grow as a society is to somehow manage the hatred that we learn to develop.

I do think however, that within two or three generations, people like us will face very little objection in society in general.  In many cases, a transgendered person will be able to live in stealth if he or she chooses to do so.

Cindi

Cindi, you said what I was thinking. I do know that discrimination will always be around. Look at the Jewish religion, you would think that people would not discriminate on a religion that has been around for thousands of years. They do, but they are accepted by the general public, just like I think we will in the future. Yes, it will take a couple of generations but look what we have accomplished in the last 20 years. I sometimes think that it will not take a couple of generations, but I'm really optimistic about life. I live my life in the open and in a fairly small town. I go everywhere and I don't know if I pass all that well. I believe I do, but I'm no beauty queen either. Lets just pray or meditate or whatever you do in hopes of curing discrimination. It will take a miracle, but I believe in miracles.
Sheila

Sooo, how long until we reach that "future"?  one year, five, ten, fifty, one hundred, two million.  Until that time, I will continue to live in stealth!  :P

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on March 11, 2008, 09:55:06 PM
Sooo, how long until we reach that "future"?  one year, five, ten, fifty, one hundred, two million.  Until that time, I will continue to live in stealth!  :P

tink :icon_chick:

I'm thinking that within two or three generations, it will be pretty much a non issue.  Of course by that time, I'll not be here for anyone to hold this opinion against me! ;)

In real years that would be 40 to 60 years.

Cindi

Given:  That more information, on more people, has never been as accessable as it is now.

Given:  That search engines will become better, more powerful, and more accurate.

Given:  That Moore's Law is correct.

Then, the future of stelth is damn close to zero.

Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 12:28:31 AM
Given:  That more information, on more people, has never been as accessable as it is now.

Given:  That search engines will become better, more powerful, and more accurate.

Given:  That Moore's Law is correct.

Then, the future of stelth is damn close to zero.

You are probably correct as far as information is concerned.  But I do believe that there will come a day when this TG thing isn't terribly important to most people and they will let us live our lives as "normal" people.

There will then be another diabolical issue to slay.  It might be health care criminals who are a drain on the social system.... you know those terrible people who have diabetes or genetic diseases who soak up health care resources.  Who knows.  But I honestly believe that most people will see or hear a TG and not even care.

Cindi

Hey Cindi, I'm almost there now.  I don't know a lot of people who live here who care one way or the other.  We try to let people be what it is - whatever it is - that they want to be.  Seems fair, if nothing else.

Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 12:56:38 AM
Hey Cindi, I'm almost there now.  I don't know a lot of people who live here who care one way or the other.  We try to let people be what it is - whatever it is - that they want to be.  Seems fair, if nothing else.

Where do you live?  On the moon?  It has to be the bay area or NYC. Even at that, there is still plenty of hatred to go around in those areas.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 12, 2008, 12:46:45 AM

Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 12:28:31 AM
Given:  That more information, on more people, has never been as accessable as it is now.

Given:  That search engines will become better, more powerful, and more accurate.

Given:  That Moore's Law is correct.

Then, the future of stelth is damn close to zero.

You are probably correct as far as information is concerned.  But I do believe that there will come a day when this TG thing isn't terribly important to most people and they will let us live our lives as "normal" people.

There will then be another diabolical issue to slay.  It might be health care criminals who are a drain on the social system.... you know those terrible people who have diabetes or genetic diseases who soak up health care resources.  Who knows.  But I honestly believe that most people will see or hear a TG and not even care.

Cindi

I agree Cindi that a time will come where people will know and not bat an eyelid.  It's even happening now, some places most people don't seem to care.  A friend of mine works with a transguy, he went through the whole transition and used the male toilets as his changes became more evident and not one person made any nasty comments or trouble.  [Edit:still lots of ignorance around, I live it so I know what its like to experience it, but I have hope the next generation will not suffer so.  :( ]

But I would like to add I do not like the idea that anyone can find out information about a person!  Its just not right!  We've had people here who have been sacked because while working in a government job they were discovered looking up personal details about their neighbours and friends!!  One was actually using this information against this person and thats how it was uncovered.  Will there ever be any privacy?  ???

Quote from: buttercup on March 12, 2008, 01:04:40 AM
Will there ever be any privacy?  ???

No.

"And always the great Eye, watching everything. Everyone.
It sees all, hears all. There is nowhere you can hide."

This is going to be one of the biggest challenges we face this century.

Privacy is now gone.  The only saving grace is that they'll have so much data that it will have little use.  It's sort of like trying to figure out how genes work.  Sure, data mining will give the big guys access to trends and the ability to bag a few bad guys.  But for the average person like us, where is the interest?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't think they should have the data.  I never have.  I'll fight their "right" to access in every way that I can.

Cindi

Quote from: deniz on March 11, 2008, 10:25:06 AM
nowdays, science and modern medicine,+ internet+ makes ts start their transition at a young age.that means their appearance will not be  different than natal woman's. So stealth will be an easy option.Do you believe that in the future stealth ts will be a LOT more than in the past? Because, if it is easy to go stealth basen on appearance criteria, then the choice is only phycological.
what do you believe.

I thought that was the whole point of the exercise no matter what age you are....

Well i understand that most of you think that being ts will not be an issue in the future.no big deal.acceptance
however, to me, acceptance is sth more than ''ok. you are ts.i am ok with it,no prob.but stay off me and my friends-children etc''
of course nowdays, things are better.
hOwever, i still have not met anyone (at least in my country) to tell him i am ts and remain the sweet loving character he used to be( i mean in love affairs).it;s a shame.and if you think i am deceitful then hell i am. narrow minded education and religion made me the way i am.and i will fight my right to deceive others in order to be treated and loved the way i should have been.shame on me??i don;t know.maybe.

Hey, I absolutely agree. I won't be revealing my status to anybody but people I have learned and I'm absolutely sure I can trust with the information. Religion and culture can be abolutely devestating, and quite a bit of why I was so upset this weekend was informed by multiple confrontations with the type.

Nobody, well I anyway, cannot blame you for wanting to be stealth, even to people you love. Back home in the vast majority, if not all of South Africa, the only safe proposition would realistically be stealth for me as well. Big, cosmopolitan cities like London or NYC or Taipei tend to shield us from the realities in most of the rest of the world.

lady amarant you are right you have to absoulty trust the people and even believe that they wont be one thing to your faice and another pereson behind your back   we need to be truthfull  yes the times have changed from when we were younger, but at the same time we are not there yet.  but in the same breath if we develop a relationship with some one we need to be just as honest with them as we need to be to ourselfs. that inside its self can be on the edge. we can think that we know someone, but we do not have the ability to read their mind's.  I personaly because I have lived there in citys like seattle DC (our glorious captial((HA!!)) richmond va  new york  etc think that it is more tolerance than exceptance and yes maby as it was said when will there be true exceptance 0ne year two years five years or a decade.
Deniz you also said it you are being causious because you value your life you are being truthfull with yourself.   you seam to know and understand just what hate that there is by a few for us if you dont mind my quoting you "hOwever, i still have not met anyone (at least in my country) to tell him i am ts and remain the sweet loving character he used to be( i mean in love affairs).it;s a shame.and if you think i am deceitful then hell i am. narrow minded education and religion made me the way i am.and i will fight my right to deceive others in order to be treated and loved the way i should have been.shame on me??i don;t know.maybe."
Cindi our privicy was gone in the 1960's with a bill that was passed it was called the clarence  m kelly act (the freedom of imformation act)  here in the good Ol USA   you from what I have read   moved  aparently because of the negitivity and I hope that yur jornies to get your imformation are going well  I dont know if it was because of them  but I know how the Mormons believe and the labels that they put on others that dont believe the way they do I know this first hand because my SO was and I say was Mormom and that as far as I know is the capitol of the mormons
Hell pay thirty dollers and you can know just about everything about that person  hell even about the last time that they wiped their kitty and how many sheats that were used
stealth is a good thing but in the same breath we dont want to go back into hiding like we were before some of us started finding exceptance with our selfs and who we realy are   but we need to be very carefull with who we share with and in a relationship we have no choice but to share  as I said were would be the trust in that relationship
any way I am sorry that I pored it out as I said I lost a good sister that let her gaurd down and I have learned from her   I just do want to see that any sisters are lost anymore
TTFN
Kristin

There are still young Ts people not going stealth.... then again, some are... its down to the individual. i think the numbers of stealth will slowly fall as society accepts transsexuality as a normal medical problem that doesnt make the person any different to thier actual sex.... by that point, there wont be any need i guess.
R >:D

Yeah i live in the Bay Area, North Beach, SF to be exact (and I also spend half my time up north in Sonoma Country, which is also pretty liberal).  It might as well be the moon.  And yes, there are people who hate everywhere, but big cities do have a lot more people, who are a lot busier, and have better things to do for the most part.

Once you get used to it (and it can be just about anything) a lot of that fear, hate and novelty wears off. 

My university just passed its 'gender friendly' policy (my wording for the policy ^_^) and while a massive majority voted for it, 280 still went against... hate will never go away.
R >:D

They may have reasons other than just pure 'hate' - such a policy is a political policy, and can have people oppose it on political grounds.  They may have not found it inclusive enough, or too exclusive, or that it didn't go far enough, or have strong enough punishments attached.

And people have a right to like, or not like what things they choose.  I hate yuppies, but I don't key the Hummers when I pass by them.  Though I do stand there and laugh my ass off watching people try to park them.

tekla  that is fine as I said for the larger citys  but one has to relise that we are everywere in the world what would you have us do  sedergate (sp?) us to just a few citys   wouldnt that just be doing what is wanted   the city of the damed     wouldnt that be adding fule to the system   people need to be real we are every were and not all of us want to be forced to go were it is tolerated   isnt it the fact that most of us just want a normal life   for some it needs to be done in stealth  there will come a time that it will be more understood  but this is not the time  as  I said I am a country girl I like my horses I like the country pace (not a lot understand this is much slower)  the men are just that men and they are cute also. your right there are people that hate everywere  this is our curse I for one will not give in and be forced to live were I will not be happy a place that doesnt feel like I am at home   two many are forced to leave their famularty just because they took the steps to find exceptance of them selfs  is this fair    it is a nice dream that John Lennon had  but look at what happened   he did become a marter for the reason which is not a bad deal but look at  his son and his wife  and their life loss   look at the truth of our losses havent we lost enough sisters and brothers because they were trying to find exceptance in our world
TTFN
Kristin 

um... There are no punshments attached, it was merely a referenda to attach gender expression and identity to the unions gay friendly policy. That on union grounds, inollerance to a persons gender identity and expression will not be um, tollerated... point was it was hugely passed, a big step forwards... my point was that some people are and will always be intollerant...
in america there is still racism rife... good example

R >:D

Sociologically, there are two avoidant ways of dealing with stigma: passing and covering.  Where the stigma is cross-gender behavior, the ultimate form of passing is going stealth.  The usual form of covering is staying in the closet.  Both of these are avoidant because they do not deal with the stigma, but rather avoid dealing with it.  Avoidant behavior is almost always marked by sentences like, "I'm not ______."  We have all heard it in things like, "I'm not a transsexual.  I'm a woman."

Neither of these approaches is psychologically healthy because they involve a rejection of a part of the sense of self and a lowering of self-esteem.  Alternative to this, a person may accept the stigma in one of two ways.  One of them involves internalizing the stigma and labelling the self as deviant, with the consequent lowering of self-esteem.  The other alternative is to reinterpret the stigma and use it as a driving force to create change.  This does not result in lowered self-esteem, but rather the drive to remove society's stigmatizing of this characteristic.  The end result is someone who becomes an activist.

Most of the people in the world live in large cities.  Americans have been urban since 1920.  So large cities, not rural areas are the norm, and that is becoming more true all the time at that. 

If you could be reasonably free and safe (as safe as anyone else) in the Bay Area, Sacto, and LA/SD, then that is by far the majority of the people in California.  But there are people in here from Wyoming, so its not all an urban deal.  And I'm not proposing any sort of gay or trans ghetto, and as time goes on and things become more common a lot of that goes away.  SF once had three huge gay areas, the Castro, Polk Street, and the Folsom Street deal.  Now its pretty much down to the Castro, and at that, half of the people there now are straight.  Other than ->-bleeped-<-shack (which is sadly going away) there is not a huge TG scene, as you can pretty much go anywhere you want, there is no need for places are are exclusive.

What is so wrong with just living your life, without drawing attention to yourself.  Not everyone is an activist and needs to be in front of everyone's face.

Now it would be a problem if you ignored another transsexual who was in harms way, just to hide your status.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Lisbeth on March 12, 2008, 11:35:07 AM
The other alternative is to reinterpret the stigma and use it as a driving force to create change.  This does not result in lowered self-esteem, but rather the drive to remove society's stigmatizing of this characteristic.  The end result is someone who becomes an activist.

Great post Lisbeth! I like the approach of working toward eventually removing the societal stigma.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 12, 2008, 11:45:03 AM
What is so wrong with just living your life, without drawing attention to yourself.  Not everyone is an activist and needs to be in front of everyone's face.
Sarah L.

When I transitioned, friends asked why I had to draw attention to myself. I don't wear skirts to be an activist, I do it because it's the natural expression of my gender and I feel "right" when I wear certain clothing.

Z

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 12, 2008, 11:45:03 AM
What is so wrong with just living your life, without drawing attention to yourself.  Not everyone is an activist and needs to be in front of everyone's face.

Now it would be a problem if you ignored another transsexual who was in harms way, just to hide your status.

Sarah L.

Good points Sarah......

Quote from: Lisbeth on March 12, 2008, 11:35:07 AM
Sociologically, there are two avoidant ways of dealing with stigma: passing and covering.  Where the stigma is cross-gender behavior, the ultimate form of passing is going stealth.  The usual form of covering is staying in the closet.  Both of these are avoidant because they do not deal with the stigma, but rather avoid dealing with it.  Avoidant behavior is almost always marked by sentences like, "I'm not ______."  We have all heard it in things like, "I'm not a transsexual.  I'm a woman."

Neither of these approaches is psychologically healthy because they involve a rejection of a part of the sense of self and a lowering of self-esteem.  Alternative to this, a person may accept the stigma in one of two ways.  One of them involves internalizing the stigma and labelling the self as deviant, with the consequent lowering of self-esteem.  The other alternative is to reinterpret the stigma and use it as a driving force to create change.  This does not result in lowered self-esteem, but rather the drive to remove society's stigmatizing of this characteristic.  The end result is someone who becomes an activist.

Dont know about you love, but i feel perfectly healthy identifying solely as a girl... no part of my perosnality is trans sex.... its not a part of who i am about as much as i dont define myself by the flu that kept me in bed 2 weeks ago.....
You are right, they are avoidance, but why do you HAVE to deal with stigma?
If you are only seen as your true gender, why should someone who identifys as that gender go around anouncing 'see im actually a guy under all this' which is what transsexual means to a large part of the public. whats the point? why does it matter? if they see a girl, you feel like a girl, why tell them different?

Thats my current tack... i dont tell them and they dont ask. nobody assumes im anything but a regular girl, i see little point in invalidating my identity by revealing something from my past that is nolonger relevant...
its like juvenile criminal records are expunged at 21... its no longer relevant, neither is that part of my past, it was wrong, its gone now... who i am is relevant, your friends with rachael the girl, not x the boy....
R >:D

Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 11:40:55 AM
Most of the people in the world live in large cities.  Americans have been urban since 1920.  So large cities, not rural areas are the norm, and that is becoming more true all the time at that. 

If you could be reasonably free and safe (as safe as anyone else) in the Bay Area, Sacto, and LA/SD, then that is by far the majority of the people in California.  But there are people in here from Wyoming, so its not all an urban deal.  And I'm not proposing any sort of gay or trans ghetto, and as time goes on and things become more common a lot of that goes away.  SF once had three huge gay areas, the Castro, Polk Street, and the Folsom Street deal.  Now its pretty much down to the Castro, and at that, half of the people there now are straight.  Other than ->-bleeped-<-shack (which is sadly going away) there is not a huge TG scene, as you can pretty much go anywhere you want, there is no need for places are are exclusive.

The majority does not equal normal. Ask the people who fought Germany. Sometimes being human puts you in a very small minority. Beware of propaganda and marketing, perhaps large cities are the least enjoyable way to live.

Hi yah all,
Me myself, I don't believe in a universal right to know everything about other people, or others to know about me.   Like privacy.  Those people we have close relationships of any kind if they care may have a claim to a need to know about me being transgender and I have a need for them to know for me to beable to be myself.    Strangers who live in the neighborhood where I live may gain knowledge of my being transgender if I don't close my blinds and can be viewed in public.   Work doesn't have a need to know unless I have a need for them to know, like I go to work as a women.

Besides I am a stranger in a large city, so many people probably don't care, especially if they don't have to deal with me on a personal basis like I keep it to myself when I ride the city bus.   At sixty one, I might live another thirty years, but I as I become older most people don't really care about me, because I am becoming less of a use to society.   As I get older I am being treated more as helpless little old lady because of my age and not my gender identity so I might as well present myself as one.   I really feel myself starting to become transparent, except for the people I live with.

I chat with strangers, because my job makes it necessary, and I may need to give and get help in case of disaster large or small when I may need to cooperate with others to get us all out of the mess.    Then we don't have to talk for the rest of our natural lives, if we don't feel the need to.  The image of a bunch of city people sitting on a bus that is sinking into the river  thinking I can't talk to my neighbors, its not done, so we all drowned because we need each other to escape, a bit farsical.

People see what they see, and think what they think, about me what does it matter.   I have spent my life as a soldier in the war against ignorance in public schools.   Some people just can't ever be convinced that you have to borrow when you subtract and vow never to do so.  Only the calculator is a pill that over comes this malady.

I have spent my life trying to explain myself to people, and found that most people don't care.   So I surrender and only do it when it helps my survival.

Luv Michelle

Enough Michelle, you have

Lisbeth;

Thank you very much for this (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,29090.msg210287.html#msg210287) explanation.

On another note, the woman in this story below had no option of going 'stealth'.  She is a TV reporter covering a murder story, and was attacked because she's African American.  How do you 'stealth' that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTP90IL9ylg

Karen

i think the fact that they were harrassing the family of a murder victim didnt help things...
R >:D

this just goes to show the ignorance of prople in general   people are so bent on hate that they cant except the reality of life   I as one will live the dont ask wont tell   unless there is a relationship with some one and then even then I will  even be scaired of the outcome    I will continue to make my self as invisible to the publics eyes as I can with out denieing who I am    and I will continue to live on my farm  were I feel as safe as I posibly can  I have excepted that no matter were we go we will never be safe (in this time)  but I will never feed into sedergation that would only feed the hate
Kristin