Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I got to thinking on my way to the grocery store...  (Always a dangerous thing for this girl!  ;))

Assuming that my son is transgendered, and I think that is a reasonable working hypothesis, this would help support the idea that ->-bleeped-<- is genetic.

Everyone receives an "X" chromosome from their mother.  This would suggest that the "Y" chromosome, which comes from the father, is the source of the genetic code(s) in question; at least in regards to my son.  I wonder if my "Y" chromosome is a true Y that has been modified by meiotic crossing over, or is my Y chromosome really a damaged "X" chromosome!  Perhaps, I am an "XX" male - with one of my "X" chromosomes lacking just information to make me a biological woman but enough code to make me psychological female.  Wouldn't that be cool!

If there are any experts on genetics here at Susan's, I would love to hear their take on this!

Chaunte

Based on past comments, I know that a lot of my brothers and sisters here at Susans think that discussions around why ->-bleeped-<- exists are ... perhaps ... unproductive.  Regardless of the reason, the fact is that we DO exist.  The argument can be made that my energies would be better spent getting on with life.  Accept my ->-bleeped-<- and decide how I will express it.

There is a lot to be said for that position, and that is the bottom line for all of us here.  For me, I also want to know why & how.  It's my insatiable curiosity about the universe and how it works that forces me to ask questions like this.  Curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought her back!

wow its so funny you wrote that because i was just going to post that i saw my little Cousin  today and she is 5 years old she reminds me of myself ever since she was 3 she has been wairing her brothers clothing and asked questions like when am i going to turn into a boy already?last month her mother baned her from "crossdressing" she is afraid something is wrong with her .today my cousin asked me if she cuts her hair will she become a boy because if it would she wants to do it . she always talks to me about things like that she is only five but i know she understands me and knows even though nobody else does children know more than we think .i was going to post this because i wanted to know if it is genetic.:)
 
jaded

I'm not a genetic expert, but ocassional "flawed" genes are necessary for the human race to survive. Conditions affecting the human race is constantly changing and there are times when humans with the "flawed" genes can better adapt to changes and the lineage of "normal" genes die off. This happens all the time with all living things since the the first appearing of life on this planet.

So there you have it. We're perfectly normal, and necessary.

Chaunte,

From what I've read there is no reliable evidence of genetics playing a major role in producing transgendered humans.  I believe this conclusion was reached by studying the offspring and near realtives of known transsexuals to see if it predictably happens in certain family groups but not in others.

But I just had a thought when I read your comment, " I wonder if my "Y" chromosome is a true Y that has been modified by meiotic crossing over, or is my Y chromosome really a damaged "X" chromosome!"  Could it be that the susceptibility of having some genetic material that can be changed under certain conditions be hereditary?  If it were only the susceptibility to change rather than the change itself that was inherited, that would explain why studies looking at the pattern of transsexualism in families would not show a predictable pattern.  We may just be the lucky ones that came through under the right conditions!

I realize that this is just a bit of speculation right now but maybe the work being done with the mapping of the Human Genome will eventually get around to looking at this issue.

helen

I'll be glad when they do find the 'fer shure" cause of transsexualism.  (At least, our Intersexed brothers and sisters can point to more easily identified chromosomal, congenital adrenal hyperplasia, androgen insensitivity, etc. anomalies.  We're still waiting for more DES studies and brain dissection studies and hormone studies.  Little money for TS research.

The theory that differences in our MTF and FTM brain development is caused by time critical in utero hormonal imbalances makes sense and matches (I think) with DES disruptor studies and the effects of HRT byproducts in waste water on fish.  Fascinating stuff, but we need lots more proof before the Fred Phelpses of the world would ever be convinced that we are part of God's great plan.

Quote from: reikirobyn on May 07, 2006, 11:20:15 AM
I'll be glad when they do find the 'fer shure" cause of transsexualism.  (At least, our Intersexed brothers and sisters can point to more easily identified chromosomal, congenital adrenal hyperplasia, androgen insensitivity, etc. anomalies.  We're still waiting for more DES studies and brain dissection studies and hormone studies.  Little money for TS research.

The theory that differences in our MTF and FTM brain development is caused by time critical in utero hormonal imbalances makes sense and matches (I think) with DES disruptor studies and the effects of HRT byproducts in waste water on fish.  Fascinating stuff, but we need lots more proof before the Fred Phelpses of the world would ever be convinced that we are part of God's great plan.

I couldn't agree more.

Chaunte

Isn't what we're in fact talking about here intersexism misidentified as transexualism? A person with an XXY chromosome sequence, or a male with XX or a female with XY would all (as my understanding goes) clasify as chromosomally intersexed. So if a person labels themselves as being transgendered for having traits/feelings/etc of the oppoiste gender, when in fact if there is a genetic explanation, wouldn't they actually reclassify as intersexed? And it seems more likely that a chromosomal abnormality like intersexuality is inheritable... so the question switches from "is transexuality inheritable?" to "is a particular case of transexuality actually a case of intersexuality, which might be inheritable?"

This topic really caught my attention, because like others here, I've found out (recently) about a family history of this, so I'm going to have my chromosomes checked when I see my endo (for the first time :)) at the end of the month.

Of course, what it comes down to is looking for validation -- but wouldn't it be nice to actually find it?

Hi All,

This is a very good topic. First let me say, I am both Intersexed by definition, and Trans by definition. I have observible biological differences, such as a testicle, and a partially formed prostate, but I also had a ovary, (due to a med emergency it was removed when I was 21) I was defined as a "female" when born, and by time I was around 4 I  knew I was a boy without a doubt in my mind.  My biological differences were not evident at birth, but they became evident during puberty and what not.  But I am still part of the trans community because I had to transition my status, and aspects of my body.  While for me it was all medically needed, ( thank god because i sure had no money to pay for things) it was still a transition.of my sex status.

I do not like the word Intersexed because it is my firm belief that we are ALL intersex, and when I say ALL of us, I mean every single human being on the earth.  It is just that we all fall in different places on a identity scale.  Some have more mixed traits than others. In my resent book that is coming out I use the term Ambiguous Biological Identity to describe what people call Intersex today. I did it for a reason and I think it comes clear when we think about the very question that is being raised here.

We cannot currently "observe" all things that define our "sex/es". I do believe that in time technology will find that Transsexuals ( as defined today) are infact a ratio form of Intersexed beings, that are not as obvious in observation as those that are currently defined Intersexed, but are more mixed (intersexed) than those that we consider closer to the "average" male/female as socially defined. What separates the two is limited ability of observing identity traits. This is also why I believe that the majority of TS people are not "suffering from a Dysphoria" but are in fact a natural part of human nature.

Alice Dormet Dreger has an excellent book that talks about the historical research dating back as far as the 1700's and further, it shows that there is no way to clearly snap a line on what a female is and a male is obsolutely. We are all on a spectrum, but we cannot yet "see" what all creates our sexual identity.
Everytime the science of man has attempted to, there has been cases arise that blows it out of the water.

I personally believe that when we do increase our understanding of the creation of sex identity, we will see that it is so fluid that there is simply no way to "fix" it into place.

I too look forward to the day that they advance the scientific understanding of the nature of our identities as others have mentioned here. It will stop a lot of un needed suffering.

Peace,

Taylor

Taylor,
     Very well said! I think I will print what you posted and send it to my girlfriend's sister who claims to be doing transsexual research online. She says she is trying to understand, but obviously is not accepting as to who or what(meaning me) her sister has become involved in such a way. I only wish I had never met her prior to my transition, but that is a mute point now. I think maybe more of us should have certain tests run to see possibly how differn't some of us are compared to others who are not transgendered. I believe that not to much in life is black and white. That would be too easy. Thanks again for such good info.
                                       Marco

Marco,

You are very welcome!

Peace,
Taylor

Talking about Intersexed persons, I found what Taylor says very ineresitng.

You see, some ppl who first label themselves has TS and later foun out the are IS totally rop the TS label and embrace the IS like it is some sort of lifesver and even feel offende if they are called TS.

Well, you see one interesting thing is this:

Being TS means and transitioning means you were linving in a gender role who doenst corresponded to your brain gender, and then you corrected it.

If by any chance you happens to be Is, then that transition gets a bit more complicate for some, mones will affect you diferent, you migth found some parts for your body are better for your correct gender or worse...

So far even I dont have the complete facts, but my body has developed female since puberty and well, its my good luck ^^ since im TS and finally living has a girl.

   Oh, I hate the genetic cause so much, the scapegoat for everyone's problems. Obesity is on a gene, homosexuality is on a gene, now transgendersm is on a gene? Meiotic Crossing Over, impressive knowledge, to say the least. Yet, crossing over wouldn't cause psychological problems, crossing over doesn't even really play a huge part in determining traits. Judging by your recent posts, I'd say Chaunte is pushing ->-bleeped-<- on her kid. I'm not a troll, trust me, just curious about there things. Now before you smack me with the Ban Hammer, let me ask you, Chaute, as being a transgendered woman, are you any good at math? Or odds? Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised. Sometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic) but come on, this isn't coincidence. You want your kid transgender, you have fun expressing it. Don't pin it on genetics. Pin it on your parents, who had some part in this. Fetish, whatever, its all progressive, you're not flat out normal not normal when your born.

Quote   Oh, I hate the genetic cause so much, the scapegoat for everyone's problems. Obesity is on a gene, homosexuality is on a gene, now transgendersm is on a gene? Meiotic Crossing Over, impressive knowledge, to say the least.

The consensus as to the cause so far is that it is caused by an insufficient  testosterone bath of the fetus during the 12-14th week of gestation.  But there has never been any rock solid proof as to pinpointing the actual cause.  Everyone is still trying to figure it out.  There have been studies done that support the consensus theory. This was just a theory of hers.

QuoteJudging by your recent posts, I'd say Chaunte is pushing ->-bleeped-<- on her kid. I'm not a troll, trust me, just curious about there things. Now before you smack me with the Ban Hammer, let me ask you, Chaute, as being a transgendered woman, are you any good at math? Or odds? Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised.

Sorry, but this is a myth that's been proven over and over again to not be true.  Many (straight) parents attempt to raise their kid just as any other normal kid and this happens.  In twins that are brought up the same, one can be transgendered and the other not.  Same with being gay.

QuoteSometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic) but come on, this isn't coincidence. You want your kid transgender, you have fun expressing it. Don't pin it on genetics. Pin it on your parents, who had some part in this. Fetish, whatever, its all progressive, you're not flat out normal not normal when your born.

I'm sorry you don't understand and are not open-minded enough to try and understand.  Obviously you are not transgendered or you wouldn't have written a post as such.  This is a medical condition and not a fetish (nothing sexual about it).  Transsexual people have the highest rate of suicide of any group because the condition is so taxing on the soul.  Ignorant people who post stuff like you did above are one of the primary contributors to this.  This is something you will most likely probably never understand.

Before you even post back, please take a look at the site rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html).  Your post borders on breaking several rules.  Specifically see the folowing rules:

Quote7. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which of a threatening tone, are obscene, or depict illegal acts will not be permitted.

Quote9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person.

Let me ask you this about yourself.  Could you ever sleep with somebody of the same sex?  Most straight people would say no.  It disgusts them.  Why, because it's not a choice to them either.

Melissa

Hey everyone,

Because transsexualism, transgenderedism, crossdressing has existed throughout the history of mankind, including during times and societies that did not condemn such behavior, I have come to the conclusion that this is is condition of mankind.  That for reasons that are not clear yet, these men and women that feel so strongly they are in the wrong bodies that they have been willing to cross social norms and taboos as well as made into high priests by other cultures.

The fact that there is no cure for the behavior and indeed no one would take the cure even if there was one leads me to conclude that this must have some chromosonal component. Genes are how traits are passed down, and these traits have been passed down generation after generation. Because we can not find the pattern to how it is passed down, does not change the fact that it must be.

If there is another explanation I would love to hear it.  I mean if it were learned behavior, say like religion, where each generation teaches the last. Where what one can do has to do with the written doctrine of the particular religion.  We do not look for the genetic link as to why people are Babtist, or Muslim, or Hindu or whatever other religion they might be.  We understand these are learned behaviors and are subject to change. In fact evangelical religions count on this fact.  Basically, all learned behaviors can be unlearned. Since transsexuality, transgenderedness and crossdressing can not be unlearned, it drives me to beleive they are not learned behavior.

So? If transsexuality, transgenderedness and crossdressing are not learned behavior? And I am not saying this is a certainty, then how else could these behaviors be passed on from generation to generation?

I know that I certainly did not choose to be a transsexual.  I don't remember any event that made me feel I was a transsexual.  I don't know why wearing girls clothes felt so right when I was 11. How did I get the urge to want to do it in the first place?  I thought about wearing those underwear long before i ever put them on. Why was I thinking about that? Clearly not all boys think about wearing their sisters(or mothers) underwear.

Eventually they will figure it out.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Critical_Thinker on June 05, 2006, 01:05:17 AM
   Oh, I hate the genetic cause so much, the scapegoat for everyone's problems. Obesity is on a gene, homosexuality is on a gene, now transgendersm is on a gene? Meiotic Crossing Over, impressive knowledge, to say the least. Yet, crossing over wouldn't cause psychological problems, crossing over doesn't even really play a huge part in determining traits. Judging by your recent posts, I'd say Chaunte is pushing ->-bleeped-<- on her kid. I'm not a troll, trust me, just curious about there things. Now before you smack me with the Ban Hammer, let me ask you, Chaute, as being a transgendered woman, are you any good at math? Or odds? Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised. Sometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic) but come on, this isn't coincidence. You want your kid transgender, you have fun expressing it. Don't pin it on genetics. Pin it on your parents, who had some part in this. Fetish, whatever, its all progressive, you're not flat out normal not normal when your born.

Critical,

As a mater of fact, I AM good at math and calculating probability.  Science and engineering is my specialty and the focus of my degrees.  What's yours?

Who in their right mind would force ->-bleeped-<- on anyone, let alone a child?  You have a helluva lot of nerve suggesting such.  If you read carefully, I reported observation, nothing more.

Flaming someone in their first post is a really poor way of introducing themselves.  When you decide to be civilized, let me know.

Until then, farewell, goodbye and go away.

Chaunte

Quote from: Critical_Thinker on June 05, 2006, 01:05:17 AM...
I'm not a troll
...

I will take you at your word, for now.

Quote from: Critical_Thinker on June 05, 2006, 01:05:17 AM...
Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised.
...

I can not help but think you have had an insufficiently small sampling to come to that conclusion.


But alright, how can TG/Orientation be attributed to how one is raised?  No, seriously.  If it fits for one it should fit for all yes?

I can not see how my upbring and life experiences in general 'pushed' me to want to rearrange portions of my anatomy, change juices and so on. Functionally murder who I was... for what reason? What is the logic? You know, I was raised to be whatever I wanted to be. I did too, I wanted and tried my damnedest to be a man. It was and is my impression that is what this life is all about, after all. Guess what, it didn't work. All pretending to be a guy got me was sorrow. Hurt. Pain. But alright fine, how can I attribute my condition to my upbringing? You know, part of what transition is is stripping away all of the lies that we are fed and have fostered. Do you think so little of my intellectual power as to think I am totally clueless on how I work?

^*shrug* I can not see how one thinks sexual orientation is learned. You know, I liked being heterosexual I really did. It made life so much easier to deal with. But, I had to face it. I am not hetro, I like girls and guys. WHY on earth am I bisexual? what possibly in my life has influenced me like that? Heh. You know my parents are straight. My relatives are straight. Hell, my neighbors have always been straight. Come to that I don't think I have ever met a bisexual person at all. An yet, it does not matter, I like girls and guys. So why is that? How was I raised to like either, or both? ^*chortle*, preferably both. If anything I was raised with tolerance, but I was never pushed in any particular sexual direction by my upbringing. Oh society tried so VERY hard for sure, but my parents did not. Care to guess how much credence I give society?

Why am I a misshapen girl? Why am I bisexual?

I will give you a hint, the only influence my upbringing/life experience has had is to make me hide. Guess what, hide what was already there. Already present before they got their paws on me.


But in that vein I can not see the probability in a genetic answer. This condition knows no boundaries and encompasses the wold over, and yet is rare enough to be odd and noteworthy. BUT that certainly does not mean genetic. I find it far more probable this condition is just one of the dangers (or perhaps wonders depending on your view) of organic birth.

You have to expect variations with organic things after all.

Hello everyone,

Quote from: Critical_Thinker

Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised. Sometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic) but come on, this isn't coincidence. You want your kid transgender, you have fun expressing it. Don't pin it on genetics. Pin it on your parents, who had some part in this. Fetish, whatever, its all progressive, you're not flat out normal not normal when your born.

There is not one shred of evidence to support any claim he/she made. There is no transgendered balance in the brain, that is just silly. He has been watching too many anti-depressant commercials.  There is definitely no evidence to support that anyone raised by women(gay or not) will produce gay children. This is pure dogma.  I challenge our visiting guest to come up with some science to support it.

I have a hard time taking people like that seriously.  The obvious lack of any real information on the subject is apparent.  He is presenting a point of view that represents how he/she thinks people should live based on something he was taught. Sure enough, take a regular kid, and put him with one or even two bigoted parents, or throw in a church that promotes bigotry and there you have it.  No proof necessary.  It's true because they say it's true.

I have a hard time believing that "Critical_Thinker" did any critical thinking, sounds more like repeating rhetoric. I hope he comes back and shows us some real critical thinking by backing up his claims with some studies or some other, at least anecdotal, evidence of his/her claims, but I would say that is highly unlikely.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Not scientific at all, but I don't know a single lesbian couple with a gay or trans child, and I do know lots of lesbian couples with children. Although I know one adult lesbian with a lesbian mother, but she was raised by her mother and her father before her mother came out.

And, there is no actual scientific evidence either that children raised by two women (or two men) are statistically more likely to be gay or trans.

There is some evidence of a genetic link, but it's equally clear that it's not a 1:1 correlation - gay parents, gay kids. As far as trans, the evidence does indicate pre-natal hormone exposure, but it's difficult to test. There is considerable evidence that you cannot force a child to be other than his or her nature. Most notably, that evidence is from Milton Diamond, whose work discrediting John Money is well known.

As far as Chaunte pushing this on her child, she was remarkably restrained in her response. It's highly offensive to impute that to her. That child is just lucky he is growing up in an environment that is not going to judge him for expressing himself.

Dennis

Quote from: Critical_Thinker on June 05, 2006, 01:05:17 AMThats whats doing it, its how you're raised.

Interesting thought, but it doesn't seem to stand up to actual experience. The vast majority of our parents were actually unaccepting of our TSism. Most of us grew up feeling ashamed of our feelings - not encouraged to express them.

QuoteSometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic)...

I don't think its genetic - but I do think it's a hormonal effect on the brain's early development. For many of us, this "feeling" has been with us since our earliest memories. That's difficult to explain away as a fetish or sexually-motivated obsession. But in the end, I just don't know.

I do understand your skepticism. Even being TS, I find it a most curious condition. I try to keep an objective and open mind as well, as I don't like the idea of deluding myself any more that you do. For people who doesn't share these feelings - especially those with religious convictions which run counter to all this - I understand how tempting it is to explain away via unflattering causes.

Keep an open mind. Read around the forum. Educate yourself on what we report, how we feel, when it starts, and so on. See if your ideas and theories hold up to what you read.

Oh man, did my post get deleted? Jeesh. Well, I commend Kate on the calm approach, no use of  big words (which don't need to be used to express an opinion, "Hormone bath during gestation", wow). Oh well, maybe I'll get involved in another topic.

No, your post is still there. Although it was touching some lines, the responses were well thought out and it didn't degnerate into a flame war.

Dennis

I'm a go out on a tree branch here and defend critical_thinker.

He's entitled to his respectfully given opinion just as we are ours.
Afterall we can close our minds to any possiblities if we do that we become no better than those close minded individuals who Judge us. For if we are affraid of opposition then we are afraid to be wrong.

so in regards to ONLY one of his\her comments:

QuoteChaute, as being a transgendered woman, are you any good at math? Or odds? Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised. Sometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic) but come on, this isn't coincidence. You want your kid transgender, you have fun expressing it. Don't pin it on genetics. Pin it on your parents, who had some part in this. Fetish, whatever, its all progressive, you're not flat out normal not normal when your born.

This is quite possible considering children learn by what they see..Mind you Im not saying it's accurate but it is a possibility. But only time will tell that has her son matures into his own personality for as we all know you can only force a person to be what you want them to be for so long....if thats the case.

In any case the individual was at the very least respectful with his\or her opinion

Open to explorer all possibilities
Chynna

Quote from: Chynna on June 05, 2006, 02:54:37 PM
He's entitled to his respectfully given opinion just as we are ours.

I agree with Chynna's statement but this was not stated as an opinion:

Quote from: Critical_Thinker on June 05, 2006, 01:05:17 AMPut two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised.

It was stated as fact, there were no qualifyers, eg "I believe...", "I think...", etc.  These views were disproven decades ago.

True critical thought requires a thorough knowledge of all the pertinent facts.  Critical_Thinker obviously needs to do some more homework.

The Nature/Nurture argument has been going on for decades and the consensus that I see which has emerged is an agreement by all reasonable persons that both, to varying degrees, have a significant effect on the development of human beings.  No one has ever definitively proven what causes transsexualism or homosexuality or even how heterosexuality is formed in humans.  We have more evidence for rather than against the idea that transsexualism is caused by a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.  Has that been tested?  In other primates, yes it has.  But not in humans.  How could a test in humans be done without a very real chance of doing grave harm?  Until someone figures out how to ethically prove that , in humans, the conditions encountered by the fetus during pregnancy cause transsexuality, we'll just have to live with the uncertainty and sometimes wonder and speculate about what it really could be.

helen

HelenW,

I respectfully disagree.

QuotePut two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised.

The phrase "odds are" is indicating that this person is not in fact stating this is definitly a fact. "odds are" indicates this person is aware that there are other possible out comes to this scenerio. However, in his "opinion" he's pretty sure it will happen.

look at it like this Odds are you wouldn't gamble on a sure thing.

However only he knows what he was actually trying to say!
and you have to give the individual credit for at least trying to understand "us" by even carry on a dialect with "us"

Chynna

PS. I do however feel he needs to live up to his name and do some Critical thinking  himself

Excuse me....

As I said, I reported observations.  Nothing more.

Does anyone here really think I would raise my son to be transgendered or gay? 

Does anyone here really believe that this can even be done?!

Ladies and gentlemen, think about the personal hell most of us have gone through in coming to terms with our ->-bleeped-<-!  Did we choose this, or is this something that is innate within us? 
Would any of us really choose to be transgendered?!

Would any of us do this to a child?  Would any parent do this to a child?

Of course not.

Nor does "Chaunte" exist inside the home.  Thus there is nothing to be "picked up on" by him.

I do consider the comments made by "Critical" to be insulting and ingorant.  Maybe bigoted as well.  I consider the entire tone of his note to be a flame.  (I am assuming a particular gender based on wording and text pattern.)

Don't bother responding, "Critical."  You are on my ignore list.  Until proven otherwise, I DO consider you a troll and a petaQ.

Chaunte


Posted at: June 05, 2006, 08:25:54 PM

---

Quote from: Dennis on June 05, 2006, 09:24:47 AM
Not scientific at all, but I don't know a single lesbian couple with a gay or trans child, and I do know lots of lesbian couples with children. Although I know one adult lesbian with a lesbian mother, but she was raised by her mother and her father before her mother came out.

And, there is no actual scientific evidence either that children raised by two women (or two men) are statistically more likely to be gay or trans.

There is some evidence of a genetic link, but it's equally clear that it's not a 1:1 correlation - gay parents, gay kids. As far as trans, the evidence does indicate pre-natal hormone exposure, but it's difficult to test. There is considerable evidence that you cannot force a child to be other than his or her nature. Most notably, that evidence is from Milton Diamond, whose work discrediting John Money is well known.

As far as Chaunte pushing this on her child, she was remarkably restrained in her response. It's highly offensive to impute that to her. That child is just lucky he is growing up in an environment that is not going to judge him for expressing himself.

Dennis

Dennis,

Thank you.  I appreciate that.

Chaunte

#1, a troll. shoulda ignored it.

#2. 'the odds are' were in context of a statement that was indeed presented as 'the facts' -
EG: "THAT'S WHAT'S DOING IT." Saying that the "odds are*" something indicates you know what those odds are. There was no evidence of any odds I might add. *IS. ARE. FACTUAL ASSERTIONS.

and I really don't think it was ultimately anything but a troll, came out the gate deceptively is all.
Wanted to upset some folks he don't like.

Quote from: Critical_Thinker on June 05, 2006, 12:46:25 PM
. Oh well, maybe I'll get involved in another topic.

"maybe I'll go flame some other thread..."

ANd thank you to all my brothers and sisters here.

You have no idea just how much I appreciate your support.

Chaunte

Chaunte,

I do sincerly apologize to you if I have offended you in any way. I did not intend to agree or even suggest that YOU would intentional raise your child to be transgendered or gay. I was just merly pointing out the fact that there are people in this world who do damage thier children.

QuoteDoes anyone here really think I would raise my son to be transgendered or gay? 

Does anyone here really believe that this can even be done?!

I wouldn't believe that there are people who molest, abuse, & even kill children but there are.
So from an outsiders stand point it is "possible" for an individual to force there beliefs or feelings on there children. Im not saying you personnal are in anyway.
So I again hope if I did offend you that you accept my apologie because that was not my intent at all.

Chynna

Quote from: HelenW on June 05, 2006, 03:57:03 PMTrue critical thought requires a thorough knowledge of all the pertinent facts.

As opposed to only those that support one's pre-existing agenda, which this so called "critical thinker" clearly has.

Have you ever noticed that the only people who say "I am not a troll" are trolls?

Annie

Quote from: Chynna on June 05, 2006, 07:48:54 PM
Chaunte,

I do sincerly apologize to you if I have offended you in any way. I did not intend to agree or even suggest that YOU would intentional raise your child to be transgendered or gay. I was just merly pointing out the fact that there are people in this world who do damage thier children.
I wouldn't believe that there are people who molest, abuse, & even kill children but there are.
So from an outsiders stand point it is "possible" for an individual to force there beliefs or feelings on there children. Im not saying you personnal are in anyway.
So I again hope if I did offend you that you accept my apologie because that was not my intent at all.

Chynna

Chynna,

You haven't offended me.  This ... taHqeq simply got my dander up!

I can disagree with people about many things and still call them friend.  Mess with my kids or make unfounded accusations about them, and the warrior comes out.

THat's the problem with being half Irish and half German.  THe Irish side will get angry and the German side will carry it out! 

Chaunte

Quote from: Chaunte on June 05, 2006, 08:32:30 PM


THat's the problem with being half Irish and half German.  THe Irish side will get angry and the German side will carry it out! 

Chaunte

LOL
that IS a harsh combo Chaunte
we've been forewarned people.

I'm just glad I'm on her good side <3

Dennis

Oh, I'm not worried. Chaunte is a good person ...aside from wanting to invade Poland every so often.  ;)

Annie

Quote from: Chaunte on June 05, 2006, 08:32:30 PMTHat's the problem with being half Irish and half German.  THe Irish side will get angry and the German side will carry it out!

ROFL, I love it... SO true. On so many levels, lol...

Quote from: Annie Social on June 06, 2006, 05:10:21 AM
Oh, I'm not worried. Chaunte is a good person ...aside from wanting to invade Poland every so often.  ;)

Annie

I can't help it!  Polish sausage with a good pint of stout is a meal worth going to war over! :icon_evil_laugh:

You know, if you hit someone with a kielbassa you can be charged with "a sausage and battery."
(Say it outloud to appreciate the humor.)

And when the Vikings attacked ol' Erin, we were left feeling Thor.

Chaunte

This is a great thread, for multiple reasons.

The main topic is something I wonder about all the time.  I know little to nothing about genetics, but I still wonder what happened to make me this way.  Something that I have always thought interesting is my mom was so sure that I was going to be a girl that her and my dad didn't even pick a boys name for me.  Although this could be really be anything even her deep desire to have had a girl and nothing to do with genetics and/or hormones during pregnancy, but it does make me think.

While I don't agree with the way Critical_Thinker chose to say it I do wonder if how I was raised affected that part of me.  Not that the part of me that I feel is more female than male would have been gone, but would I have chosen a different way to express it.  I suppose that wouldn't change the fact that I am TG just where on the spectrum I would fall.

It would be fun to know why if for nothing else than to have that knowledge.  The problem would come from what is done with that knowledge (but that is probably another topic all together).


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.

Sometimes I've thought about it, just because I've wondered about some little things. And I guess in some ways it'd be nice to know the physical scientific cause, just as a reassurance and also to know why I turned out this way. But at the same time, I'm hesitant because knowing exactly what causes me to think the way I do sort of... takes away from my self identity. What if they had found that cause in the past... and 'fixed' it? I wouldn't even be 'me', even though it's the same body.

I sometimes feel the same way about psychology and neuroscience in general. Analyzing and knowing why people do things both intrigues me and frightens me. At the rate science is advancing, sometimes I'm worried that we'll understand ourselves so well that we'll hardly think of ourselves as more than advanced machines, and 'free will' will be revealed to be little more than a complicated form of cause and effect. What a thought...

Quote from: Kaitlyn on June 15, 2006, 05:18:52 PM
What if they had found that cause in the past... and 'fixed' it? I wouldn't even be 'me', even though it's the same body.

I remember having that same thought when I started out.  Once I realized I was in complete control of myself and my transition, that fear quickly went away.

Quote from: Kaitlyn on June 15, 2006, 05:18:52 PMAt the rate science is advancing, sometimes I'm worried that we'll understand ourselves so well that we'll hardly think of ourselves as more than advanced machines, and 'free will' will be revealed to be little more than a complicated form of cause and effect.

This is my belief about how insects and other simpler things in nature work.

Melissa

Quote from: michelles on June 15, 2006, 03:58:58 PM
This is a great thread, for multiple reasons.

The main topic is something I wonder about all the time.  I know little to nothing about genetics, but I still wonder what happened to make me this way.  Something that I have always thought interesting is my mom was so sure that I was going to be a girl that her and my dad didn't even pick a boys name for me.  Although this could be really be anything even her deep desire to have had a girl and nothing to do with genetics and/or hormones during pregnancy, but it does make me think.

While I don't agree with the way Critical_Thinker chose to say it I do wonder if how I was raised affected that part of me.  Not that the part of me that I feel is more female than male would have been gone, but would I have chosen a different way to express it.  I suppose that wouldn't change the fact that I am TG just where on the spectrum I would fall.

It would be fun to know why if for nothing else than to have that knowledge.  The problem would come from what is done with that knowledge (but that is probably another topic all together).


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.

Nature versus Nurture is a fair question, especially if it is worded politely.

Looking back to my childhood, I can not think of even a single incident that would suggest nurturing is what has made me tg/ts.  I am absolutely convinced that my father, a psychiatrist, would never have allowed that to happen.  Back in the early 60's, when I was a wee child, this just didn't happen.  ANd, thanks to the Cuban Missile Crisis, my mother conceived a daughter, so there was no maternal desire to have a daughter by hook or by crook.

Of course, a single data point proves nothing either way.  It would make an interesting poll, and I think I will set that up shortly.

Michelles - You are right.  One of the reasons I love this ... home! is because of how people rally around someone in trouble.  Whether it be emotional trouble, physical problems or being harassed by some troll.  Maybe its my naivete, but I think you will find the regular contributors here at Susan's to be some of the most honest and forthright people you will ever meet.

Chaunte

Quote from: Kaitlyn on June 15, 2006, 05:18:52 PM
Sometimes I've thought about it, just because I've wondered about some little things. And I guess in some ways it'd be nice to know the physical scientific cause, just as a reassurance and also to know why I turned out this way. But at the same time, I'm hesitant because knowing exactly what causes me to think the way I do sort of... takes away from my self identity. What if they had found that cause in the past... and 'fixed' it? I wouldn't even be 'me', even though it's the same body.

I agree I have three kids and if there had been the option to "fix" anything about them I know I would have missed out on a world of expierences. 

Quote from: Kaitlyn on June 15, 2006, 05:18:52 PM
I sometimes feel the same way about psychology and neuroscience in general. Analyzing and knowing why people do things both intrigues me and frightens me. At the rate science is advancing, sometimes I'm worried that we'll understand ourselves so well that we'll hardly think of ourselves as more than advanced machines, and 'free will' will be revealed to be little more than a complicated form of cause and effect. What a thought...

I have the same thought, but I am always comforted by the fact that even if we are machines we are way more advanced then we will ever be able to understand and we change every second. 

Quote from: Chaunte on June 15, 2006, 09:38:27 PM
Nature versus Nurture is a fair question, especially if it is worded politely.

Looking back to my childhood, I can not think of even a single incident that would suggest nurturing is what has made me tg/ts.  I am absolutely convinced that my father, a psychiatrist, would never have allowed that to happen.  Back in the early 60's, when I was a wee child, this just didn't happen.  ANd, thanks to the Cuban Missile Crisis, my mother conceived a daughter, so there was no maternal desire to have a daughter by hook or by crook.

I agree, I don't believe there was anything in my childhood that would have made me this way.  What makes me wonder is what the real effect of an answer to a simple question.  My kids ask me questions all the time and I have wondered what my tone, expression, and wording could really effect.  Although I know with my kids, even if I did everything exactly the same, they would all still be completely different people.