Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I know I need a nose job... it's huge, but what else do I need to change?

I don't want to be pretty... just want to be able to go anywhere and not have to worry
about being read.

Do I need Chin/Jaw work?

Is there any hope for me passing?

Photo removed for privacy

If you get harassed, try to figure out what you did wrong and correct it.  Usually we overdress for the occasion. Red really stands out as well.  If you want to get noticed, wear red!  Is this what you wore?

Hmmm... you didn't include your profile, so I can't see that you need a nose job.  Hormones may soften your facial features some and you may not need anything.  I don't know... the pictures show a face with lots of potential without surgery hon.  I'm sorry to break the news to you. ;)

I had a chin very similar to yours.  It  changed as I went through transition.  The cleft sort of went away.  Oh it's still there some, but I needed no surgery to be happy.

Cindi

Thanks for the comments Cindi :) It was by glance alone that I was read so I know it's the way I look. I had on the
same outfit... it is acually hot pink lol... I love bright colors. You're right, maybe I need to avoid standing out.

I don't have a full profile but this shows a little more... trust me my nose is huge  >:(

You can see a little more here

picture removed

Hi Amanda, Welcome to Susan's.
I agree with Cindi, I think that you shouldn't have to many problems passing just the way you are. I know that photos have a way of either revealing to much detail or not enough. but over all from what I see I believe that with just a few adjustments that can be made with make up facially could do much for you without FFS. But then if you can afford FFS by all means, but to be honest I still don't think much in the way of aggressive surgery will be required. How long have you been on HRT? HRT changes quite a lot after a time.

Cindy

I think that you MAYBE need FFS, but its up to you, its not
an absolute necessecity.

Besides the nose, which is not bad at all, its thin so they
won't have to break it (mine was like that too).
the chin makes the face look longer and thinner, but here again
its just a tweek that's maybe needed, bone buring, not cutting.

Just concentrate on what really bothers you, the rest is more
for cosmetic reasons I feel.

Thanks for the welcome Cindy and the kind comments! I've been at Cindy's for awhile but I read a lot and don't
post much :) 

And Keira thanks you so much, I know how much you know about FFS from all your past posts,
I've learned a lot from reading them. And look at you, you're so beautiful, you really put your knowledge to
work!  Your comments make me feel so much better and mean a lot since you know so much about FFS.
I was thinking I needed so much more.

I've been on HRT about two months now but that won't change my nose or any of the other things
that make me look so guyish. When I see my pictures I see a guy with long hair, but I know I need to give HRT time.

I think the nose is a given. But I was thinking that cheek implants would help give my face some width
and it would not be so long and straight. I'd also like to do something with the chin but I'm not sure what
it needs. When I smile it juts out and relaxed it is a little receeded. Would trimming it or an implant help
that? It seems like an implant would make it jut out more when I smile?

I promised myself I would not try to transistion to full time util I was totally comfortable with my looks
and I see so much male that it's hard for me to see how I can ever get there. I think I'm around 50%
passable and most people would still see guy still when they look at me.

As far as I can see, you don't need anything at all. There are woman who look very masculine and there are guys who look very feminine. I don't see any masculinity in your face. You look like a woman. It must have been something else or you just thought it cause someone looked at you funny. Did they actually say that is a man? I did you flinch? How was your walk? You didn't walk like a guy did you? Don't beat yourself up, hon. You look very nice, from your picture.
Sheila

Thank you Sheila.

I could tell it was his first glance that he read me so I know it was not my walk or voice or anything like that. He was
an obvious cross-dresser(6ft/250lbs, black guy, 8" lighted heels, etc) so that may have had something to do with it.

I also have not had any laser/electro yet and I might have had a slight beard shadow. Although when I got to the car I
could not see it. And I was wearing the pink windbreaker that I have on in the pictures and girls jeans and flip-flops. I'm
a little big(for a woman), 5-10/155 which makes me slim but I have no hips or waist, I can wear a size 4 misses but usually
wear size 6M. So I'm not huge. Anyway I was walking behind him about ten feet away and he turned to look down an isle.
He must have caught a glimpse  because he swiveled around so quick to get a better look that I thought
he was going to fall down. LOL. By that time I was right up to him and he smiled and said "hello, how are you".
I said "Fine, how are you" in my best voice. If I was not so mortified at having being read I might have stayed to
chat but I was so embarrassed and shaken I just kept walking. I felt bad because I know he was being nice but I
just wanted to crawl under a rock and hide. There were a lot of people around and I felt like everyone was watching us.
If he had not been so obvious or in an isle alone I would have chatted. But it was horrible and now I'm having a hard
time going out dressed. I know I just need to regain my confidence and do it but I feel very self conscious now.

You know, I don't care about being pretty, or having the best body (althought that would be great :)), but
I just want to "be me" and be able to go anywhere without being read and I guess I've got a ways to go.

Anyway thanks everyone for listening, I love having you guys around!

Amanda

Hi Amanda, you made me smile, you remind of of a doe caught in the headlights of an oncoming car, really, I was the same way when I started out. And please don't get in to much of a hurry to alter your facial appearance until the Estrogen has had time to do it's stuff, which could take anywhere from 2 months to 6 months even longer before it fully take affect. I was underweight, actually I was anorexic and looked awful when I started out full time as Cindy, without the HRT. Once I got on HRT and began a good healthy diet and put on weight I look way different now comparedd to when I began. People now don't even pay me no notice when they walk by, unless I stop to ask them where the bathroom is.

It's all in projection hon, walk proudly with your back arched, chin up slightly, and walk down that side walk like you owned it and you were good Queen Bess.  You will see the difference in how people look at you.  Believe me hon, I have encountered all different kinds of the mixture that makes the human species.
Big, small, in between, black, yellow, white, red, pink, blue, and purple........ scratch the purple, Beatleguisians couldn't make it this year.  Have a wonderful day sweets.  ;D ;D ;D

Cindy

Thanks Cindy... I do feel like a doe in headlights... they are so cute you know. But I'll try to develop the queen bee attitude.

getting rid of the beard will help a lot. im currently doing laser and not only does it help with the blue color but it changes the shape of your face a little. your face currently has thousands of tiny quills stuck in it in the beard area that cause a manly jaw line. im through 2 treatments  and already i can tell a difference.

also... being t/s i am always looking at women wondering 1) how do i stack up, 2) do i like thrie style and how can i use it, and 3)is she really a guy?.... not to be rude, but again.. how do i stack up... there really are some masculine women out there.  ;)

takes one to know one kinda thing with you getting read

Quotealso... being t/s i am always looking at women wondering 1) how do i stack up, 2) do i like thrie style and how can i use it, and 3)is she really a guy?.... not to be rude, but again.. how do i stack up... there really are some masculine women out there.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you asking if I'm really a masculine woman? If so... I love you! I can assure you if I were a GG
the last place I'd be hanging out at is susans :) (no offense to anyone)

If that's not what you're asking I guess I don't get your point.

Oh... and I agree about the beard... I just can't afford it right now.

no...he he..

what i meant is ... that is what i am constantly doing... and i bet the CD that clocked you was thinking similar things.  she was looking for others like her. kinda like when im shopping in the womans section i think that everyone is watching... when really no one cares at all.. everyone has there own s**t to worry about. but i can tell right away if another guy is shopping in the womans section... what im saying is that he clocked you because he was watching for people like himself. i doubt anyone else looked hard enough to read you....

and you ARE a  masculine WOMAN. 8)

Ok... LOL... I can see that, I guess I do the same thing. And you're right I think I can read someone
faster than the general public.

... and I still love you :)

Amanda

Hi Amanda I quite agree with some of that post, After all I have been a avid watcher of both women and men through the years. Some women appearing to be masculine looking, hell I was married to one yeah and made my life quite miserable, but that don't mean that all manly looking women or homely looking women are bad people. There are also some very androgynous women around about as well. As for any that were TS's I would have been danged if I had known until I have met one or two of them at a TS support group. I have noticed pretty well the same trend with guys, from extremely ugly, homely, endogenous, and drop dead gorgeous. So it's little of this an a little of that. And hun believe me that you truly look good and would have no problems passing after a few minor adjustments  like electrolysis get rid of the facial hair. The rest of the meaning in that post from beth06 posted as smart as I think I might be that one kind of escapes me, and I am a brunet too.

Cindy

Posted on: March 18, 2008, 12:04:59 AM

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Hi beth06  OK I guess I was a little slow on the trigger. Thank you for clearing that up for us. I really don't remember the last time I looked around me to see if anyone was watching except when I wear knee length sun dresses in the Summer, kind of nice to see guys still eying me up.  ;D

Cindy

Thanks Cindy, hair removal is on the top of my list, right behind rhino.

After thinking about it a little I realized I do watch women pretty closly and always have. It's
not in a sexual way, but a "gee I like the way she does that" way. I've always been so
envious of girls that have that certain eye movement or expressions that are so feminine. The
side ways glance after a long blink for example. I guess they learn all that a girl school :)

Hi Amanda! I dont think you need ffs. Judging by your pictures you look like a woman to me!

Hi Amanda.

QuoteI can assure you if I were a GG the last place I'd be hanging out at is susans

Well, I am a GG and I have been hanging out here for more than a year. I came across the site by accident and I just love the people here.

As to the surgery I think it would be hard to decide without professional help. Because you just can't visualize the changes on your own face. I know I couldn't. Julie Marie had a thread about a place that she sent pictures and they modified them to show how she would look after various procedures. I think this information would help you a lot.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,24462.0.html

Your face, right now, is within the parameters of other women. I think you would be downright pretty with a little less nose.

Hi Jay my thoughts exactly.

Hi Amanda, "hee, hee," Ya I think woman and girl watching is quite common to us, kind of like window shopping. Well I have done the same with men, I even have one in one of the Yahoo Groups that would kneel before him and just worship him. Beautiful person. 

Hi Ssaraswatidevi, I remember you from a while back. Well I can't say I just happen to stumble on this place but I was doing some research on the subject of TS's when I stumbled on this group. That was 8 years ago, hmmmm how time flies. I came back here because I was bored stiff, I got pensioned off a couple of years ago. I thought I would came back and see if there was anything I could do to help.

By the way Wing Walker and I officially opened the doors to our new drop in and support group for TS folks last night. Now I got something to do for at leas one day out of the week.

You all have a wonderful day, especially you  Amanda.

Cindy     

Jay: Thanks so much! It feels so good to get all these re-assurances, especially from a cute
guy like yourself :) :)

Sara: I had no idea that you were a GG, and I hope I did not offend you, I've seen your posts
before and I've often thought I'd like to be as pretty and feminine as that girl :) ... now I know why.
And I think the people here are pretty cool too.

I know the V-FFS site and I've used her services. Alexandra uses pictures wearing no makeup
and it's REALLY hard to process what everything will look like with makeup. Makeup can
make all the difference. Also the Virtual FFS site for anyone that does not know it is
http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/ (http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/) and it really is amazing to see what can be done.

BTW: I could never get the makeup to my satisfaction until I asked a professional makeup artist
for help. If anyone needs pointers and are in the Las Vegas area Nicole(a beautiful GG) at
www.primpthis.com (http://www.primpthis.com) is a makeup artist and works with CD/TG/TS clients. She has a
private studio so if your pre-transition or just starting your transition you will not feel embarrassed
to go in boy-mode. Nicole is so good and takes you step by step through the process. I can't say enough
how kind and how good her work is and how well she teaches what she knows. Anyone that needs a little
help with their look should try her. You will not be disappointed.

Oh... thank you so much for the compliment it does my self-esteem wonders coming from a GG.

Cindy: thanks, you have a good day too!

I will say its probably a good idea to get FFS.  Yes...its your nose first and foremost.  Makeup is not going to help that.  My advice is go in for a consult. 

As far as being read, judging by the way you look now, it is going to happen.

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 17, 2008, 01:51:11 AM
Is there any hope for me passing?

Of course there is.

Look, most of us go through this "I know I'll never pass without FFS!" phase in the beginning. Early in HRT is a rough time, we're so anxious to see signs of change, so anxious to get OUT THERE... and yet terrified it's never going to happen for us. We start contingency planning for the worst case. Something to keep our hope alive. Nothing wrong with that.

I said the same thing at my first support group. And they all laughed at me. They LAUGHED at me! I was SO mad that they weren't taking me seriously. They just smiled knowingly and said, "we're not laughing AT you. It's just that we all sat there once and said the same thing. It happens every time we get someone new."

You have to keep in mind that everyone here is wrestling with their own self-acceptance issues. This isn't exactly an objective an unbiased audience you're polling. Many of the responses are going to be reflections of their own worries and concerns being projected upon you. Take everything with a grain of salt.

The general rule is to give HRT at LEAST a year... though two is more fair. If you're still being sirred every day, then OK... maybe FFS would make life easier. But two months into HRT is NOTHING. You have a TON of changes coming your way. Contingency plans certainly helped me deal too, but really... consider giving HRT a chance to work it's magic.

~Kate~

EDIT: incidentally, you look great to me NOW. I saw your picture and just assumed you were a year or more into HRT. That you look like this NOW is just amazing. I know I'm contradicting my "don't pay too much attention to what people say:" rule, lol, but I don't think you have anything to worry about

Quote
The general rule is to give HRT at LEAST a year... though two is more fair. If you're still being sirred every day, then OK... maybe FFS would make life easier. But two months into HRT is NOTHING. You have a TON of changes coming your way. Contingency plans certainly helped me deal too, but really... consider giving HRT a chance to work it's magic.

~Kate~

EDIT: incidentally, you look great to me NOW. I saw your picture and just assumed you were a year or more into HRT. That you look like this NOW is just amazing. I know I'm contradicting my "don't pay too much attention to what people say:" rule, lol, but I don't think you have anything to worry about

Kate, lol, you would not believe me if I posted my boy picture from 3 months ago. In some ways the changes have been amazing
to me but mostly I still see that ugly guy staring back especially in the mirror because I can look at all the angles. I know that
hair removal will help me get past a lot of that. I'm so excited to think that HRT will just help me get better and better. My thoughts
after reading this are that it scares me that I may not have my hair removal done and be even more feminine looking to the point of
not being able to pull off boy mode.

Posted on: March 21, 2008, 08:42:24 AM

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Quote from: Amy T. on March 20, 2008, 10:24:05 PM
I will say its probably a good idea to get FFS.  Yes...its your nose first and foremost.  Makeup is not going to help that.  My advice is go in for a consult. 

As far as being read, judging by the way you look now, it is going to happen.

Thanks Amy, that's what I see too, other than a nose what is my most boyish feature?

I think there's a lot you can do before thinking about surgury. Electrolysis is one. Wait-and-see on the HRT is another. Also messing around with makeup as well, maybe even trying different hair styles to see what works best.

But I think what might actually help the most is simply changing your posture. You seem a little hunched in these pictures, maybe a little tense. Relax and carry your head high and your shoulders back more. That's what people see first, after all.

I find all that very hard to say based on one picture.

here's the one thing, everyone keeps forgetting tho. Amanda maybe you didn't get read!! you said he was african american correct? someone else on here posted that that really is the test of how you pass go out to the african american community. they have a lot of women who look just like men. i really don't think you got read at all. what i really think happened is he saw a pretty blonde woman he was interested in and he didn't really know how to go about it. a similar situation did happen to me a few months ago. i was out somewhere and i had my son with me and thought no one was behind me( i was dressed almost completely male( my jeans being skinny legged). the next thing i know there was this black guy literally falling up the stairs to open the door for me. he was like "i'll get that for you sweetie," inside i was laughing so hard it wasn't funny. one because he fell up the stairs, and two he thought i was a girl i guess dressed in men's clothes. i thought i would share my opinion. and yeah i've seen so many women come in to work with more facial hair than some men do, my cat's vet has more facial hair than i do, i use to want it so bad when i was younger, now i am soooo glad it's pretty much not noticeable and i would love to keep it that way.

i think you look just fine just the way you are, but of course i'm not one of those girls that's real big on plastic surgery either.

Best Wishes,
Mickie

I guess that is possible Mickie, he was very friendly and had a big smile on his face. It would be great if that was
the case. Someone else told me I needed to prepare myself to start getting hit on a lot. I can't imagine how
I'm going to react to that  :o  That may have been all this was. He saw what he thought was a pretty girl
and just wanted to say hi. I guess I was just thinking the worst.

Alyssa, I do have bad posture sometimes :) I try to think shoulders back a lot, there is so much to remember.

Quote from: mickie on March 21, 2008, 12:11:16 PM
here's the one thing, everyone keeps forgetting tho. Amanda maybe you didn't get read!! you said he was african american correct? someone else on here posted that that really is the test of how you pass go out to the african american community. they have a lot of women who look just like men. i really don't think you got read at all. what i really think happened is he saw a pretty blonde woman he was interested in and he didn't really know how to go about it. a similar situation did happen to me a few months ago. i was out somewhere and i had my son with me and thought no one was behind me( i was dressed almost completely male( my jeans being skinny legged). the next thing i know there was this black guy literally falling up the stairs to open the door for me. he was like "i'll get that for you sweetie," inside i was laughing so hard it wasn't funny. one because he fell up the stairs, and two he thought i was a girl i guess dressed in men's clothes. i thought i would share my opinion. and yeah i've seen so many women come in to work with more facial hair than some men do, my cat's vet has more facial hair than i do, i use to want it so bad when i was younger, now i am soooo glad it's pretty much not noticeable and i would love to keep it that way.

i think you look just fine just the way you are, but of course i'm not one of those girls that's real big on plastic surgery either.

Best Wishes,
Mickie

I also have "posture" issues, but I keep realizing they are largely about old feelings of hiding / protecting my body.
a lot of that is gender related, but not all.

I do find that as I transition more (close to 3 yrs this time for living as male 24/7) I am able to have times, hours, parts of days, where my posture is naturally much better.  Forcing the changes didn't help.  FOR Me, which may not be true for you, I have gotten lots of good help by going to trans sensitive chiropractors and bodyworkers (I used to be a massage therapist and yogic breath worker, yeah, with bad posture  :-\)
Anyways, I truly think that the spine often holds trauma and tension for many reasons.  Especially the pattern of flight or fight, which can happen due to stress around gender, life, car accidents, abuse experienced as a child or an adult, that pattern stays in the spine, and is very much part of why I haven't had great posture.  The more I heal, and grieve, and release old traumas from cellular memory, and, perhaps most importantly, feel loved and admired for my real self, the more I stand up straighter at least a lot of the time.

I know there is so much to pay for, and it is an insanely vulnerable thing to get massage / bodywork during early transition (really, I know, I used to teach all those things mentioned, and still ran into deep fear / terror going for some of my sessions.....it was really hard to let my changing, vulnerable body be touched sometimes).

I wish you all the best.  I think the more you can relax, and soften in your body, the more extra beautiful you will become.  I think you are pretty already.   Best of luck.
Joseph

FFS is an amazingly personal decision.  It frankly doesn't matter what other people think.  As a matter of fact I think it just makes the whole decision making process more confusing.  You need to get 5 good pictures of yourself:

Right profile

Turned 45 degrees (halfway) to the right.

Straight on.

Turned 45 degrees (halfway) to the left.

Left profile


Also these pictures MUST be done with your hair pulled back so you can see everything.


Now YOU evaluate the pictures and decide what needs to be changed.  The areas of most concern that we as a population to look at are:


Hairline: A scalp advancement could improve this.

Forehead/Brow: Some people overlook this area, but results can be dramatic.

Cheeks: Do you need implants?  My philosophy is that the cheeks will automatically look better once other issues are dealt with.

Nose: You're obviously already concerned about that.

Distance between nose and upper lip.

Lips themselves: Do you desire enhancement?

Chin: Do you have a cleft?  Does it have to be brought forward?  Back?

Jaw: Does the jaw flare a lot?  Is it just plain huge?

Ears: Don't forget them.  Some people need to have their ears laid back.

Adam's Apple: Do you need it shaved?


I REFUSE to give you feedback on your current (or future) pics.  This is a personal choice.  My only advice is that you don't do this piecemeal.  If you're going to do more than one procedure, do them at the same time.

Hi Amanda, as for guys hitting on you just carry a big stick in your purse.  ;D I love it when I get the attention from the guys, hey how much longer will it last at 62 anyway? Sure just like any other girl regardless of age I enjoy playing the girly games like winking at some guy. From whence I came from I can get on my knees and  kiss Mommy earth that I'm still here. Fear not the intergalactic granny is here!!!

Cindy

Quote
I wish you all the best.  I think the more you can relax, and soften in your body, the more extra beautiful you will become.  I think you are pretty already.   Best of luck.
Joseph

Awww, thank you Joseph, you're a sweetie, and thanks for the tips :)

Beyond, thank you too, that is very good info and I'll take some pictures and try it.

QuoteHi Amanda, as for guys hitting on you just carry a big stick

Cindy... but I'm giving up my big stick, lol, could not resist  :) :) it never was that big.

"Hee, hee, hee." What would life be without a little bit of humor. Heck my stick was never big to start and just before the big chop all they needed was a pair of tweezers to remove the overgrow wart down there.  ;D cheeeeeez I was lucky I didn't have acne down there or they have plucked out the wrong one.

Cindy

Let me be perfectly clear, in my mind you without a doubt need some type of FFS in order not to be read.  Makeup is not going to fix the problems that are there.  Trans boards at times can be way to nice.  I say, it is better to be honest then nice, especially on a board section about FFS and the issues of being read.  If being read is an issue to you and your goal is assimilation, seek out a good surgeon.  I will leave it at that, because as it stands, you are not in my mind passable. 

Its a personal choice, but it is a choice, do you want to be seen as trans or female, because as it stands you will have occasions where you will be read, and I can tell that just from your pictures.  You without question fall into the category of necessity for assimilation.  Makeup is not going to change your nose or your bone structure, only surgery will.  And in your case, both could use some work.

I think in the case of trans boards people are way to  nice and often lack honesty, when the case is this can be damaging with regards to everything from employment to social assimilation.  I rather have honesty, and in your case if assimilation is your goal seek out FFS, because otherwise somebody will always read you, no matter how much makeup or how long you are on hormones.

QuoteI'm so excited to think that HRT will just help me get better and better. My thoughts
after reading this are that it scares me that I may not have my hair removal done and be even more feminine looking to the point of
not being able to pull off boy mode.

I love this paragraph.

Hi Amanda hon, give HRT a few more months to do it's work and I will tell ya, if we were both decided to do some sky diving and jumped out of a plane as girls, would we not still be girls when we landed. No there is no going back, and I guarantee you, you will not have any desire to. You may get some results in as early as three more months where you will feel and see a softening of your facial skin.

Cindy

Quote from: Kate on March 20, 2008, 10:54:26 PM

The general rule is to give HRT at LEAST a year... though two is more fair. If you're still being sirred every day, then OK... maybe FFS would make life easier. But two months into HRT is NOTHING. You have a TON of changes coming your way. Contingency plans certainly helped me deal too, but really... consider giving HRT a chance to work it's magic.

Ditto. If you look this good after two months..you have no worries.
I don't know of any women that wouldn't want to change 1 thing...and who knows...maybe you will still want it. You won't really know until enough time has passed with HRT.

Quote from: Amy T. on March 30, 2008, 12:58:01 AM
Let me be perfectly clear, in my mind you without a doubt need some type of FFS in order not to be read.  Makeup is not going to fix the problems that are there.  Trans boards at times can be way to nice.  I say, it is better to be honest then nice, especially on a board section about FFS and the issues of being read.  If being read is an issue to you and your goal is assimilation, seek out a good surgeon.  I will leave it at that, because as it stands, you are not in my mind passable. 

Its a personal choice, but it is a choice, do you want to be seen as trans or female, because as it stands you will have occasions where you will be read, and I can tell that just from your pictures.  You without question fall into the category of necessity for assimilation.  Makeup is not going to change your nose or your bone structure, only surgery will.  And in your case, both could use some work.

I think in the case of trans boards people are way to  nice and often lack honesty, when the case is this can be damaging with regards to everything from employment to social assimilation.  I rather have honesty, and in your case if assimilation is your goal seek out FFS, because otherwise somebody will always read you, no matter how much makeup or how long you are on hormones.

Hi Amy, I really do appreciate your honesty. I KNOW I need nose work. I've always hated it. And cost wise the nose is not a
great dea of money. But what else do you see? Would cheek implants help. I think my eyes and forehead are fine. Maybe make
my chin less square? I know everyone is being nice when they tell me I look great for two months HRT (and don't get me wrong...
I treasure those comments) but I really want to get rid of all the male markers. So any advise anyone has is welcome and
not going to hurt my feelings or even make me sad, I know I'm a work in progress.

Does anyone think that HRT will really change that much more? Will it mostly be in the cheek area and fuller face overall?

I've been able to set aside some money for this next year and my plans are the nose and laser for my facial hair. I hate to
do the nose without doing something to the cheeks becuase I've been told it would be a perfect time to do it. And I really
don't want to wait a year to see what HRT does before I have the nose fixed because I know it's not going to do squat for
my nose. I've also been told that chin work could be done at the same time.

I hate to appear so shallow everyone, but passing is a very important thing for me. Being more attractive would be nice but
I'd settle for passing. And apparently I'm not there yet.

Amanda

Posted on: March 30, 2008, 03:21:10 PM

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Quote from: Lori on March 30, 2008, 09:43:25 AM

Quote from: Kate on March 20, 2008, 10:54:26 PM

The general rule is to give HRT at LEAST a year... though two is more fair. If you're still being sirred every day, then OK... maybe FFS would make life easier. But two months into HRT is NOTHING. You have a TON of changes coming your way. Contingency plans certainly helped me deal too, but really... consider giving HRT a chance to work it's magic.

Ditto. If you look this good after two months..you have no worries.
I don't know of any women that wouldn't want to change 1 thing...and who knows...maybe you will still want it. You won't really know until enough time has passed with HRT.

Thank you so much Lori! 

I know what you are saying about waiting but there are some things that just are not going to change and
I wish I had the will power to wait :) but I can't live 12 more months with my nose :)

Posted on: March 30, 2008, 03:24:35 PM

---

Quote from: cindybc on March 30, 2008, 01:48:34 AM

QuoteI'm so excited to think that HRT will just help me get better and better. My thoughts
after reading this are that it scares me that I may not have my hair removal done and be even more feminine looking to the point of
not being able to pull off boy mode.

I love this paragraph.

Hi Amanda hon, give HRT a few more months to do it's work and I will tell ya, if we were both decided to do some sky diving and jumped out of a plane as girls, would we not still be girls when we landed. No there is no going back, and I guarantee you, you will not have any desire to. You may get some results in as early as three more months where you will feel and see a softening of your facial skin.

Cindy

Thanks Cindy, it seems like time is standing still these days. I guess everyone goes through this, looking for changes, not seeing
and and wanting to take steps to "fix things".

Hi Amanda, your quite right when I started out I was wishing I had the money to do some FFS but I didn't, I needed the money for other things, such as electrolysis and such. Ok that was eight years ago, and for my age I would say that the results turned out pretty good.
8 years ago when I started
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fcindyred-1.jpg&hash=2533edf748b58fc6b6a02f7dff2668723515d79a)
Two years ago
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2FF1000022.jpg&hash=6059a2135a9225cc4a040f7f890149429abdfb71)
My latest photo
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2F33660001.jpg&hash=e16340fa9a38807cf86e75ac36ef3f1caf4aa83b)

Cindy

HRT is amazing, your chin even looks different. Looking good :)

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 30, 2008, 04:27:07 PM
Does anyone think that HRT will really change that much more?

Yes. Much more. Two YEARS for the major changes. Two months is nothing.

QuoteI hate to appear so shallow everyone, but passing is a very important thing for me. Being more attactive would be nice but
I'd settle for passing. And apparantly I'm not there yet.

Everyone develops at different rates. I was nowhere near passable at only 2 months HRT. 7-9 months was when people finally began giving me the "huh?" look whenever I'd use my male name.

~Kate~

Yes, it took me four years going on five years but that was because of age. I got all the parts I want and people seem to not mind my, I believe, a kind enough looking face. Therefor I pay homage and kneel before the Estrogen god and bow while giving thanks for the gifts the tin gods have brought this old bird.  ;D

Cindy

Quote from: Kate on March 30, 2008, 09:43:27 PM

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 30, 2008, 04:27:07 PM
Does anyone think that HRT will really change that much more?

Yes. Much more. Two YEARS for the major changes. Two months is nothing.

QuoteI hate to appear so shallow everyone, but passing is a very important thing for me. Being more attractive would be nice but
I'd settle for passing. And apparently I'm not there yet.

Everyone develops at different rates. I was nowhere near passable at only 2 months HRT. 7-9 months was when people finally began giving me the "huh?" look whenever I'd use my male name.

~Kate~

That is so cool. I guess I need to be a little patient but it is so hard not to jump off and start doing something
about the things that bother me. :)

I posted here last week that I did not have hips yet, LOL, things seem to sneak up on me because I was
getting out of the shower this weekend and realized the tops of my thighs had filled out and I was getting
a nice curve starting at the mid to top of my thigh YAY!  And OMG, my butt is growing rearward so fast. So I
know things are changing, I just want them done now. :)


Posted on: March 31, 2008, 07:54:48 AM

---

Quote from: cindybc on March 31, 2008, 12:14:48 AM
Yes, it took me four years going on five years but that was because of age. I got all the parts I want and people seem to not mind my, I believe, a kind enough looking face. Therefor I pay homage and kneel before the Estrogen god and bow while giving thanks for the gifts the tin gods have brought this old bird.  ;D

Cindy

Thanks Cindy, I hope it does not take five years for me :) I don't think I could take it :)

Hi Amanda just have patience and it will happen for you. You appear to me to be a good candidate for what magic estrogen can do for you. Heck I swear I feel and look much younger then before. Take a good look at Kate's photo, I mean there is a prime example of the result of estrogen. Just keep faith and maybe use Kate's pic as your personal muse to aspire to. It can be quite a surprise what the power of the mind in the mix can do as well. I miss you pretty picture.  >:(

Cindy

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 17, 2008, 01:51:11 AM
Is there any hope for me passing?

(IMG]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/always-amanda/amanda1.jpg[/img)

Jeez, you are making so much progress, girl. i think you should just chill.

Quote
Usually we overdress for the occasion. Red really stands out as well.  If you want to get noticed, wear red!  Is this what you wore?

Cindi

i think this is the first time i've ever disagreed with Cindi. but, heck, i want to stand out!

i'm so happy that my little boobs are noticeable even when i'm wearing a tight cami under my blouse.
and i know this makes me sound like a hussy (again), but i want people to notice them.  :P

i get "read" all the time -- much more often than not. but, as my therapist noted, i am transitioning. is that supposed to be a crime or something?

to paraphrase Kate (i think), if people don't get that i am female, then they'll get that i am transitioning. end of story.

-ellie

Quote from: ell on March 31, 2008, 08:11:33 PM

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 17, 2008, 01:51:11 AM
Is there any hope for me passing?

(IMG]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/always-amanda/amanda1.jpg[/img)

Jeez, you are making so much progress, girl. i think you should just chill.

Quote
Usually we overdress for the occasion. Red really stands out as well.  If you want to get noticed, wear red!  Is this what you wore?

Cindi

i think this is the first time i've ever disagreed with Cindi. but, heck, i want to stand out!

i'm so happy that my little boobs are noticeable even when i'm wearing a tight cami under my blouse.
and i know this makes me sound like a hussy (again), but i want people to notice them.  :P

i get "read" all the time -- much more often than not. but, as my therapist noted, i am transitioning. is that supposed to be a crime or something?

to paraphrase Kate (i think), if people don't get that i am female, then they'll get that i am transitioning. end of story.

-ellie

Thanks Ellie, I think I've said it before, it's like time is standing still these days :) And... I guess to some extent I
don't mind standing out.... and I like vivid colors :)

Posted on: March 31, 2008, 07:26:31 PM

---

Quote from: cindybc on March 31, 2008, 06:21:14 PM
Hi Amanda just have patience and it will happen for you. You appear to me to be a good candidate for what magic estrogen can do for you. Heck I swear I feel and look much younger then before. Take a good look at Kate's photo, I mean there is a prime example of the result of estrogen. Just keep faith and maybe use Kate's pic as your personal muse to aspire to. It can be quite a surprise what the power of the mind in the mix can do as well. I miss you pretty picture.  >:(

Cindy

I know I need patience :) And Kate is amazing... she looks so good, it is magical.

Oh... I get so bored of the same picture up there as my avatar... it may be back or maybe another. :)

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 31, 2008, 08:29:40 PM
Thanks Ellie, I think I've said it before, it's like time is standing still these days :) And... I guess to some extent I don't mind standing out.... and I like vivid colors :)

You're welcome.

and, jfyi, your eyes are very pretty in your avatar.

-ellie

Quote from: ell on April 01, 2008, 03:00:52 AM

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 31, 2008, 08:29:40 PM
Thanks Ellie, I think I've said it before, it's like time is standing still these days :) And... I guess to some extent I don't mind standing out.... and I like vivid colors :)

You're welcome.

and, jfyi, your eyes are very pretty in your avatar.

-ellie

Thank you Ell :) It's like every bit of hormones have gone to my eyes... now if it will just spread out and work it's
magic elsewhere I'll be one happy girl :)

You should have started hair removal the minute you knew you were transitioning.  I would start as soon as possible, it is without question a necessity.  It should have started as soon as you decided on transitioning. 
As far as two months on HRT being early well that is pretty accurate.  I have been on HRT for 9 months, and that is still early, and there has been major changes.   

As far as what you need in terms of surgery, again, talk to a surgeon.  Waiting one year into HRT is probably a good idea as far as timing the surgery. 

QuoteYou should have started hair removal the minute you knew you were transitioning.  I would start as soon as possible, it is without question a necessity.  It should have started as soon as you decided on transitioning.
As far as two months on HRT being early well that is pretty accurate.  I have been on HRT for 9 months, and that is still early, and there has been major changes.   

As far as what you need in terms of surgery, again, talk to a surgeon.  Waiting one year into HRT is probably a good idea as far as timing the surgery.

Thanks Amy....  things don't always go as planned :)

Amanda

Hi Amanda I didn't start electro until about a couple months after I started full time, I hated it, it, I had to lay on the makeup so thick that I may as well have used a butter knife. Anyway I started electro and HRT at around the same time.  had fur on me like a grizzly bear and how that's all gone to. Just use an epilator and one day the stuff just didn't bother to grow out anymore, that was a blessing.

Cindy 

AlwaysAmanda, you are already very pretty.

I agree for the nose part...Make sure to tell the doctor that you want to feminise it because I had two nose jobs...the first time it was better but still too masculine...So I had to go under the knife again.

A browridge contouring and a mini facelift can do a lot to make a face looking more feminine. (I am thinking to do my forehead soon)

Anyways, I support you in all your decision girl!!!

Warm hugs from Sweden!

Myanne :)

QuoteAlwaysAmanda, you are already very pretty.

Hi Myanne,

Thank you so much! When I saw your avatar for the first time I thought to myself how feminine
and pretty you are, you are very lucky :)

I know how you feel about your face, but seriously, you look totally female and very pretty
now. The one thing I've learned the last few weeks is that none of us see in ourselves (me included)
what others see and that is at worst a passable woman and in a lot of cases a very attractive women.

There are exceptions of course, that see themselves as what they really are and I hope to be one of those
women someday :)

Amanda

Hi Amanda,

Please allow me a few belated observations (I've been away from these pages for so long, guess living my life ....) ....

You look really really good considering you're only 2 months down the road.  At an OK 5ft 9in / size 6 (?) your battle is half won !

What strikes me is your chin which stands out because even in the photos you can see obvious beard shadow ! 

Believe me nothing gives you away more than beard shadow, and the heavy make up that you use to try to hide it.  Until you've cleared the bulk of it whichever way you will never pass even with the most feminine face !

Also be careful with nose surgery, as your nose seems within female range, and in proportion with your long chin.  If you overdo rhinoplasty your face could end up totally out of proportion ....

Hugs,

Laura x

(Edit : seems like I missed page 2 !!!

Think Amy T was being unneccessarily harsh for someone who does not post her own photo !

FFS is not miracle surgery, nor does it make the big difference between really "passing" and being "read" .....

For FFS to work you need to be young, pretty and passable to start with. I've honestly never seen a true miracle transformation !

Which is why I'm so reluctant to mess with my own face, and risk the complications that so few are truthfull about.

Take care .... )

It's real simple. People come in different shapes and sizes. Some women have large noses. Some women have small noses, some women have very narrow chins, some women have very wide chins, etc. You look very nice.

What has done the most for me, is make-up, properly applied. This wasn't something that I learned entirely on my own, or with the help of other girls. I sat down with a cosmetologist, who worked out the best colors, my own palette, for day, for night, and for the different seasons. Without make-up, my features are unmistakeably masculine, but properly applied make-up redefines and visually re contours my face to give it a feminine edge. The same with hair. It was a professional who chose a hair piece  that  gives me the correct look for a woman with my shape face and also my age. I'm 58 years old, and am very comfortable with the look of a 58 year old woman. I'm on one hand attractive, and on the other, I don't attract a lot of attention. People don't look at a 58 year old woman as closely as someone who is, let's say, 28 years old. They don't know what they're missing!!!

In addition to HRT, which can do a lot, the biggest change in appearance will be in the second year of electrolysis. I have not started electro. as of yet, but this is what my therapist has told me. Since I've only been on HRT for three months, I still have at least 18 months to two years before the effects of the hormones and, by then, electro, will have done enough for me to decide if I will pursue any FFS after SRS.

Quote from: April221 on April 13, 2008, 06:38:54 PM
What has done the most for me, is make-up, properly applied. This wasn't something that I learned entirely on my own, or with the help of other girls. I sat down with a cosmetologist, who worked out the best colors, my own palette, for day, for night, and for the different seasons. Without make-up, my features are unmistakeably masculine, but properly applied make-up redefines and visually re contours my face to give it a feminine edge. The same with hair. It was a professional who chose a hair piece  that  gives me the correct look for a woman with my shape face and also my age. I'm 58 years old, and am very comfortable with the look of a 58 year old woman. I'm on one hand attractive, and on the other, I don't attract a lot of attention. People don't look at a 58 year old woman as closely as someone who is, let's say, 28 years old ......

Sorry April but "make-up, properly applied" just doesn't rock my boat !

I need to pass, look attractive "straight out of bed", not after tedious application of make up.  Could be a guy sleeping next to me .... and I have enough issues de-tangling my hair  ;) !

Most days I wear no make-up other than a dab of mascara and lip gloss if I'm going out shopping .... just maybe concealer and some power if I'm recovering from a heavy night out !

Luv

Laura x

Hi Laura Eva, were you here about 8 years ago when Susan had the other chat-room that was set up similarly to this message board? Also just wanted to say you certainly look stunningly beautiful. Ya I been away from the rooms for 7 years doing my thing or living life as you say. I had even forgot about this place until when I was cleaning out one of my emails and came across the link for this room. After I was retired two years ago as a Social Worker, well, it kind of got boring to say the the least, then I says to myself, self, why not come back? I do my best to give support to whom ever is in need here.  Well I do hope you can find time to drop by now and again.

Cindy

I agree if you really on makeup and tons of tricks to look female,
well that's not going to make your feel too good before you do all
those things and the dysphoria won't go away.

That's one of the problem, many go and get SRS quickly and
then end up having difficulty integrating as a women in society
beyond that one year (they often hide their difficulties from
the psychologist and from themselves.

If you can't afford FFS and hormones are not working too well,
that may be your only option, but I don't think that something
being a last resort would be all that satisfying unless
you know that's better than the alternative of deep depression.

Quote from: Keira on April 13, 2008, 09:40:37 PM
That's one of the problem, many go and get SRS quickly and then end up having difficulty integrating as a women in society beyond that one year (they often hide their difficulties from the psychologist and from themselves.

True, although I see a lot of people have a sense of "self-acceptance" that seems to alleviate that problem somewhat for themselves, where they can "be themselves" regardless of the reactions they receive. *I* couldn't handle it, and would opt for FFS, but others seem to have different sense of self than I... and don't seem to feel a need for FFS.

On the flip side, I think I've been assuming that "self-acceptance" (or whatever you wanna call it) is for everyone, including me. But I don't think we're always talking about accepting the same thing. I actually realized... and this will sound so weird, lol... but in my trying to find the self-acceptance others talk about and say I need, I actually lost sight of who I am. It's a zen thing where looking for something is what makes it feel lost ;)

~Kate~

WOW thanks for all the links AlwaysAmanda!
I don't know what you will decide about your FFS but I would like you to keep in touch about it, if you don't mind...I am still considering it but I'd say it will be the final touch.

Thanks again and warm hugs to you :)

Myanne

Thanks Laura, I agree with you about makeup, I love wearing it but I'd
like to be able to roll out of bed and pass. I've not heard anyone mention
that before or maybe it did not sink in but that's part of why I want
FFS. Maybe being on HRT will help with that but right now I
have to wear makeup to even come close to passing.

The beard shadow is bad, I've posted in other topics how I expected to
have a lot more time before HRT really started to work it's magic
and expected a lot less in the way of results. But so far I've been
very pleased with HRT (ok ecstatic) but I'm behind on hair removal and
everything else I thought I would have time for.


Myanne: lol... not sure what links I posted but your welcome :) .... and I'm not going anywhere, you guys are stuck
with me :)

Kate: I don't think I have the "sense of self-acceptance" either that will allow me to ignore others, that's just
part of my personality that won't change.


I had a really cool personal triumph this weekend. I had to buy some
new boy clothes because 6 months ago I was wearing a mens large because of
my upper body mass. I had lost about 25 pounds before starting HRT because
I knew it would be harder once I started to lose weight. When I started HRT
I was still large and a mens medium was tight, I bought a few shirts then
in hopes I could get by.  But yesterday I went shopping because I did not have a big
selection of medium size shirts and I discovered a mens small now fits just fine! I was so happy
because I've not lost much weight in the past two months but my bulk has gone down and
I had not even realized it. Anyway I was on cloud nine all day because I was really scared
I could never lose that bulk. The scale does not show it but it's really gone so I'm guessing it
must be muscle mass loss but I've not noticed any stength loss yet.

Amanda



Posted on: April 13, 2008, 11:17:49 PM

---

QuoteFor FFS to work you need to be young, pretty and passable to start with. I've honestly never seen a true miracle transformation !

Laura, I have to ask because... well that's just the way I am. :) Are you saying that I should forego the FFS
because I'm older, ugly and not passable? That was the implication I got from your comment but it did not jive with the
rest of the post. I may just be reading it wrong but I value everyone's opinion and just want to understand what
you're saying.

Amanda

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 13, 2008, 11:17:49 PM
Thanks Laura, I agree with you about makeup, I love wearing it but I'd
like to be able to roll out of bed and pass. I've not heard anyone mention
that before or maybe it did not sink in but that's part of why I want
FFS. Maybe being on HRT will help with that but right now I
have to wear makeup to even come close to passing.

The beard shadow is bad, I've posted in other topics how I expected to
have a lot more time before HRT really started to work it's magic
and expected a lot less in the way of results. But so far I've been
very pleased with HRT (ok ecstatic) but I'm behind on hair removal and
everything else I thought I would have time for.


Myanne: lol... not sure what links I posted but your welcome :) .... and I'm not going anywhere, you guys are stuck
with me :)

Kate: I don't think I have the "sense of self-acceptance" either that will allow me to ignore others, that's just
part of my personality that won't change.


I had a really cool personal triumph this weekend. I had to buy some
new boy clothes because 6 months ago I was wearing a mens large because of
my upper body mass. I had lost about 25 pounds before starting HRT because
I knew it would be harder once I started to lose weight. When I started HRT
I was still large and a mens medium was tight, I bought a few shirts then
in hopes I could get by.  But yesterday I went shopping because I did not have a big
selection of medium size shirts and I discovered a mens small now fits just fine! I was so happy
because I've not lost much weight in the past two months but my bulk has gone down and
I had not even realized it. Anyway I was on cloud nine all day because I was really scared
I could never lose that bulk. The scale does not show it but it's really gone so I'm guessing it
must be muscle mass loss but I've not noticed any stength loss yet.

Amanda

You are making great progress Amanda.  I feel the same way as you do, I am looking at going to Dr Chettawut in Thailand,(I live in Oz)  he sent me a quote.  He's not that cheap as I thought but not as dear as others.  I will have a nose job, slight shave of jaw and chin and cheek implants.  Cross fingers I will be happy with the result! :)

Do you have a link for Dr Chettawut? I've not heard of him before.

QuoteYou are making great progress Amanda

Thank you :) Some days I can feel it, some days I can't :)

Amanda

Here is the link, http://www.chet-plasticsurgery.com/

the prices quoted are going up in September, I'm trying to go for end of June or 
beginning July.

Honestly Amanda, your appearance is already incredibly feminine!  :)

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

QuoteHonestly Amanda, your appearance is already incredibly feminine!

You know I feel like I need to thank everyone for each compliment, but it feels so
insignifcant to just say "thank you" because each compliment does so much more
for me and my self esteem than a simple "thank you". I may have said something
like this before but each one builds up what GID chipped away at all my life. Sorry
if I'm being corney... just blame it on the hormones. :)

Thank you Buttercup :)

Amanda

Hi Amanda cherish those feelings they are precious. every improvement upon not only the physical but the spiritual as well will be what will reveal to you what you are within.

Cindy 

Quote from: Laura Eva B on April 13, 2008, 07:18:43 PM

Quote from: April221 on April 13, 2008, 06:38:54 PM
What has done the most for me, is make-up, properly applied. This wasn't something that I learned entirely on my own, or with the help of other girls. I sat down with a cosmetologist, who worked out the best colors, my own palette, for day, for night, and for the different seasons. Without make-up, my features are unmistakeably masculine, but properly applied make-up redefines and visually re contours my face to give it a feminine edge. The same with hair. It was a professional who chose a hair piece  that  gives me the correct look for a woman with my shape face and also my age. I'm 58 years old, and am very comfortable with the look of a 58 year old woman. I'm on one hand attractive, and on the other, I don't attract a lot of attention. People don't look at a 58 year old woman as closely as someone who is, let's say, 28 years old ......

Sorry April but "make-up, properly applied" just doesn't rock my boat !

I need to pass, look attractive "straight out of bed", not after tedious application of make up.  Could be a guy sleeping next to me .... and I have enough issues de-tangling my hair  ;) !

Most days I wear no make-up other than a dab of mascara and lip gloss if I'm going out shopping .... just maybe concealer and some power if I'm recovering from a heavy night out !

Luv

Laura x

As I said in my post, I have only been on HRT for 3 months. I believe that FOR MYSELF, no RESPONSIBLE decision concerning FFS can be made at this early stage in transition. I very clearly state this, as well as the fact that electro also has an effect on the facial look. At my age, the benefits of HRT will often take longer and be less noticeable than someone much younger, so it remains to be seen what the final result may be. Or what would be right for me.

For me, self acceptance is not an issue. I like who I am, and I've been April since the age of 6. The purpose of my transition, is to live out my life, as myself, as April, and to make it easier for people who do not know me to see and to relate to me as I truly am. For me, being true to myself is the priority. I'm not male; but I'm not a genetic woman either, and I'm alright with that. I'm a TS woman, and even though if I could choose, I would rather be a genetic female-or male, rather than TS. But I am TS, and I like myself. I have many very real, very tangible achievements in my life, and I have accomplished a great deal as a person.

I don't need to pass in order to feel good about myself, and my orientation is such that I would most likely wake up with another woman in my bed, rather than a man. What I wonder about with FFS, is if I'm going too close to another kind of "box," going from the "male box" to the "female box." FOR ME, the NEED to pass would create more problems than I'd want to deal with.

Laura, while I fully understand and respect anyone's decision for FFS, and know personally several people who have had various procedures, I'm not sure, especially at the point in transition where I'm at, whether or not FFS would be in line with the direction that I want to go, or how much FFS would be needed. My therapist has said that I may not need FFS to pass, and my socal presentation is excellent. With a hat, I'm usually read as female if my face isn't clearly seen. We are all different, and we all have different goals and dreams. Being passable does make it easier to live in society, and we'd all like to be beautiful. I just want to be myself, and if I can be comfortable without FFS, I won't pursue it. If I feel as if I would really gain from it, I'll look into it, but this early in transition is not the time for me to make that decision.

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 13, 2008, 11:27:28 PM

QuoteFor FFS to work you need to be young, pretty and passable to start with. I've honestly never seen a true miracle transformation !

Laura, I have to ask because... well that's just the way I am. :) Are you saying that I should forego the FFS
because I'm older, ugly and not passable? That was the implication I got from your comment but it did not jive with the rest of the post. I may just be reading it wrong but I value everyone's opinion and just want to understand what
you're saying.
Amanda

Amanda,

All I was trying to say was that you shouldn't invest too much expectation in the results of FFS, or you're likely to end up very disappointed .... good FFS will make you prettier but it will rarely make you 100% passable if you weren't that before !

The "miracle transformations" always seem to be relative youngsters (the ones who crop up in all the pics !), many older TS who go for the aggressive full works end up looking a bit like "Barbie" caricatures of women if you know what I mean, they just don't look right, and the fact that they've had surgery is often very obvious.

Go for the least surgery you need and see it as an "aid", not the "solution". 

The solution comes with time, the most convincing TS women I've seen across all age groups are those that have never gone near the surgeon's knife, but who have lived many years as women, and are 100% comfortable and relaxed about who they are.

I was planning full blown FFS before I transitioned full time, and I'm so glad I didn't as now I'm in a far better position to really judge what I need, and its likely to be really minor stuff, and some skin work to turn back the years ....

(P.S. that stuff about buying "boy's clothes" .... really ? .... I'd assumed you were recently full time, as I thought judging from the photos you were at that point, leastwise going by your appearance :-) .... )

Oh .... and the difference 2 years HRT / laser can make ....
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg (http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg)  !!!

Laura x


Posted on: April 14, 2008, 06:50:52 PM

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Quote from: April221 on April 14, 2008, 01:47:01 PM
With a hat, I'm usually read as female if my face isn't clearly seen.

We are all different, and we all have different goals and dreams. Being passable does make it easier to live in society, and we'd all like to be beautiful. I just want to be myself, and if I can be comfortable without FFS, I won't pursue it. If I feel as if I would really gain from it, I'll look into it, but this early in transition is not the time for me to make that decision.

:) Was that first sentence a subtle joke ?

But good for you April .... we all need to find a happy balance in our lives and find a "best compromise" ....

As they say "fools rush in" !

Laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on April 14, 2008, 07:28:49 PM

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 13, 2008, 11:27:28 PM

QuoteFor FFS to work you need to be young, pretty and passable to start with. I've honestly never seen a true miracle transformation !

Laura, I have to ask because... well that's just the way I am. :) Are you saying that I should forego the FFS
because I'm older, ugly and not passable? That was the implication I got from your comment but it did not jive with the rest of the post. I may just be reading it wrong but I value everyone's opinion and just want to understand what
you're saying.
Amanda

Amanda,

All I was trying to say was that you shouldn't invest too much expectation in the results of FFS, or you're likely to end up very disappointed .... good FFS will make you prettier but it will rarely make you 100% passable if you weren't that before !

The "miracle transformations" always seem to be relative youngsters (the ones who crop up in all the pics !), many older TS who go for the aggressive full works end up looking a bit like "Barbie" caricatures of women if you know what I mean, they just don't look right, and the fact that they've had surgery is often very obvious.

Go for the least surgery you need and see it as an "aid", not the "solution". 

The solution comes with time, the most convincing TS women I've seen across all age groups are those that have never gone near the surgeon's knife, but who have lived many years as women, and are 100% comfortable and relaxed about who they are.

I was planning full blown FFS before I transitioned full time, and I'm so glad I didn't as now I'm in a far better position to really judge what I need, and its likely to be really minor stuff, and some skin work to turn back the years ....

(P.S. that stuff about buying "boy's clothes" .... really ? .... I'd assumed you were recently full time, as I thought judging from the photos you were at that point, leastwise going by your appearance :-) .... )

Oh .... and the difference 2 years HRT / laser can make ....
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg (http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg)  !!!

Laura x


Posted on: April 14, 2008, 06:50:52 PM

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Quote from: April221 on April 14, 2008, 01:47:01 PM
As they say "fools rush in" !

Laura x

As they say "fools rush in" !
That's very true, and they often encourage others to follow.

I agree with Laura Eve.  Don't lose your distinctiveness.  FFS should do just that, feminize you, not turn you into a  caricature. You are already pretty and you will be much more passable if you look like an individual.  As for me, I am waiting to see how things develop, and just see what needs to be adjusted.  I have no plans for the big WORKS packages.

Best of luck, pretty girl.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

QuoteI was planning full blown FFS before I transitioned full time, and I'm so glad I didn't as now I'm in a far better position to really judge what I need, and its likely to be really minor stuff, and some skin work to turn back the years ....

Thanks Laura, I guess that is what I'm leaning toward with the exception of my nose. I think that
if I can make that more feminine it will really help my looks. I can't decide on the chin work though I
may see what the surgeons think I need. But I don't see myself going for the works.... tonight anyway :)

Your before and after pics that I assume are just HRT cahnges are amazing :)

Quote(P.S. that stuff about buying "boy's clothes" .... really ? .... I'd assumed you were recently full time, as I thought judging from the photos you were at that point, leastwise going by your appearance :-) .... )

I wish I was at that point but I simply don't have the confidence in my appearance yet to do it yet and I'm just not
ready in other areas of my life.  I've only been on HRT for about three months now, I just did not expect to be
were I am at this point and I'm so unprepared. So I'm going to see what the next couple of months bring in the
way of changes. I'm hoping that maybe some of the changes will slow down so I can stretch things out and
do some of the things I need to do (like hair removal) before I'm full time.

QuoteI agree with Laura Eve.  Don't lose your distinctiveness.  FFS should do just that, feminize you, not turn you into a  caricature. You are already pretty and you will be much more passable if you look like an individual.  As for me, I am waiting to see how things develop, and just see what needs to be adjusted.  I have no plans for the big WORKS packages.

Best of luck, pretty girl.

I know what your saying Kristi, I do not want to look like I had surgery.

I think someone here had posted a link to Cindy Jackson's website:
http://www.cindyjackson.com/my_cosmetic_surgery2.php (http://www.cindyjackson.com/my_cosmetic_surgery2.php)

She is not TS but her before pics are not far from what some of us look like pre FFS and I think she looks
great now and very natural. She has a book that talks alot about her surgeries that I may order.

Thank you Kristi :):)

Amanda

I like the comments of Laura and Kristi. I want to be attractive but want to look like myself, and tbh can't afford the high cost of full FFS.

QuoteI like the comments of Laura and Kristi. I want to be attractive but want to look like myself, and tbh can't afford the high cost of full FFS.

I agree it makes a lot of sense... and I could do a lot with the money I save. Every one I think is saying
to wait for HRT changes and I'm leaning toward that. But like I said I think I REALLY need to
fix my nose, but that is fairly simple and has a very short recovery.

Just don't let the doctor botch it like he did with (actress) Jennifer Grey.

Carol

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 14, 2008, 11:09:48 PM
But like I said I think I REALLY need to fix my nose, but that is fairly simple and has a very short recovery.

Keep in mind I've heard some FFS surgeons say that it should all be done at the same time, so they can "balance" the changes to the nose with the other changes (brow, etc.).

~Kate~

Is the idea that you might need FFS based solely on being read and the sense that it was things about your face that you don't like that caused that? If so, maybe you should wait, or consult with someone like Dr. Spiegel in Boston who does what Kristi suggested -- feminizes a male face to help you look like you might have without the effects of the T.

Of course, as for being read, there are reasons for that other than one's looks. How do you comport yourself? How much 'space' do you take up? How do you 'hold' your shoulders. How narrow or wide are they, your shoulders. Speech tone and sound and inflection. Hands that can easily palm a basketball? All sorts of 'keys.' and your nose or brow or mouth may not be what's doing the 'keying.'

To imagine that FFS is going to suddenly make someone 100% passable seems like a rather short-sighted and often false conclusion.

If, oth, FFS is going to make you more comfortable with yourself, help you accept yourself, then by all means you should have it when you can afford it. About 90% of 'passing' is in your own mind and how that plays out in your 'presentation.' Anything that eases your own sense of self is very likely to be helpful. Anything that doesn't is likely to be harmful.

Nichole

Quote
Keep in mind I've heard some FFS surgeons say that it should all be done at the same time, so they can "balance" the changes to the nose with the other changes (brow, etc.)

I've read that as well... but I really don't see me going for the "works" ever. I really think I'll be happy with just the nose
maybe some chin work but I could be wrong.

You know I'm really going by what you guys tell me and I think everyone (with an exception or two) has said that
I am passable and even pretty. So if I need drastic help... please tell me now :) If not I'm hoping that a feminine
nose and maybe doing something with the chin is going to make me see it. And HRT will not ever change my
nose so I feel safe doing that now.

QuoteIs the idea that you might need FFS based solely on being read and the sense that it was things about your face that you don't like that caused that? If so, maybe you should wait, or consult with someone like Dr. Spiegel in Boston who does what Kristi suggested -- feminines a male face to help you look like you might have without the effects of the T.

I don't think I'm doing it because I was read, I really think I'm doing for me, so that when I look into the mirror I'm happy,
and at that point if I'm still read so be it. I think I can deal with that, maybe. My plan this hour of this day is to improve
the nose and then let HRT work for a while. If in a year or two I'm not happy then I can go for more or
even "the works". Before I decide for sure though I'm going to do more research and talk to more FFS surgeons.

QuoteOf course, as for being read, there are reasons for that other than one's looks. How do you comport yourself? How much 'space' do you take up? How do you 'hold' your shoulders. How narrow or wide are they, your shoulders. Speech tone and sound and inflection. Hands that can easily palm a basketball? All sorts of 'keys.' and your nose or brow or mouth may not be what's doing the 'keying.'

Yea, I do get that, I really get that... it's much more than what my face looks like. But I think until I see a passable woman in the
mirror no one else will regardless if that is the problem or not. So for me the first step is to resolve the issues in my own head
and after that deal with all the rest.

QuoteIf, oth, FFS is going to make you more comfortable with yourself, help you accept yourself, then by all means you should have it when you can afford it. About 90% of 'passing' is in your own mind and how that plays out in your 'presentation.' Anything that eases your own sense of self is very likely to be helpful. Anything that doesn't is likely to be harmful.

Opps... yea I guess I should read all the post first before responding... but that is exactly how I feel. I know it's a mental
thing with me and if I can get past this I'll be fine but right now I just cannot see a woman in the mirror. Don't get me wrong...
what I do see is SO much better than that ugly guy... and it makes me so happy, but I'm still not 100% there yet.

Thank you guys :)

Amanda

Amanda, before you run away from my post I want to first say that you are pretty.  Your eyes are very beautiful!

Now the bad parts, and some questions.  Is that your real hair?  For whatever reason the color does not match your complexion.  The other question I have is, is that an Adam's Apple I see?

Some other observations I have made are:

- from the nose up you are VERY PRETTY, below the nose, running horizontally, there are problems:
(a) your chin needs a reduction
(b) you need a "slight" trache shave
(c) you need electrolysis (as you already know)

Also, even with the way you are sitting in the photo, it looks like you have no boobs..your back is too arched.  Like the others here are suggesting, WALK WITH CONFIDENCE!

Based on the one picture I am looking at, I'd spend money in the following order:

- chin reduction (hate to be cruel, but it reminds me of Michael Jackson's chin)
- electrolysis (it can be hidden with makeup)
- trache shave (unless you want to wear a choker)

The one thing that I think gave you away was your chin.  Heck, Celine Dion has a HORRIBLE chin and everytime I see her on television all I can focus on is her chin.

Again, from the nose up YOU ... ARE ... HOT!!!!

Aeron

Thanks Aeron... I will never run from constructive criticism ... as yours is.

I don't have a picture on my laptop but I have a picture that I will
post tomorrow... it was retouched by an artist here on susans
and shows what a small change to the chin and nose would do.

I do have horrible posture and I'm only three months on HRT so
my boobies are just getting to an A cup. I think you're ideas are right on the
mark... with the addition of the nose. It's really bad and that picture does not show it.

QuoteAgain, from the nose up YOU ... ARE ... HOT!!!!

That put a BIG smile on my face... and it's not going away... because I
know I can fix the otehr stuff... thanks SO much :)

Amanda

Amanda, unless you have a beak for a nose, DO NOT bother messing with it.  Try this  (I'm sure you have a million times).  cover the part of your pic that is below the nose.  See how beautiful you are?  Now, do the opposite.  See where you need the work?  Just another way of saying what I already said before, but your nose (judging from the one pic I saw) is NOT as bad as some on here say it is.  If you go messing with your nose at this point, you could create far more problems than you already have.  It could suddenly make your lips into problems.  Your ears might look "off".  Even those beautiful eyes might not look as pretty.  The nose is the "center" of the face, so to speak, and you weren't clocked in the center.  Work from the outside, in. 

Aeron

Wow Amanda, you truly are beautiful!!!! *sooooo jealous*

You give me something to hope for  :D

QuoteAmanda, unless you have a beak for a nose, DO NOT bother messing with it.  Try this  (I'm sure you have a million times).  cover the part of your pic that is below the nose.  See how beautiful you are?  Now, do the opposite.  See where you need the work?  Just another way of saying what I already said before, but your nose (judging from the one pic I saw) is NOT as bad as some on here say it is.  If you go messing with your nose at this point, you could create far more problems than you already have.  It could suddenly make your lips into problems.  Your ears might look "off".  Even those beautiful eyes might not look as pretty.  The nose is the "center" of the face, so to speak, and you weren't clocked in the center.  Work from the outside, in.

Aeron

Oh... the nose is way past the beak stage Aeron... LOL... but thank you for the kind comments :)

The people that said it was bad... they saw the other pictures I had up for a while. Thanks for the tip on covering
up parts of the face... that really helps to see what needs work. But I really think the nose needs work and it's
really the easiest to fix and has a very short recovery.

Here is a before and after.... I really hesitated posting the BEFORE again because the AFTER REALLY makes the BEFORE look SO
horrible. I had no idea how bad it was until I saw the AFTER. The nose, chin, upper lip and forehead were changed. I
think what helped the most was the chin and nose. The AFTER makes the BEFORE forehead LOOK so male but...
I think a lot of that is just lighting in this picture... in the mirror and other pictures it does not seem bad at all and
I'm really critical of that area. This is also one of my worst pictures as far as looking like a guy... I put it up initially
because it was so bad and I wanted good input on what I needed to change. The after picture looks very
much like my sister and my mom when she was young.

After seeing these pictures I really think I'd be very happy with the nose and minor chin work. I think the
changes to the chin are very minor and easily doable. I have no idea if the nose is... I know surgeons can't work
miracles but even a small reduction will help a lot in my opinion.

Photo removed for privacy :)

I have to give many thanks to Myanne (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5586)...
she is a doll and did this for me. She is a very talented 3d digital artist and you can see more of her wonderful
work at her web site: http://mychelle-anne-daigle.com/ (http://mychelle-anne-daigle.com/). I think everyone should tell
her it's OK to charge for doing virtual FFS for people... she does not want to accept payment but I
think it's well worth whatever she wants to charge.

I had loaded the before picture on HotOrNot.com... as a test... lol... it was a painful test and I
was rated 8.2. If anyone is not familiar with that site 8.2 is really low... girls in that range are
not very attractive. So I loaded the new improved after and I scored 9.0 after 600 votes... the
girls that score a 9 on the site are usually somewhat attractive so I felt pretty good. You have
to show some skin or boobs to get much above that so for a head shot only... I'll gladly take a 9.0.

And I'm focusing on the positive... all the people that chose 10. Please don't get me wrong, this is
all from someone that has struggled for her entire life seeing the ugly male face in the mirror... and I'll gladly
take the 8.2... and getting to the 9.0... that makes me smile because I know I can do this now. I know
I can get to the point where I can blend in and be just another girl. I've said it before... I don't have to
be pretty... but I do have to be a passable female and I think I can get close.

pic removed

QuoteWow Amanda, you truly are beautiful!!!! *sooooo jealous*

Thanks Chelsea :) You might not say that after seeing these pics :(

Amanda

Hi Amanda, after living as who I am for the past eight years I think I am quite past the jealousy part. I am comfortable with who I am. I am an elder, but ya I see some pretty ladies pictures makes me wish I was younger. I must admit that the second picture of you with the touch ups on the chin and nose certainly make a big difference. Hey girl, if you can afford it then go for it. Just don't forget the very important need for electrolysis which was my first step when I began. Actually I didn't take any other steps, I put on weight after HRT which helped to file out my face more.

Good luck hon

Cindy

Thanks Cindy, I know hair removal is a biggie and plan to do that as a given and HRT is helping
a lot but it won't change the nose. :)

Amanda

Hi Amanda yes you are right about the nose it will not interfere with the electrolosis, except for like in ((Double ouch city!!!!)) :o) But I would certainly put a hold on the chin until you have completed electrolysis or laser, which ever you pick to get done. Goodness can you imagine just how strong we Trans ladies have to be to get through all this stuff, Strong constitutionally I speak of here.

Cindy

Absolutely gorgeous still Amanda  :D I'd give you a 18/10 any day!!!  :D

Thank you sweet Chelsea :)

Amanda, you should see MY face :(  It is FUGLY.  At this point unless I can be convinced that any pictures I put up here are NOT me, then I'm not going to do it:D  In a nutshell here is what my face looks like:

- very full lips (when I was in school up through high school I was called "fish lips")

- big nose that has so many problems:
(a) deviated septum to the left of the bridge
(b) uneven nostrils because of the deviated septum
(c) end of nose has a ball shape to it ... I was also called "ski ramp nose"

- lazy left eye (not horrible, but it's noticeable)

- uneven jawline, if I shift my lower jaw to my right, the jawlines look *better*, but then my entire bite is thrown off as well as my lips not lining up properly.....obviously I can't speak like that, either.a

- severe hair loss, really bad widow's peak

- ears are assymetrical (left ear is slightly closer to the the head than the right one)

- left eyebrow is partially bald where someone pulled a cruel joke on me in high school by lighting a lighter in my face

I have a LONG WAY to go before I'll be anywhere near "passable".  Mostly likely that's all just a dream (cruel one at that) for me.  Hell, my wife really has nothing to worry about, in terms of me "becoming a woman". 

If you are not aware, Amanda, rhinoplasty (nose job) is SERIOUS surgery.  There have been a lot of screwups where someone's nose wound up looking far worse than before.  I know of one case where an "open" surgery was done and the guy's entire nose rotted from the inside-out, because of an infection that the plastic surgeon (from Texas) could have prevented.  Think long and hard before you decide to undergo something like that.  The recovery process is a LONG one, as you won't know for months (sometimes years) whether the results will look the way you wanted.  If you screw your nose up, that may be it.  Don't mean to scare you, but that's the harsh reality of it. 

Aeron

QuoteIf you are not aware, Amanda, rhinoplasty (nose job) is SERIOUS surgery.  There have been a lot of screwups where someone's nose wound up looking far worse than before.  I know of one case where an "open" surgery was done and the guy's entire nose rotted from the inside-out, because of an infection that the plastic surgeon (from Texas) could have prevented.  Think long and hard before you decide to undergo something like that.  The recovery process is a LONG one, as you won't know for months (sometimes years) whether the results will look the way you wanted.  If you screw your nose up, that may be it.  Don't mean to scare you, but that's the harsh reality of it.

Wow...I thought it was no big deal... I guess I should really think about it. And plan on going to a nost guy that
has a pretty good rep. Thanks for that info.

Amanda

I had a rhino, while the final result takes time, it depends mostly on how thick your nose skin is.
The thicker it is, the bigger the swelling and the longer the recovery.
Most men have thick nose skin (not me, its very very thin).

I had close to final result within 2 months and was quite presentable within 3 weeks (though at that time, it barely looked smaller than before because of the swelling).


The more work they do, thicker the skin, the longer the recovery and the more unpredictable the result. Its usually better to undercompensate than overcompensate because rebuilding the nose is way way thougher than reducing it.

The more operation you get on the nose, the more unpredictable the result because of scar tissues inside the nose and the diminished support from cutting in the cartilage. Up to two is usually OK, but make sure you
get a very good guy for the second one (if you need it).

Ironically, subtle results are harder to get than bigger results, because it takes great deal of experience to know how subtle cuts and sutures will heal.
Bigger changes, usually, people see the overall result rather than small imperfections so
it less of a challenge.

The nose job has one of the highest disatisfaction rates of plastic surgery operations, not
because the surgeon messed up, most of those not satisfied got just about what they wanted,
but what you got is not always what you needed (I'm getting philosophical here... )

I like what Keira had to say about that.  I just feel that a nose job should be the LAST thing on the list of 'passability' factors to consider.  I'd take being an OK looking girl (face it, guys will bang a chick with 3 eyeballs if her booty is A+), or even an ugly one, ANY DAY over having a messed up nose.

Aeron

P.S.  My nose IS big, but my real mother's nose was big, too and she was very pretty :D

I know what you guys are saying... it's risky and I might not be happy,  but don't you think I really
need a rhino?

Amanda

Amanda, you have to make the decision.  Therefore I am not "saying" anything.  What I suggest that you do, again, is EVERYTHING you can do to make your face look feminine UP TO the point of evaluating whether you still want, or need, a rhino.  There are many beautiful women out there with big noses.  Not many have hair on their face, a Michael Jackson chin, or a tiny Adam's Apple.  Remember the trick I showed you about covering parts of your face to see how certain parts impact other parts?  You know how the bottom of your face compares to the top (the top includes your nose).  It's not even close.  Do this:  Fix all those things on the BOTTOM of the face, then go back to covering the top and bottom halves of your face, including and excluding your nose.  You will have a much better understanding of whether you need a rhino.  Save the riskiest for the last, Amanda. 

Aeron

Thanks Aeron :)

Amanda

Although there are many women with big noses, what's considered big in a women is not the same as in a man.

But, I do concur, Rhino or any surgery is a personal decision and that's how I took it.
I took it for myself, not for others.

That doesn't mean you should never have surgery either and live with what god gave you
(which I hear often also, that's pure crap). God also gave us malaria, should we live with that...

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 26, 2008, 04:23:07 PM
I know what you guys are saying... it's risky and I might not be happy,  but don't you think I really
need a rhino?

Amanda

Well, you know, they are almost extinct, so if you really want a rhino, you'll have to move quickly.  ;D

~Simone,
     In one of THOSE moods today...

QuoteIn one of THOSE moods today...

lol... I can tell...

Amanda

Quote from: AeronTG on April 27, 2008, 11:29:20 PM
Amanda, you have to make the decision.  Therefore I am not "saying" anything.  What I suggest that you do, again, is EVERYTHING you can do to make your face look feminine UP TO the point of evaluating whether you still want, or need, a rhino.  There are many beautiful women out there with big noses.  Not many have hair on their face, a Michael Jackson chin, or a tiny Adam's Apple.  Remember the trick I showed you about covering parts of your face to see how certain parts impact other parts?  You know how the bottom of your face compares to the top (the top includes your nose).  It's not even close.  Do this:  Fix all those things on the BOTTOM of the face, then go back to covering the top and bottom halves of your face, including and excluding your nose.  You will have a much better understanding of whether you need a rhino.  Save the riskiest for the last, Amanda. 

THis makes no sense to me.  IMO it's best to do it all at once.  One surgery, one anesthesia, one absence from work etc.

As far as the rhino infection thing: Scare tactics as far as I'm concerned.  The problem is NOT the procedure.  The problem is we're developing more and more superbugs and nosocomial (hospital acquired) infections are up as a result.  I work in a hospital I should know.  As long as you go to a well qualified surgeon you should be okay.


rant/ And Amanda:


STOP ASKING OTHERS TO MAKE YOUR DECISION!  TAKE CHARGE/RESPONSIBILITY!  IF YOUR NOSE BOTHERS YOU, FIX IT!


/rant

Quote from: Beyond on May 01, 2008, 07:21:24 AM
rant/ And Amanda:


STOP ASKING OTHERS TO MAKE YOUR DECISION!  TAKE CHARGE/RESPONSIBILITY!  IF YOUR NOSE BOTHERS YOU, FIX IT!

With no intention to insult you I have to say I haven't read something like this in a long time...
Completely out-of-context... Asking for advice is hardly not taking charge/resposnibility
or having somene else make your decisions.
Question is: does she need FFS? cuz in some cases (which i think are minority) FFS is
needed for passing rather than wanted for pretty looks
If she had that i know it all attitude she probably wouldn't be here in the first place

QuoteTHis makes no sense to me.  IMO it's best to do it all at once.  One surgery, one anesthesia, one absence from work etc.

As far as the rhino infection thing: Scare tactics as far as I'm concerned.  The problem is NOT the procedure.  The problem is we're developing more and more superbugs and nosocomial (hospital acquired) infections are up as a result.  I work in a hospital I should know.  As long as you go to a well qualified surgeon you should be okay.


rant/ And Amanda:


STOP ASKING OTHERS TO MAKE YOUR DECISION!  TAKE CHARGE/RESPONSIBILITY!  IF YOUR NOSE BOTHERS YOU, FIX IT!


/rant

Thank you for the information Beyond. It does seem like I'm bringing it up over and over, but in my defense this
question/topic was posted March 17th... and it has gone on and on... I feel the need to respond to people
when they post to it, since I was asking for help. And you are right... I need to take responsibly for my nose and a
lot of other things :)

Mari, I think it comes down to what I need to feel good about myself. So I've decided that
as soon as I can emotionally handle it I'm going to get something done whether I need it or not.

Mari and Beyond... please don't let this disagreement descend into another argument. Things get said here
with the best of intentions and they are often misinterpreted. Please please please, lets all try to keep that in mind.
I came back... lol... after my 13 hours absence... because of the love I felt in everyone's concern, and I'm going to
spread that love not hate :) I will disagree with others I'm sure but the first thing I'm going to ask is
"Where their intentions good?"... and in this case I'd say yes.

Amanda

The best cure for controversy on the boards is state your opinions and suggestions, if they be supportive, and if what is said doesn't not set well with you, then may I suggest that one stays away from that controversial thread or repetitive subject, *simple solution*. Even a mild natured person like me had to get whacked along side the head with a sucker-fish a few times before I learned that lesson.

Cindy