Susan's Place Transgender Resources

After hearing certain things from crossdressers such as the desire to dress is something they don't have control over and they have felt this way from a young age, I want to propose the question for discussion:

Is crossdressing a very mild form of transsexualism?

I know crossdressers don't want to alter their bodies, but as mentioned above there are some similarities.  It seems like a good time to pose this question as I have heard similar discussion in other topics.

Melissa

Melissa,

I would suggest that crossdressing is a mild form of transgenderism.

I would also suggest that transexualism is a radical form of ->-bleeped-<-.  (No insult is intended or implied by describing transexualism in this way.)

These expressions are at opposite ends of the transgender spectrum.

Chaunte

I suppose that's one way of putting it.  I can't personally speak for crossdressers because I do not fully understand it, but I can speak about transsexualism.

Melissa

Melissa,

I could answer this question a number of ways. There are many different people in the transgender comunity so I think it may be hard to generlise. I think the best answer I could give at the moment is:

No - Cross dresses consider themself to have two genders (Male/Female) compared to a TS who only has a single gender.

However we do many things in a similar fashion and I have seen lot of evidence on this site that Cross Dressing can be a precursor to many people coming out a TS. Those who stay as a CD are the people with two genders.

Alice

No, crossdressing/crossdressers are not mild form of transsexualism. In fact I believe its a whole other ballgame.

(some "crossdressers" may later become transsexuals, but this because TG feelings and terminlogy are often confusing at first and it is only later down the road they are able to clearly define themselves.

One of the support groups I'm involved with has roughly equal numbers of people who self-identify as TS and CD. It's interesting to look at the differences, not only between TS's and CD's, but especially among CD's.

We get into the problem again of labeling people; it's far from an either/or situation. Some of the CD's seem very much like TS's who, for whatever reasons, either don't want to transition, or feel they are unable to do so. A couple of people in this category have gotten to the point, since I've been involved in the group, of identifying as TS, and at least one has started to transition. I would say that for these people at least, crossdressing was a symptom, or an early stage, of being TS. Others seem perfectly happy where they are; they speak of the same compulsion to be female as TS's, but they seem able to deal with it as an occasional thing. Perhaps these show the 'mild form' of transsexuality that Melissa mentions.

On the other hand, there are others who seem perfectly content being CD's, and have no intention or even desire to transition.  They don't speak of a compulsion to dress, but rather of an escape from their day to day lives, of expressing the feminine side of themselves. They identify as males.

And of course, there are still others who are located somewhere along the continuum between the two groups.

The binary model of 'TS or CD' seems just as ragged as those of 'male or female' and 'gay or straight'.

Annie

The reason transsexualism can seem like crossdressing at first is because the transsexual usually goes into denial and creates a false persona or a "male construct" for the gender they were born as.  This is one of the mind's ways of dealing with this difference between the body it has and the one it expects.  However, at some point when the TS comes out of denial, they can see the difference between the false persona and their true selves.

Melissa

Quote from: Annie Social on May 07, 2006, 11:33:11 PM
On the other hand, there are others who seem perfectly content being CD's, and have no intention or even desire to transition.  They don't speak of a compulsion to dress, but rather of an escape from their day to day lives, of expressing the feminine side of themselves. They identify as males.

And then there are those CDrs who crossdress purely for erotic pleasure, without regard to expressing a "feminine side" at all. Humans are quite the varied species, lol.

I often wonder though if "expressing the feminine side of themselves" is a mild form of transsexualism?

Along the same lines, I often wonder about those who first begin crossdressing without any identity dysphoria, but who then later realize that they'd like to transition - is that the same sort of transsexualism as those who have the dysphoria first and THEN crossdress, or does the consistent crossdressing eventually lead to or cause, in a sense, the dysphoria?

All semantics in the end, I know, but still...

Kate wrote, "Along the same lines, I often wonder about those who first begin crossdressing without any identity dysphoria, but who then later realize that they'd like to transition - is that the same sort of transsexualism as those who have the dysphoria first and THEN crossdress, or does the consistent crossdressing eventually lead to or cause, in a sense, the dysphoria?"

That's a real chicken/egg question if you ask me.

In my experience, the eroticism that was personally inherent in cross dressing helped to ease and hide my dysphoria and I identified as a cross dresser simply to avoid the other possibilities.  I used the concept of my female soul reaching for occasional expression through cross dressing and fantasy and I never considered transition, I wasn't "one of those."  ^*sorry!*  I am sadly older and wiser now.

I said to my SO the other day, "It's not WHAT you do but WHY you do it."  And I mean the REAL why, not necessarily the reason that you give yourself. 

helen

Quote from: HelenW on May 08, 2006, 05:23:17 PM

In my experience, the eroticism that was personally inherent in cross dressing helped to ease and hide my dysphoria and I identified as a cross dresser simply to avoid the other possibilities.  I used the concept of my female soul reaching for occasional expression through cross dressing and fantasy and I never considered transition, I wasn't "one of those."  ^*sorry!*  I am sadly older and wiser now.

Helen,

It seams that I am on your path. Everyday I seam to take little steps that get me closer to not being able to go back. When did not decide that you needed to transistion to complete yourself and you where not just a CD? Once there one event or just a series of little events? I am still looking for a way out as I do not want to transistion and I still consisder myself a CD. I am hoping that my sport will keep me sane.

Alice

Great topic eh Alice :)

So here I go again...

I do not support that Cross-dressing is a mild form of Transsexualism.  My view.  There are cross-dressers and there are transsexuals and there are those who are somewhere in between, the definitions of each are vastly different.  There are transsexuals who cross-dressed before transition and may not have known they were TS, and there are transsexuals who did not cross-dress until they started transition, they were all TS, not CD turning into TS.  I really can't see a therapist diagnosing anyone with a "Mild form".

Yep I can see where this is a chicken/egg issue

Steph

Step,

Yep, It is a very familar topic and I have asked many question very similar to this. For now I think I know where I sit -  thats is I have two genders within hence will remain a CD. I hope this view of myself does not change down the track.

You I will notice that I said cross dressing could be a precursor to someone coming out as a TS and I think we where trying to say the same thing but is a different way so lets not spit hairs over the wording.

Alice

I'm glad I started such a lively topic. :)

As has been stated, but perhaps needs clarification:

Crossdressing may be a symptom that a person is transsexual.  However, one who is a true crossdresser, does not "turn into" a transsexual.  Also, if somebody already knows they have the dysphoria and then dresses in clothing of the sex opposite of their birth sex, then they are not crossdressing, because they are dressing as the gender they identify as, which is their true gender.

Melissa

Here we go  - around and around.

Technically I can see where you are coming from - if someone has two genders within (male/female)  how can they cross dress. Well I guess then it all comes down to feelings. I have only accepted I have two genders within because:

1) My feminine actions/compulsion (not limited to dressing but my biggest expression)
2) My apperance when dresses. Many people have said I look natural in a skirt with the latest person being when I went for the glamor shots (see the thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2603.0.html and comment if you wish).
3) Everyone knows that I am happy when I wear a skirt and rather said when I  put them away.

For the most part I act and feel male and hence when I wear a skirt I feel like I am 'crossing the line'. Maybe down the track that line will blur and I feel more at ease with myself.

I could write more but bested do some work. Will try to add some more tonight.

Alice

Ok Ladies,

As the only guy I have seen in here so far, I would like to jump in, and probably get my head bitten off lol

But, first, I do not believe that 90% of all TS people are suffering from any Dysphoria at all. I think that is one of the most damaging things that has been taught to our population of people.  We are all the Sex, (Please note I did not say Gender) that we are ascribing to.  The difference is that the physical evidence is not so easily observible.  Therefore we have been denied the very natural part of the sex spectrum that we actually occupy.

I have to ask myself, all those years before I was "allowed" to transition, like childhood, teen years and my very early twenties, when I dressed as the male I am, was I cross dressing? I don't think so, but then define what cross dressing is, if my "true" sex has always been male.  I do not believe that we "change" our sex, I believe we "correct" our sex status by altering our bodies for the sake of society around us, beingn able to see us for who we are, in the two boxed society that does not allow for fluid identities.

Now there were a few times that I was "FORCED"  to wear a dress...okay I admit it, I had to dress drag, but let me say it made me feel like I was "Cross Dressing" and I hated it, it was not by choice.   That was the only time I ever cross dressed in my view.

Now, this whole "Gender" word, it is getting used very interestingly. My gender has always been masculine, but I can see where for some they had to play a different gender to survive prior to transitioning. However a CD is actually addressing Gender issues, not Sex Identity issues in my opinion.  A CD is gender bending. A TS person is bending the lines of sexual identity.

I do agree that there are a lot of CD's that are in denial of their TS issues, but it is a coping skill that is allowing them sanity as they come to terms with the real nature of their issues, so it serves a pretty productive thing, in my opinion. However in reality the only cross dressing the TS person that is calling themselves a CD is really doing is when they dress as the sex they do not feel related to.

I know that most likely some people will not agree with what I have said here. In no way do I mean to offend anyone, and I respect all that I have read above before posting this. I just wanted to share my view on this.  Hope it was ok to just jump in!

Peace,

Taylor

An unsaid cd factor is that our transgender desires grow with our age. I know it has been true for me and have many other cd's say the same thing. It seems most of us who live full time are older. I'm not sure why that is, but I can quess a few.

It was the times...back in the 60's I felt I had no choice but hide and denie it. With changing cultral views I am now much more free to express my transgender.
or
That we naturally try to denie being transgender....but that it is impossible. As we get older we have to accept we are transgender because our femme side is negleted...and wants out badly.
or
Missunderstanding ourselves. Sometimes, it takes time to unravel something as complex as being transgender.

To be TG is not the norm and we have only been free to even say we are TG in the last 50 years. We have only put words and terms to us in the last 90 years. Think about that...there is not a word for the oppisite to "tomboy".

We are 1st generations of transgenders to be free.

Maybe if in 1963 when I was 6 yrs old...if I could have been free and understood to be transgender...than I would just be a 49 year old woman now. Sadly that is not how it worked out. Instead I spent 30 years in denial and fear of being found out. So now I am a happy cd/tv who has accepted my  transgender life, live openly and honestly now, and have made the most of it...living my life as both genders because (for me) its too late for me.

Love
DebTV

Here is a new poll: Has your transgender desires grown with your age?
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,3010.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,3010.0.html)

Quote from: taylor on May 08, 2006, 11:28:48 PM
Ok Ladies,

As the only guy I have seen in here so far, I would like to jump in, and probably get my head bitten off lol

I don't think that anyone will bite your head off Taylor but I have to offer alternatives to some of what you wrote.

QuoteBut, first, I do not believe that 90% of all TS people are suffering from any Dysphoria at all. I think that is one of the most damaging things that has been taught to our population of people.  We are all the Sex, (Please note I did not say Gender) that we are ascribing to.  The difference is that the physical evidence is not so easily observible.  Therefore we have been denied the very natural part of the sex spectrum that we actually occupy.

I would have to say that 90% of TS people would disagree with you.  How can you make such a statement such as that,  have you met with and discussed this with 90% of the TS population, or is this an assumption based on your own experience.  Don't forget that this is a world wide issue and to further add I can't for the life of me recall any mention of anything damaging related to TS being taught to me and those who I know, I know that those damaging subjects, whatever they may be, are not taught here.

QuoteI have to ask myself, all those years before I was "allowed" to transition, like childhood, teen years and my very early twenties, when I dressed as the male I am, was I cross dressing? I don't think so, but then define what cross dressing is, if my "true" sex has always been male.  I do not believe that we "change" our sex, I believe we "correct" our sex status by altering our bodies for the sake of society around us, beingn able to see us for who we are, in the two boxed society that does not allow for fluid identities.

That's exactly right.  By definition that is why a TS is not a CD as they/we/I wear the cloths appropriate to their/our/my gender.  A MtF who wears Female cloths is not cross-dressing, however for example, a MtF who wears Male cloths to hide or mask the fact that they are TS is cross-dressing.  SRS is often a disputed term, and I agree with current definitions that the surgery "corrects" our anatomical sex organs to match our gender.  However, other than visual exterior clues, rarely would society around us be aware of any corrections we have made to our bodies, unless they were told of course.

QuoteNow there were a few times that I was "FORCED"  to wear a dress...okay I admit it, I had to dress drag, but let me say it made me feel like I was "Cross Dressing" and I hated it, it was not by choice.   That was the only time I ever cross dressed in my view.

By definition.

QuoteNow, this whole "Gender" word, it is getting used very interestingly. My gender has always been masculine, but I can see where for some they had to play a different gender to survive prior to transitioning. However a CD is actually addressing Gender issues, not Sex Identity issues in my opinion.  A CD is gender bending. A TS person is bending the lines of sexual identity.

I think there are CD's who would disagree that they are bending anything, as cross-dressers do it for a wide variety of reasons some of which have nothing to do with gender, but simply the comfort level etc...  As for TS I don't believe there is any bending of anything, I am a woman period, no bending of anything.

QuoteI do agree that there are a lot of CD's that are in denial of their TS issues, but it is a coping skill that is allowing them sanity as they come to terms with the real nature of their issues, so it serves a pretty productive thing, in my opinion. However in reality the only cross dressing the TS person that is calling themselves a CD is really doing is when they dress as the sex they do not feel related to.

Agree as mentioned previously.

QuoteI know that most likely some people will not agree with what I have said here. In no way do I mean to offend anyone, and I respect all that I have read above before posting this. I just wanted to share my view on this.  Hope it was ok to just jump in!

I don't think that anyone would take offence and as far as jumping in to a topic, well that is the nature of the forums - room enough for everyone.

Steph

Stephanie,

I am going to try and address each thing you said.  First

I did not say that being TS was damaging!!! That is NOT at all what I said or intended, Being told we have a "Condtion" verses being a Natural part of the human population is what I feel is damaging to the TS pop. and NO I did not get this from my own personal experience, I got it from many years of talking to people through out the US in the Trans population, and conducting extensive research.  TS is not a Dysphoria for everyone! I am referring to the Dysphoria issue, what about, hey we are all just part of a human sexual identity scope folks? Many of us do not suffer from a Dysphoria or mental illness, we suffer from a society that has denied the fluidity of sexual identities.

I totally agree with the whole defining things with my dressing as a male, back as a child, because I am and was a male then. I did not ( Rrefer to the above) ever suffer from a dysphoria and many of us did not, and do not. Please note that I am not saying that no one does, but the numbers are really low. Using a large sample population is how I came up with this figure.  I could not be but so random because a random population is always very tough to define by definition.

You state " there are CD's who would disagree that they are bending anything."  Expressing our natural Gender range ( it varies from people to people of course) but expressing it through dressing in fem or masculine clothing, back and forth for various periods of times, be it an hr a day or a week here and there, is fundementally bending the rules of gender. I don't mean anything negative by it, I just mean that it is going against the social rules of gender, as established by the society they live in. Yes I realize there are some ( very few) socieities that may not have dress codes for assigned gender roles, but they are pretty few and the majority of people who cross dress, in their culture they are "bending" the rules.  Please no one take that as a insult, Personally I believe it needs more bending, so that the fluidness of our true natures can be expressed and not so repressed. But that "IS" a personal view of my own there.

Stephanie, I appreciate you writing back. I would hate for anyone to think that I believed being TS is damaging!! No way do I hold that belief!!! I am TS by definition! And I am not damaged, quite functional actually lol.  I enjoy reading your writing and sharing a lot! 

Peace,
Taylor

Quote from: taylor on May 09, 2006, 12:42:02 PMI did not ( Rrefer to the above) ever suffer from a dysphoria and many of us did not, and do not. Please note that I am not saying that no one does, but the numbers are really low...

Wait... how are we defining "dysphoria" then?

What is gender dysphoria?

Gender dysphoria, also known as 'gender identity disorder', is a medical term for anxiety, confusion or discomfort about birth gender.

This was taken from this site:

http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+gender+dysphoria.htm

I for one felt "discomfort about birth gender" from early childhood. I felt unhappy at what society saw me as, what society told me I was, (I wasn't uncomfortable with who I knew I was).   I was uncomfortable with the genitals I was born with and knew they were incorrect for who I really was. 

Isn't that "dysphoria"?

Maybe I am taking the definition too stricktly, I tend to do that sometimes.

Sarah L.

This is my attempt to be a little clearer,  please bare with me:

The Gender Identity Disorders in DSM III ---Transsexualism

DSM III characterizes the Gender Identity Disorders first as a whole and a series of subgroups. As a group the Gender Identity Disorders are described as follows:

The essential feature of the disorders included in this subclass is an incongruence between anatomic sex and gender identity. Gender identity is the sense of knowing to which sex one belongs, that is, the awareness that 'I am male' or 'I am female'. Gender identity is the private experience of gender role and gender role is the public expression of gender identity. Gender role can be defined as everything that one says and does, including sexual arousal, to indicate to others or to oneself the degree to which one is male or female.

On the whole I think this is a good definition.

They go on to include the following description of individuals with this condition.
• They usually complain that they are uncomfortable wearing the cloths of their own anatomic sex.
Who Defines what "sex" person is, there is no absolute clarity in what male and female even are!•
They often choose to engage in activities that are generally associated with the other sex.
What "other" sex? I am the sex I have transitioned my status to and to do so to appease society I had to transition my body to be "more" fitting.

• They often find their genitals repugnant which may lead to persistent requests for sex reassignment by surgical or hormonal means.

Of course it was repugnant, after all was I not throughly conditioned by society to feel like I was "not" the male I knew I was, was the key not in changing my body so that I could be like other males? How deeply rooted socialization is, how deeply rooted this scared me, and I being human changed my body to "fit", because yes  I could not relate to what was assigned "female" when I was indeed a male.
• To varying degrees, their behavior, dress and mannerisms are those of the other sex.

There's that word again "other" sex, I was never a member of  the sex assigned me, therefore how could I be dressing in the mannerisms of a "other" sex, by dressing as the boy I really was??? when in fact when you forced me to dress as the "girl" I NEVER was, was forcing me to dress in the "other" sex?
• They have moderate to severe coexisting personality disturbances.

I have never had a personality disturbance that was not induced by those who kept forcing me to live in the Wrong sex that had been assigned me. I was being denied my very identity given to me by Nature. If a person were to raise a child "deliberately in the "opposite sex" they would be convicted of child abuse most likely. But when it has been done accidently as in the case of most TS and IS persons, it has gone ignored. The damage done to us emotionally causing some mental health issues, is reverted back and blamed as part of our "condition".

• They frequently experience considerable anxiety and depression.

What guy would not be depressed when forced to live as something they are not? What woman would not be depressed when forced to live as something they are not, all based on science that fails repeatedly at each turn, and has not found any solid evidence to what Male and Female is, other than what it wont' admit. It is not "Fixed" into place as two solid and non fluid categories.

• Without treatment, the course is chronic and unremitting.

Pretty logical that this would work. We cannot change such a deep rooted set of beliefs , we cannot change society, so therefore we change ourselves.

In 1994, with the release of the DSM IV, the section entitled Gender Identity Disorders was replaced with the singular term, Gender Identity Disorder (GID) and subdivided into three, rather then four areas: Gender Identity Disorder in Children, Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescence and Adults, and Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.

The term "Transsexualism" was eliminated. Most importantly, perhaps is that GID was reclassified as being a sexual disorder rather then a psychological one. It is listed directly after Voyeurism and Paraphilia in the Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders section.  

It is my hope that this clears up what I am referring to. 


Please see the following website for where I got this from.  The blue writing is in there, and I have written in Maroon. I bolded the last line in blue, it was not bold.  I did not ever have a problem Knowing I was a male,, I had a problem with society allowing me to be. It is not I that was confused about my sex, it was society that was confused. I had to straiten it out for all involved. Yes I am human, and knowing what I know today I still have the need for my body to "fit" into the male I am. That is how deeply rooted this all is.   One has to ascribe to the belief that a penis is only owned by "males", and then you have to believe that only a "woman" can have a vaginal opening. Based on this then yea, ok, you'd have a dysphoria, but if you reach further and realize that this is not true, does it not open up a whole new ball game so to speak?  The evidence is out there that biological sex is not being determined accurately much less consistantly. Thanks for letting me share my opinion.

Website  http://www.avitale.com/hbigdatalkplus2005.htm

Peace,

Taylor