Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm joining a health club to get myself into better shape.  The law in California as well as the rules of the club I'm joining allow me to use she locker room and spa facilities without clothing if I so choose.  Even though I can I hesitate to do so because of the embarrassment it might cause the other women in the locker room as well as myself.  I'd like to find out what others would do and why.  Any thoughts?

Uh... no!  Can anyone say bursting the bubble?  While I desperately shy away from things that require bathing suits or leotards, as a pre-op I can still convince myself that I am all woman, while showering with no clothes WITH ANYONE would definitely bring the harsh reality to the forefront.  And for all those pre-op girls out there who are screaming you are all woman, personally I can not say that with my current anatomy.  It just ain't happening.

Quote from: amy2003 on March 18, 2008, 09:46:05 PM
Uh... no!  Can anyone say bursting the bubble?  While I desperately shy away from things that require bathing suits or leotards, as a pre-op I can still convince myself that I am all woman, while showering with no clothes WITH ANYONE would definitely bring the harsh reality to the forefront.  And for all those pre-op girls out there who are screaming you are all woman, personally I can not say that with my current anatomy.  It just ain't happening.

I think it can be said. But, if it were me I wouldn't press it to that point in an open shower.

If the showers were stalled, well, that tends to be different anyway. One goes in dressed and comes out dressed and what's seen in the stall is only seen by her.

But, I voted to go home anyhow. *shrug*

N~

I would think that you would want to go home for the task.  Really, there is no sense in enraging the public.  This is the very thing that they use against us in all of these bigoted articles we've seen of late (especially in Maryland).

Why should we give them ammunition for this issue when there are so many others that are so much more important for us?

On a personal note... when I used my health club membership, I NEVER used the locker room there, even though I had my surgery and at the time was very fit. I just get very embarrassed.... not unlike many other women.

Cindi

I would just like to echo what the others before me have said.

We are in these places to gain acceptance, to fit in, to be able socialize and be apart of the experience only women can experience.  Throwing controversy in their faces, forcing them to deal with you is not the route you want to take.  Savor the experience, share in their company, but don't ostracize yourself.  It's a Real Life Test, not a Real Life proTest.

Steph

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 18, 2008, 10:16:30 PM
I would think that you would want to go home for the task.  Really, there is no sense in enraging the public.  This is the very thing that they use against us in all of these bigoted articles we've seen of late (especially in Maryland).

Why should we give them ammunition for this issue when there are so many others that are so much more important for us?


Cindi

This is San Francisco, CA not a suburban County in Maryland.  There is no issue about anyone's right to do this.  You can use whatever facilities that match you gender identity even if you're the man in a dress with a full beard.  It's been this way for years.  Transgender rights were first supported in The City in 1968. 

UGh its common courtesy.  No one wants to see someone elses thing dangling about in the locker room, mens or womens.

Audrey

Quote from: Audrey on March 19, 2008, 01:43:25 AM
UGh its common courtesy.  No one wants to see someone elses thing dangling about in the locker room, mens or womens.

Audrey

My sentiments too. If you HAVE to use the showers, wear bottoms. It's a better idea though to go home, probably.

While we might have the right in California to shower naked in the women's shower room at a health club, with other women present, to me it would be rude to do so if you were not post op. 

Unless your at a nudist club (I have showered with women there). 

But then, that is just me.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 19, 2008, 10:37:23 AM
While we might have the right in California to shower naked in the women's shower room at a health club, with other women present, to me it would be rude to do so if you were not post op. 

Unless your at a nudist club (I have showered with women there). 

But then, that is just me.


Sarah L.

I'm not going to shower without a bottom on even though it would be legal.  I just wanted to make it clear tp Cindi that a controversy like the one in Maryland is not a possibility.  I'm out but I don't think I want to be that out!   :embarrassed:

Tekla once said that SF is 49 square miles surrounded by reality and she was right.  It's not that it's a paradise here it's just that a lot of TG issues in other parts of the country have been settled here.  Bigotry still exists but it's not tolerated.  It frees us up to contend with the soaring housing prices, unemployment rates, homelesness and a host of other problems that we face.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 19, 2008, 11:07:33 AM


I'm not going to shower without a bottom on even though it would be legal.  I just wanted to make it clear to Nichole that a controversy like the one in Maryland is not a possibility.  I'm out but I don't think I want to be that out!   :embarrassed:

Cindy mentioned Maryland.

Nichole is rather 'clear' about SF. One needn't live there to know a number of items that might be important to TS women and men when they are there.

So, just a small question: you "wanted to know what others would say and do."

So what was the problem, if any, with finding out?

N~

Quote from: Nichole on March 19, 2008, 12:02:06 PM

Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 19, 2008, 11:07:33 AM


I'm not going to shower without a bottom on even though it would be legal.  I just wanted to make it clear to Nichole that a controversy like the one in Maryland is not a possibility.  I'm out but I don't think I want to be that out!   :embarrassed:

Cindy mentioned Maryland.

Nichole is rather 'clear' about SF. One needn't live there to know a number of items that might be important to TS women and men when they are there.

So, just a small question: you "wanted to know what others would say and do."

So what was the problem, if any, with finding out?

N~

Yours post was the one prior to Cindi's and I was careless.  Please accept my apologies.

I have no problem.  I stated in my OP that legality was not a consideration in my decision.  I would not wind up on the evening news or in jail.  I was just clarifying that point.

I asked for other's opinions really to confirm my own feelings.  As familiar wih San Francisco as you are I'm sure you're aware that there are activists elements in the TG community that say "stand up for your rights girl, be who you are".  I also thought it would be a good topic.

No, no way. Even if it was ok by law, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so and I wouldn't feel comfortable if someone else did it either.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 19, 2008, 03:46:58 PM
I asked for other's opinions really to confirm my own feelings.  As familiar wih San Francisco as you are I'm sure you're aware that there are activists elements in the TG community that say "stand up for your rights girl, be who you are".  I also thought it would be a good topic.

Apology accepted.

Yes, I wondered if you maybe thought you'd have people suggesting that you 'defy convention.'

My thoughts run more to why bring a bathroom or shower-room into the equation as a point-of-contention? I rather think there are larger fish to land, and then, hopefully, fry.

N~

I'm not an activist by any means and I support the rights of other transpeople to do as they see fit. I guess I need to preface my opinion with that. I would like to blend in and not cause unwanted attention to myself, even if it is legal to do so. I'd rather go home and shower than alienate myself by taking a shower in public facilities. I don't even know that I'd wear swim bottoms, I'd probably be that paranoid. I live in Southern Cal and while not San Francisco, it's fairly open down here too. I wouldn't do that and I can't fathom doing that.  Just where I'm coming from, Meghan

I'd say if you're comfortable go for it... It's within your legal right to do so.

i think it's great that you're concerned with the comfort of the other women that will be there.  i'd probably wear a towel.  people may not realize what you're going through, and some people can be get very mean or violent., so i suggest maybe board shorts, some kind of loose clothing covering your lower half...

If I was pre-opp I would go home to shower, why create any problems when it can be avoided. I don't like upsetting people. But in all 8 years I been me full time I have never been in any situations where I had to use public showers anyway. Post-opp? using any public facilities, no problem.

Cindy

QuoteNo.  While she has the right, it would make other women uncomfortable

Well, I live in San Francisco, but still, although you have the right to go nude in the locker rooms, you also have the right to choose not to; and I think you're absolutely right to show discretion. The other women will appreciate your concern for their feelings, which can only be a good thing for you.

I personally feel that there is nothing to be gained by being blatant and 'in-your-face' about it.

Also, they may have some stipulation if someone were to alert the staff that they were uncomfortable. I'm not sure how that would work,  or if they would be able to get you in trouble despite the laws.

tink :icon_chick:

I usually find it best not to make a scene. If you think it would upset someone, then you might not want to do it.

Indeed, you have the legal right, and that is awesome. But that doesn't mean you should. Where I am from, I have the legal right to carry any sized knife/blade, as long as the handle (or some other identifiable portion) is clearly visible if it's over a certain length. That means I could walk downtown with katanas clearly visible, a claymore sword strapped to my back, and a bandoleer full of throwing knives and stars. However I certainly wouldn't (unless there is an event that warrants it, such as pirate day, but on those days I usually wear my rapier).

I think it's find to use the sauna and showers with some sort of bottoms on, such as swim bottoms (although I would probably lean towards the shorts style instead of the bikini style), at least to start with. If you get feeling more comfortable, and you get to know the other folks that frequent the place, then perhaps you'll feel more comfortable (and them more comfortable with who you are). These are the sorts of things we have to ease people into.

Personally, I am a bisexual androgyne, so I'm not really sure which locker room would be most appropriate for me. However to minimize confusion I use the guy locker room, because my 'equipment' is male, if it were female equipment I would probably use the girl locker room. This has nothing to do with MY comfort, but for the comfort of those around me.

But perhaps I give in to easy to the emotions and comfort of others and not enough into myself. Dunno.

This is what I fought in my city. I thought that if the person had the ID of a female before surgery, then they should use the womans facility but in a place where they are in private. I got told why do they need an ID for the restroom? I don't think they need any ID for a restroom just a shower and locker room. I think in CA. they need to put some provisions in their ordinance. People still don't like co-ed showers.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on March 20, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
This is what I fought in my city. I thought that if the person had the ID of a female before surgery, then they should use the womans facility but in a place where they are in private. I got told why do they need an ID for the restroom? I don't think they need any ID for a restroom just a shower and locker room. I think in CA. they need to put some provisions in their ordinance. People still don't like co-ed showers.
Sheila

So what kind prohibitions should we put in our law?  Who would be prohibited from doing what?  What should be the penalty for violating the law?

Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 20, 2008, 04:01:37 PM

Quote from: Sheila on March 20, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
This is what I fought in my city. I thought that if the person had the ID of a female before surgery, then they should use the womans facility but in a place where they are in private. I got told why do they need an ID for the restroom? I don't think they need any ID for a restroom just a shower and locker room. I think in CA. they need to put some provisions in their ordinance. People still don't like co-ed showers.
Sheila

So what kind prohibitions should we put in our law?  Who would be prohibited from doing what?  What should be the penalty for violating the law?

This world needs less legal documents that know one understands but lawyers.

I say the problem is not with the laws at all. If coed shower is not comfy for people, then why not have shower stalls? Then it wouldn't matter one bit. Legally I say you should be able to have coed showers, and if people don't want coed, then they can have private stalls! Simple!

Quote from: Sheila on March 20, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
People still don't like co-ed showers.

I prefer stalled showers, period.

I feel uncomfortable in a locker room even with other biological males.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 20, 2008, 04:56:39 PM

Quote from: Sheila on March 20, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
People still don't like co-ed showers.

I prefer stalled showers, period.

I feel uncomfortable in a locker room even with other biological males.

Also private showers for me! I flunked gym in HS because I didn't want to go into the locker room to change. I really couldn't see the point in even putting on the uniform if I was going to sit on the bench anyway. So I cut the class...

Z

I beat you Zythyra,

I got a D :)

But I took it on credit/no credit hehe.

To stay on the topic though, I personally wouldn't choose to use the womens shower, especially nude if I were pre op.  Not only would that be awkward and very outing, but it would also freak everyone else out and could only cause more problems, whether it be legal or not.  Nothing wrong with going home to shower :) 

Quote from: shanetastic on March 20, 2008, 06:11:55 PM
I personally wouldn't choose to use the womens shower, especially nude if I were pre op...

Me neither. Along with making everyone uncomfy, it would be so incredibly, terribly humiliating :(

Somehow this reminds me of your self-acceptance thread... in the same way you COULD go out crossdressed, but it's not the point... I suppose you COULD go (pre-op) naked in the women's shower, but it's also not the point (for me).

~Kate~

I finally joined the gym.  Today was the first time I went to use it.  I had the workout clothes on when I arrived so I just needed the locker to put my purse in.  I was really anxious about going in but went ahead and did it anyway.  Everything went fine.  I elected to go home to shower, of course.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 06:44:13 PM
I finally joined the gym.  Today was the first time I went to use it.  I had the workout clothes on when I arrived so I just needed the locker to put my purse in.  I was really anxious about going in but went ahead and did it anyway.  Everything went fine.  I elected to go home to shower, of course.

Hey Claire.

I also live in SF- which gym are you speaking of with trans friendly policies?  I'm not the public shower type (even if it were stalled, walled, lockable, whatever...) so wouldn't be running into issues using the men's locker room for that reason, but it'd still be nice to be somewhere friendly.

I use the mens locker room :)
wouldnt shower tho >.>

By 'naked' I assume it's meant that the situation is one of 'gang showers' where there is absolutely no privacy.  At the military base where I work, both the male and female locker rooms provide shower cubbies with a curtained space to change just outside the shower stall itself.

Both genders having this arrangement is unusual, architects and clients usually opting for the cheaper gang showers for the males and curtained stalls for the females, while a few cheap bastids will go with gang showers for both.

I used to have a janitorial business.  We had contracts to four healthclubs. All had curtained stalls for the women, two had them also for the men.

So I'd say that the idea behind the poll question is situational.

Is public nudity unavoidable (gang showers and rows of lockers and benches)?  Pre-op/non-op should be excluded.

Is there sufficient privacy (curtained shower stalls with changing areas)?  Barring other mitigating circumstances (but not prejudice or squeamishness), pre-ops and non-ops should be accomodated with the understanding they will make full use of available privacy screening when changing and showering.

And the regulatory pressure should be in the direction of accommodating -- not excluding -- transgenders from the start of RLT.  Make it easier to comply with that principle than to seek and employ loopholes to perpetuate discrimination.

As I was typing the last, I envisioned Christian Right groups building new health club facilities with gang showers and high school -style lockers with benches for the women's facility precisely to exclude transgenders from their midst.  I don't put it past them to lower the actual privacy an individual woman has just to maintain a discriminatory policy.

Okay, this has gotten goofy...

Karen

Karen, though pre-op, I've had a legal change of gender.  I can do whatever I wish but choose to avoid embarrasment for myself or other women.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 08:41:59 PM
Karen, though pre-op, I've had a legal change of gender.  I can do whatever I wish but choose to avoid embarrasment for myself or other women.

Understood!  ;)  That's why I said if there's privacy, you should be able to use the facility appropriate to your gender.

If it weren't for the squeamish in our society, I'd say that pre-ops and non-ops can use the gang showers alongside other women.  But, I think we agree that if you stood there with your factory-stock configuration, somebody (prolly several somebodies) would pitch the mother of all hissy-fits.  So my suggestions are suggestions only, taking into account the lack of understanding present in today's society, and in no way an intentional move to discriminate against pre-ops and non-ops.

=K