Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi all,

Here's a little sore spot for me. The longer I have thought about it, the more irritating it gets - kind of like a splinter under the skin that went unnoticed for awhile, but might get infected unless removed....

The term " >-bleeped-< "...

Simply put, I find this word/term to be quite offensive.... Ok - granted, there are much bigger things to worry about in the world today, so i dont really want to seem petty about it... But change often comes in expanded awareness of the smallest things sometimes, and i think many people have lost touch with the fact that words, specific language, and the use thereof, often actually contains a great deal of power... After all, the majority of our comunication as a species is done verbally or in writing, and words have much more power than people seem to wish to realize, remember, or admit sometimes...

To me, this so-called "word", as it sounds, gives me a very negative feeling. It literally makes me think of trash that needs to be taken out.... I guess "trashy" is the next most similar thought or feeling I have whenever i hear or see it.
My gut feeling is that maybe it was created by someone searching for another descriptive label or classification for something that they didn't understand - i dont know....

In any case, when i hear it or see it, it gives me a very unpleasant feeling.  I find it to be quite guttural and unpleasant in it's sounding. It feels inappropriately cheap (in a backhanded humour kind of way), shallow, sleazy, denigratory, and lacking in warmth, humanity, understanding, or compassion, of the very complex and beautiful people or persons being described in the use of this word. 

I find it a little disturbing and even somewhat offensive that some people are still willing to claim it, trade on it, or use it as any sort of "appropriate" or accurate descriptor or label.

Yes, i know, thicker skin is always desired, and the old saying "sticks and stones, etc.", but language has power, great power, and it has, can, and often continues to hurt people, and create real distortions and misperceptions, and often very deeply.

I believe that all people should be more aware of the language that we use, and the ways and reasons that we use it,  in many instances.

Thanks,

Lovingly always,


ChefAnnagirl

I use to feel the same way about these two words "She-male" and "faggot" two words that have a tendancy to cause me to want to throw someone down a flight of stairs...But lets not talk about my violent past.

I take comfort in myself when I do here these words by knowing these 2 things:
What is in a definition?
What is a "label"?
But the power and recognition you give that word yourself. Everyone is entitled to there own individual opinion no matter how narrow minded and assine it maybe.
Yes, I even respect those individuals who gay\transgender bash verbally because there expressing thereselves in the only way they know how. Afterall by a person using certain words is just there way of trying to understand a situation or individual even if it is out of fear or anger or pure confusion. I can't really get angry at a person for ignorance but thats just ME per say.

And I know nothing...But Who I am

>-bleeped-<, she-male, faggot...
Whatever it is you feel the need for me to be I am still nonetheless
CHYNNA

Quote from: ChefAnnagirlTo me, this so-called "word", as it sounds, gives me a very negative feeling. It literally makes me think of trash that needs to be taken out.... I guess "trashy" is the next most similar thought or feeling I have whenever i hear or see it.

Well I am not overly fond of most terms including transsexual, but they are what is most comonly used. I'm rather curious though about why you would feel a negative or maybe disparaging connotation hearing the word >-bleeped-<. Personally I see it as an abreiviation just the same way as when used to shorten transmission. Or Sandra to Sandi for that matter.

Of course if >-bleeped-<, transsexual or any labels including my name are said with a snear then that's an affront.

Quote from: ChefAnnagirlI believe that all people should be more aware of the language that we use in many instances.

Don't you think society has enough to try to understand without needling them about semantics? Besides I think that they are used more often within the transgender community.

Quote from: ChynnaI use to feel the same way about these two words "She-male" and "faggot" two words that have a tendancy to cause me to want to throw someone down a flight of stairs...But lets not talk about my violent past.

Chynna, "she-male" and "faggot" are meant in a totally different sense or usage and I take offense as either one. She-male is a name connected primarily with the porn industry, and faggot is a disparaging term used, not by the gay community, but many in society as a put-down.

Hi Chynna,

In many ways, I would agree...
However, I do feel that any form that is used in language and communication amongst all people, that continues in any way to support any sort of stereotypical view of any one person, group, or culture, no matter how subtle, should eventually be addressed, looked at, questioned, and discussed, especially by those that it may affect the most.

I addressed this particular terminology for two main reasons: One is that i believe that this is one of those "stereotypical labels" that supports no positive understanding or greater evolvement in this way, and secondly, I believe that addressing the "little things" like this, is one of the many ways that people can attain further growth, understanding of each other, and positive evolvement, even if it's only on a subtle and subconscious level to begin with...

To continue to ignore these things, no matter how small, I think is a grave mistake sometimes. People ignored Adolf Hitler's grab for power and consolidation until it was far too late, and millions then lost their lives due to persecution and brainwashed stereotypical conditioning because of it....

How many more historical instances will we need before people stop sweeping all the little things under the carpet, that eventually can and often do, add up to much bigger things, in the human psyche overall... ?
If people were to realize that it has to begin somewhere, especially in the subtle nuances of language, i believe it can and will make a difference. Many of us were taught that namecalling and insulting and teasing others (various forms of persecution), no matter how "innocent", is not acceptable, ethical, or just plain good manners. Too many people get away with their lies, hypocrisy, poor manners, and mistreatment of others in a multitude of ways, and eventually, it can and does lead to cultural misunderstanding and greater conflict.

To Sandi:

I think that your statement about "dosen't society have enough to understand without needling them about semantics" is a total cop-out. People aren't taking the time and effort to break down the walls of distortion that keep us all from having better understanding, and language usage and deeper awareness of the importance of such, is a key point in this equation. I feel that if this what you said were true, it would alleviate all people from the responsibility and the awareness of what I feel, and people in more ancient times and older cultures may have felt, is the utter SACREDNESS of truthful, true, accurate, loving, and sensitive communication with others. I would totally disagree, and there are far too many instances, especially in religion, politics, and human culture and history in general where even the slightest nuance, distortion, and/or miscommunication of what could have been purer or truer language usage, in any form including body, written, and all other non-verbal language, and therefore truer understanding, has been the primary cause for misunderstanding, hatred, bigotry, and persecution of fellow human beings by other human beings.

**** Edit 6/13 *** If no one ever stands up, and in the passion and truth of unconditional self-expression, asks the careless to be more careful, the unaware to be more aware, or stops the bully from picking on the weaker ones, or calls the gossip, the distortionist, the power-hungry, the bigot, the apathetic, or the liar out on their rudeness, hypocrisy, and misrepresentations of themselves and others, they will continue to be allowed so do, while far too many else often stand back and gleefully watches and listens, or simply turns aside. ****

Lovingly and respectfully,
Always,

ChefAnnagirl

The reason it's negative is because it's so often short for transvestite (which in itself I find offensive).  I don't think any transsexual likes being called a transvestite, because that's not what they are.  It implies they are still male and they identify with being male.  It could me either transsexual or transvestite, but the amibguity that lies within the context of it's use can cause some uncertainty about what the person using it is referring to and therefore it has negative connotations.

Melissa

ChefAnnagirl
I could not agree more wit you.....
All I can say is I love & admire your passion.

You are right
to ignore ignorance, is to subcome to it yourself....
Lesson well taught I owe you thanks ;D ;)

CHYNNA

Having used the word ">-bleeped-<" recently in one of my posts I think that I may have been the catalyst for this thread.  Please don't misunderstand, I'm not taking offense at the thread's subject matter, I wholeheartedly support and agree with everyone's contentions.

And that's why I used the word - because of its negative connotations.  I don't want people to look at me and immediately jump to their own, spurious misconception of who and what I am.  When I present as female I want to pass.  I used the word fully aware of what emotions it may create in people.  It was the right word to use to communicate what I meant.

But, of course, In my last sentence I'm giving the word more power, the power to create emotions, than it really has.  Any power that any word seems to have is not inherent in itself.  It is the listener who provides the emotional fuel that supplies its power.  Sandi hinted at that when she mentioned >-bleeped-< as an abbreviation for a transmission.  Taking it to mean that, there's no problem.  Those six letters, arranged in that form, have no inherent power.  It's the definition we apply that carries the emotional content.  The listener's interpretation, guided of course by the word's context, will give the word its apparent power.

That said, most words carry cultural connotations and those sometimes can be hurtful and even dangerous.  In that light, I'm sorry my choice of words may have resulted in undue discomfort.  But I stand by the use of it in the context of what I was trying to say.

helen

I don't like any labels that define people. We are all people of the Human race. Do we need to Identitfy ourselves even farther that just a person. I understand that I am a transexual, but when I introduce myself, I don't say "Hi, my name is Sheila Coats, caucasion Amercanize British Isle, transexual older person". I could add a lot more, but no I just say my name is Sheila. You can figure the rest out.
  If we are getting to what pet peeve we have, mine is Drag Queens and Kings. I so don't like them up on stage as the general public thinks that is what a trans person is all about. Where I work, one of the girls asked me why I don't wear a lot of makeup and have a lot of glamorous clothes. She thought that all transgender people are very glamorous. I told her that I was a woman and I don't dress like that and that if she liked it she could dress up like that. She told me hell no. It makes you look like a whore. I told her exactly and I'm not a whore. I'm just a regular woman who, if given the opportunity, to get all dressed up to go out to a play and dinner with your loved one will. Other than that, its very casual.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on June 02, 2006, 10:19:02 PM
Where I work, one of the girls asked me why I don't wear a lot of makeup and have a lot of glamorous clothes. She thought that all transgender people are very glamorous. I told her that I was a woman and I don't dress like that and that if she liked it she could dress up like that. She told me hell no.

LOL!  I'll have to remember that if I'm ever asked something along those lines.

Melissa

it's a word. someone has imbued it with some power apparently to you. you allowed this to happen.
> it's a word.
> it's an abbrevation.
> it's slang.
> that's life.


Posted at: June 02, 2006, 09:26:29 PM

---

it's a word, like dyke.
faggot.
queer.
the N word.
you can reclaim a word, it. is. merely. a word.
and make it your own. subvert the authority you have allowed others to imbue a word with.

I don't love the fact that i can't say 'gay' without appearing to reference homosexuality.
a gay color, I'm possibly insulting someone if i say that
that's a very queer situation

Until I use it enough how I mean it
If it's important to me

(but I'm just some crazy old >-bleeped-< what do I know?)

go to >-bleeped-<Shack in Polk Gulch SF for some >-bleeped-< pride whydoncha?




Posted at: June 02, 2006, 09:34:07 PM

---

and Sandi while I do agree with the sentiments you posted, one correction
faggot is used ALL THE TIME in the gay community where I come from.

yours
respectfully
one macho slut

Quoteand Sandi while I do agree with the sentiments you posted, one correction
faggot is used ALL THE TIME in the gay community where I come from.

yours
respectfully
one macho slut

I could just kiss you! :-*
SAME HERE Fag or Faggot is used quite frequently in my Tri-state PA, NJ, NY area we even have a gay owned\operated shop called PHAG spelled differently but still is the same word...
By the way the have awesome furniture!

Chynna

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 02, 2006, 10:31:24 AM
Too many people get away with their lies, hypocrisy, poor manners, and mistreatment of others in a multitude of ways, and eventually, it can and does lead to cultural misunderstanding and greater conflict.
...

I would totally disagree, and there are far too many instances, especially in religion, politics, and human culture and history in general where even the slightest nuance, distortion, and/or miscommunication of what could have been purer or truer language usage, and therefore truer understanding, has been the primary cause for misunderstanding, hatred, bigotry, and persecution of fellow human beings by other human beings.

and how is this going to be solved again?
legislation?
lectures?
purer language standards?


the schoolyard is correctable specifically how?

> you confounded bully with stronger.
(Believe me Anna and crew I have BEEN bullied in my life.)
Bullies = weaker.

you cannot expect people to take the time to better understand. you can only expect yourself to better understand. that will have some impact. it might annoy some people, as I am certainly doing now. it might not be satisfying to write a rant about.

words have no negative or positive intrinsic value.
I don't see a Hitler able to get enough support behind the word to round us all up and give us 'showers'.
Not enough history, not enough of a >-bleeped-< problem.

Yours
one hella strong >-bleeped-<



Posted at: June 02, 2006, 09:58:39 PM

---

Richard Pryor had a routine where he said >-bleeped-< so many times in a row that it just sounded so ridiculously funny.
[to rob the word of its intended impact.]
I have used - >-bleeped-< -in what 2  salutations and I am giggling.
rhymes with Granny, huh Uncle Jed?

old granny >-bleeped-< old >-bleeped-< granny
old granny >-bleeped-< and an ugly orphan anny...

Hi ChefAnnagirl,
I agree with you, >-bleeped-< does sound like a put down, but it is a descriptive word, and is simple & straightforward, what can you substitute for it that does not seem sort of contrived.

I guess it goes to show its not the words but the intention of the people using them. I mean look at "gay" that word was introduced to take the place of derogatory terms, yet in itself has become a sort of put-down.

Other words, "faggot" may be acceptable in some places?  but where I come from it is a most definite term of insult.  >-bleeped-<, I understand was originally a "take off" of US whites from Southern states attempting to say Negro,  came out as Nigra.  (a sort of put down of southerners I guess) Its the intention of the user that makes >-bleeped-< so offensive a term (and yet it seems that its OK for black people to use that term with each other I believe??)

I think Sheila's post sums it all up  - labels that define people.   Hey and yes I hate the term "Drag Queens" because for many years I thought that was what I may have been - it horrified me :(

I don't much care for the word either, for many of the same reasons mentioned in the OP. (And too, I'd rather not rhyme with "granny" but that could just be because of some misinformed impressions that I had to unlearn.)

But aside from my personal feelings for the word, I have seen it described elsewhere as a word that only those who are should use, and that seems to me to be a form of discrimination. It's not right IMO that some people can use a word and some can't just based on their gender identity/sexual orientation/race.  

Good point Melissa about how it is ambiguous. It reinforces a common misconception that transgenderism is one single way of living rather than a wide diversity of different kinds of people.  ::)

Ok - here goes...

Since I seem to have stirred the pot (and maybe a hornet's nest or two) up a little for some folks,
I guess I need to explain myself, my opinion, and why i have arrived at some of the conclusions already described in my initial post and next response thereafter.

First, if i have offended anyone, it is and was not my intention to do so. My apologies as always if this has occurred for anyone in this thread thus far.

Next, I need to put things into as simple a perspective as possible as pertains to my feelings about the use of specific language and the potential power it may or may not have, and this, most importantly depending on the intentions and persons or circumstances involved and context of specific circumstance(es) in question.

*** Edited 6/12 *** I believe that not only the spoken and written word, but as well, all body language and even the intention and the "thought" forms of all potentially expressible words and feelings, -  all have the same great potential power.
This * may * therefore, inherently represent a collective human responsibility in some way, to help better the human conditon, by at least making some honest attempt to more effectively utilize some of the most powerful potential opportunities for change, and growth, in all forms of communication, whether positive or negative in impacts will occur at the end of it all. I believe in this way that positively and very consciously trying to use all of our language skills in the many and varied forms it may take - whether written, spoken, body language, or psychic - no matter the race, culture or background, is important. This is my own opinion from personal experience. ****

*** I believe that language, and the use thereof, in any form, is one of our greatest gifts, potential assets, and a great potential key to our continued improvement and evolvement in how people relate to one another in general.
I deeply believe that every single spoken or written word that has ever existed each * potentially *carries a specific vibration or "frequency of meaning" as it were, and that it will have an effect of some kind once published or spoken where others can see them or hear them. Even plants and animals may seem to instinctively know and respond to this. The "vibrational" or "energetic" difference between the words "love" and "hate" for instance - there is a very specific difference between the two, and I believe that the affect it will have when using each will net completely different results, of course also largely dependant on the intention of the the sendant and the perception of the reciever, respectively... **** 

Thus, *** I believe that*** as words, actions, thoughts, inflections, movements - are all are spoken or written from one person to another, that they will create irrevocable impact *** - like sound waves, and although of course invisible to the eyes, but clearly NOT invisible to the rest of the senses - including mental, emotional, instinctive, subconscious, and even even "spiritually " as well as psychically, and so therefore still must posess the inherent power, regardless of either the intention in use, or the perception of the reciever, to affect irreversible change in any given situation. There is, and has always been, a tremendous power in the specific use of specific language, and I feel that many people have lost the conscious awareness of this truth in every single moment of our communication with others.

I feel that if more and more people continue to simply stop taking the time to truly care about the importance of what and how they communicate, on every level, and how it may affect others (this IS an ages-old problem, which still needs solving), then the cycles of ignorance, misunderstanding, intolerance, and conflict will most likely continue down a very dark path. 

Edit 6/12 ****If one is going to speak or write to another, or to many persons, without fully taking into account awareness of the potential impact of almost every single word, inflection, intonation, and feelings used, then I would have to consider this ingrained habit in the human race largely now to be simply dishonest in the most basic ways - lazy, and irresponsible, if not in *some* cases, obviously just plain intentionally cruel, crude, rude, inconsiderate, unaware, disrespectful, and negative in many ways. I believe that a *potential* lack of more deeply conscious awareness in all of our communications with both (especially) ourselves, and others, can dishonor and ***maybe*** even in some way * insults * our sacred intelligence,  our own innately and beautifully well orchestrated
"Divine intelligence " system, that we are all all connected to and interconnected with one another as it were....  

I personally feel that everyone both *innately* posesses these qualities, and thus can learn to consciously access them on a more regular basis.  I would consider this for myself to be, at very least, a sacred responsibility to myself, and therefore in some way, no matter how remote the possibility, all others as well.

This always, at least by my own conscience, which is merciless about even the thought of harm or ill towards another  - this based on how * I * was treated growing up, and am still often now, and i have turned the exact opposite. I find it agonzingly abhorrent under any circumstances...

***I think it both personally important, and in my own honestly striving for personal growth -  to grow and fearlessly, lovingly, and intelligently, as well as * politely * as possible, just simply and more effectively communicate, and always try our very best to do so, in as straightforward and unconditional manner to everyone and about everything at all times as possible... ***

***OK -  say it can't be done - it's too difficult  - too much else to have to think about or worry about, or that's just not for you - oh well, that'll be for me to find out and decide for myself.......***

*** In order to even attempt to do this more effectively, i first had to spend *MANY* LONG and painful years trying my best - even at the fear of and percieved self-risk of total exposure long before i was ready to go that far. To risk everything in my own life, in many times and many ways, and on more than one occasion, to almost everything humanly possible that i could do, just to root out, and "decondition" myself of decades of self-recycling and poisonous negativity. It took me a long time - the better part of 25 years to begin the really truly deep measure of healing of all of the damage. It then took another 10 years from that point to get this honest and real with myself and all others, finally, and once again, at risk of losing everything and everyone in my life - and frankly, no price big enough to not be true to myself and all others that i love at last...whether they hate me or want me dead or gone or whatever - no matter - i will still treat them all with intelligence, love, and respectfulness, as much as humanly possible - and i am still surrounded by the rage, ignorance, bigotry, and hatred of people whose presence in my life is unvoidable and inextricably intertwined due to family necessity - and i will not be run off any longer, either *****

*** A lot of the negativity, rage, deep sadness, and hatred, had been very very painfully deep, and was subtly ingrained into all of my patterns of self-denial, lack of any real deep down self acknowlegdement, anger, self-destructiveness, resentment and deep guardedness towards others.  Most of childhood and early adulthood, for myself and some others of us at least, consisted largely of having had the pleasure of growing up on a nearly constant diet of physical, mental, and emotional abuse, misinterpretation, denigration, and rejection by almost all others. This For nothing more than just being "different", in some way or in many ways. ****

From my own personal perspective, this has, can, and does, actually deeply damage and sometimes even almost irrevocably hurt ourselves and others, and sometimes unfortunately in ways we may not even realize often until much later when the consequences are all returning, whether they be good, or ill - ....
   
To believe that all people can - that I can - communicate with others without any of the need for real meanness, rudeness, hidden agendas, deviousness of any kind, at all times, and in all forms.

*** I think that a good example would be in the closest of lifelong positive best friends, soulmates, and/or successful business partners, that instinctively do this, and quite naurally, on the most important basic levels of comfort without ever having to really try for that baseline, but to just BE there - it just would come naturally for most of us if we would just LET IT flow like this more -   
I think that this facilitates potentially positive dialogue, in order to help more responsibly communicate better with ourselves, and each other, and i think each being equally important.
This goes hand in hand with just plain out respect for both "our selves" and therefore, all others as well...*****

In addition, every writer in human history that has impacted large numbers of other people (speech writers for political and religious figures for example), have always relied heavily on the semantics (specifically meaning "the meaning of language used") and therefore also, the specific psychological result(s) upon the many, of what was being written or spoken as part of the overall and desired potential impact, especially if some of that can be used to also affect people on a subconscious level - this ***may*** also help the writer or speaker, once again, to reach and affect other people or persons in the specifically desired manner. ***

In this way, language has been used to effectively condition and manipulate billions upon billions of people over the course of history, and often for less than positive reasons or results. Hitler was a prime speaker, and worked hard on refining his inflection, intonation, and the specific use of semantics to achieve specifically desired results within the psyche of huge numbers of people, and to then achieve any number of unquestionably dark and horrendously negative goals. As well, many other presidents, statespeople, military leaders, politicians, religious speakers, motivational speakers and writers, and others, have known and used these linguistic tools both on the consciousness and subconscious of many people, with brutal effectiveness thoughout the ages, whether for good or ill purposes.

As well, for example, just from a practical standpoint if, in my business, someone wished to potentially contract my professional cooking or teaching services of professional cooking techniques - It will always bode more effectively for me to be referred to as "Chef" or "a chef", as opposed to say, "a cook". They both have the same general meaning, yet in this context, i might sometimes even find it mildly offensive when someone says to me "oh, so you're a "cook"...
Yes, I am that, but in a professional context that is in keeping with my goals for developing a quality business and obtaining quality clientele, I must demand that the distinction in use of language be made. Some people are taken aback by this, not aware or even necessarily caring of the distinctions as it were, and thus I feel it is then appropriate for me to inform them better, and if in so doing, they may be offended, oh well - that's probably not going to be the kind of person i want to work with, anyway...

If I have quite literally put blood, sweat, and tears into my passions and developing professionalism in my culinary arts (and I have), and feel as though i have earned the right to be referred to as "Chef" instead of being referred to as a "cook", this simply then does not and will not give proper meaning or context of my training, experience, or abilities as such, to almost any listener, by current standards of definition as regards this particular profession.

I dont then have to be offended, unless someone intentionally means insult, and even then still i can consciously choose to not let it get under my skin, but then again, if someone could care less about what another person holds as an important distinction for themselves in terms of specific definition(s) within use of language, then I think this is tantamount to rudeness, ill-manneredness, lack of thoughtfulness and consideration for others and for the self, and true laziness on the part of the person in question that would rather use a blanket term(s) to refer to what they may see as all things similar within a specific framework, as opposed to have taken the time to address the person or situation appropriately in a truly thoughtful and considerate manner. 

I feel that, as people have lost the awareness of the power of language as one of most potentially sacred and meaningful assets that we posess, as well as one of the single most powerfully effective potential weapons in the human arsenal that has ever existed, it becomes more and more difficult to achieve understanding from one culture, group, or person to the next. 

**** In addition, figures of power and influence in politics, religion, media, industry, etc., have always gained the awareness that large masses can be more easily controlled and then therefore fed more lies and distortions due to abuse of language and untruth in both the written and spoken word. Even the slightest and most careless change in body or facial language in any way, intonation, inflection, and/or even use of a single word can cause violence, bloodshed, misunderstanding, and miscommunication between people. I think that it is a sacred responsibility that people should care more, and put more thoughtful consideration and conscious awareness into their use of specific language because it is still the potential primary vehicle for affecting positive change in the human world. Say less, mean more.**** 

It can be solved when more people simply admit they can do better, and take the little extra time and effort to be more discerning, more careful, more thoughtful, more considerate, more refined, and thus redefined, as well as properly educating the children - the next generations - in all of our various ways and means of communicating, ***and this must include having the courage to stand up to any of those that continue to use, abuse, and misuse the sacred trust of purer and more direct and honest communcation for anything less than positive means. ***


Most thoughtfully, lovingly, and respectfully yours,

Always,


ChefAnnagirl

Like any lable >-bleeped-< is used and abused.
but it is just a lable.


you can take pride in its meaning to yourself,
or you can grind it under your heel.

You can use it to sell your buisness,
or you can condem it in the name of god.

you can hold it close to your heart,
or you can stab someone in the back with it.



All that said
read the lable...Use with Caution.

KateAlice
fluid by nature, vapor in fact





Posted at: June 03, 2006, 12:30:23 AM

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If you do wear a lable for whatever reason make sure it is is one that you take pride in. if you cant do that then change your lable.

Hello Everyone,

I have been following this thread with some interest and have also given consideration to all those who have posted.  I was curious to see if any post might give me a new or different way to look at this issue, that might cause me to change my mind about my feelings. So far at least that has not been the case.

Having said that, I will add my two cents worth. Take it with however many grains of salt as you wish.

I beleive one of the things I hear the most in the transgendered community is that they are continually offending someone.  There is some family member, or some friend, or some person out in public that just does not approve of transgendered people.

One of the things that I personally came to terms with when I decided I was going to live my life as a female, was that I was not going to give one shred of weight to anything that anyone thinks about this, except me.  When I go out in public there are plenty of people who are "looking to be offended".

They really are, they are upset about everyone's behavior. They make continual comments and dirty looks to those that offend them.  They are offended by tattoos, they are offended by piercings, they are offended by fat people, they are offended by people don't pass thier fashion standards. They don't like certain kinds of cars or trucks, they even dislike people on the basis of the brand of the beer they drink. I think you get my point here.

Now, if am going to be offended by people that say ">-bleeped-<", then don't I also have to be offended by everyone that refuses to accept my existence?  I think I would.  And in the end, that is what they want.  They want me to be as upset about them, as they are with me.

The reason that most people think the word ">-bleeped-<" is so bad, is because the frequency with which it is used in pornography to anyone with both breasts and a penis.  It is indeed a negative association for most people.

Words are inert, they are just symbols. From the moment we wake to the moment we fall back asleep, there is a continual dialog going on in our heads. Even the most prolific journalists, communicate only a small fraction of that conversation that is going on in our heads.  Most of our experience is intangible.

What a given word means to any of us has to do with our experience of the word.  We filter all words for our experiences to draw a conclusion about what the other person means, but we have no way to know if our filtered results, were what the person was thinking when they said it.  In fact all the time we fail to understand others for this very reason.

The intention behind words have a lot to do with thier meanings. It is difficult to show an example in text format, but if any of you were where you could hear my voice, I could say something that would have an entirely different meaning, just by changing the inflection in my voice.  Like for example "I hope you're happy".  It is jokingly said to be the four words that are always a lie.

NO, not me, I refuse to give others control over me by being offended.  That is just too much power to give to others who clearly have bad intentions for me. Call me whatever you please.  It does not change who I am, and it does not change those who are bigots.  When we stop responding to it by being offended, those who say it to offend us will stop saying it.  The more one says it bothers them, the more those who are looking to be offended will use it.

That is one girls opinion.

Love always,
Elizabeth

The word '>-bleeped-<' in itself has never offended me personally, though I understand and agree with many of the points made here.

To me, it's one of those words for which context is all-important. When a girl that I know says, "I went to the club last night, and I've never seen so many trannies in one place before... it was so cool!", I have no problem with it. In this sense it's a useful abbreviation for 'transgendered people', including all the variations.

On the other hand, if I'm in a Yahoo chat room talkiing to someone about employment issuses or future plans, and some clueless creep comes in and says in huge red type, "Hi! Any hot trannies in here wanna see my cam?", it becomes offensive, lumping all of us together as sex-crazed freaks who are desperate for any man who is willing to lower himself to having anything to do with us!

Now, '>-bleeped-<' on the other hand...

Annie

"Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullsh**! It's the context that makes them good or bad." -George Carlin,  Parental Advisory Explicit Lyrics Album

http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14 (http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14)

Melissa

I must say,

There are aspects of everyone's responses that I do most certainly agree with. Some I have disagreed with. In any case, I personally have been given reason to deeply believe that specific words or specific language carry both specific "vibrational meaning" in a "spiritual" sense, and therefore the potential power to deeply affect others and specific situations. In this way, I believe that more care and consideration can and should be used by people when communicating with other people. 

We don't usually refer to a tree in English as anything other than a "tree". If someone were to "invent" a new word label "descriptor" to define this particular manifestation of spiritual/atomic energy into what we all recognize as a specific biological life form, as something else at this date and time, it would likely have little success, simply because over millenia, this definitive "label" used to describe this specific life form, has been so deeply ingrained in the human consciousness.
Ok - so the word ">-bleeped-<" hasnt been around that long, but it has become deeply ingrained in the psyche of many people. I must also honestly state a self-correction of one of my initial statements in the first posting of this thread.

I said then, that **my** gut instinct feeling was that this was a descriptor created by someone searching for a way to define something they did not understand. This was not my honest feeling, and due to my caution of offending others, i made an inaccurate statement at this time. I must apologize for this.

I honestly feel that this was a label that may have been created by someone(s) with little respect for the persons in question, and that by the very nature of it's somewhat guttural sounding, that it may have been or possibly must have been a somewhat intentionally disrespectful intention of definition, like a backanded joke or something.  **** I can't explain this assertion other than to say that often, and for myself, I have a very strong intuition about certain things sometimes. This does not mean that I am correct, especially as I have no way that i know of at this moment, of speaking with, and therefore personally verifying this with the person or persons that initially coined this phrase. ****

In any case, back to the trees and such.... I would say that many people are obviously quite intelligent and aware enough to allow specific terms, labels, and descriptions to roll off of our collective backs as it were.

However, in the world as it stands today, we are still rampant and rife with conflict, misunderstanding, hatred, bigotry, torture, persecution, and the liars, gossips, and powerhungry which place little regard or respect to the awareness of anything which resembles love, liberty, or the innately sacred nature of all living beings and true respect of any other fellow humans. 

***** I would have to say that for every one that can rise above the specific use of certain words, expressions, intentions, and types of language being used, there are probably many more that cannot and will not, in large part due to the power that as Jan and others have said, that certain words and terms have been given by people via time, repeated usage, and perception. Yes, i do agree in large part it's in the perception of the recipient of the communication, as well as the intention of the communcator, yet still, this should not alleviate people of the responsibility to take more time and considerate thoughtfulness in selecting how we will choose to communicate certain thoughts, ideas, terms, and concepts to others. ****

Taking this into account, and that large masses of people are still being persecuted, tortured, maligned, and massacred regularly around the world, and on the specific basis of the use of language and words to foster innacurate representation of religion(s), specific dogmas and beliefs, as well as economic and other political factors more often than not, and are also regularly and inaccurately represented in many media outlets (take polls for example -  "79% of all Americans support the -------- " (you fill in the blank) - No - this is bogus and insulting - to accurately use language and honestly report this type of "factual" evidence" would require them to also include how many people were surveyed, by whom, and in what specific demographic(s) chosen as representative of that particular view. Instead, we're beaten about the head and shoulders roundly with these kinds of facts and figures on a constant basis, and I believe it's 90% innacurate and criminally evil, insane, and untrue.

The people using and reporting this information via written and spoken language, are often well aware of the distortions, but will use it anyway, regardless of whether it's true or not, as long as it helps to achieve certain effects in the mass of the cultural psyche in question, and help to gain ground on whatever political, religious, or social aims and goals in all of the above, regardless of the cost in human lives and very real and tangible consequences of loss, sadness, and terrible grief amongst our fellow beings, as well as the continued cycles of distortion that are both consciously and subconciously employed and engendered for such ends.

*** In any case, this is not necessarily a socio-politcal rant (although in some ways i know that it is or will be taken by some as such), this is about language, the use thereof, and the very real effect(s) that the power that people have given language, which still today has the ability to either help in healing and creating greater understanding amongst all peoples, or to hurt, maim, distort, misrepresent, and continue to enact less than lovingly positive intentions of truthful, thoughtful, and considerate behaviors towards many others. Thus far, the application of language is still the primary medium for most all human communications and relationships to this point. ****   

If someone wants to use what would largely be considered or already classified for many others as a negative word form or connotation, in a more positive manner than what has already been ingrained in the human psyche, then this is good for them, but keep in mind, that if it has already been largely regarded by many or most as a negative descriptor, the continued use even of the specific word itself, I strongly believe, may continue to engender the less than desired perception(s) or ***behaviors***in others, thereby continuing to sanction and in some way approve it's "acceptability", even and possibly within the mass of the subconscious as a whole... ****

Time, as many people still percieve it at this moment, is the great equalizer, and as others have already pointed out in this thread, many word forms have been derived from other word forms which have, over time, had either more positive or more negative effects and/or consequences depending on intention, inflection, intonation  etc. of the person or people being described, claiming the particular description for themselves, or doing the describing. 

I believe that words, language, and thoughts to ideas can and often do carry infinite potential power, and we do all still live in a world today that is subject to change and very real and tangible consequence depending on the kinds and type of language used in an uncountable multitude of circumstances and human relationships...
If entering another country or culture, it may be critically useful to have some considerate understanding of HOW and WHY that people use word forms, terms, and specific linguistic nuances, in order to be a more effective and considerate communicator. This, simply because the lack of awareness of such could easily cost you or someone else their life, well being, comfort, or even start another war because of the slightest misstep in the use of specifc language, intention, or intonation of even a single specific word or expression.

Not everyone will, or may be as thick-skinned as some of us have already learned to be, and people should be more aware of this. To not do so, *** I personally believe***, may be spiritually, morally, and ethically irresponsible and harmful to oursleves and others in many potential ways.  *****

Lovingly and respectfully,


ChefAnnagirl

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 03, 2006, 12:01:28 PM
Not everyone will, or may be as thick-skinned as some of us have already learned to be, and people should be more aware of this. To not do so, I beleive, is spiritually, morally, and ethically irresponsible in many potential ways. 

Lovingly and respectfully,

ChefAnnagirl

Here's the thing, and the ONLY reason I dared step up to the plate on this one.
If you are going to transition, you need to get that thick-skinned-did thang happening.
Mark my words.

I knew that I would be perceived as somewhat insensitive on this, but I honestly believe my message, GET THE THICK SKIN has substantially greater ethical value than I am worried about with the other, far far more subtle idea.


Posted at: June 03, 2006, 10:10:39 AM

---

I got to worry about changing the world too while I transition?
too problematic.

Hmmm, HRT has been making my skin thinner (both literally and emotionally) :-\ .  However, that doesn't mean I let things get to me.  Of course I learned bartending and you need to be really thick-skinned to do that.

Melissa

This comment is in reference to Sheila's posting:

QuoteIf we are getting to what pet peeve we have, mine is Drag Queens and Kings. I so don't like them up on stage as the general public thinks that is what a trans person is all about.

Please know in no way am I trying to attack you or argue with you or even say that your wrong. I am just merely trying to express a different way of looking at "Drag Queens" "Kings"
In a way I see and agree that none of "us" CD's,TS's, Gays etc. Should give in and act in a stereotypical fashion thereby confirm what "normal" society (LMAO) views us to be.
However, and I speak from experience having been on stage before and currently (unofficially) manging my best friends "drag career"
Must say that when "WE" (her & I) get on stage to perform it is because we have a love of entertaining people. Most of our shows are in Gay niteclubs with an audience being predominatly if not entirely gay so explain to me how we are reinforcing what the general public perceves Trans people to be if the audience is compilied of Trans & gay people in itself?
Where I reside it is extremely difficultif not damn near impossible for a Trans individual to find employment. So a lot of "the girls" And "guys" :) (my best friends husband is a FtM Drag King) use the stage as a means of income and employment. Because for a lot of "us" and I only speak from what I see in my area it boils down to a simply reality question
" I can't find a job as a transgender person so I am left with 2 options "the stage" or Prostitution."
THAT is reality to a lot of us.
So to take away from the great importance of having "Drag queens & Kings" has a respectful alternative to the other options is to limit a group of individuals right to succeed effectly placing them\us back in "The Box" society seems to want to place all of us in.

But again you have everyright to that opinion I just want to share with you that there are always 2 sides to evry coin...even if its double headed!!

I apologize if I have offend anyone in advance
"But hey, I got to be ME!"

Impartial to Judgement
Chynna    

Let me share a thing about my adopted home town and a real funny spot, at the junction of the Tenderloin and Polk Gulch.
>-bleeped-<Shack.
The audience is composed of: gays. Drag queens. Drag queen wannabes. Slightly queer straight-acting guys. Kinky but otherwise normal ggs. Transsexuals. Transgenderists. Tourists. In fact U-Name-It.
under the banner >-bleeped-<shack.
think about it.
is that too subtle?

Quote from: Chynna on June 03, 2006, 01:08:36 PM
Must say that when "WE" (her & I) get on stage to perform it is because we have a love of entertaining people. Most of our shows are in Gay niteclubs with an audience being predominatly if not entirely gay so explain to me how we are reinforcing what the general public perceves Trans people to be if the audience is compilied of Trans & gay people in itself?

I  have had a gay man recently come on to me  and attempt to have sex with me because he assumed a transsexual was the same thing as a drag queen.  It was actually quite traumatizing because he saw me as male.  So if gay people have these misconceptions, what makes you think that they don't interact with straight people and reinforce this misconception?

Melissa

QuoteSo if gay people have these misconceptions, what makes you think that they don't interact with straight people and reinforce this misconception?

True statement, but within your own story this individual "assumed" because he didn't know there was a such thing as a TS. In life there will always be Misconceptions we are all guilty of that.
But ask youself this if these gay people interact with straight people then the chance of the straight people having a misconception are drastically dropped. For I know no "straight" person who interacts with gays, TS or etc that have this narrow minded misconception. For you to interact with most Gays, TS, etc. is to learn by experience that we all don't act the same way....

Does every gay person like Cher?
Is every gay person articulant & can dress and decorate?
Does every MtF transsexual think they are or want to be a female?
Are all MtF TS attracted to men?
Because you found a gay man hitting on you as traumatizing does that make you homophobic?

our whole life style is filled with misconceptions you cant stop that fact no matter how hard you try.

misconceived at birth
Chynna

people will have their misconceptions reinforced according to how they wish to have their misconconceptions reinforced. They will take that where they can get it, like that 'gay man' with hot pants for u.

and sometimes a 'drag queen' is a transsexual with a job in the entertainment industry, as Chynna pointed out.

reality is, all kind of people will perceive a DIFFERENCE as exotic. Exciting. Get a little woody behind it. Act on that.
dealing with it is one of life's tests.

I was dealing with what you just cited, Melissa all through my teen years. Ya get used to it. You develop coping skills, like a sense of humor about it. You gotta believe life is pretty hilarious, you gotta look at it like that. Otherwise the torture never stops.

Quote from: Chynna on June 03, 2006, 01:08:36 PMMost of our shows are in Gay niteclubs with an audience being predominatly if not entirely gay so explain to me how we are reinforcing what the general public perceves Trans people to be if the audience is compilied of Trans & gay people in itself?

Well, I think the general public gets a fair amount of exposure to drag performers, through movies & television as well as direct exposure. The point, though, is that it's just wrong to put someone down for being who they are; you would think that we of all people would be more tolerant.

While I may dislike the fact the the public's perception of us is highly colored by their awareness of drag kings & queens, I see the fault as lying with both a public that is too lazy to actually find out something about a subject before forming an opinion (and too comfortable with perceptions that match their prejudices), as well as a TS community that puts more emphasis on passing and going stealth than it does on informing the public and fighting for recognition as human beings.

What is needed is not to stop people from seeing drag performers, but to make them more aware of how and why we are different. This is one of the reasons I was so happy with the success of Transamerica; it provided a different view of transgendered people, both to the people who saw it, and to everyone who saw Felicity Huffman's Golden Globes acceptance speech.

Annie

Quote from: jan c on June 03, 2006, 02:01:31 PM
You gotta believe life is pretty hilarious, you gotta look at it like that. Otherwise the torture never stops.

Thanks, Jan, I needed that!  I have been tending to take things way too seriously lately.

helen

Quote from: Chynna on June 03, 2006, 01:54:27 PM
True statement, but within your own story this individual "assumed" because he didn't know there was a such thing as a TS. In life there will always be Misconceptions we are all guilty of that.

Not true.  I told him I was TS and what it was about.  It didn't matter.  He was convinced that I was just a gay in denial.  The point is that he didn't understand what a TS is.

Melissa

So what you're saying is "he was just an A__hole"
OK correction im saying that ;)

Nice to know A__holes just dont come in heterosexual men but are everywhere! :D ;)

The saga continues
Chynna

Quote from: Melissa on June 03, 2006, 04:27:51 PM
  He was convinced that I was just a gay in denial.  The point is that he didn't understand what a TS is.

Melissa

Maybe he is a fan of Michael Bailey's The Man Who Would be Queen.  ;)

Thick skin or not, one thing that has helped me is the thought that whatever people think or have to say about me is none of my business.  That said, the only abusive language I had to endure personally came from my ex when she tried to kill me.

I run a news list for older TGs, mostly MTF and FTMs  TS over the age of 50.  All in all, a fairly mellow, mature crowd.  A good number live in the Pacific Northwest, and we have had 6 what I term 'Traditional >-bleeped-< Thanksgiving' celebrations at our house with upwards of 25 pre and postop TS at our house.  No hidden message in the >-bleeped-< moniker; it has a certain rythym to it, and it just stuck.  We were on the East Coast last year, and our friends missed our party.  Hopefully, we can hold the 7th TTT this year before we head off on our vacation of a lifetime.

Robyn

Quote from: Chynna on June 03, 2006, 05:17:51 PM
So what you're saying is "he was just an A__hole"
OK correction im saying that ;)

Nice to know A__holes just dont come in heterosexual men but are everywhere! :D ;)

The saga continues
Chynna

In a nutshell, yes.

Melissa

LMAO

Much luv Melissa! :D

We've secretly replaced your wife with
Chynna
Lets watch and see what happens!

Quote from: Melissa on June 03, 2006, 11:24:34 AM
"Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullsh**! It's the context that makes them good or bad." -George Carlin,  Parental Advisory Explicit Lyrics Album

http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14 (http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14)

Melissa

Ever been accused of something you weren't guilty of ?  If so, was your life or another's literally hanging in the balance as a result ? The accusation was comprised of words, innocent or not, and these words carried specific and dire consequences, and all the worse if the words were misinterpreted, misused, mispercieved by others, inaccurate, distorted, or just plain lies. Try that feeling on for size, and then tell me "it's only words"... Ever personally known someone that's been killed, jailed, or tortured as a political prisoner of conscience for simply and openly speaking about love, liberty, and the inalienable rights of freewill and honest expression amongst all fellow beings ? These were "just words" too, and millions of people around the world are still losing their lives, homes, families, and all creature comforts which so many take for granted, all because of the millenia of cumulative effects of the use, misuse, and unfair, untrue, and distorted concepts of religious, socioeconomic, and political doctrine and dogma which, by the specific use of words and the perception thereof, has undoubtedly contributed over the ages. The continued lack of clear communication between people of all cultures, races, religions, and demograhpics. All because of "just words".

I find it interesting that regardless of having a stronger constitution, thicker skin if you will, many that have responded to this post seem to have pointedly avoided acknowledging the simple fact that deeper awareness, conscious care, loving thoughtfulness, good manners, and just plain consideration in the use of specific words and language could be more helpful to all of us, in a world still riddled with prejudice, persecution, distortion, misrepresentation, and murder of the innocent. After all, wouldnt it make sense to do these things sometimes, considering that the specific use of words and language both is at the very heart of the matter where both perception and therefore ultimately, most of human conflict and misunderstanding is and has been rooted since the beginning of documented history ?

If one is not willing to be part of the solutions to problems within society and culture, which by the way, once again has most often been rooted in perception and the closely interlinked relation of the specific use of words and language, as the primary key to this equation, then you may be part of the apathetic or unwilling, and therefore part of the problems instead of the solutions. Since some have seen fit to take both my meanings and the specific language i have used, entirely out of context in order to make their points, i felt that this must be said.

Please forgive me for any offense, but i personally believe that a lot of folks really need to wake up a little bit more on this one, and that in so doing, it can and will help all that are still struggling to just be our truest selves without fear of death, torture, persecution, misinterpretation, bigotry, prejudice, shame, or total misperception. 

If what has been said in response is true, then all language and the use of specific words to communicate specific thoughts, concepts, and ideas would become meaningless as well. I think this would be untrue. The legal systems of the world would no longer function at all, legal contracts would become meaningless, compassionate and passionate exression of specific feelings in words or writing which could either effect highly positive or deeply negative change, would lose all value and meaning....

In some of the response/assertions that have been made, this would also entirely invalidate many people's very real and very personal individual experiences via exposure to events that have deeply hurt and traumatized countless multitudes of people, such as has occurred in racism for example, or the childhood trauma many have suffered quite tangibly as a result of verbal and mental abuse from others....The examples are countless, and the heart of the matter is in the meaning and the specific use of words and language. If you can say that the word "love" has no meaning other than what people have assigned to it over countless ages, then why create and use such a word to begin with ? If the word "bullsh---" has no meaning in this same manner, why use it ? Sure, it may be replaced with a similar word or expression, but the word itself still carries a specific vibration of meaning since it's original inception, and will likely create it's equal and similar response in the perception of others when used.

Most sincerely and respectfully,


ChefAnnagirl

Quote from: Melissa on June 03, 2006, 11:24:34 AM
"Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullsh**! It's the context that makes them good or bad." -George Carlin,  Parental Advisory Explicit Lyrics Album

http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14 (http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14)

Melissa

Hi CAG,

If somebody says "I need to take my car in to get the >-bleeped-< rebuilt", do you get offended?  I don't.  If somebody says to you "Are you one of those >-bleeped-<s?" would you get offended?  Most likely yes.  It's the same word, but used in different contexts.  One being offensive and the other one not.  The word itself is nothing by itself, it's how it is used.

Additionally, it also depends on who uses the word.  If it's an obvious bigot, then you would get offended, but if it's another transsexual using it jokingly, you probably wouldn't.  I personally am offended when a non-transsexual uses the word when referring to a transvestite, transsexual or transgendered individual.  However, if used in most other contexts, I would not be offended.  For instance, I am not offended by the fact that you titled this post ">-bleeped-<".

By the way, what happened?  Did somebody call or refer to you as a >-bleeped-<?

Melissa

Hi Melissa,

No, no such thing has happened. I just decided to talk about a particular word, that to me, for some unexplainable reason, hits me in the guts as carrying a negative "vibrational meaning" feeling, or connotation. I don't personally like the word, in fact, for this "gut instinct" reason, i dislike it very much in almost any context that refers to someone like myself.

You have made an outstanding and completely valid point in both use of context and in the source and nature of the communication/communicator/recipient equation, and i compliment you in this.

This, however, was not entirely and only my point in many ways. i have modified and expanded on the last posting to clarify even further.

Thanks,

Lovingly always,


ChefAnnagirl   

I see this as a tempest in a teapot.

It's just a word...sticks and stones may be a childhood phrase but still relevant here.  As it happens, I'm a woman and don't consider the term relevant to who I am.  I dislike political correctness because it goes against the grain of free speech that I feel trumps the feelings of any one person or group of people.  Should we dub "fatty" as a similar word since surely some fat people are offended?  I hope not.  One rare exception is probably ">-bleeped-<" since it is tied uniquely to slavery and the subjugation of an entire race.  If we make ">-bleeped-<" part of a subset of words deemed offensive, suddenly the list is huge and worthless. 

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on June 04, 2006, 08:25:53 AMOne rare exception is probably ">-bleeped-<" since it is tied uniquely to slavery and the subjugation of an entire race.  If we make ">-bleeped-<" part of a subset of words deemed offensive, suddenly the list is huge and worthless.

Another point worth making is that while ">-bleeped-<" may have once been used by some out of ignorance, it soon became almost exclusively a term of intentional derision. I don't think that most people who use the word ">-bleeped-<" are intending it to be a slur; if we make it into one, we provide the bigots with an epithet to use against us.

It's almost the reverse of what has happened to the word "queer". By embracing the term, the gay community has taken it away from those who would use it to hurt people. When I was young, "queer" was one of the most hateful things you could call someone; today, it's used in the title of a television show!

Annie

got to delve in here

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 04, 2006, 01:43:09 AM

I find it interesting that regardless of having a stronger constitution, thicker skin if you will, many that have responded to this post seem to have pointedly avoided acknowledging the simple fact that deeper awareness, conscious care, loving thoughtfulness, good manners, and just plain consideration in the use of specific words and language could be more helpful to all of us, in a world still riddled with prejudice, persecution, distortion, misrepresentation, and murder of the innocent. After all, wouldnt it make sense to do these things sometimes, considering that the specific use of words and language both is at the very heart of the matter where both perception and therefore ultimately, most of human conflict and misunderstanding is and has been rooted since the beginning of documented history ?

I have implied herein that all of that, 100%, IS A GIVEN, and that I personally do not require a lecture on it from the ivory tower.

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 04, 2006, 01:43:09 AM

If one is not willing to be part of the solutions to problems within society and culture, which by the way, once again has most often been rooted in perception and the closely interlinked relation of the specific use of words and language, as the primary key to this equation, then you may be part of the apathetic or unwilling, and therefore part of the problems instead of the solutions. Since some have seen fit to take both my meanings and the specific language i have used, entirely out of context in order to make their points, i felt that this must be said.

cite examples of how this was done here.

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 04, 2006, 01:43:09 AM
In some of the response/assertions that have been made, this would also entirely invalidate many people's very real and very personal individual experiences via exposure to events that have deeply hurt and traumatized countless multitudes of people, such as has occurred in racism for example, or the childhood trauma many have suffered quite tangibly as a result of verbal and mental abuse from others...

Take a walk in my shoes, thru my history and tell me about that one.
(If one's feelings are so easily invalidated, they would appear to be somewhat suspect in the first place. The subject as I understand it was the outrage that is the word '>-bleeped-<'. Get real.)
Now if YOU are the one that has been so exposed, you have my sincerest apologies re: the stance I have assumed.
It all honestly sounds like bleeding heart stuff to me. The very level of expression you are deploying screams of the ivory tower and privilege.
"A >-bleeped-< has to be somewhat tough", I stand by this assertion.




Posted at: June 08, 2006, 02:33:47 PM

---

and it may have a vibrational meaning that is negative
sounds banjo-like to me
thin and metallic
has to be fit into the orchestration with the same care as any other sound

but you aren't talking about the sound or the rhythm
you have attached an emotional weight to the word as meaning
that was your choice to do or not do
until someone starts seriously talking about doing something about the >-bleeped-< problem
(there was a 'Negro problem', Germany had a 'Jewish problem';
that's some real stuff)
tempest in a teaspoon is what you got here.

Quote from: Annie Social on June 04, 2006, 12:23:55 PM
Another point worth making is that while ">-bleeped-<" may have once been used by some out of ignorance, it soon became almost exclusively a term of intentional derision. I don't think that most people who use the word ">-bleeped-<" are intending it to be a slur; if we make it into one, we provide the bigots with an epithet to use against us.

Excellent point For only the Recipient of the word can truly make the word offensively and give the word a negative meaning.
and as DawnL so elegantly put it if you band one word from it's usage you leave the door open to ban the use of others words that offend one or a group of individuals...then we open the door to limiting are own rights as a community by restricting the rights of freedom of speech for others we are essentially restricting our own rights of expression as Transsexauls and individuals

Quotebut i personally believe that a lot of folks really need to wake up a little bit more on this one, and that in so doing, it can and will help all that are still struggling to just be our truest selves without fear of death, torture, persecution, misinterpretation, bigotry, prejudice, shame, or total misperception. 

I do again understand to some this word is offernsive. but you are the only one who has the power to not make it offensive.
One can even argue by someone restricting the words another person uses
You are trying in effect to persecute them ........in effect "siliencing them"
Misinterpretation is usually done by the interpretor or reciever..not the speaker.

QuoteEver been accused of something you weren't guilty of ?  If so, was your life or another's literally hanging in the balance as a result ? The accusation was comprised of words, innocent or not, and these words carried specific and dire consequences, and all the worse if the words were misinterpreted, misused, mispercieved by others, inaccurate, distorted, or just plain lies. Try that feeling on for size, and then tell me "it's only words"...

If I (or anyone) use the word ">-bleeped-<" to you to describe anyone then by your own logic they are being offensive? Or are you just doing to that person what you posted above? Your accusation was totallly based on the   misinterpretation\misperception of the word ">-bleeped-<" I used and you are in fact accusing me of something I am not as a transexual herself guilty of?
In effect doing to me what you claim people who use the word ">-bleeped-<" do to you.
try that feeling on for size yourself. before we begin limiting my freedom of speech.

Im not trying to attack you or say that you are wrong. You have EVERY RIGHT to find that word offensive but I am trying to make you see the point from a different angle.


In a class all by myself called ">-bleeped-<"
Chynna

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 03, 2006, 02:48:29 AM
I dont then have to be offended, unless someone intentionally means insult, and even then still i can consciously choose to not let it get under my skin, but then again, if someone could care less about what another person holds as an important distinction for themselves in terms of specific definition(s) within use of language, then I think this is tantamount to rudeness, ill-manneredness, lack of thoughtfulness and consideration for others and for the self, and true laziness on the part of the person in question that would rather use a blanket term(s) to refer to what they may see as all things similar within a specific framework, as opposed to have taken the time to address the person or situation appropriately in a truly thoughtful and considerate manner. 

I feel that, as people have lost the awareness of the power of language as one of most potentially sacred and meaningful assets that we posess, as well as the single most powerfully effective potential weapon in the human arsenal that has ever existed, it becomes more and more difficult to achieve understanding from one culture, group, or person to the next. 

et cetera et cetera et cetera ad absurdum

Noto Bene: I care enough about the use of language to try and nail something more on the head than this. This thing goes on for seemingly days, in the form of an academic lecture. This kind of thing absolutely DILUTES the power of language if that's what you are endeavoring to do here.
You have tried to make the case that a word can be intrinsically bad. (As an artist I believe that to be an absurdity. There are no ugly sounds, words, pictures intrinsically. It is about context. Life is a tapestry. It is interwoven; you try and pick this and/or that element apart, you have a mess, like you have here. If one goes around trying to find things to be ugly, one tends to find things ugly.)
I believe that you have failed to do this, even as you might have imagined, in the context of this forum, that you were preaching to the choir.

Hello everyone,

I hate to beat a dead horse here, and hope to not just repeat what has already been said.

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl

I find it interesting that regardless of having a stronger constitution, thicker skin if you will, many that have responded to this post seem to have pointedly avoided acknowledging the simple fact that deeper awareness, conscious care, loving thoughtfulness, good manners, and just plain consideration in the use of specific words and language could be more helpful to all of us, in a world still riddled with prejudice, persecution, distortion, misrepresentation, and murder of the innocent. After all, wouldnt it make sense to do these things sometimes, considering that the specific use of words and language both is at the very heart of the matter where both perception and therefore ultimately, most of human conflict and misunderstanding is and has been rooted since the beginning of documented history ?

It is not that I have failed to acknowledge it, it is that I have failed to agree with it.  I just can not agree that words have a difinitive meaning that is universal and that we all understand these symbols to have the same meaning.  Indeed it is rare that any two people ever understand words to mean the same thing.

We intuitively seem to understand certain words and phrases and beleive that others do also, because we do in fact communicate with others.

"I love you"

"I LOVE YOU"

"I love YOU"

"I LOVE you"

"I LOVE YOU!!!!!!"

"I love you?"

What do I mean? Who do I mean? How do I mean it?

Words are only symbols, it is thier context that give them meaning, but not only their context, but what each person thinks the word means or what it means to them.  I grew up in a home where my parents never once ever said they loved me.  Us kids never said we loved each other.  We always bought insulting/humorous types of birthday cards, not moving/inspirational/emotional. My parents where physically and psychologically abusive.  Now, how can the word love mean the same thing to me as a person that grew up in a loving caring home where they were told and felt loved and valued?

It is precisely because the words can not have the same meaning to each of us, that I both offer and accept words only through my own filters. In the end, I choose what I will allow to hurt me. So if I am to allow one word to hurt me, then don't I have to allow all of them?  You see? If I allow one word to hurt me by choice it doesn't matter what word I choose. I can choose any word because what I have really done is allow myself to be hurt.  That was the real decision.

Since I don't allow this, others can say whatever they please. I have already chosen not to be hurt by it.  They are just words and if they are not? perhaps you could explain what I meant when I said "I love you", because I do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hello all,

I havent responded lately, to some of what i percieve as the more personally invalidating and personal attacks that have occurred as a result of my posting my thoughts, feelings, and experiences from MY OWN PERSONAL experience and beliefs based on that experience. My words have now several times been misused and distorted both, and i have had my integrity, and the very validity of my own personal thoughts, feelings, and personal opinions questioned and harshly attacked. A few of you have now even gone quite far into putting words into my mouth and in my mind that i did not even use. Some have even accused me of accusing YOU of things, and i have not done this, either.

I have now gone back, and edited and "cleaned up" some of my language, content, and context as regards the specific use of "ownership" context for my personal feelings and experiences, so that i won't be percieved as trying to speak for others in all of my prior postings in this thread. I pretty much had done that anyway in most of my dialogue, but it was also apparently ignored. It was apparently also ignored that i had the decency and objectivity to CLEARLY state in my intial postings that I had no way to substantiate my thoughts, feelings, and concepts on the word and it's origin, other than my own personal experience and gut instinct feelings. I have not yet had the time to respond to each new posting, especially the ones more personally directed at me in what seems at best, a very clearly and very intentionally denigrating tone.

I will post additional, respectful, and specific responses within the next day or so as i am able to process through all of this.

In terms of some of the anger that i detect from others, as was written in shakespeare once: " Thou dost protesteth too much"

I would ask that people please take the time to very *** carefully *** re-read and process ALL that i had intially posted here. Edited passages are all denoted by **** asterisks.

I had initially even considered posting this topic in the "PMS" zone section, as it really only was a personal bitch i wanted to vent and share my opinion(s) on. 

Most sincerely and respectfully,

Love always,
ChefAnnagirl 

ChefAnnagirl
I read your post and would personally like to apologize if you felt I was attacking you or If I distorted or took out of context anything you might have typed. or in advertantly

THAT WAS NOT AT ALL MY INTENT

I was just trying to express\share my thoughts and concerns on the manner with you and tell you how I view\approach that type of scenerio. I realize that word for you is a sensative point hell as I stated before the word "faggot" pisses me off to no evail. So I do sympathize and relate exactly to your thoughts. It's just I have a different way of looking at it after I calm down and realize im getting upset over a word. And giving the person using the word power over me to change my mind state.

I realize when I type\post\speak etc. I sometimes come off abrassive and\or just plan rude or bytchey and I apologize in advance for that.

So please forgive me if I have offend you in anyway...

Sincerly & from the heart
Chynna

ChefAnnagirl,

I beleive I understood from the very beginning that this whole thing is nothing more than a "peeve" for you.  I do disagree with your views on this, but also made a strong effort to do so in a respectful way.  After all, they are just opinions.

I did not mean to diminish the pain and upset you feel about certain words, in this case ">-bleeped-<" or to imply that it's not a real thing.  I am trying to be a realist.  "We can not change what others think, say or do and it is wasted effort to try". There will never be a time when people don't say offensive things.

The question is, how do they know what is going to be offensive?  Simple, we tell them.  I am promoting giving up on this entire system.  I can not change what others think, say or do, but I can change how much validity that I give it. I can change how I respond to it.

I beleive any solutions to society's ills will not come in the form of attempting to change how others behave. If we change how we respond, thier behavior will automatically change.  Ever try to tickle someone that is not ticklish?  It gets boring very fast.

We have learned from inter-racial marriage, inter-religious marriage, segregation, and gay people that change will only happen when we go out in public and do not respond to our detractors. Like the person who does not laugh when tickled, our detractors will get bored when we fail to respond to things like "Where you going >-bleeped-<?".

I would like to close by saying that I thought you were provoking others opinions on this matter.  I have made every effort to be concise in what I say and respectful. If I have failed to do so, I offer my most sincere apology.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi ChefAnna

I liked what you posted, and the discussion it started was interesting and informative.  Remember what Elanor Roosveldt said;  there will always be people who agree and disagree - so if you believe that something is worth saying, just say it :)  I hope you continue posting stuff as interesting.

Love
Rana

Anna
What anger?
Per the Methinks the Lady does protest too much
this was precisely my point regarding this pontification on purity of thought. [And the whole >-bleeped-< 'has a negative vibrational aspect' deal , I really got to thank you for, that's a hell of a phrase. Used it in bad poetry recently.]
I took exception to (besides the silliness of the thread) this: you - without the commitment to refer to my, or the one or two others who more or less strongly disagreed with your post, name(s) - asserted these things,, in my case virtually without a doubt: Intellectual laziness. Moral indifference. Inattention to the use of language as applies to these two sins. And belabored the hell out of it while you were doing so. It's also a form of passive/aggressive isn't it?
My posts, IF YOU READ THEM, are actually kinda funny, I thought. I got a sense of humor about >-bleeped-<, anyway.
You'd do well to get one too.

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on June 13, 2006, 11:55:07 AM

I would ask that people please take the time to very *** carefully *** re-read and process ALL that i had intially posted here. Edited passages are all denoted by **** asterisks.

I got the drift, of what you spent literally pages on, real quick. My posts were short and sweet. I don't think you have given THEM any thought. There is no WAY I could take the kind of time to read it, it's extremely dry/isn't entertaining. That you believe you can lecture me, on language, on the ethical use of it, its moral implications etc., is one thing that is really grating and why I bothered replying. Nothing personal on my part; I am not 100% convinced of the converse here.
peace out
jan c.

Another interesting topic, again discussing our "Feelings" on words this time.  Personally I don't like the word ">-bleeped-<" if it was used by someone to describe me, as I'm not a transvestite, and with all due respect to the transvestites of the world I find it offensive.  There are other words far worse than this word and I admit that I along with many others have used derogatory words to describe people and things I/we find distasteful.

Obviously the power of the person using the words adds to their effectiveness, if I were to say that I though that this group of people were nothing but a bunch of attention getting >-bleeped-<s and the POTUS said the same thing well, the reaction would be much different.

Words are words, they are a part of who and what we are, they cannot be denied nor should they be.

Steph

jan
I am sorry to say this but any humour in your posts is swamped by your aggressive and confrontional approach.  You can get your message across with courtesy and style you know.  If you are as good a wordsmith as you consider you are, it should be easy for you.

I prefer your posts in "each day with a song in my heart" to the aspect of yourself you display here

Rana

Hi Chef
(would you take offense to me calling you, say, 'Cookie'? Per se. Or would this depend, if this were a personal interaction, on the tonality and rhythm of it?)
">-bleeped-< may have a negative vibrational meaning. To me it sounds like a banjo, thin and metallic. Like any sound, care must taken as to its orchestration"
You have chosen to take this kind of thing as something, possibly, offensive. That is a choice a person makes. You have indicated that 'some' have 'pointedly' ignored the ideas that you presented on language and the care and feeding of it;
If you look at the above quote, from one of my posts in reply, and give it half the care you insist upon per your own words, you'll see what I mean about nailing something on the head. To have read that and make assertions about 'laziness in the use of language' would appear to be arrogant, if I wanted to see it that way. What I see is that you staked out your position and then, getting some negative feedback, steeled yourself to defend it to the death. And you died.

NB: I have better things to do than randomly attack such a post as ">-bleeped-<?". I took the care and the time to consider it, and critiqued it. (Rather succinctly in at least the one case, I think.)

Elizabeth stated that 'words are merely symbols', and that is only half right. They are also sounds. No word has a meaning by itself. It has a sound, a color,  IE: it vibrates, but its meaning is in a sentence. A note has a color. Without time, the 4th dimension, it has only the color and the specific gravity of its frequency. It has no musical meaning as an isolated thing.
Do you get my meaning or have I wasted some more time here?

peace love and understanding
j



Posted at: June 14, 2006, 11:36:53 AM

---

Rana.
I am not a smithy of words. I directly communicate as best I can, and words are NOT my forte. I took the care to craft my thoughts as well as I might, all things considered.
Too much 'courtesy' and 'style' is a hallmark of a certain level of discourse I do not subscribe to. (I am not of that class, and have no pretensions to it.)  It smacks of dishonesty, if you really want to hear me, and otherwise why bother to tell me your objections?

Before this post, the word '>-bleeped-<' used to mildly offend me.  Now I really don't give a rip about it.  I am a woman and that how everyone sees me.  If they use the word, it is out of their own ignorance.

In fact, when I came out to my friend who was my best friend at the time (male I've known for about 15 years), he first used that term and I just educated him on the terms and he's never used it since.  In fact, just last night he started calling me Melissa. :)  And he hasn't even seen me not presenting as male yet.

Melissa

Jan
You communicate pretty well, straight and to the point, so I believe you are a wordsmith.  Think of the writings of Hemmingway, straightforward clear Anglo Saxon English.  Yes, I agree with you clarity and brevity are to be sought.  I can remember reading in the past Alexandra mentioned the dreaded "scroll" effect - and its true that long posts do tend to turn people off.

But, there are such things as constructive and destructive criticism.  People like you and I, we just can't seem to keep our mouths shut - are always posting.  In truth I coulden't give a stuff (usually) about what you may say of me - and I bet the converse applies.  Other people may not be like that - and its a big thing to have considered something, take the time to post it, and then find other people jumping down their throat about not only the substance but also the style.

You say courtesy and style are the hallmarks of a certain level of discourse, and to I detect a note that you hold such a level in contempt?  You know the phrase "Common Courtesy"?  It applies to all levels of discourse (except maybe monkeys in a jungle, gibbering & screaming & flinging their poo at each other).

Jan, I expect better of you, I know you are capable of it.

Rana

Expect nothing of a person and your never disappointed in them.

Now I myself have no concept of courtesy, style, or dicourse
(Actually I don't even know what that means Ill look it up later thou)
But I do know myself I can be abrassive and just a plain  :icon_censored: at times.

Abrassive but to the point, JAN 
Courteous & Elegant, RANA

Are both dear friends of mines who I wouldn't change a thing about either one of them.
For the exception of thier birth sex if I had the power and they asked me to! ;) :)

CHYnnA

Quote from: Rana on June 15, 2006, 06:09:32 AM
Other people may not be like that - and its a big thing to have considered something, take the time to post it, and then find other people jumping down their throat about not only the substance but also the style.

Rana

interesting point: in that this precisely occurred to me, I took the time to critique quite thoughtfully, the time to type it and edit it and put it in prose poem format;
then saw that work taken out of context and the substance and the style of it were - oh so POLITELY and with "courtesy", which rang entirely false to my ear (which is a very good ear) - attacked, without so much actual courtesy as directing it TO me, and then I responded more assertively and with somewhat less of a deliberately humorous stance.  I saw bs, I called bs. Like now.

Read the thing and get back to me on it. Debate the actual points I have raised. You are simply telling me I am not so sweet.

More taking out of context to make a point which to me isn't even germane: I said TOO MUCH style and courtesy are hallmarks of a certain level of discourse which again, rings very falsely to my ear; here's precisely an exemplo gratio: the condescending reference to monkeys flinging sh*t.
very "courteously" phrased but insulting and passive/aggressive.

Ok, I think the point is proven.  Look how much the simple word has stirred up this conversation.  I think we should get back to what we were doing.

Melissa

This thread is locked. Jan_C is taking a 7 day posting break. I expect civility, I expect courtesy, I expect people not to take things personally, and I absolutely will not tolerate people becoming combative on these forums. You can attempt to disguise personal attacks through the creative use of language, but people will still see it.