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Um, can someone explain what magick really is? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it as I have nothing to compare it to. I believe in magick, but my brain also has logic, and the two need to come to terms before I can progress further in my training.

From what I understand of it, all it does is manipulate probability in the universe. When you try and affect change. If it is used for divination it is used as a key to open the door. Either way the end result is that wiccan magick is energy manipulation, sort of like ki.

Is this even close?

I'm a magician.  I'm not Wiccan, but in my experience with witches and other "unusual" people I have met, all magick can be summed up by a simple definition.  Magick is the process of using "non-standard" means to achieve an end.  By non-standard, I am of course referring to methods which are either mostly unknown, or believed by most to not work.

I met a witch once who told me about how he used crystals for cleansing rooms of evil presence.  I never saw him practice, but it was clear that he "knew" things that other people did not, at a level that went beyond mere self confidence or knowledge of psychology.

Wicca uses magick based on the old religion and traditions.  I don't use it because I prefer less elaborate forms of spellwork.

Except for the fact that the 'old religion' was invented by hippies.
I think there is a way that these practices condition people to keep their eyes open.

Magick, according to my understanding, is the use of will, visualization and focus to help you to achieve a certain goal by alternative means.
Dion Fortune said that 'Magick is the art of changing consciousness at will.'

Will is Intention and Determination.
With Intention comes Imagination to be able to visualize the end result you desire. and then you obviously need to keep concentrating on that visualization.

But magick alone is not enough to get the what you want. you need to go out and do it too.
i mean, you can't lie in bed and wish for a man and hope you get him, now can you? (-^.^-)

hope that helped.

Actually, Pica, most hippies hadn't become adolescents when 'Wicca: the old religion' was invented by Gerald Gardner. Spell-work seems to have been resurrected modernly by The Order of the Golden Dawn, pre-Aleister Crowley and brought to a degree of wierdness by him that those early GDs would never have reached for.

I'd say one's best bet for a truly ancient witch-rite is Italian Aradia, although that may well have been a creation of Charles Leland.

When Mother speaks one needs to listen: like to bird-song, the diversity and great complexity of human beings, the vastness of Universe and the low murmurs of the heart. Atunement leads to understanding.

N~

Please pull the other one ......

I've never figured the attraction between TS and this "cra*p" mysticism ....

Just love someone to explain ...  ::) ...

Laura

Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 07:22:34 PM
Please pull the other one ......

I've never figured the attraction between TS and this "cra*p" mysticism ....

Just love someone to explain ...  ::) ...

Laura

Explain what, Laura? Your scepticism and sense that you have the answers already? You do, for yourself. Why try to explain the unexplainable to the inexplicable?

Perhaps the last clause of your signature explains it, or should, for you.

N~

Quote from: Tyler on May 01, 2008, 05:45:27 PM

But magick alone is not enough to get the what you want. you need to go out and do it too.

This is one of the biggest mistakes of new practicioners.  They think they can wave a magick wand and win the lotto.  But the fact that remains that no matter how much visualization and meditation you do, the best method for winning the lotto is by buying lotto tickets.

Magick is not about rejecting the physical world.  It is about using all possible resources to get what one wants.  The hard part is identifying which resources are usefull.  The really hard part, is figuring out what you want.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on May 03, 2008, 11:40:09 PM

Quote from: Tyler on May 01, 2008, 05:45:27 PM

But magick alone is not enough to get the what you want. you need to go out and do it too.

This is one of the biggest mistakes of new practicioners.  They think they can wave a magick wand and win the lotto.  But the fact that remains that no matter how much visualization and meditation you do, the best method for winning the lotto is by buying lotto tickets.Magick is not about rejecting the physical world.  It is about using all possible resources to get what one wants.  The hard part is identifying which resources are usefull.  The really hard part, is figuring out what you want.

Very good advice, made me smile too.  :)   :laugh:

Well, there are three types of magic in the world, as I see it.  1. Pull-a-rabbit-out-of-a-hat magic. This is the sort of magic Harry Houdini did and David Copperfield does. This is the illusionary, trickery form of magic.  2. Turn-a-prince-into-a-frog magic. This is the stuff of fairy tales, the sort of thing make-believe evil queens and witches (note the lowercase W) do :laugh:. This is the storybook, fiction magic. 3. Ritual religious magic. This type of magic is another form of prayer, this is what Wiccans/Witches (capital W here, there is a difference from "witch") and other Pagans do. This magic is as real as Christians saying rosary or Jews saying kiddish.

Quote from: Pia on May 04, 2008, 05:10:03 AM
3. Ritual religious magic.

Actually I would break it down more like this.  In terms of "magickal thinking" we have approximately four categories.  The first two are designed to change the mind, the second two are designed to change the environment.

1)  Illusion
The art of tricking people.

2)  Imagination
Using the thought to aid one's perception of reality.

3)  Ritual
Using physical methods to directly affect reality.

4)  Mysticism
Using insight to divine the nature of reality (and thus, how to affect it)



A good example of the differences is that I would pull a rabbit out of a hat to fool someone (illusion).  I would use imagination to write a story.  I would light candles and chant to become closer to God (ritual).  Or I would meditate on a hilltop to discover the meaning of nature (mysticism).

This is just attitude.  You could further define these categories into actual methods and beliefs.  Theism, laws of retribution, salvation, enlightenment.  All such beliefs will further affect how one approaches magick, and what their intentions and methods are.

One explanation I've read for how Magick works, that made a lot of sense to me, is that the ritual distracts the logical, conscious part of the mind so that the subconscious can go about its business of acting on your intentions without interference.

And on the subject of Gardner, he was actually only the first to have written about Wicca ,from the point of view of an insider, when the legal ban on witchcraft in England was overturned in 1951.  (He was initiated into the religion by a witch named Dorothy Clutterback in 1939.)  Other scholars, like Margaret Murray, have traced underground pagan groups back to at least the 1600's, and there are accounts of Goddess worship groups in France dating back to the 1100's.  So, no, it was not invented by hippies. Although, to be fair, there are many many groups, especially in the U.S., that pretty much make up their own versions of the Religion.

Why not, the Americans invented their own version of being Catholic too.  Far less ritual then you find in the RC churches in the third world for sure. 

Sometimes things seem to work because you think they will work, in pharmacology its called the 'placebo effect.'  It could be that the only power is that which is in us that we either draw out, or subvert and that its nothing of the world, except to the degree we are connected with it.

Quote from: Jamie-o on May 04, 2008, 05:38:12 PM
One explanation I've read for how Magick works, that made a lot of sense to me, is that the ritual distracts the logical, conscious part of the mind so that the subconscious can go about its business of acting on your intentions without interference.

Gaining control of the prefrontal cortex of the brain is paramount in many forms of ritual or meditation.  This area of the brain is involved with logical associations and judgment.  In some traditions, bypassing logical thinking is necessary to even perform magick entirely.  In chaotic applications, logic is considered an organizing factor of the universe, but not a creative factor.  Thus, logic is only usefull in organizing and presenting information, but the actual "doing" of something does not require logic.

QuoteSometimes things seem to work because you think they will work, in pharmacology its called the 'placebo effect.'

I would argue that placebo and nocebo effects are a form of subtle magick.  Placebo effect happens when you believe something so intently, that you influence the outcome of the probability of it happening just by thinking about it.  Some scientists tested the theory using random number generators.  And there's a history of placebo effects in the medical literature.

Nobody is entirely certain how placebo effect actually works.

You remind me of the guy I sold oregano to in high school who told me how high he got on it.

All that, be that as it may, violates Occam's razor, and while I try not to adhere to many rules, I do hold that one true.

Of course, its possible that though is the missing dimension, which would not not violate Occam's razor at all.

May be, the only real magic, is you.

A while back I had promised myself to stay away from this subject on this board.  I will not state my reason for revisiting it but I have one.

Energies come from everywhere, the earth, plants, air and water as well as from Universe itself.  If you can be at peace with yourself and become harmonious with the universal energies certain channels will open for you.  This is where imagination and intention come in and the last requirement is *believing* in your own abilities.

You need to be in harmony with the earth elements to manifest what you need or want. Do not forget that these energies do not discriminate negative from positive, that is left for you to make the right choice. This is where I quite agree with Eloise about placing your request or desire to the elements but then there is also foot work involved to bring this magic into being in this reality. If you have gone this far you will know the right steps to take.  You will be led.

QuoteHi

QuoteMagick, according to my understanding, is the use of will, visualization and focus to help you to achieve a certain goal by alternative means.
Dion Fortune said that 'Magick is the art of changing consciousness at will.'

Will is Intention and Determination.
With Intention comes Imagination to be able to visualize the end result you desire. and then you obviously need to keep concentrating on that visualization.

But magick alone is not enough to get the what you want. you need to go out and do it too.
i mean, you can't lie in bed and wish for a man and hope you get him, now can you? (-^.^-)

Wiccan Magick is generally considered the low art and is concerned with the manisfestation of physical or material gain for the witch/warlock e.g casting a love spell to win the heart of another person or creating a talisman to attract wealth. Wiccan magick is not comparable to the teachings of the Qabalah taught by The Order of the Golden. Practitioners of the Golden Dawn and the Qabalah practice a form of Magick called the high art. Their principle goal is to further their spiritual enlightenment during their lifetime so that their soul moves closure to what many religions call god. The ulimate goal is to become one with the universe or rather to become one with nothingness (or god). Ultimately, you must decide what you want, material gain or spiritual enlightenment. I know which I would choose.

The Qabalah is an excellent means of research. Did you know there actually physicists and other members of science research, use to Qabalah for reference to aid their research? It is all in the infinite potentials within the written characters in Hebrew of the book it's self, this is where the true value of it's lessons reside. *These can be found in the form of codes and mathematical equations are defined or imbeded by in the multiples in the Hebrew characters and their positions within the text.

Cindy

Magic is using your will to affect the world (or at least your personal piece of the world) and to help you sense things you normally don't sense.

Most of this stuff is stuff that can be done without magic. It's a way to focus your energies (physical or metaphysical, doesn't really matter).

Do people shoot fireballs or levitate or whatever? Nah, usually not. Mostly it's minor tricks, ways to speed up healing, adjust emotions, tap into things that your body knows but your mind doesn't.

Good example, water witching. Take two L shaped wires, hold the short ends in your hands, with the long ends pointing out. Walk over underground water (such as a water main) and the wires will cross. Your body knows the water is there (water has interesting electric properties, and you can use electronic devices to detect water also), so it's just a way to channel your bodies knowledge into something you can more easily observe (the wires crossing).

For the most part, magic is just unproven science. Astronomy was magic until we built telescopes big enough to confirm things. Psychiatry was definitely magic before it became an accepted science. Chemistry was magic before it became chemistry. Magic is just using science that hasn't become mainstream or proved yet. Some magic will turn out to be crap in the long run, and some will become a science eventually. The fact that most people that are into magic don't research it in scientific ways of course makes things a little bit more blurry.

Is worshiping a goddess needed in order to work magic? No, but it makes things easier for some (a calculator is not required to do math, but many will find it easier than doing it by hand). Is trapping it in all sorts of mysticism required to make magic work? Not in my personal opinion.

My personal belief... Magic exists. And if we understood everything about the universe, nothing would be considered 'magical', because magic is a moving target, it is that cutting edge of something, and if nothing is cutting edge, then there is no magic. I believe we are capable of much more than we realize. I think our bodies can perceive more about our environment than we realize, and I believe that we have more impact on the universe than what we can physically touch with our physical hands.

I'm a witch by some terms, meaning that many non-witch folks want to burn me at the stake. I am a warlock by some terms, meaning that many witch folks want to burn me at the stake. Either way, I think that magic exists, and that many forms of magic are complete crap, and I know I am wrong on some points. But mostly people want to burn me at the stake because I think that gods and goddess are crap too.

I've had to think carefully about my reply here. I didn't want to just post a knee-jerk reaction to comments I found to be hateful and uninformed.

Laura, I don't know by what philosophy you live your life. But even if I did, I would not refer to a key component of it as being '"cra*p" mysticism.' I would hope that you would extend the same courtesy to me. Your comment is almost something I would expect from a fundamentalist. I do not regard key parts of my religion as being crap. You have the right to your opinion and the right to express it; I don't challenge that. I merely request that you not disparage me and my way of life.

Tekla, I'd almost believe the "placebo effect" comment if it weren't for the number of scientific studies I've read where it had been found that meditation effected actual physical changes within the practioner's brain. A nurse practioner once told me that the placebo effect is real, if it accomplishes the intended goal.

Lydia, most Wiccan with whom I have studied will tell you firstly that no one would call themselves a "warlock," as that word is considered synonymous with "oath breaker." Even men call themselves "witches." I don't, only because I haven't had any formal training. Furthermore, "casting a love spell to win the heart of another person" is also frowned upon because one is not to work magick for another without the other's consent. This holds true even for healing magick. Not all Wiccan magic is for personal or material gain. I've yet to encounter any magick of that kind in any ritual I've attended. This "low art" comment seems to me to be a generalization. All of my magick workings to date have been focussed on spiritual enlightenment.

I am not an expert on Wiccan magick. But, here's my take on it:

What a Wiccan, or Asatru for that matter, tries to accomplish with magick is quite similar to what a Christian tries to accomplish with prayer or what a Buddhist tries to accomplish with zazen and the dedication of the merit of one's practice.

There have not been any profound results in my magick workings to date. But, there have been beneficial results. Could they have been nothing more than the placebo effect? Perhaps. But, the effects were there however they arrived.

Quote from: Pia on May 04, 2008, 05:10:03 AM
Well, there are three types of magic in the world, as I see it.  1. Pull-a-rabbit-out-of-a-hat magic. This is the sort of magic Harry Houdini did and David Copperfield does. This is the illusionary, trickery form of magic.  2. Turn-a-prince-into-a-frog magic. This is the stuff of fairy tales, the sort of thing make-believe evil queens and witches (note the lowercase W) do :laugh:. This is the storybook, fiction magic. 3. Ritual religious magic. This type of magic is another form of prayer, this is what Wiccans/Witches (capital W here, there is a difference from "witch") and other Pagans do. This magic is as real as Christians saying rosary or Jews saying kiddish.

I'd add a fourth kind.  Both Heinlein and Clarke, two of the Big Three of the Golden Age of Science fiction, had a quote talking about it.

Heinlein: "One man's magic is another man's engineering"

Clarke:  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

That said, I won't say that 'magick' is impossible.  I will say that there are a lot of people out of there that are gullible and there are others that will try to capitalize on that gullibility.

Hi Rowan_Danielle

QuoteThat said, I won't say that 'magick' is impossible.  I will say that there are a lot of people out of there that are gullible and there are others that will try to capitalize on that gullibility.

This quote in particular is the biggest obstacle or downfall for both the gullible and truly gifted.

Cindy

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 08, 2008, 09:13:09 AM

Lydia, most Wiccan with whom I have studied will tell you firstly that no one would call themselves a "warlock," as that word is considered synonymous with "oath breaker." Even men call themselves "witches." I don't, only because I haven't had any formal training.

*raises hand* I'm a warlock by your definition. Long story. But I wear the title with pride now. And for the record, warlocks are *not* evil... They just don't like to follow rules.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 08, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
Furthermore, "casting a love spell to win the heart of another person" is also frowned upon because one is not to work magick for another without the other's consent. This holds true even for healing magick. Not all Wiccan magic is for personal or material gain. I've yet to encounter any magick of that kind in any ritual I've attended. This "low art" comment seems to me to be a generalization. All of my magick workings to date have been focussed on spiritual enlightenment.

Yeah. That's a bad thing to do alright.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 08, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
What a Wiccan, or Asatru for that matter, tries to accomplish with magick is quite similar to what a Christian tries to accomplish with prayer or what a Buddhist tries to accomplish with zazen and the dedication of the merit of one's practice.

Good comparison.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 08, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
There have not been any profound results in my magick workings to date. But, there have been beneficial results. Could they have been nothing more than the placebo effect? Perhaps. But, the effects were there however they arrived.

And the same could be said for answered and unanswered prayers.

Quote from: cindybc on May 05, 2008, 03:33:04 AM
Energies come from everywhere, the earth, plants, air and water as well as from Universe itself.  If you can be at peace with yourself and become harmonious with the universal energies certain channels will open for you.  This is where imagination and intention come in and the last requirement is *believing* in your own abilities.

You need to be in harmony with the earth elements to manifest what you need or want. Do not forget that these energies do not discriminate negative from positive, that is left for you to make the right choice. This is where I quite agree with Eloise about placing your request or desire to the elements but then there is also foot work involved to bring this magic into being in this reality. If you have gone this far you will know the right steps to take.  You will be led.
 

While I consider myself to be tech and science oriented, I can certainly agree with the thoughts posted here.  Just because something can't be detected with our current technology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

There are quite a few sources that bring up the fact that imagination and intent are at the core of change. 

"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve."  Napoleon Hill.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."  Albert Einstein.

I've run into a few instances where serendipity strikes and creates a major change in life.  It was almost as if the universe was setting things up so that a hint of a step in the right direction puts one on the path toward one's dreams.

While work and self interest is involved, it sometimes helps if other things line up so the effort you put into things is multiplied a hundred fold.

Hi Rowan_Danielle I could both kiss and hug you hon. I was sitting here on my lap top waiting for my mate to come out from allergy testing and we are going to move on. I couldn't leave before saying that we do appear to have some mutual beliefs that may be worth discussing.

Cindy

I do not doubt, nor do I discount the placebo effect, I'm sure its true.  Its the question of this being in you, or outside of you, and I'm thinking its the first, not the second.

Quote from: cindybc on May 08, 2008, 06:07:42 PM
Hi Rowan_Danielle I could both kiss and hug you hon. I was sitting here on my lap top waiting for my mate to come out from allergy testing and we are going to move on. I couldn't leave before saying that we do appear to have some mutual beliefs that may be worth discussing.

Cindy

We'll have to come up with a decent venue for discussion.  While forums have their advantages, they can sometimes be disrupted or sidetracked.  At the same time, the distractions can be useful.

A composite discussion perhaps?

Hi Rowan_Danielle
Yes ther is a forum for the spiritual that already exists.
Go to home page and scroll down till you see the word Spiritual You will see a list there that says Metaphysics, Empaths and Empathy, Mystics and a any other there you may want to check out. they haven't been active for a while.

Or for the more scientific side check out   Cindi answers questions about our universe

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on May 09, 2008, 03:09:32 PM
Hi Rowan_Danielle
Yes ther is a forum for the spiritual that already exists.
Go to home page and scroll down till you see the word Spiritual You will see a list there that says Metaphysics, Empaths and Empathy, Mystics and a any other there you may want to check out. they haven't been active for a while.

Or for the more scientific side check out   Cindi answers questions about our universe

Cindy

I'll have to check those out a bit later.  Going to be a bit busy tonight though. 

OK, check them out and see what you think there are well at least I have several different avenues at my disposal we could use to share Ideas and theories.

Cindy

Hi there,

I have some general comments I'd like to share about how I see magic in the modern world, but I'm not a Wiccan.  Is it appropriate for me to post them to this thread?

Hi ell sweets, I think it would be rather hard to prevent anyone of the supernatural or any other type of persons of the dark arts out on any thread on this board unless they are bared or could be bared from coming in unless they were to create a disruption in the flow of the thread. I would suggest maybe Susan's chat room if we can open our own Chanel there for the discussion of spirituality, metaphysics and quantum physics let us say, if not, we could always communicate by email or meet at a certain date and time on Yahoo Messenger and other means of web communications.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on May 19, 2008, 09:40:27 PM
Hi ell sweets, I think it would be rather hard to prevent anyone of the supernatural or any other type of persons of the dark arts out on any thread on this board unless they are bared or could be bared from coming in unless they were to create a disruption in the flow of the thread. I would suggest maybe Susan's chat room if we can open our own Chanel there for the discussion of spirituality, metaphysics and quantum physics let us say, if not, we could always communicate by email or meet at a certain date and time on Yahoo Messenger and other means of web communications.

Cindy

ya i know, sometimes i just wanna delete all my posts and shut my mouth and not say anything ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja6_h4lT6A

-Ell

All, please pardon the rant...


Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Why is it that those who don't share my beliefs can't just say so without demeaning folks like me? I could understand if I was a fundie, screaming hellfire and damnation. Then, the demeaning comments could be seen as a defense mechanism. But, I use my religion to govern my life, and no one elses. Why, then, do I have to be a virtual punching bag for those who disagree with me? I've not condemned anyone.


OK, I've cleared my colon; sorry for the mess.

By the way, that Tool song was great. I think I need to check the local libraries again for Tool CDs...

Hi, as far as I'm concerned I have nothing against anyone's beliefs unless their beliefs are hurtful to others, *like the fundamentalists.*

This is not my message board, I will not pass judgment on anyone else about my personal feelings on any given faith. However,  I have discovered with personal experience that we can benefit and learn and grow from what we learn from one another, no matter what the faith.

I am here to share, learn and teach whatever knowledge I have accumulated about the realm of the metaphysical. As to what one wants to classify themselves, their trade mark is what they're chosen to follow as their strong point and that is their prerogative and right. As long as they don't violate those rights by hurting others when doing so.

I have listed but a few different ways that are at our disposal for communication. A place to use where we can have a one on one conversions on any topic of our choosing, again, for the purpose learning about the metaphysical with friendly, unrestricted sharing of thoughts. 

Cindy

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 20, 2008, 03:15:16 PM
All, please pardon the rant...


Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Why is it that those who don't share my beliefs can't just say so without demeaning folks like me? I could understand if I was a fundie, screaming hellfire and damnation. Then, the demeaning comments could be seen as a defense mechanism. But, I use my religion to govern my life, and no one elses. Why, then, do I have to be a virtual punching bag for those who disagree with me? I've not condemned anyone.


OK, I've cleared my colon; sorry for the mess.

By the way, that Tool song was great. I think I need to check the local libraries again for Tool CDs...

i said i was sorry!  then i crossed out the whole post.  when i do that, you're just 'posed ta ignore it.

what i meant, was, i disagree with what they have been trying to jam down my throat since i was still in swaddling clothes, and with the way they've been trying to do it, and how every time i see or hear that stuff on TV or on the radio, they still imply how i am somehow wicked in the eyes of God. for being Trans, or for being queer or something. it is simply not fair to have a God in the sky who never talks and for them to sit there and tell me what He's thinking. really, they could just say anything. and, if it's something that makes God angry, why, then they get angry, and then feel they have the God-given right to treat me like i'm sub-human.

i apogize for making it sound like all that stuff is only for dopes.

what i meant was, it can be and is used against people that they don't like, and those of us who are harmed, have just absolutely no recourse.

-Ell

Oh Ell hon, you know how I feel about you. There are ways one can express their feelings about certain touchy subjects and come out the other end like, did they just get slapped in the face? Or was it a compliment? It just depends on how you choose and use the words. Always be cool but let the other know you have an extra large frozen mackerel to whack them with if they don't behave.   ;D
Now I will watch the you tube you posted.

Cindy

Posted on: May 20, 2008, 04:26:19 PM

---

Hi, Ell, hon,

Quotethey still imply how i am somehow wicked in the eyes of God. for being Trans, or for being queer or something. it is simply not fair to have a God in the sky who never talks and for them to sit there and tell me what He's thinking

I do know what you mean, Ell, goodness I been there too, even before I knew anything about TS. I was an outcast not only to religion, I was an outcast in society because I was weird, different - period.

I quit the Catholic church when I was 16 and never looked back. Since I was condemned to go straight to hell because of all my sins and weirdness, why should I waste my time within the walls of their church? I was a loner for the most part of my life but once I got past postalcoholic I began to learn different things about spirituality.  My humble beginnings into spirituality were in another book called the Big Book, not to be mistaken for the Bible. I  have made a lot of research on many different teachings of spirituality and came to favor Ojibwa Native spirituality.

Anyway, what it all boils down to is I have developed my own faith through the years. Sometimes I share my thoughts with Wing Walker and to her amazement she has found the very same statements in the Bible that I believed in and I never really studied the Bible much.

I am a freewill agent, which path shall I follow? I follow the one that feels right to me.

*All are as one and the Oneness resides within the One, infinitum*

Cindy   

Ellie,

I wasn't trying to attack you for your comments.

I should have just let it go. Sorry.

Hi Shades O'Grey, Everyone needs to express their feelings at times. I believe it seems that we have all just done, so now can we continue not continue our discussion of the Wiccan Magic and the infinities of the quantum realities and the understanding of the forces of the elements of nature to be harnessed by those who are sufficiently awakened.

Cindy 

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 20, 2008, 05:28:38 PM
Ellie,

I wasn't trying to attack you for your comments.

I should have just let it go. Sorry.

i accept your apology, though i am not mad at you, and i don't feel that you owed me an apology.  :)  and i appreciate that you appreciated the Tool video.

-Ellie

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 20, 2008, 03:15:16 PM
Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Tradition, mostly.

People are taught that they are supposed to be a certain way and do a certain thing.  People are taught that they are supposed to play with footballs instead of dolls, that they should take rather than give orders, or that they should go to college, eat breakfast, go on a diet, have kids, raise a family, drive a car, hold a steady job, celebrate their birthday, and pay their taxes.

Most people will do all of these things without ever considering why they are doing them, or who they are doing them for.  The sad fact of the matter is that most people will live their lives without ever questioning whether their dreams have meaning, whether ghosts exist, or whether they have the power to converse with their dead grandmother, or even speak to God himself.  And certainly few people will even question who God is in the first place.

Some of us will realize more.  We will realize that there are more conscious things to be aware of than our own body and our own existence.  That there is more knowledge than merely science.  That there is a greater state of mind than judgment and ignorance.  That there is a universe in a flower, or an ecosystem in a breath.  That the whole world is connected.  That no action is insignificant, that no intent goes unheard.  That there is more power, and more love, than people have previously imagined.

Those of us who realize this, call ourselves magicians.  We have become enlightened sooner than everyone else.  And because we have seen the light before others, we are condemned to pursue that light in spite of others.  Because once you have seen the light, you will no longer desire to dwell in darkness and ignorance.

I've had many amazing visions during my meditations.  And I don't care anymore that people laugh at me or try to tell me that I'm wasting my time.  Because I've seen other possibilities.  I've seen a brave new world.  I can let people live their lives in judgment, worried about their gas prices and their picket fence.  I don't care that they call me delusional, because I know they are just as much so.  They have convinced themselves that there is nothing beyond the body, that society is important, or that there is nothing more to life than death and taxes.  But these things, these ideas and limitations, aren't any more "real" than the visions I experience in my meditations.

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

I have already chosen my belief.  What's yours?

Hi VeryGnawty

That was some wonderful enlightening insights that I have heard many times from different people, maybe different words. but same meanings. I just only wish I could share it with others but as you have seen here. Most don't seem to care and as for telling anyone about your visions in meditation, don't bother, people just think your nuts. Anyway that's it for me and the metaphysical. I know what I know and it will remain within me. Sadly that if only people realised that by following the light this light can also enlighten the inner-self. Such a waste because such an understanding could be a great tool for understanding our transsexuality, *the inner self*.

Cindy

   

Quote from: VeryGnawty on May 21, 2008, 07:19:16 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 20, 2008, 03:15:16 PM
Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Tradition, mostly.

People are taught that they are supposed to be a certain way and do a certain thing.  People are taught that they are supposed to play with footballs instead of dolls, that they should take rather than give orders, or that they should go to college, eat breakfast, go on a diet, have kids, raise a family, drive a car, hold a steady job, celebrate their birthday, and pay their taxes.

Most people will do all of these things without ever considering why they are doing them, or who they are doing them for.  The sad fact of the matter is that most people will live their lives without ever questioning whether their dreams have meaning, whether ghosts exist, or whether they have the power to converse with their dead grandmother, or even speak to God himself.  And certainly few people will even question who God is in the first place.

Some of us will realize more.  We will realize that there are more conscious things to be aware of than our own body and our own existence.  That there is more knowledge than merely science.  That there is a greater state of mind than judgment and ignorance.  That there is a universe in a flower, or an ecosystem in a breath.  That the whole world is connected.  That no action is insignificant, that no intent goes unheard.  That there is more power, and more love, than people have previously imagined.

Those of us who realize this, call ourselves magicians.  We have become enlightened sooner than everyone else.  And because we have seen the light before others, we are condemned to pursue that light in spite of others.  Because once you have seen the light, you will no longer desire to dwell in darkness and ignorance.

I've had many amazing visions during my meditations.  And I don't care anymore that people laugh at me or try to tell me that I'm wasting my time.  Because I've seen other possibilities.  I've seen a brave new world.  I can let people live their lives in judgment, worried about their gas prices and their picket fence.  I don't care that they call me delusional, because I know they are just as much so.  They have convinced themselves that there is nothing beyond the body, that society is important, or that there is nothing more to life than death and taxes.  But these things, these ideas and limitations, aren't any more "real" than the visions I experience in my meditations.

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

I have already chosen my belief.  What's yours?

Hello, Very,

I do not know anything of Wicca.  I was born into a family that has been Catholic for more than a millenium .  However, I do know when something makes sense to me and I grab onto it and hold it with all I can.  Such is what you have written here.  I could not have said it better myself.  I wish I had said it.

There is nothing in what you have said that is not a part of my own belief system and I love it that way.  It allows me to be unalterably optimistic, joyously romantic, thankful for each second that passes and that which fills it.  Simply because I cannot see something with my eyes doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  I have always questioned authority and have been very judicious with it when it was given to me.  I prefer to build people up to tearing them down.

Dreams are, IMHO, are a gift from my Creator so that I might have some sort of road map to find a higher plane on which to exist, to have more to share with others.  Call it karma or whatever you will, but the more that is given to someone by the Higher Power, the more that will be required of that person and I stand ready to share whatever I have.

Many people have no idea of the time value of money, not to mention the value of time itself.  There is so much work to be done to make this world a better place to live and so few people willing to skip watching "American Idol" to do it.

"Will you try to change things with the power that you have, with the power of a million new ideas?" --- from "Dialogues" by Chicago

Thank you for sharing and thank you for hearing me out, All.

Wing Walker

Quote from: VeryGnawty on May 21, 2008, 07:19:16 PM
Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in both choices.  In my philosophy this world is a place of both true joy and true sorrow, and I have known both.

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 22, 2008, 05:18:04 AM
Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in both choices.  In my philosophy this world is a place of both true joy and true sorrow, and I have known both.

But the real question is, which one are you creating?  Are you creating limits, or acceptance?  Love, or hate?  Joy, or despair?

It doesn't matter what the world does to us.  It only matters what we do to the world.

For me Magic is the most effective metaphor for interacting with the reality around me as I currently perceive it.  I think Science is a system in the same way.  But I'm less comfortable with it's jargon, so instead of talking about Heisenberg or whatever, I talk about Phil Hine.

I've only been practicing magic for about 7 or 8 months now, but I've already seen and done some amazing things with my work, and it progresses daily.  I try to keep record of what procedures I do, and what results I get, so that I can get better and better at the systems I've helped put together. 

Quote from: VeryGnawty on May 21, 2008, 07:19:16 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 20, 2008, 03:15:16 PM
Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Those of us who realize this, call ourselves magicians. 

We have become enlightened sooner than everyone else. 

I have already chosen my belief.  What's yours?

i already stated my position (sorry 'bout that).

however, since it was almost universally hated, i will try and cease discussing it here, and i will remove my original post.

-Ellie

What were you wanting to discuss?  I didn't see what you originally wrote.

Ell, don't feel bad for sharing your opinion. There'll always be someone who doesn't agree with you (like me), but don't let that make you feel like you should keep your opinions to yourself. ;)

Personally, I don't like the idea of steering away from using certain terms. It's like trying to explain something in a round about way to avoid admitting that you believe in it. Or to curve the way it's presented to make it more believable, either for yourself or others.

Quotepeople apparently have no more reason to believe me than i have to believe them, when they start talking about a metaphysical concept.

When it comes to magic and/or religion you have to accept that there are 2 types of people: Believers and non-believers. And it takes a lot more than a few carefully chosen words to turn a non-believer into a believer and vice-versa.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on May 22, 2008, 07:02:43 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 22, 2008, 05:18:04 AM
Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in both choices.  In my philosophy this world is a place of both true joy and true sorrow, and I have known both.

But the real question is, which one are you creating?  Are you creating limits, or acceptance?  Love, or hate?  Joy, or despair?

It doesn't matter what the world does to us.  It only matters what we do to the world.

I would have to say that we individually create both joy and sorrow.  I don't think we have complete choice in that.  But we also pass around what we create to others.  So there are two questions.  What do we make an effort to create?  And what do we impose on those around us?

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

The old joke is that there are two groups of people in the world, those that divide everyone into two groups, and those who do not.  Guess I'm part of that other group. 

That endless love in some way or another always ends is no reason not to go after it.  That technology is not limitless, is not a reason not to use it to the limits, that the world is finite is not a reason for you to seek abundance. 

It does not require a life of fear to realize that everything is not exactly possible.  Try as you might, or as I might - and all the practice, all the workouts (or even magic) and neither of us are ever going to be Mike Jordan or Tiger Woods.  OK, I can live with that.  I can live with all the study under the best teachers and I was not going to be Einstein, but with work I could begin to glimpse what he was saying, and that ain't bad. 

I spent all of the last week and a half standing on stage and in the audience watching Jackie Green, Larry Cambell, Phil Lesh and Carlos Santana and even though I'm not half bad, I ain't ever going to be that good.  So, I'm not selling out the Warfield or the Fillmore, perhaps the band I play with never does any more than play a few private parties - I can still have fun.  I can still dig it.  Its still real, albeit on a different scale.  To think that life is without any limits would make that experience worse, I would not be enjoying, I would only be projecting, and, in that, missing the real important part, that which I share with Jackie, Phil, Carlos, and Larry - the joy of making music with my friends for other friends.

So, there is a third way (and a fourth, fifth and on, and on, and on) and for me that entails a bit of realism injected into the dream.  And more than a dollop of acceptance too.  So, I may not be as good as those guys, I have been able to work closely with them, and for a whole lot of people, that in and of itself should have been enough, and I should rejoice and be glad in it.  And I am, and I do. 

And realism sees that not all people are savages, but any level of introspection will tell each and every one of us that it lays not all that far under the surface, and, that there are very real people in the world who wear it on their sleeves and perhaps one ought not cross paths with them unless prepared - and best if we not do it at all. 

Quote from: ell on May 23, 2008, 12:02:17 AM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on May 22, 2008, 09:39:43 PM
What were you wanting to discuss?  I didn't see what you originally wrote.

Hi Sarah, (nice to hear from you) well, i was just yapping about trying to find the essential positive elements of religion and magic without ever using one metaphysical or supernatural term. i had been focusing in working with the core personality, sometimes called the inner self (though i shy away from that term too, because in some Eastern religions, there are many metaphysical aspects associated with that).

unfortunately, of course, for many people, the core personality is itself a somewhat mythical beast. i try explaining what i mean, and people usually either scoff or scratch their heads. based on little more than my own experiences, i can only say that it does exist, and people apparently have no more reason to believe me than i have to believe them, when they start talking about a metaphysical concept.

anyway, that was about it, though i stated it a bit less cautiously, and accidentally ruffled some feathers

-Ellie
   

Hmmm. Well it's generally said that the goal of a lot of magic is the attainment of self-understanding, higher self, core self.  At the end of the day magic is just words.  You don't even have to believe in magic to use it.  It can be as fantastical or as mundane as it works for you to use.

For me I use magic as a metaphor to manipulate, find, and deal with inner consciousnesses, and to become better at externalizing my internal will(or even just becoming more in tune with what my desires are and why they are that way).  I am an artist, so magic is very useful for me because it's built around words and trance states, which is what writing is built around.  So it's very easy for me to write fiction in one hand, and then step over and do an evocation ceremony and talk with a god in the other.  Now are these beings I summon real?  I don't think that's the right question.  They are real to the extent that I bring them out and visualize them there in front of me, and they have personalities and things and I an learn from them.  But in essence what I'm dealing with in that situation are projected aspects of myself.  Like say I work with a war god or something, over time those aspects of my personality are going to strengthen and change, and it's just because I'm putting an emphasis on that part of me.

Now some people embrace the spiritual aspects wholly and completely.  While others do the same thing with science.  I don't think either is right or wrong.  They just are.  People have different ways of approaching the same problems that plague us all.  I do think magic can be much more approachable than say physics for a lot of people.  Money has stratified education such that you have to be so focused in one science or subject to be able to use it at all well, that you become somewhat inept in others.  Magic because of the Internet is more available, and because it is older, in some ways it's been more paired down and is in many ways easier to do and approach.  Ideally you would create your own magic out of the things which you are best at, and what makes the most sense for you.

QuoteNow are these beings I summon real?  I don't think that's the right question.

"Real" is a very poor descriptor for the way the world works.  War of the Worlds isn't real, but that didn't stop the initial radio broadcast causing mass hysteria and panic when people couldn't tell the difference between a radio show, and an alien invasion.  Many religions can't be shown to be true, but that doesn't stop religion from being one of the primary shaping forces of people's lives and culture.

Instead of asking whether something is real, it is better to ask how does it affect someone's life?  For example, I may hold a conversation with a formless being from the 23rd plane of existence.  It's rather irrelevant whether or not beings from the 23rd plane of existence actually exist.  What is important, is what I do with the information I learned in my travel, whether it is a figment of my imagination or not.

Things don't have to be real to have real effects.  In fact, most of what people believe isn't real.  But it is real in the way it affects their thinking and behavior.

Ive been practicing magick for about 10 years. Id say the majority of magicks power is in the minds of the people. It mainly serves as an aid and a visualisation to which I can transmute change into the physical realm. 

Here is how magick works explained simply:
You believe > They Believe > Change happens

Their belief is entirely subconscious of course.

Scrying and divination is easy if you know how to meditate, so is reading minds.

I believed someone put a curse on me years ago and as soon as I did a ritual to dispel it I no longer had the problem that I thought the curse was causing. Yes, it mightve been psychological, but if it works it works.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 07:22:34 PM
Please pull the other one ......

I've never figured the attraction between TS and this "cra*p" mysticism ....

Just love someone to explain ...  ::) ...

Laura

If I may take a stab at an answer, the transsexual we are already keenly aware that what is commonly known and accepted isn't necessarily true.


As for magic by whatever name, well, personally I tend to consider it synonymous with energy work. Personally I have had some pretty inexplicable things happen in my life, often enough that chance seems improbable. So in essence I am really keen on the thought that .... well, a line from William Shakespeare's Hamlet(Act 1. Scene V) sums it up nicely, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Personally I have found this notion to be exceptionally true again and again and again.  Simply, as best as I can (in)humanly tell, truth is stranger than fiction. (That is saying something!) ... But meh, just my words, sand in the wind...

Quote from: tekla on May 23, 2008, 03:54:04 PM
Try as you might, or as I might - and all the practice, all the workouts (or even magic) and neither of us are ever going to be Mike Jordan or Tiger Woods.  OK, I can live with that.  I can live with all the study under the best teachers and I was not going to be Einstein, but with work I could begin to glimpse what he was saying, and that ain't bad.

I disagree.

If I worked really hard at it, I probably could beat Tiger Woods.  But why would I want to?  Why would I want to spend all that time when there is already a Tiger Woods who I have no need to compete with?

Everyone is their own genius, just in a different way.  I am every bit the intellect that Einstein was, it's just that my concern is not over space or time, but on other things instead.  I know things which he most certainly didn't, and he knew things which I haven't completely pieced together.

But that's OK, too.  The fact is, I have no desire to spend half a lifetime studying the intricacies of space and time.  I am much more interested in the body, and what affects it.  And if that is the only legacy I leave behind, then I have already done more than most people.

To me, magick is the same way.  Either you know it, or you don't.  People who don't believe it or have no interest in it will certainly never be able to use it anymore than they will be the next Einstein or Hawking.  But there are a select few who are drawn to it, and after years of practice and research they may make groundbreaking discoveries about how the universe works.  And they are every bit as genius as Nobel or Newton.  In fact, Newton spent most of his time in "occult" studies, much to the dismay of the scientific community.

But nobody is less.  I respect metaphysical investigators like Wattles just as much as Einstein, or physical explorers such as David Belle.  Each of these people have come across knowledge which is equally groundbreaking.  It is merely groundbreaking in a different way.  If you think you can't be as good as Einstein because you don't understand how a black hole works, you are selling yourself short.

I also agree with Kimberly.  Truth is much stranger than fiction.  Perhaps that's why only strange and unusual people seem to uncover the truth.  Many of history's great inventors and discoverers were a little "eccentric" to say the least.  Magicians are often the crackpots of the lot.  Personally, I'd rather hang out with someone who's a little off their rocker.  Because chances are, they are going to be the next Einstein.

QuoteTruth is much stranger than fiction.  Perhaps that's why only strange and unusual people seem to uncover the truth.  Many of history's great inventors and discoverers were a little "eccentric" to say the least.  Magicians are often the crackpots of the lot.  Personally, I'd rather hang out with someone who's a little off their rocker.  Because chances are, they are going to be the next Einstein.

"Hee, hee, hee." I think I love you, VeryGnawty, sweets, like minds eh? Well I certainly do agree on the greater part of what you have posted, especially on the part that we are unique and in many ways quite possibly at the same level and in some instances maybe even beyond the knowing of Einstein and Newton.

But since we are only human consistency in any one observation, these observations will differ and vary in detail and content with each individual. Each interpreting it through their own rational mental processes at different levels of development in perceptual consciousness. I can read Einsteins formulas and the Unified Theory of All Things, but just don't ask me to do the math.

Taking the Unified Theory of All Things + Einstein's Theory of the Infinite Potentialities, I would have to admit that this leaves little doubt that anything is possible, so why not majick? We are the ones that put limits, road blocks, doubt, deception and even deliberate lies as stumbling blocks to keep ourselves confused and lost and as a result, we all come short of finding the way to our full potentials.

As for what does spirituality and transsexuals got to do with the price of tea in China? I have been pondering the same thing, probably since the day I discovered what the word "transsexual" meant and the why question. Below is an excerpt from the Empaths and Empathy thread with my thoughts on the subject:

As for the spiritual part, it is what you feel in your heart. I believe that right there, there is certainly a correlation between empathics and trans folks. Both are sensitive and very easily swayed by the energy around them. The problem is that these sensitivities and overconfidence can also bring disaster upon those who have them as part of their characteristics. Some get scared of the energy around them so they retreat into themselves, not allowing their true selves to come out for fear of repercussions.

From my own observations of empathic people and those in the trans comunity we care and try to be supportive for one another other. Many of us even seek a career in social work of one type or another, whether that be in the field of nursing and even getting into careers such as psychologist and therapist counselors or many other types of administrative work or various other types of public service work. A good many come back to work with the trans comunity,

Most I have known are caring individuals, sometimes even more caring for those in need more than we do about ourselves. The other person comes first when we have these strong urges or need to be there in whatever capacity for those in need.

This is why you will find many empaths and sensitives on different boards like this and in real life as well.  Well this is my observation and maybe there is a little biased in my judgment here, being both an empath and trans  nevertheless this is what I have concluded. This is the correlation between empaths and transsexuals which I was hoping to make, where often one and the other appear to have similar qualities in character and personality and what seems to drive both from within in many aspects as I have listed above.

These people work to help others in any manner by supporting other fellow humans that are in need, so to speak, and developing sensitivities that are beyond the norm. For myself, this has been the biggest burn in my life. A burn which has kept me going to this point and to actually be grateful and humbled for the opportunity to play my part in them.

I just feel there is no better way of satisfying what is in my heart. A proud, aging lady doing the best she can to ease the pain of others. who ties her hair back and goes to work without a second thought.

Cindy     

Quote from: Pia on May 04, 2008, 05:10:03 AM
Well, there are three types of magic in the world, as I see it.  1. Pull-a-rabbit-out-of-a-hat magic. This is the sort of magic Harry Houdini did and David Copperfield does. This is the illusionary, trickery form of magic.  2. Turn-a-prince-into-a-frog magic. This is the stuff of fairy tales, the sort of thing make-believe evil queens and witches (note the lowercase W) do :laugh:. This is the storybook, fiction magic. 3. Ritual religious magic. This type of magic is another form of prayer, this is what Wiccans/Witches (capital W here, there is a difference from "witch") and other Pagans do. This magic is as real as Christians saying rosary or Jews saying kiddish.

Hi Pia,

While I'm not a practicing Wiccan, I do Wicca and paganism intriguing and have done quite a bit of reading on the subject. I've come to the same conclusion as you, magick is to Wicca what prayer is to other religions, from what I can see.

Just a different name for essentially the same thing, only in Wicca, there is no priest, rabbi or minister performing magickal ceremonies,  practitioners take on the role of priest/ess, performing the rituals themselves.

My opinion anyway.

Carol

I haven't read the entire topic yet, but as a practicing Hermetic Magician, you should know that Wicca does not equal magic, and I would say from my own personal experience, it's not the best means to practice Magic in the first place.
That said, allow me to direct you to an article that could prove to be very insightful for you-
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12373.0 (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12373.0)

I was raised Jehovahs wittness and was taught that any form of witchcraft was the work of satan, and completely evil.

I read a post on here somewhere pg 1 i think, saying that wicca was the practise of selfish magic, or something to that extent.

I just want to know how evil it can be when it teaches, and i quote from the wiccan reade

'Live an let live
fairly take and fairly give...'

And something about all energy you put out into the universe comming back to you three fold, so cursing someone would no doubt be rather hazardous
Needless to say i'm not a jehovahs wittness anymore, im not a wiccan either, though i have done the odd healing spell

Wiccan and North American Native Tradition have many similarities and their origins most likely as ancient a practice.

Healing can be taught, learned depending if the person is serious and believes in the healing energy they receive from another truly can heal. The healer is only the channel for the healing energy like an electrical wire conducts electricity from point A and B. Some are natural healers which means that one can channel these healing energies naturally without learning it form an outside source like Reiki etc.

The host to this healing energy will usually have warm tingly hands to the touch. To some people this could be the equivalent of an electric shock

Both Wiccan and North American Native Tradition both believe in a Great Spirit, Gaia, Sacred Feminine, God's hand maiden, the giver of life to universe, Wisdom. Two Spirits, The sources that the healing energies are channeled from by the healer.

Cindy

I have some information I would like to post on this, albeit it is lots and lots of information. I might post it tonight when I get back. It has much to do with magic. Get back later on this.

Hi Loving_Kindness, please do. I quite enjoy the knowledge you share, and I do always have an open mind to the new. There is so much knowledge one can accumulate through the years but regretfully after while it begins to kind of fade to the background of memory because of lack of use with those to share it with.

Cindy

I made a chart and put a youtube video up with a simple explanation. The chart is close to a total explanation when understood. I'll elaborate more when I have time to write much on the subject.

I'll be around. I truly enjoyed the other thread but I ma fast growing weary of one individual there that appears to have devoted his/her time to making some of us feel miserable.

Have a wonderful night.

Cindy

In recent news, Ive joined a coven since I last posted in this thread.

Hi Loving_Kindness
If you are still around I want to share this article with you. It touched me rather deeply when I read it. I will share something with you at the end of this posting, I thought it may make more sense after you read the article.

This article was sent to me by email by a friend

The Rainbow Warrior Prophecy

There was an old lady, from the "Cree" tribe, named "Eyes of Fire", who prophesied that one day, because of the white mans' or Yo-ne-gis' greed, there would come a time, when the fish would die in the streams, the birds would fall from the air, the waters would be blackened, and the trees would no longer be, mankind as we would know it would all but cease to exist.

There would come a time when the "keepers of the legend, stories, culture rituals, and myths, and all the Ancient Tribal Customs" would be needed to restore us to health. They would be mankinds? key to survival, they were the "Warriors of the Rainbow". There would come a day of awakening when all the peoples of all the tribes would form a New World of Justice, Peace, Freedom and recognition of the Great Spirit.

The "Warriors of the Rainbow" would spread these messages and teach all peoples of the Earth or "Elohi". They would teach them how to live the "Way of the Great Spirit". They would tell them of how the world today has turned away from the Great Spirit and that is why our Earth is "Sick".

The "Warriors of the Rainbow" would show the peoples that this "Ancient Being" (the Great Spirit), is full of love and understanding, and teach them how to make the "Earth or Elohi" beautiful again. These Warriors would give the people principles or rules to follow to make their path right with the world. These principles would be those of the Ancient Tribes. The Warriors of the Rainbow would teach the people of the ancient practices of Unity, Love and Understanding. They would teach of Harmony among people in all four comers of the Earth.

Like the Ancient Tribes, they would teach the peoples how to pray to the Great Spirit with love that flows like the beautiful mountain stream, and flows along the path to the ocean of life. Once again, they would be able to feel joy in solitude and in councils. They would be free of petty jealousies and love all mankind as their brothers, regardless of color, race or religion. They would feel happiness enter their hearts, and become as one with the entire human race. Their hearts would be pure and radiate warmth, understanding and respect for all mankind, Nature, and the Great Spirit. They would once again fill their minds, hearts, souls, and deeds with the purest of thoughts. They would seek the beauty of the Master of Life - the Great Spirit! They would find strength and beauty in prayer and the solitudes of life.

Their children would once again be able to run free and enjoy the treasures of Nature and Mother Earth. Free from the fears of toxins and destruction, wrought by the Yo-ne-gi and his practices of greed. The rivers would again run clear, the forests be abundant and beautiful, the animals and birds would be replenished. The powers of the plants and animals would again be respected and conservation of all that is beautiful would become a way of life.

The poor, sick and needy would be cared for by their brothers and sisters of the Earth. These practices would again become a part of their daily lives.

The leaders of the people would be chosen in the old way - not by their political party, or who could speak the loudest, boast the most, or by name calling or mud slinging, but by those whose actions spoke the loudest. Those who demonstrated their love, wisdom, and courage and those who showed that they could and did work for the good of all, would be chosen as the leaders or Chiefs. They would be chosen by their "quality" and not the amount of money they had obtained. Like the thoughtful and devoted "Ancient Chiefs", they would understand the people with love, and see that their young were educated with the love and wisdom of their surroundings. They would show them that miracles can be accomplished to heal this world of its ills, and restore it to health and beauty.

The tasks of these "Warriors of the Rainbow" are many and great. There will be terrifying mountains of ignorance to conquer and they shall find prejudice and hatred. They must be dedicated, unwavering in their strength, and strong of heart. They will find willing hearts and minds that will follow them on this road of returning "Mother Earth" to beauty and plenty - once more.

The day will come, it is not far away. The day that we shall see how we owe our very existence to the people of all tribes that have maintained their culture and heritage. Those that have kept the rituals, stories, legends, and myths alive. It will be with this knowledge, the knowledge that they have preserved, that we shall once again return to "harmony" with Nature, Mother Earth, and mankind. It will be with this knowledge that we shall find our "Key to our Survival".

This is the story of the "Warriors of the Rainbow" and this is my reason for protecting the culture, heritage, and knowledge of my ancestors. I know that the day "Eyes of Fire" spoke of - will come! I want my children and grandchildren to be prepared to accept this task.The task of being one of the........"Warriors of the Rainbow".

Tonight's experience Jan. 24th 2009

As my beloved Wing Walker and I were driving about not going anywhere in particular, just driving and drinking a coffee and chatting, we do that every now and again just to get out of the house. Anyway we were driving past bush area of the road, it was dusk and begining to get dark out. I could make out faint trace of an aura field around the trees, like a thin layer of cigarette smoke tracing the outline of the trees.

Suddenly I had this feeling going through me like a tingly feeling throughout my entire body then I was like inside the bushes and the trees feeling their life inside of them like it was my own. I could actually feel myself move from one plant or tree to another like my consciousness had turned into the wind blowing from one form of vegetation to another. I have never experienced anything that real before, it was like exhilarating or intoxicating in effect. I have no idea how long I was out there, it was Wing Walker's voice which sounded distant at first, then I snapped out of it and turned to her to hear what she was saying.

Ok now every one laugh your butts off and get it over with, I suppose at my age I really don't give much of a crap about non believers and what they think.

Cindy   

You're right about one thing.  The world is becoming polluted as hell (physically and socially) and it's going to take some divine knowledge to fix it.  Whether it's power rangers or what have you, or God Almighty himself, I don't know.

But I am certain that the human race in general isn't going to be able to dig itself out of the hole it is in.  They can't even balance their budgets or stimulate the economy, for crying out loud.

If only the ancient wisdom would gain popularity, that would be the day.  I would be going like this:   :icon_joy:

It can only spread one at a time and unfortunately there are many out there who do not want peace so that they can continue to pillage, kill, rob, mislead and confuse so that they can continue to rule and keep the budgets unbalanced, someone is making money out of doing that, the same as that senseless war *Iraq* and the one who initiated it.

Even the Divine will not interfere in the affairs of man, but he/she does work through each and every one of us. All we need do is to sit and still the mind and listen to the little voice which comes from the innerself.

This system is dying, not the world. The only way to salvation is to awaken and to become conscious of what is occurring around us and join hand psychically over the metaphysical grid and send loving light an healing energy.

Cindy     

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Post Merge: January 27, 2009, 12:41:48 AM

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                                  Star Warrior Society

Eight pointed star, shining bright in the sky. Guiding those on a sacred quest. A star that shines so bright in the sky. A beacon of hope in dark times. Many years ago a baby was born, under a bright star.

We are made of stardust. Many talk about the star nations above, the home of our ancestors.

Perhaps there are alien races out there in the universe who knows? The sacred geometry of the universe is life. When we talk about science and the spiritual many believe these two cannot co-exist. I believe that they both can. We are spiritual beings living in a physical world.

Science is the effort to prove fact, spiritual you have to believe. Faith? Faith is believing in something even if you do have have proof. We may not have proof that there is a Great Spirit. But how can we exist without a creator? Who created us? Many world religions discuss this. To be honest with you I really do not know. The great mystery is just that, a mystery.

Let us be a shining star, set a good example for others and protect and defend the religious freedoms of others.

This place is for friends to share, no matter what faith they are from. Bring your stories, some coffee and tea and let us talk about heavy topics and light topics and make new friends.

Cindy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKVRW5L50TA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKVRW5L50TA&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7cylfQtkDg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7cylfQtkDg&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG76lZoLmVc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG76lZoLmVc)

Hi Loving_kindness, thank you so much for your contribution of YouTube videos, especially the first one, but all were good and all had a powerful message. Below was one of my own compositions that I posted here before, but for all the result I got for my efforts was just another empty hall with the only sound that could be heard was crickets and the sighing wind coming through the door that was left partly ajar when the last member of the audience left. Cindy strums one vibrating note on her guitar then puts it away in its case.

Spirit the essence of all that is.


Spirit is the fabric of creation from all the way back from original thought, or the word was spoken in the ether of creation, as Albert Einstein has once proposed as the creation of this reality.

Now you may say, there is a perplexing conundrum, I think this conception is as varied as each human being who perceives it. This truth in this reality is about as multifarious as the *unified theory* which is supposed to be the mathematical equation for all things in its reality.

*A unified theory* that can be congruent to each individual who perceives this truth as their own? I believe that this unified theory may work well in the form of a mathematical equation, but not so well when it comes to the rational/irrational multifaceted psychological process of the human mind. A truth contained within a reality which is as numerous in perception in itself as is the nature of those who perceive and propose it.

All we can hope for in a lifetime is to piece together bits and pieces of this jig saw puzzle which in itself is only one piece of another very large jig saw puzzle. Again those bits will differ greatly in perception from one individual to another of those who are considering this concept.

My own take on this is that this reality is not really what it appears to be, in the sense of being solid or composed only of perceptible substance to the human senses. In actuality it is composed of different densities of energetic light vibrations that are in essence part of a vast, possibly infinite, grid work or matrix that make up this holographic universe, or multiverses, a very well designed hologram.

As for the Spirit or the fabric of creation, the Spirit is the metaphysical grid upon which all of creation is connected to as one, including us, and all other living things as well as the inanimate. If one really believed and wanted to, one can telepathically send thought over the metaphysical grid to connect with the One or Great Spirit.

How would one say that any *Light beings* a-k-a highly evolved energy beings or emissaries of the Oneness within infinity want to contact us? Why would these superior intelligent spirit energy beings find it necessary to utilize a method of communications that would be the most effective without even physical contact? Why would they find it necessary to communicate with us using our complex, archaic, languages in this world, when all they need do is send their thoughts to us telepathically? As evolved as they would be to the point where they could be here from billions of miles away in the blink of an eye in energy form, why not send their thoughts telepathically to connect with our own thought processes so that to us it would appear that these thoughts were processed by our own mind? I have had these thoughts many times and have named it my *little voice.*

I also agree strongly that we do not know much of what's out there past this planet's atmosphere. Do we know much of our own elements in our outer atmosphere, let alone what's outside or beyond in the vacuum we call outer space?

We derive most if not all of our knowledge from books and other documentations or an electronic device we call a computer. Oh but yes, by all means do indulge in the learning, they are the stepping stones to learning that will lead you to the ****doorway*** but that is as far as the books get you. One needs to step through the doorway without any physical aid from this reality as we know it if one wishes to learn more of the great mysteries of mysteries.

This is the beginning of the rest of our journey to truth and reality. You will find that the rest of the journey is within the inner-self. If you really desire to look deep within to find the answers which cannot be seen or touched in this finite reality, beyond is infinity, and outer or quantum substances undetectable and beyond this one. It is the Oneness of Creation, the *thought* of creation in which we participate as one within this Oneness.

All that "infinity" means "is beyond where time and space exist."

Cindy

Sorry I didn't read all the pages here, just the first one and skimmed the rest- but the way I understand it, the world and everything in it is made out of magic. (Does anyone truly comprehend quantum physics?) I think many people have an incomplete idea of what magic is because of how it is viewed and portrayed in western society, TV, movies, etc. The truth is, waking up every day is Magic. A puppy snoring is Magic. I can say from personal experience that by magic we can truly obtain the desires of our hearts, when those desires are in harmony with God, Goddess, our own higher selves, or whatever source you believe in. Otherwise it simply backfires and we learn a much needed lesson along our journey. It goes without saying that people who try to engage in hurtful magic only ultimately end up hurting themselves.

A true "magician" then does not need to pull a rabbit out of a hat. If he/she desired rabbits,  then he/she would focus this intent and soon find his/her backyard overrun with them (this really works, lol)  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fsmilie%2Ftiere%2Fc020.gif&hash=2daa21025cf895f521e523585daf06275e7fedee)

So we see the results of magic appear to us from ordinary places... and how else would it work? In my experience true magic is not something you do, it is something you are. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faeriewylde.com%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fwizz2.gif&hash=542510b65d70a043fa73aec14798bc26fe5e7380)

Anyone can manifest their own magic, depending on how open minded, persevering, and how much faith they have in actually affecting a change in a chain of events in the present that will lead to the end result at some time in the future. The future is not written in stone any more then any prophecies which will come to pass if no one bothers to try to change the chain of events that will lead to it.

Just the same as one can not heal another if the participant does not believe in the healing energy being channeled to them. You may as well try to heal a rock, may get better results.  ;)

The previous post I composed prior to yours must have been typed out during the wee hours of the morning or with my toes with my shoes still on. Late nights is not uncommon for me to do, then forget to recheck before hitting the send button.

Anyway it may be more coherent now that I have corrected the typo's, spelling errors and skipped words.

Cindy