Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've always known I've been more female than male and any online tests I've tried have called me a girl  in most traits I'm very female or fairly netural being as there is a certain amount of male and that just confuses me

what traits are strong in you that you consider an androgyne trait
my traits that i don't consider male or female are do you consider any of these as andro traits? ??? ?

accepting
open
understanding

envy/jelliousy
easily confused
being unable to fit in with others  :'(
longing for friendships

All the positive traits of both men and women are androgynous traits, beneficial to any human being. They are commonly known as virtues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtues#Virtues_and_values

Some negative traits are gender specific, considered to be more 'forgivable' in one sex but not the other. The rest are simply bad for any human being to possess.

Who or what do you envy, Kikly?

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

I tried asking this before but it seemed peeps didn't like the idea of cataloguing traits into masculine vs feminine.
I tend to think in a binary way.

This is a genuinely interesting topic.

Quote from: Nero on May 08, 2008, 04:53:20 PM
peeps didn't like the idea of cataloguing traits into masculine vs feminine.

I think maybe one of the stronger traits that an androgyne might possess would be the inability to categorise traits as masculine or feminine.  I mean, my response is "why?"  Why would you do that?  I've been like that since infancy.  (What, you can't have lady firefighters?  Getouttatown.  Damn, these grownup people are weird!)

Personally, I find that if I really rack my brains I can identify some traits and abilities that I box as "male" or "female"... but they don't correspond to the filing system the rest of society uses.  My scientific/engineering bent goes under Female (the Boffin with her hair in a bun, the Engineer with her dungarees and doo-rag, both identifiably womanly).  My magic goes under Androgyne--when it's supposed to be female--and *my* brand of magic certainly gets filed under "Men's magic" when to me it's androgynous.  My art belongs to my andro side, but that's supposed to be female too.  And I am completely open to the fact that other people might file different aspects of their lives in different gender sets.

One of the Gordian knots of my being is the fact that identifying as "female" is so achingly painful, but why?  When I don't identify any of the specifics of my selfhood as gendered, why does it matter which way my shirts button?  Why, when I finally stood up and said "I am a 3rd-gendered person, I am an androgyne," did such a weight lift from my shoulders?


Posted on: May 08, 2008, 05:29:04 PM

---

...and why do I sound like such an egregious ponce when I talk about this stuff?  ;)

Quote from: Lokaeign on May 08, 2008, 05:36:50 PM

I think maybe one of the stronger traits that an androgyne might possess would be the inability to categorise traits as masculine or feminine.  I mean, my response is "why?"  Why would you do that?  I've been like that since infancy.  (What, you can't have lady firefighters?  Getouttatown.  Damn, these grownup people are weird!)

I also have a hard time categorizing traits as being gendered... they're just personality traits to me, any person could act this or that way. It's always annoyed me how the same trait is judged differently in men and women. If a man is assertive and speaks up for himself he's considered strong, it shows leadership, if a woman is assertive, well we know the negative responses that gets. Ridiculous!

Zythyra

I have trouble genderising parts of myself.. I try but it seems to be a random choice and changes all the time.
However I think there are androgyne traits (as I said elsewhere) which I think include a tendency to listen to multiple view points, a tendency to look at issues side on, a tendency to digress, and a tendency to go with intuition over logic - but that may all be me.

FWIW, while googling gender traits, I found some Christian Bible study <http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2311/Feminine-Characteristics-God.htm> which had the following paragraphs I submit for discussion:

"God has characteristics (revealed throughout Scripture) that are considered to be masculine and feminine. Our own bodies mirror this. Human reproductive glands, for example, manufacture both male and female hormones. Women's ovaries produce small, but significant amounts of androgen (a male hormone). Likewise, men's testicular canals produce not only testosterone, but also a small but significant amount of estrogen (female hormones). God has also designed the human anatomy so that both sexes have vestigial equipment of the opposite sex. No one is 100% male or 100% female—not even the most muscular man or the curviest woman can claim this distinction."

....

"Part of this process—incredible as it sounds—involves the male incorporating Godlike feminine (not effeminate) characteristics such as tenderness, mercy, and patience. Similarly, the female needs to learn or adopt masculine (not tomboy or butch) characteristics such as strength, assertiveness, and decisiveness. If we make a thorough search of the Scripture, we would find the masculine and feminine traits of God equally distributed.... We see ample and abundant masculine traits in the Bible: strength, power, decisiveness, aggressiveness, provider, ruler, and leader. Feminine traits are also abundant: beauty, grace, mercy, tenderness, caring, and affectionate. In order to qualify as members of God's Family, both men and women need to incorporate all these characteristics into their personalities."

Me? Beautiful and graceful? I'm ready,
S

Posted on: May 09, 2008, 04:05:18 PM

---

Come to think of it, I need to work on those masculine traits, too, eg: aggressiveness, provider,
and leader.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 09, 2008, 04:09:49 PM
"Part of this process—incredible as it sounds—involves the male incorporating Godlike feminine (not effeminate) characteristics such as tenderness, mercy, and patience. Similarly, the female needs to learn or adopt masculine (not tomboy or butch) characteristics such as strength, assertiveness, and decisiveness. If we make a thorough search of the Scripture, we would find the masculine and feminine traits of God equally distributed....

Male and female, S/He created them in hir own image. I've always believed the old testament G-d to be multigendered.

QuoteMe? Beautiful and graceful? I'm ready,

You're already there  :)

Z

Quote from: Emerald on May 08, 2008, 09:03:24 AM

Who or what do you envy, Kikly?

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

I feel envy when ever I see people together who obviously love each other very much - I totally want that :'(  especialy in couples who have overcome a lot and are younger than me


God is both Male & Female
and I know I'm made in the image of s/he/it god.

I'm wondering if I'm female enough to be comfortable in a world accepted female body or if i change to a "what the" state (very fem looking + beard) which i think is what my true image should be,  Will i ever be acceped by the "real world"? ??? & will i ever find someone who will love me

I'm hoping to work out how much fem/andro/male I am to see if i will ever fit in

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 08, 2008, 08:15:02 PM
I have trouble genderising parts of myself.. I try but it seems to be a random choice and changes all the time.
However I think there are androgyne traits (as I said elsewhere) which I think include a tendency to listen to multiple view points, a tendency to look at issues side on, a tendency to digress, and a tendency to go with intuition over logic - but that may all be me.

100% agree :D But then..I always agree with you pica :O

Flattering aside, I too have trouble categorizing my traits as belonging to one gender or another. Sure, I -could- categorize them, but I don't want to because it makes no sense to me.

if you agree with me then you are immediately wrong :)

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 11, 2008, 05:09:07 AM
if you agree with me then you are immediately wrong :)

that's for damn sure.  :)

My soul is female
my miserable body is male
my intelligence is Null Gendered
my emotions are feminine
My sexual preference has no preference
My clothing is male
my romantic preference is female (as a female and for other females)

I don't think there are any traits that could be said to be only possesed by one gender. But there are traits which seem to have gender value applied to it by society. Kind of like Emerald said - some traits are more forgivable in one sex and not the other, the trait is valued as a trait of one gender more than another.

Now I see this value as a function of society - it might be based on biology but for the most part society decides on how it puts value on traits.

Now because androgynes are largely unknown I don't think we can list androgyne traits because society has not added that gender vlaue to any traits. I do believe there are some universal traits that are valued or unvalued by everyone but I don't think this makes them 'androgyne' traits. I don't think we have androgyne traits at all, we only have human traits.

Now I do think we have traits in common as androgynes but I don't think this makes them androgyne traits - more like these traits are the traits androgynes commonly have...

Hope this makes sense.


Posted on: May 11, 2008, 04:00:19 PM

---

In the style of Rebis:
My soul is feminin
My miserable body is mighty fine even if this male bod does not match my soul
My intelligence is geek
My emotions are human (but my emotional reactions are a mix, though often learnt male)
My sexual preference is for women
My romantic preference is to be treated as a woman

In the style of Rebis also...

My miserable body is male, and it fits my soul oddly but properly, and I like it well enough.
My intelligence is male
My emotions are female and usually win over my intelligence
My sexual preference is for women, who would treat my male figure as their woman
My romantic preference is to be treated as a woman

My soul is ... is... I dunno. A bit of both, none, whatever.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 11, 2008, 05:09:07 AM
if you agree with me then you are immediately wrong :)

Would rather be wrong than right then :P

My soul is mostly Fem
Body is ugly male
My intelligence is nerdy/geeky male
my emotions are mostly female
my emotional response is mixed (laugh, cry, or hide feelings)
my Humor is warped
I'm attracted to females that are less fem then me
I'm not interested is sex without Love (is that a fem trait?)
I believe in an all Loving multi gendered God
I want to be a dad

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 11, 2008, 06:45:04 PM
My sexual preference is for women, who would treat my male figure as their woman

Good luck with that.  Best be saving up for a *meow* then. Just keeping it real, ginger.

I'm just gonna jump on the bandwagon and do what everyone else is doing cause I've never thought about it before...

-My soul is...I really do not know..???
-My body is female, of which I'm usually happy with (but there are those days..)
-My intelligence is...another thing I'm unsure with, except that my rational mind conflicts a lot with my 'heart' , but I try to make decisions based on rationality, because it's usually better and doesn't get me in trouble even if it rips me up emotionally.
-My emotions are just..human I guess? I guess I could just be simple about it and say they're mixed.
-My sexual preference is all over the map, aka I have found attraction in just about any sex or gender, but I prefer male or someone that looks male.
-My clothing preference is mixed, ranging between male-type clothes, female type clothes aka very pretty, swishy things, and neutral type clothes.
-Romantic preference..I don't know, I've only ever had the opportunity to love males. I have loved females but only as friends.

My body is male
My reasoning is somewhere between male and female. I tend to see all sides of a situation.
My soul is probably split between male and female. Sometimes I yearn for what I see that GG's have just by being born a GG that I can never have as a male. But sometimes it is good to be a male.
My emotions are 50% male + 50% female.
I firmly believe that my physical presence and my personality transmits "female" to the alpha males I have to be around. I'm not for sure "what" it is, but it has happened enough to make be believe it.
My sexual preference is to make love to a female like a lesbian. My wife has not yet figured this out but she likes it. But yet I can see the eroticism in non traditional sexual roles as well. I have no interest in exploring these roles.
Clothing? i've played around with feminine clothes and it seems not for me at this time.
Romantic - i'm a female here. romantic stuff is fun and i've pulled off some hugely romantic/erotic nights with my wife.

Let's see.

My soul is mostly female, I think.
My body isn't all that miserable, even though it is way too male.
My intelligence is mostly of the ivory tower variety, with a smattering of common sense and fix-kids'-bikes kind of technical aptitude thrown in.
My emotions have just started to show again, having been repressed way too long.
My sexual preference is for any combination where there's a woman involved.
My clothing passes as male.
My romantic preference is female.

Now, what's here that makes me androgyne? Being able to live with the first two points, perhaps.

  Nfr

My soul is neither male nor female
my body is female
my intelligence is both male and female
my emotions are mostly female
my emotional response is male (try to hide it)
My sexual preference for women
My clothing is male
my romantic preference is to be treated as a male, mostly.

As for masculine and/or feminine traits, I don't really believe in that. I respect anyone with the strength to stand their ground, male or female. I get irritated by arrogance, whether it comes for a man or a woman (or an androgyne).


Cheers,
PolarBear

Quote from: PolarBear on May 12, 2008, 07:26:13 AM
my emotions are mostly female
my emotional response is male (try to hide it)


Cheers,
PolarBear

Interesting distinction between emotions and emotional response.

I feel really stupid trying to fill out Rebis' list; I can't write out a simple list. The very first term, soul, I have great difficulty defining, so please bear with me.

Soul (using the definition--"a person's moral or emotional nature or sense of identity"): my moral soul embodies justice tempered with large doses of compassion and a strong desire that those I come in contact with be well-fed and allowed to work out their own destiny. Emotions are covered under another head. My identity hasn't changed since I was twelve. I am unsophisticated (and uncomfortable in the presence of sophistication).

Body: My body is that of an adult male. It continually surprises me. I get bruises because I think it is smaller than it is. I am amazed and delighted to be able to do my job at UPS (kinda like the hero of Big). I have learned to let my body function sexually and to enjoy the result.

Intelligence: For me, intelligence is another name for intuition. I know an answer is right; then, I have to struggle to figure out why it is right. Often, I come up with answers without taking into account societally accepted answers. For instance, when I got my first wrist watch, I tried it out on both wrists, and decided wearing it on the right wrist made more sense--never noticing that the rest of the world wore them on the left.

Emotions: Whether through nature or conscious aim, my emotions are muted. Good news excites me slightly; bad news upsets me slightly. I cry over chick flicks, but not in real life. Some people say I smile a lot; from time to time, my wife is sure that I am depressed or, perhaps, demented, or hard of hearing.

Sexual preference: I prefer strong, intelligent women who neither wear makeup nor pierce their body. I prefer to be with a friend who is a girl.

Romantic preference: I am a romantic, in the sense: "idealist, sentimentalist, romanticist; dreamer, visionary, Utopian, Don Quixote, fantasist, fantasizer". I am uncomfortable with such things as a romantic candlelit dinner, lingerie, or jewelry.

I leave the decision as to which traits are identified with which gender, if any, to the reader.

S

Quote from: Nero on May 11, 2008, 09:48:44 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 11, 2008, 06:45:04 PM
My sexual preference is for women, who would treat my male figure as their woman

Good luck with that.  Best be saving up for a *meow* then. Just keeping it real, ginger.

No, best just find the right woman


And Simone, you sound lovelier each time you type.

like i said, good luck with that. you want a woman who wants a woman. newsflash - lesbians like pussy.
and any straight girl is going to want you to be a man.

i'm looking for a woman who wants to play the masculine role, not quite the same thing

no straight woman is going to want a 'woman' in the bedroom. and you sure as hell ain't gonna get no dyke.

so its all a bit knotted and confused, many things are

i'm just keeping it real with you. time for you to live in the real world, not your little androgyne utopia.

why? doesn't seem to cause anything but pain to anyone else. I'm quite happy in my bubble and while I've been their I always have been.

sure just don't expect others to share it.

OK, I'll try.

I don't believe that souls have genders, so my soul is non gendered. That said, I feel more female or androgynous than male.

my body is male :( I'd prefer having female secondary characteristics but am dealing the best I can with what I got.

my intelligence is a bit geeky/brainy. I like to read, have a deep understanding of music theory. I can be somewhat analytical at times. I'm also very intuitive, and when improvising music, am more in tune with that side than the analytical. I have a witty sense of humor, and pun often.

I believe that to experience great joy, one needs to be able to also experience sadness and pain. I've often been better at feeling sadness and depression in certain periods of my life. My emotions aren't gendered, they're simply a wide range of emotions that all humans feel.

my sexual preference is for my partner :) I have had both wonderful relationships and crappy ones with people of any gender. With few exceptions, I am friends with most of my ex lovers.

My clothing is a mixture of male and female... sometimes more male because of work, would much prefer the other way around.

My romantic preference tends toward other androgynous people, there's just something beautiful about people who express the full gender spectrum. So I get along particularly well with masculine females or feminine males.

Zythyra

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 12, 2008, 06:59:13 PM

Quote from: Nero on May 11, 2008, 09:48:44 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 11, 2008, 06:45:04 PM
My sexual preference is for women, who would treat my male figure as their woman

Good luck with that.  Best be saving up for a *meow* then. Just keeping it real, ginger.

No, best just find the right woman


And Simone, you sound lovelier each time you type.

Ah yes, the lovely and talented Simone, blushing demurely, thanks you for noticing.

I believe you stand a good chance of finding the right woman. Let's see, if you were looking for that one-in-a-million woman, in a population of one billion you'd find a thousand of them. You're just looking for an androgynous woman (whether or not she self-identifies as such). Or rather, you just want to be open and available to be found and courted by one of those thousand women. We've talked about an androgynous dating service, but you don't need one. You just need to believe in your dreams and live your life that way. That's not pollyanna-ish. You will fail, and the world will beat you up--happens to most everyone. Still, as those loyal to the Red Sox Nation say, Believe!

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 12, 2008, 09:07:00 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 12, 2008, 06:59:13 PM

Quote from: Nero on May 11, 2008, 09:48:44 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 11, 2008, 06:45:04 PM
My sexual preference is for women, who would treat my male figure as their woman

Good luck with that.  Best be saving up for a *meow* then. Just keeping it real, ginger.

No, best just find the right woman


And Simone, you sound lovelier each time you type.

Ah yes, the lovely and talented Simone, blushing demurely, thanks you for noticing.

I believe you stand a good chance of finding the right woman. Let's see, if you were looking for that one-in-a-million woman, in a population of one billion you'd find a thousand of them. You're just looking for an androgynous woman (whether or not she self-identifies as such). Or rather, you just want to be open and available to be found and courted by one of those thousand women. We've talked about an androgynous dating service, but you don't need one. You just need to believe in your dreams and live your life that way. That's not pollyanna-ish. You will fail, and the world will beat you up--happens to most everyone. Still, as those loyal to the Red Sox Nation say, Believe!

S

And I want to rule the world, doesn't mean it's going to happen. And I want to win the lottery, so I'll waste my time dreaming it's going to happen when I have a one in a billion chance.

I learned a long time ago that we do a grave disservice when we don't keep it real with our friends. Sometimes all the citizens of Bubble World need is a little pinprick.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 12, 2008, 07:03:19 PM
i'm looking for a woman who wants to play the masculine role, not quite the same thing

I've always been attracted to strong independent women, even from long before I was aware of my androgyne nature. And these women always seemed to appreciate my non-male attributes. I believe there's the right someone out there for everyone.

You'll find hir Pica!

Z

Quote from: Nero on May 12, 2008, 07:06:49 PM
no straight woman is going to want a 'woman' in the bedroom. and you sure as hell ain't gonna get no dyke.

Straight is a relative term, especially in this case. He is still male bodied, therefore it would be considered a straight relationship. More than that, there are so many fetishes in the world, I don't think you can honestly say that. Would it be a strange relationship, maybe, but for some it may be their dream (a bi woman's dream? best of both?)

There is someone out there into anything you can think of. Will Pica find that person, who knows. Maybe that person does not even know that is what they want, or maybe they will find they like it.

If there is one thing I have learned on the internet, when it comes to sex, ANYTHING goes.
I don't think what Pica is after is impossible to find.

I am with Z, some women like those traits.




Actually Nero, I'm surprised/disapointed at your response to this. Non-op and post-op TS seem to find people of straight and gay persuasions, I don't see how this would be any different really. Peoples sexuality is not all black and white.

I'm a female-bodied person who's played girly dress-up games and games where a male-bodied and generally male-identified person is in a female role.  It's admittedly not a particular fetish of mine, but I've had some fun times that way...

The traits I look for in a male, very masculine looking, tall and totally secure within himself.
Now on the other hand, I like very feminine looking women, but with masculine type of personalities too. 
Basically I like strong people I suppose, secure, know what they want types who don't play mind games. 
I'd say I'm attracted to these types because I am basically insecure and don't know what I want, lol.
I'm trying to fill a void.  Its so hard to really click though with someone, and at the same time. 
As insecure as I am, I still don't like being put in a cage, I've been there too many times before and its not worth it, so I'll just have to sit it out and wait for the 'right' one to come along....if ever.  ::)   :-\


To answer the question, 'gender traits whats male/female/androgyne about you?'

I am still very androgynous looking, but more tipped to female, so I'm safe *phew*, I have many female characteristics as I've been told and observed in myself, but there are still some male tendencies that I have not discarded.  I like to choose my partners and not be chosen, I'm not clingy and can be quite cut and dry within relationships.  I'm probably a better friend than lover. I'm the best damn girlfriend anyone could ask for, lol.  :P

Quote from: Rebis on May 12, 2008, 11:53:38 AM

Quote from: PolarBear on May 12, 2008, 07:26:13 AM
my emotions are mostly female
my emotional response is male (try to hide it)


Cheers,
PolarBear

Interesting distinction between emotions and emotional response.

Well, I got the "emotional response" idea from Kikly. Which I found a very good idea, since emotions are really not the same as how you deal with them.
Yeah, I can get very emotional over the smallest things, but can only express those emotions when I am alone or with a select few people.

I want to be the ruler of bubble world at which time I will declare war upon the real world.

As you can see by my avatar, I am having a difficult time inside my bubble.



[I'm being tongue in cheek. People sometimes take me too seriously lately]

Quote from: Rebis on May 13, 2008, 07:49:45 AM
[I'm being tongue in cheek. People sometimes take me too seriously lately]

I solemnly swear that I will never take you seriously, Reb!  :laugh:


Hmm.  Let's see if I can do this, now that I'm feeling chatty again.

My body is female and has a very fat ass. *sigh*  but working out is stupid. :D
My soul is BOY.  NOT man.  BOY.  If I had my choice, I'd be a very emotional boy.  But I've never had any desire to be a man.
My intelligence is a mix of male/female, as far as brain sex goes.  I'm both creative and good at math.  I majored in a social science, but I love chemistry.  big mix.  and I'm a total geek.
I prefer men (or male bodied people, rather) for partners.  I have trust issues with women.  Befriended one too many psychos.
My clothing can go from masculine to feminine, but I don't feel masculine or feminine in them.  I like skirts because they are more comfortable than dress pants (and they are cool in the summer...I hate shorts).  I prefer jeans and a hoodie.
My mannerisms and speech patterns are more aligned with male, but it's more like an effeminate male.
Romantically, I need someone just like me, but with different bits. :D