Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm rather confused and scared.
I'm an androgyne - both male & female sometimes neither
why can't my body be as mixed as my mind?
I strongly dislike parts of my male body
I'd feel more comfortable in a body with a mix of parts
breasts and beard is my strongest want
Is there any one who can tell me of there journey toward this?
I've been told that it could be quite damaging emotionally because of the way other people will react to me
If i were to go through with it
thanks in advance

Well, when all's said and done - I'll have a mixed body. After I chop my tits off and keep my cat.
It's not that I would've chosen it that way, it's just going to be the result.

There's surely a way to achieve you want. If you're on estrogen, just don't get electrolysis.

yes Nero I know thats how to do that. I'd Like to know what emotional issues ect.

Quote from: Kinkly on May 18, 2008, 08:45:00 PM
breasts and beard is my strongest want
Is there any one who can tell me of there journey toward this?
I've been told that it could be quite damaging emotionally because of the way other people will react to me
If i were to go through with it
thanks in advance

I've encountered someone online who has breasts and a beard, you wouldn't be the first.  I am in the opposite position, ridding my body of primary and secondary sexual characteristics.  I haven't had any issues yet but I live in a fairly accepting place and don't stand out as much as some.  You'd certainly need to be strong enough to deal with people's reactions towards you.  I guess if it's a viable path depends on the sort of person you are (or the sort of person you could become).  Finding the strength to present in a gender variant manner took me some time...

I don't think you'll find many people here who have followed a path like that.  Browsing youtube for videos on genderqueer (and maybe androgyne) issues would probably give you some useful insight. 

sorry, Kink.

I got no answer for you.  I wish I could help.  If I see anything, I'll report back to you.

When did you get an okay to put the 'N' back in your name?  It looks better.



Rebis

Quote from: Kinkly on May 18, 2008, 08:45:00 PM
I'd feel more comfortable in a body with a mix of parts
breasts and beard is my strongest want

Many years ago I had a dream in which I saw my body as a mix of female (breasts, curves and long hair) and male (still had penis). This dream was a profound vision of who I am, both/neither. I haven't taken HRT though, due to concerns about long term negative effects. But that's what I'd have to do to have the multi-gendered body I envision... and sometimes I think it'd be nice to have a beard again too...

What keeps me from proceeding with this? Fear I suppose, the difficulty of being perceived as mixed gender in a transphobic world...

Zythyra

What size breasts do you want? I, like one other who frequents this forum, have experienced breast growth from taking finasteride (which I've been taking since November). Mine look like the illustrations of Stage II on other sites. There has also be fat deposited where the buttocks and thigh meet. At some point, I'd like to see the effect of an A cup bra. I have found people see what they expect to see. I've had several doctors and x-ray technicians examine me and say nothing (While examining me with a stethoscope, one doctor brushed against my nipple, and I almost asked him to do it again). Though I see nipples showing through a T-shirt, again no one else has noticed. But I have watched these things change and develop over time. And I feel their presence when I reach for something across my body. There has been no ache as described by others taking hormones. According to what I read online, only one in two hundred reports breast growth during the first year of taking finasteride. Perhaps other anti-androgens work more reliably.

The best feature of my buds is how the nipples feel when touched. Now, my wife and I can caress each others breasts simultaneously. As to that I will only say Wow! It's begun to cut into my sleep time.

S

Quote from: Rebis on May 19, 2008, 01:17:28 PM
sorry, Kink.

I got no answer for you.  I wish I could help.  If I see anything, I'll report back to you.

When did you get an okay to put the 'N' back in your name?  It looks better.



Rebis

a little while ago I asked for someone to change my group to androgyne
when this was done something strange happened and i was put in the admin group
I messaged susan to get taken off admin next thing i new my name had changed she must have seen that her perceived idea of my name was different to mine. ;D
and the name is kinkly not kink

Quote from: Kinkly on May 19, 2008, 05:27:37 PM
I messaged susan to get taken off admin next thing i new my name had changed she must have seen that her perceived idea of my name was different to mine. ;D

It's easy enough to change it in your profile if you want to.

Z

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 19, 2008, 03:56:15 PM
What size breasts do you want? I, like one other who frequents this forum, have experienced breast growth from taking finasteride (which I've been taking since November). Mine look like the illustrations of Stage II on other sites. There has also be fat deposited where the buttocks and thigh meet. At some point, I'd like to see the effect of an A cup bra. I have found people see what they expect to see. I've had several doctors and x-ray technicians examine me and say nothing (While examining me with a stethoscope, one doctor brushed against my nipple, and I almost asked him to do it again). Though I see nipples showing through a T-shirt, again no one else has noticed. But I have watched these things change and develop over time. And I feel their presence when I reach for something across my body. There has been no ache as described by others taking hormones. According to what I read online, only one in two hundred reports breast growth during the first year of taking finasteride. Perhaps other anti-androgens work more reliably.

The best feature of my buds is how the nipples feel when touched. Now, my wife and I can caress each others breasts simultaneously. As to that I will only say Wow! It's begun to cut into my sleep time.

S

Hi Simone,

   Are you taking only anti-androgens?  Today I heard that they should be accompanied by Estrogen because (if I got this right), they block the production of hormones and people need some hormones.  Maybe some of your natural ones are still being produced.
   I don't know.  I hear different views on that a lot.  I'm with Z at this point except that beyond worrying about the side effects, I'm worried about having yet another med on my list.


Rebis

Posted on: May 19, 2008, 07:42:35 PM

---

Quote from: Kinkly on May 19, 2008, 05:27:37 PM
and the name is kinkly not kink

Sorry.  I thought was funny.   

simone i don't realy know what size i want fairly small i think you mentioned yours were like something described o a website can i have a link

Quote from: Rebis on May 19, 2008, 07:44:47 PM

Sorry.  I thought was funny.   

thats okay Rebi

Posted on: 20-05-2008, 11:54:10

---

Quote from: Zythyra on May 19, 2008, 03:04:19 PM

Quote from: Kinkly on May 18, 2008, 08:45:00 PM
I'd feel more comfortable in a body with a mix of parts
breasts and beard is my strongest want

Many years ago I had a dream in which I saw my body as a mix of female (breasts, curves and long hair) and male (still had penis). This dream was a profound vision of who I am, both/neither. I haven't taken HRT though, due to concerns about long term negative effects. But that's what I'd have to do to have the multi-gendered body I envision... and sometimes I think it'd be nice to have a beard again too...

What keeps me from proceeding with this? Fear I suppose, the difficulty of being perceived as mixed gender in a transphobic world...

Zythyra

Thats where i'm at i realy want to do this but I'm scared about what others will do to me
and worried that if I do then I will reduce the likelyness that I will ever find a woman who will Love me as me

Quote from: Kinkly on May 20, 2008, 02:59:05 AM
Thats where i'm at i realy want to do this but I'm scared about what others will do to me
and worried that if I do then I will reduce the likelyness that I will ever find a woman who will Love me as me

Not much we can do about the hatemongers out there, but I assure you there are people out there who will love you for the wonderful person you are. My partner of the past dozen years knew all about my gender mishegos before we got together, and in fact sie enjoys the freedom our relationship gives hir to explore and be whatever gender sie likes.  ;D

Zythyra

Quote from: Rebis on May 19, 2008, 07:44:47 PM

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 19, 2008, 03:56:15 PM

   Are you taking only anti-androgens?  Today I heard that they should be accompanied by Estrogen because (if I got this right), they block the production of hormones and people need some hormones.  Maybe some of your natural ones are still being produced.
   I don't know.  I hear different views on that a lot.  I'm with Z at this point except that beyond worrying about the side effects, I'm worried about having yet another med on my list.

Sorry.  I thought was funny.   

Spiro is meant to be taken with estrogen, but as far as I've found finasteride and dutasteride should be safe to take alone. Finasteride is prescribed cosmetically.


If you buck social norms you will have reactions from people, that's how it goes. I personally find beards+femininity an incredibly jarring image, as do most people. Actually, the whole 'drag queen with obvious shadow' has been the cultural personification of transgendered people for a while now, heh. I feel incredibly self-conscious when I accidentally pass with people when I have stubble.

Obviously it's not really the place of any of us to tell anyone here how to live their life or their image, but certain things will definitely get reactions out of people. The other day my long nails and gemstone ring made a customer ask me if I was "trying to become a woman or something"; and I was even in full guy garb at the time. She was a nice, if incredibly odd lady, gave me some manicure tips, but it was definitely a bit of an off-guard moment. Actually, my ring, which is a very tasteful, demure setting, has caused more of a freaked out response from people than my clothes have, and it's rapidly approaching the reaction I get from my nails. Though mostly the nails are women going 'damnit, I'm jealous! no fair' and the ring is 'what the f---.' It's honestly surprising to me how much of a reaction the ring gets out of people, I didn't realize that "womens rings" were so exclusive.

Man in a dress, woman with a beard, guy with nails, men in certain colors, women with certain haircuts+secondary feature (short hair + glasses, or fat = androgyny), people are conditioned to react to things that are out of the norm. A lot of the conditioning is spitefulness. Some people are incredibly offended by actual androgynous features (which confuses me, but then people are hateful.) I don't really consider, say, breasts + beard androgynous myself, as men don't have breasts and women don't have beards*, yet they are defining characteristics. To me androgyny is a fine-grit blend. But that's just another side of the spectrum, really.


*I don't want to hear about it, I mean in normal circumstances.

Edit: I don't mean to come across as hateful or spiteful here, so my apologies if it sounded as such. I've been up all night and have a closing shift to look forward to. A lot of us know the feeling of being really confused. The readers of this board in particular frequently share your feelings of being split between man and woman. I myself feel either genderless or female, there's really nothing about my masculinity that I consider favorable, though I take advantage of the whole having a penis thing sometimes (work with what you have.) You really do have to do what makes you feel best for you, though temper it for ease and safety. Do note that hormones are a slippery slope and that if you begin them you probably won't want to pause or go back.

As for emotional damage, my above writings are kind of jaded. I've been feminizing my appearance and wearing androgynous womens' clothing for over a year now, I've accidentally passed plenty, been seen positively for it, been seen negatively for it, been complimented on my appearance (since I'm far better dressed than most men my age), confused the hell out of people, etc. I've had some moments of fear and shame. Nothing dangerous, thankfully, but I keep in mind there are things that I can and can't do.

Quote from: Rebis on May 19, 2008, 07:44:47 PM
Hi Simone,

   Are you taking only anti-androgens?  Today I heard that they should be accompanied by Estrogen because (if I got this right), they block the production of hormones and people need some hormones.  Maybe some of your natural ones are still being produced.
   I don't know.  I hear different views on that a lot.  I'm with Z at this point except that beyond worrying about the side effects, I'm worried about having yet another med on my list.


Rebis

Posted on: May 19, 2008, 07:42:35 PM

---

In my case, finasteride was prescribed to slow the growth of the prostate gland; it can also be prescribed to prevent hair loss from male pattern balding. In neither case is it prescribed with estrogen. It does not block the production of testosterone, but only its conversion to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The adrenal gland in a man produces a low level of estrogen. Normally, DHT interferes with the estrogen, so with less DHT, estrogen can cause breast growth.

S

Posted on: May 20, 2008, 09:18:29 AM

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Quote from: Kinkly on May 20, 2008, 02:59:05 AM
simone i don't realy know what size i want fairly small i think you mentioned yours were like something described o a website can i have a link

There are several links describing the stages of development; the one I had in mind is http://www.secondtype.com/breastdev.htm (http://www.secondtype.com/breastdev.htm).

S

Quote from: Autumn on May 20, 2008, 08:38:44 AM
I myself feel either genderless or female, there's really nothing about my masculinity that I consider favorable, though I take advantage of the whole having a penis thing sometimes (work with what you have.) You really do have to do what makes you feel best for you, though temper it for ease and safety.

How do you temper your penis?                :laugh:

Quote from: Rebis on May 20, 2008, 09:51:42 AM

Quote from: Autumn on May 20, 2008, 08:38:44 AM
I myself feel either genderless or female, there's really nothing about my masculinity that I consider favorable, though I take advantage of the whole having a penis thing sometimes (work with what you have.) You really do have to do what makes you feel best for you, though temper it for ease and safety.

How do you temper your penis?                :laugh:

with the end of a pencil

I'm not totally a man I'm not totally a woman So I think I must be Weird.
some of the less personal reasons for beard & breasts...
when i trim down my beard too short I can't look myself in mirror long enough to brush teeth,
the only time that my bare chest isn't painful for me to see is when I have visible man boobs (not very often)& whenever i put on a dress to feel more comfortable I wish "I filled it out" a bit more, most of my body I'm Okay with but I don't know how i would survive without the beard I don't mind people looking at me strange, I enjoy it actually.  I'd rather someone say is that I'm weird or a freak then be called unique or "an individual"
I know seeing me in a form that I will be more comfortable with would be hard for some people including my parents

is it possible that you feel that way without a beard because, without one, you don't look female?  Like, it's easier to look at yourself if you can't see a face that you're unhappy with?


Just asking.

Quote from: Rebis on May 20, 2008, 11:53:58 AM
is it possible that you feel that way without a beard because, without one, you don't look female?  Like, it's easier to look at yourself if you can't see a face that you're unhappy with?


Just asking.

that may be part of it but it is also the only part of my body that has ever had a complement and other things I'd rather not mention publicaly

 

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 20, 2008, 09:26:24 AM
In my case, finasteride was prescribed to slow the growth of the prostate gland; it can also be prescribed to prevent hair loss from male pattern balding. In neither case is it prescribed with estrogen. It does not block the production of testosterone, but only its conversion to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The adrenal gland in a man produces a low level of estrogen. Normally, DHT interferes with the estrogen, so with less DHT, estrogen can cause breast growth.

Also, since the testosterone isn't getting converted to DHT some of it becomes oestrogen instead. Which, of course, does what oestrogen does.  :)
In my case, in seven months and with an overall weight loss of a couple of kilogrammes, from nothing to 38A. Small enough to not raise any eyebrows in a locker room, but recently I tried a bra, and even a completely unpadded one does make a difference. It's easy to understand why some men get seriously freaked out by this.

Quote from: Rebis on May 20, 2008, 09:51:42 AM
How do you temper your penis?                :laugh:

By heating it red-hot and then dipping it in a bucket of cold water. Some of the more masculine and superstitious practitioners prefer to use a virgin instead of the water, claiming that this results in a better temper.

  Nfr

Quote from: Kinkly on May 20, 2008, 11:59:17 AM

Quote from: Rebis on May 20, 2008, 11:53:58 AM
is it possible that you feel that way without a beard because, without one, you don't look female?  Like, it's easier to look at yourself if you can't see a face that you're unhappy with?


Just asking.

that may be part of it but it is also the only part of my body that has ever had a complement and other things I'd rather not mention publicaly

You can't just say that.  Now I'm curious as hell.   :laugh:

Quote from: Seshatneferw on May 20, 2008, 12:14:55 PM

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 20, 2008, 09:26:24 AM
In my case, finasteride was prescribed to slow the growth of the prostate gland; it can also be prescribed to prevent hair loss from male pattern balding. In neither case is it prescribed with estrogen. It does not block the production of testosterone, but only its conversion to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The adrenal gland in a man produces a low level of estrogen. Normally, DHT interferes with the estrogen, so with less DHT, estrogen can cause breast growth.

Also, since the testosterone isn't getting converted to DHT some of it becomes oestrogen instead. Which, of course, does what oestrogen does.  :)
In my case, in seven months and with an overall weight loss of a couple of kilogrammes, from nothing to 38A. Small enough to not raise any eyebrows in a locker room, but recently I tried a bra, and even a completely unpadded one does make a difference. It's easy to understand why some men get seriously freaked out by this.

Quote from: Rebis on May 20, 2008, 09:51:42 AM
How do you temper your penis?                :laugh:

By heating it red-hot and then dipping it in a bucket of cold water. Some of the more masculine and superstitious practitioners prefer to use a virgin instead of the water, claiming that this results in a better temper.

  Nfr

:laugh: at the tempering technique.

I'm also on finasteride for hair loss and prostate. That + a few other non-prescription things I can't mention (TOS) has resulted in a couple of small mounds on my chest. Looking straight down provides a different vista than before. It's actually been kind of novel and fun. I don't have enough to show yet but what I have is quite obvious with my shirt off. Anyway, i'll take the boobs if it means more hair and a happier prostate, they really don't bother me any and I realize that some day I may have to wear baggier shirts or a sports bra.

Quote from: Kinkly on May 18, 2008, 08:45:00 PM
Is there any one who can tell me of there journey toward this?

See this article, very cool! https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,35534.msg236745.html#msg236745 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,35534.msg236745.html#msg236745)

Z

I have actually been thinking about this a lot, but I've come to accept that unless I win the lottery or something it's never going to happen.  I've thought about black-market hormones but I already have mood disturbances, major depressive disorder, and anger management issues so I don't dare go down that route for fear of what I'd be like on T.

I attempted to broach the topic of surgery with a doctor, back when I was 24, 25 (about 10 years ago).  I asked my GP about breast reduction (not even a mastectomy, just a reduction), and was turned down flat.  I pointed out that my proportions put me at risk of back problems later in life, and the doctor agreed that this was the case but still refused to talk any further about getting a reduction.  Just laughed and didn't respond to anything else I said (literally--she acted as if I'd left the room).   It was so disasterous I've never even mentioned my gender issues to a professional since. 

My only real hope as I see it is to gain enough muscle mass that I can tip my own body's hormone balance a little, and perhaps reduce my female characteristics.  But I'm having problems with that.  Maybe I don't want this as bad as I think I do...

Talking to a doctor should be better these days.

Hopefully.  Though when I told my GP, she kind of laughed until I explained I'm serious.

Quote from: Rebis on May 21, 2008, 11:36:43 AM
Talking to a doctor should be better these days.

I really hope so.  I'm going back to the UK in about 4 months' time, and I'm going to try and talk to a doctor again then.  After nearly three and a half decades I feel like I've given it a fair shot, you know?  I tried to be a good scout and just accept having a female body, believe that I could just wish all the feelings of pure *wrongness* and alienness away, but it's got worse over the years instead of better.  I'm at the end of my rope now.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on May 20, 2008, 12:14:55 PM

Quote from: Rebis on May 20, 2008, 09:51:42 AM
How do you temper your penis?                :laugh:

By heating it red-hot and then dipping it in a bucket of cold water. Some of the more masculine and superstitious practitioners prefer to use a virgin instead of the water, claiming that this results in a better temper.

  Nfr

OH MY GOD.  :o  There are no words...

:laugh:

Quote from: Autumn on May 20, 2008, 08:38:44 AM
though I take advantage of the whole having a penis thing sometimes (work with what you have.)

what is the advantage of a penis other than standing to pee (which i almost never do)

Quote from: Kinkly on May 30, 2008, 01:19:48 PM
what is the advantage of a penis other than standing to pee (which i almost never do)

For some reason it helps in being taken seriously, except in a maternity ward.

  Nfr

Aww come on...standing up to pee is the best thing about having a penis...well, maybe second best  >:D

As far as tempering your weenie, I had to take mine to Anger Management classes as it got pissed off way too often.  <*groan*>

Moving right along....

As you can see from my picture, I have a beard.  And, like Simone Louise, I have Stage II+ breasts.  I have not yet started HRT, but I am pretty sure it is headed my way.

So far, only my best friend has ever said anything about them, and her only comment was to ask if I were taking "steroids" to make them grow.  I said no, but didn't tell her about the herbal supplements.  I know many people say they don't work, and it may be mind over matter, but something has made them grow over the last several months.

After ordering several bras on-line (ya can't buy 40A bras at Wal-Mart, ya know) I find myself wearing one most of the time when not in guy mode.  Let me tell you, a good push-up bra and nobody can miss the fact that they are there.

As far as reactions from people...I agree with the comment that people tend to see what they want to see.  Like Autumn, I get more comments (or looks) about my long nails, jewelry and makeup than about my breasts & beard.

Now, about the beard thing...I had one for 30 years until about a year ago.  Since then, it has come and gone a couple of times, and is about to go again.  I have come to the conclusion that I really don't want it, but I do think I look better with it.  Also, it acts as a brake to keep me from rushing too fast into full time girl mode...I'm not ready for that, even though I want it so very badly.  Sheesh, I'm a mess again

...L

Some breast growth from hrt here. Currently I don't sport a beard like the others. I  could grow one, and sometimes I do let it gather a few days growth, however I shave it for work reasons.

My body does feel more insync with my mind, how I feel about myself.

standing up to pee is the best thing about having a penis...well, maybe second best

The best is being able to take a piss out of a window of a car at 60 mph when you pals will not stop for you.  Bonus points if its not your car.

Quote from: tekla on May 31, 2008, 10:18:44 PM
standing up to pee is the best thing about having a penis...well, maybe second best

The best is being able to take a piss out of a window of a car at 60 mph when you pals will not stop for you.  Bonus points if its not your car.

I'd hate to be waiting on the side of the road when you went past. lol  :laugh:

As I vaguely remember those days you would have much rather been on the side of the road - no matter what - then to be another car on the road.  Gas was 10-13 cents a gallon, everyone had what were known as 'muscle cars' big 440 Roadrunners, Hemi Chargers, Camaros, and the like and no one thought much about speed limits and if you were caught drinking and driving the cops would make you pour it out and tell you "at least your not on drugs."  Amazing any of us made it this far.

Quote from: Laurry on May 31, 2008, 06:33:50 PM
I said no, but didn't tell her about the herbal supplements.  I know many people say they don't work, and it may be mind over matter, but something has made them grow over the last several months.

Same here. I can't yet fill my 40aa bras  :embarrassed: but yet they are still "there" and quite evident.

always had about an a cup but have started to see them more as breasts now than i used to do and now i like them a whole lot more they suit me :)

What about writing your name in the snow. Even girls can do it now, just need a funnel and a piece of plastic tubing.

Cindy

hi i can tell you iam born between the middle iam half a boy and half a girl i have a vagina en breast but no other girls parts indside inside i have two male balls
and have male hair grow al over my body