Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Do you feel pressure to conform to gender expectations? Expectations of the sex you transitioned to, not your birth sex.

No.  I am me.  That's the whole reason I transitioned to begin with (to be me).

I am a girl who blasts gangster rap out her car, majors in game art and design, and isn't afraid to talk about sex and sexuality. I feel no pressure to conform. Perhaps this is because I goto a private school that is full of cultural deviants who salutes my differences rather than shake their head at it, but I have yet to be discouraged to be such a wierdo/tomboy/goofy girl/whatever.

But then again, this is all behavioral. I still look and dress like your average girl so...


Oh, but my mom always makes me dress "nice" if we go out somewhere, so maybe that counts?

No.  I refuse to claw my way out of one box, just to jump into another.  Even if I turn out to be the girliest guy in America, that's O.K.  (Not that that will happen.  I've met a number of natal guys who are much girlier than I am.  :P)

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 30, 2008, 06:46:36 PM
I am a girl who blasts gangster rap out her car, majors in game art and design, and isn't afraid to talk about sex and sexuality. I feel no pressure to conform. Perhaps this is because I goto a private school that is full of cultural deviants who salutes my differences rather than shake their head at it, but I have yet to be discouraged to be such a wierdo/tomboy/goofy girl/whatever.

Amen to that! I'm sorry I just couldn't help myself. Please forgive me for my sinful ways.

Hi Gracie FAISE I like driving around with with the windows rolled down with loud rock music on the radio. But I kind of toned it down some with Wing Walker, she is not a fan of loud rock music, she prefers oldies music. Music she says that is probably older then you are. But what the heck I still feel like a kid.

I use to drive around with the three kids I had in my care with the radio cranked and we would all sing at the top of our voices, Ahhhh but that was the good days. I just simply love life and will for as long as I possibly can.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on May 30, 2008, 07:05:08 PM
Hi Gracie FAISE I like driving around with with the windows rolled down with loud rock music on the radio. But I kind of toned it down some with Wing Walker, she is not a fan of loud rock music, she prefers oldies music. Music she says that is probably older then you are. But what the heck I still feel like a kid.

I use to drive around with the three kids I had in my care with the radio cranked and we would all sing at the top of our voices, Ahhhh but that was the good days. I just simply love life and will for as long as I possibly can.

Cindy

According to my friend I listen to weird things. If you here anything coming out of my car it is soundtracks to video games, strange underground stuff like Nerd Rap, etc. Im to bored with the radio :"0 at least the music. radio talk shows kick ass though

Let's see...

Well, I am into drama. I am over dramatic. Sometimes, I can be a bit flamboyant. Other times, I do fit the "handy-man" stereotype, liking my cars, machines, gadgets, cop shows, etc. But in all honesty, I am most bothered by the fact that everyone seems to be hung up on the size of a man's penis. I don't even have one, so what does that make me? It's really annoying... If they're going to take a man for face value, why do they care what's in his pants? Unless men have dicks on their faces now that I don't know about?

I don't really meet the social expectations. Flirting with guys is one of my downfalls. It just makes people see me as a girl more, which annoys me. If I'm going to make whoopie with some guy, he better let me express my masculinity or it's not going to work.

I'd say in personality, clothing, etc. I'm quite androgynous. I wear suits a lot, but quite... gayly. And maybe it's just the goofy look on my face but I often just come off as very "queer" whether a person thinks I'm a boy or a girl...

I'm into musical theater... singing... it's one of the things I'll be sacrificing when I start T, as my singing voice will drastically change.

I'd say the most... radical thing I do outside of my gender role for my target sex is that I am trying out make up. But really for theater purposes... so plenty of straight, cisgendered guys do that. I guess another thing that isn't very masculine about me is that I have a really girly bed, with flowers and stuff on it. Not like that really matters... Otherwise. everything about me is quite genderless, such as my collecting hobby. I collect bottle caps, guitar picks, glass bottles, mint tins... etc. Junk.

OH. And I care very much about fashion/matching. I am not into mainstream fashion (like "WHAT'S HOT") but rather old/vintage fashion. I like to dress like I was blasted out of the 70's or 80's...

I'm rambling. I'd say I fit fairly well into my gender role for my target sex but... I don't really do it on purpose.

I hate FORCED gender roles, and I want to stick a spork in anyone's eye who says someone isn't "trans enough" because they don't fit their target sex's gender role. Gender identity isn't about that!

When I lived as male, I never conformed to societal gender expectations for men. And I often paid a price for that. When I transitioned, same thing, I didn't have any desire to exchange one box of gender rules that didn't fit for another set that seemed just as constrained. Now, as androgyne, I enjoy freedom to simply be myself, outside any gender construct. If anyone comes up with rules for how to be a proper androgyne, I'll reject them. I know... I'm a pain  ;) :laugh:

Zythyra

Quote from: Zythyra on May 30, 2008, 08:48:01 PM
When I lived as male, I never conformed to societal gender expectations for men. And I often paid a price for that. When I transitioned, same thing, I didn't have any desire to exchange one box of gender rules that didn't fit for another set that seemed just as constrained. Now, as androgyne, I enjoy freedom to simply be myself, outside any gender construct. If anyone comes up with rules for how to be a proper androgyne, I'll reject them. I know... I'm a pain  ;) :laugh:

Zythyra

*drafting up androgyne rules*

Quote from: Nero on May 30, 2008, 08:52:17 PM
*drafting up androgyne rules*

I just knew that some wise guy would suggest such a thing  ;)

Well, I won't read those rules, nah, nah  :P  >:D

Z

Guy rule one.  Conforming to the norm is for guys who are not really good at something.  Being really good overrules having to conform.  Andros who are good can be male or female and still be 'one of the guys.'

Guy rule two.  Guys don't do rules, as a general rule.

I kind of resent that statement. Masculinity does not mean no talent. Just look at Mr. Chase.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy168%2Fpenguin_furuba%2FPeople%2F1weupdate.jpg&hash=655b42c47e927f56e3bab6880d8d22b0a8c508c4)

That would be the naked update.

Quote from: Elwood on May 30, 2008, 09:19:12 PM
I kind of resent that statement. Masculinity does not mean no talent. Just look at Mr. Chase.

I don't think Tekla was saying that. Masculinity does not equal conforming.

Quote from: Nero on May 30, 2008, 09:28:07 PM

Quote from: Elwood on May 30, 2008, 09:19:12 PMI kind of resent that statement. Masculinity does not mean no talent. Just look at Mr. Chase.

I don't think Tekla was saying that. Masculinity does not equal conforming.

Good eye. Caught me tripping over my own feet.

I don't conform, necessarily, but I sure look like I do. I guess that's why I'm being defensive. I know I'm not a no-talent even though I blend into a crowd of young men.

Quote from: tekla on May 30, 2008, 09:03:54 PM
Guy rule two.  Guys don't do rules, as a general rule.

Guy rule three. If there are rules, guys won't read the manual  :laugh:

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on May 30, 2008, 09:36:07 PMGuy rule three. If there are rules, guys won't read the manual  :laugh:

Z

Unless you're Egon.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy168%2Fpenguin_furuba%2FGhostbusters%2F1143829022_ictureEgon.jpg&hash=f6fd280fccddf8e92ca426802539a1e3328c65f5)

Then you read them all.

Sometime we question whether he's a boy or a robot.

Quote from: Elwood on May 30, 2008, 09:31:40 PM

Quote from: Nero on May 30, 2008, 09:28:07 PM

Quote from: Elwood on May 30, 2008, 09:19:12 PMI kind of resent that statement. Masculinity does not mean no talent. Just look at Mr. Chase.

I don't think Tekla was saying that. Masculinity does not equal conforming.

Good eye. Caught me tripping over my own feet.

I don't conform, necessarily, but I sure look like I do. I guess that's why I'm being defensive. I know I'm not a no-talent even though I blend into a crowd of young men.

yeah masculinity and overinflated machismo are two different things. a guy can wear pink and be masculine (well according to me anyway) :laugh:

a guy can wear pink and be masculine (well according to me anyway)

According to me too. 

Oh, I agree with that. REAL MEN WEAR PINK. ;D I want that shirt... Love it.

My skin tone doesn't agree with pink, makes me look washed out... white is the worst though.

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on May 30, 2008, 09:54:10 PMMy skin tone doesn't agree with pink, makes me look washed out... white is the worst though.

Z

I've been told I look great in pink. To be honest, I don't think many people look all that good in pink. Maybe a light pink. Meh. I'm probably mixing things up at this point... I really am hungry so I better go eat before I sputter more nonsense. :laugh:

I'm transitioning to be me, not fit some male stereotype.  I never fit in a woman's role, never did what was expected, then so why now?  Heck, my parenting style is radical, my homeschooling style is radical, I've never lived inside the box (well, not since I turned 30, LOL)

I am me.

Jay

I hate conformity. I also hate how I constantly get told that I'm "such a typical guy." I mean, wtf?! What EXACTLY is a typical guy anyway?  ???

It makes me sick.  Here in my little part of the country, you can't dress like the opposite sex.  You can't act like the opposite sex.  You can't talk like the opposite sex.  If you do, then you must be an alien or something.  The only person I've met in public that seems like my "kind" is some cash register guy at Wal-Mart.  He has a scruff beard and looks like someone that would be on a skateboard all the time.  When he talks, it just lights up my world.  He is so full of color, he's wonderful with my 2-year old son....and, well...it just make me want to cry.   

Aeron

I conform to the expectations of my physical sex.

It's all lies.  But it makes things hurt less at the moment.

:(

Transition for me is about addressing my dysphoria, to be honest. Because other than that, I don't mind being female-bodied; I can have the personality I wish despite my body. But my body feels terribly wrong, so I wish to address that.

When I came across this thread, I had an answer straight away but after reading everyones contributions, I am not so sure.

I am a volunteer at my local theatre.  It is a provincial facility owned and operated by the local council.  This council has set down rules for it's staff and dress codes are among them.  I am 'expected' to follow the formal dress code for females and they know that I am a 'pre-op'.    I have no problems with that as it gives me good practice with my interactions with other staff members and the public living and working as a female.  I have done this for nearly 2 years and have been successful to the extent that I have a letter that was written for the gender clinic for verification of current RLT.  After a few early awkward moments at the time when I was engaged, everyone treats me as I am today, Jennifer.  We have a natter and a giggle and they even got me  drunk one night to loosen me up  ;)

Outside of the theatre, it is a different story.  Most days, I have to board a bus into town and have to brave the whispers, innuendo and giggles from school kids etc but mostly from the appalling drivers that the bus company employ.  My travel pass ( I am disabled ) clearly shows me as a female with photo and name clear to see but this is not quite good enough for them. When challenged by the driver, the passengers are also alerted thus follows 10 minutes of sheer agony until the bus gets to town.

Once in town, life gets easy again because people generally are too busy with their own little lives and not with little 'ole me.  There are exceptions, on Friday I went into a little shop to get something ( 1st ever time in there ) and as I was leaving, the man behind the counter called attention to his assistant near the door.  He looked at me, I turned back and looked at them both catching site of an offensive gesture at my expense.  I give them business in hard times and get abused for doing so, I will not return.

These events are rare, about 1%.  But when they do occur, I have severe dips in confidence.  Society expects much of females and men alike and we seem trapped into a mindset of how to behave according to our genital arrangements at birth.  To cross the gender divide is tough, but to live in the wrong gender is much harder in my view.    When I was existing as a man  (  :laugh: ) I never fitted in with my co-workers and they gave me a hard time assuming that I was gay. I was expected to be like them and I failed them.  Today, as a woman, I try hard to fit in with how women behave.  I have no idea if I am doing it well or not but my neighbour put me at ease a week ago when I was having a heart to heart with her over a bottle of wine.   She told me that I was more of a woman than she ever was despite my inability to match her 7 children.  I have breasts that she envies ( she has implants mine are natural ), my dress sense is immaculate ( her words ), my gestures are 'typically' female ( I note the comment from Scratchy Wilson )   and that I should relax and enjoy myself because society insists on trivialities whilst real life does not.

My view of society's expections of my gender is.......... :icon_chainsaw:

Quote from: Nero on May 30, 2008, 05:56:52 PM
Do you feel pressure to conform to gender expectations?

Nope. Not yet anyway.

But a wise friend of mine points out that I haven't been in a wide variety of situations yet, so maybe I'll encounter more "pressure" as I experience more things? Could be I 'spose, but for now, whatever I'm "doing" seems to be in synch with what society expects of me.

OR maybe they're too terrified of 'lil 'ol me to actually SAY anything, lol...

~Kate~

People asking questions why I do certain stuff that Girls don't do frustrates me.
At times I conform to doing "nothing" (literally) so people will lay off my case. Bad days.

Expectation of my gender? Well I don't realy worry about it since no one knows me personally here. Most times people just go doing what they do busy with their own lives as someone else mentioned here. I realy don't find any problems. I don't ride public transportation not because I am afraid to, but I feel claustrophobic where there are to many bodies in a confined area, like being on a Borg ship.

Wing Walker and I own a new Jeep Liberty which we bought on arrival to Vancouver. I don't drive, guess I am still a bit rattled by an accident we had two years ago in Asheville NC. I am going to have to begin trying to learn to drive around this place though soon.

I have begun to make some new friends here and in general I am happy and feel secure. But then I do have my Wing Walker with me and she said she ain't gonna let no one put their paws on me. "Hee, hee, hee!"  And if someone did, they would be the ones going to ER.

There are times I do feel uncomfortable and I believe that sometimes this is quite probably a normal reaction that we all go through.

I guess I forgot the part that this thread is about. Do I conform? To the best of my ability to what ever it is I need to conform in order to fit in with what ever part I am doing in Society. I am an old girl trying to make up for a life time of living as a girl/woman/ Mommy/Granny .

Cindy

Quote from: Nero on May 30, 2008, 05:56:52 PM
Do you feel pressure to conform to gender expectations? Expectations of the sex you transitioned to, not your birth sex.

OMG! Why does it feel like I preface every post with "I think I'm going against popular opinion..." LoL Oh well... here goes:

Yes, for the most part I do. Unless I'm missing the intended question. I not only feel the pressures of society's expectations of me as female, but I conform to many of them. Before I transitioned, I really didn't know what to expect from "gender expectations," I just went with it... and as it turns out, I really do "conform." Ironically, I challenge many conformist's ideals. I transitioned from Male to Female, for one. That's not expected of me as Male. I was very fashionable as a boy, spending waaaayyy too much money on clothes and product. But I did conform with all the hyper-masculine ideals of 'providing for your gf/wife," "being bread-winner," "wearing the pants (lol)."

So is it from rote habit, or just "being me" that I conform? I love shopping. I love feeling beautiful. I struggle with my weight because "skinny is beautiful," as per society's perspective. I love doing my hair: straighten, curl, tease, style. I love doing my makeup; foundation-flawless skin; large, smoky eyes; mascara-thickened, long eyelashes; gloss-plumped lips. I love it. I love being girly and doing what society says girls should I do. I love doing it.

I'm afraid of the pressures from the "glass-ceiling" that awaits when I start practicing law. I don't work on cars and trucks as much, partly because society says it's strange for a girl to do but equally as much (maybe even more) because I hate getting dirty and grimy and I don't want to ruin these way-too-expensive acrylic nails that society says is teh hotness (but I tend to agree, I love 'em).

As much as I'd love to wave the anti-conformist's banner--I'd somehow feel I'd fit-in more with the opinion of this board (there's another pressure! LoL)--but I just can't. I feel the pressures. I hate it when I'm feeling guilty for caving to the craving of Taco Bell or when I regularly visit my scale or plot my next "diet" or wake up three hours earlier to do my hair and makeup... but I love it when I'm shopping or when I walk into a store and the girl's section is eight times larger than the boys' or when I'm standing in a line at the DMV and a man nervously walks up to me to tell me he thinks I'm "striking."

:) Conform, I do.

I am convinced Lacitychick21, you are a girl. You have said much that was on my mind. Thank you.  :-*

Mostly, society tends to expect the wrong things anyway.  Society is easy to fool, easy to over-ride, and pretty easy to ignore most of the time.   Granted I grew up in kind of an outlaw culture / counterculture and that helped, though countercultures are just mini-societies, so they too have expectations.  Again, you can skirt a lot of it.  Find what you are good at and zero in on those things, everything else falls into line, or falls away. 

Personal it was society's expectation of my boy mode that really P.O.s me.  How could I be me if I have to live up to their standards.  And who in creation made them the ones to tell us.

My Stepson, Jonathan, is 6'5", about 250 lbs, has a great body and he wears a pink shirt he got be able to hunt moose in Canada.  Some law up there I guess.He never got the moose but he still has and wears that shirt.  Looks good on him too.

:icon_love:,
Janet

Posted on: May 31, 2008, 09:08:56 PM

---

Oh and I forgot to mention that he served three tours in Iraq and is honorable discharged from the Army.

Janet

Being a woman is difficult.
It is also wonderful.
Thank you for your concern Nero.

Quote from: lacitychick21 on May 31, 2008, 05:40:40 PM

Quote from: Nero on May 30, 2008, 05:56:52 PM
Do you feel pressure to conform to gender expectations? Expectations of the sex you transitioned to, not your birth sex.

OMG! Why does it feel like I preface every post with "I think I'm going against popular opinion..." LoL Oh well... here goes:

Yes, for the most part I do. Unless I'm missing the intended question. I not only feel the pressures of society's expectations of me as female, but I conform to many of them. Before I transitioned, I really didn't know what to expect from "gender expectations," I just went with it... and as it turns out, I really do "conform." Ironically, I challenge many conformist's ideals. I transitioned from Male to Female, for one. That's not expected of me as Male. I was very fashionable as a boy, spending waaaayyy too much money on clothes and product. But I did conform with all the hyper-masculine ideals of 'providing for your gf/wife," "being bread-winner," "wearing the pants (lol)."

So is it from rote habit, or just "being me" that I conform? I love shopping. I love feeling beautiful. I struggle with my weight because "skinny is beautiful," as per society's perspective. I love doing my hair: straighten, curl, tease, style. I love doing my makeup; foundation-flawless skin; large, smoky eyes; mascara-thickened, long eyelashes; gloss-plumped lips. I love it. I love being girly and doing what society says girls should I do. I love doing it.

I'm afraid of the pressures from the "glass-ceiling" that awaits when I start practicing law. I don't work on cars and trucks as much, partly because society says it's strange for a girl to do but equally as much (maybe even more) because I hate getting dirty and grimy and I don't want to ruin these way-too-expensive acrylic nails that society says is teh hotness (but I tend to agree, I love 'em).

As much as I'd love to wave the anti-conformist's banner--I'd somehow feel I'd fit-in more with the opinion of this board (there's another pressure! LoL)--but I just can't. I feel the pressures. I hate it when I'm feeling guilty for caving to the craving of Taco Bell or when I regularly visit my scale or plot my next "diet" or wake up three hours earlier to do my hair and makeup... but I love it when I'm shopping or when I walk into a store and the girl's section is eight times larger than the boys' or when I'm standing in a line at the DMV and a man nervously walks up to me to tell me he thinks I'm "striking."

:) Conform, I do.

Very nicely said. Intelligent, true, imo, and not grasping at straws.

No one must conform in any respect if he/she/sie doesn't wish to do so.

I don't conform in all of the ways Laci does, most simply because I'm old enough, by the look of it, to be her grandma!!  :laugh: :laugh:

But, yes, Why would I want to wade back into 'gender-deviance' after leaving that state? I can see why others are fine with it. More power to them.

So, conform I do to the vast area of 'normal' middle-aged female behavior and looks. Most of which suits me to a "T" !!!

I allow men to hold the conversation, I pick my spots to interject my own ideas in some amenable way that sounds everso much like a question when I'm in classes and seminars with the guys. I get my ideas out in my papers and that appears to work quite well, thank you.

I suppose my only 'variance' is I do like to show my legs somewhat, not mini-skirts or hot-pants, but a few inches of thigh. Why not? They are a good feature.  :)

Thanks Laci, for a wonderful response.

:icon_hug:

Nichole