Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone. :D

I'm new to this forum. I hope to learn a bit about what it is to be androgyne as well as learn what I am.

Well...I guess my title tells a lot already. So is there any definite characteristic that can tell you that you are an androgyne? I feel in my heart that I am an androgyne, but my heart might be lieing to me. I think I'll go google what it is to be androgyne now.

I appreciate any replys I might receive.

Hi, Je! :icon_wave:

As probably everyone at Susan's will be able to tell you, one of the most problematic aspects of gender dysphoria is that the various labels (e.g. androgyne, bigender, transsexual, etc.) tend not to have one single identifying element. Rather, each label has many different possible definitions and aspects, some of which overlap with other labels' definitions, some of which people who identify as X may not necessarily experience themselves...in a nut-shell, it's very hard to say that androgyne = X, Y or Z. However, you may be able to identify with *some aspects* of the 'androgyne' definition, and therefore identify as androgyne. If you don't know which 'label' to give yourself (and there are many arguments for and against self-labelling), go to Wikipedia (or the Wiki here), type in a starting term (e.g. 'androgyne'), read the article, and then click on one of the other highlighted terms. (For example, when I was trying to figure things out, I went something like gay>homophobia>transphobia>transgender>bigender>transsexual>(back to transgender)>third gender>androgyne>...). They don't all mean the same thing, but there is a certain degree of inter-relatedness between them (some moreso than others), and so by doing this you can see that 'bigender' has general possible (possible, not necessary) characteristics A, B, and C, 'androgyne' has A, C and D, 'transgender' has B, C, D, E, G, H, and so on. The more you read, the better an idea you will have of the possible characteristics that an androgyne may have, and which of these you may have as well (and so whether you're androgyne or not. Not that there's a black-and-white yesorno...as I said, lots of overlap). 

As for the matter of actually defining 'androgyne', here are a few suggestions:

"Having both female and male characteristics..." - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/androgynous

"Combining male and female features; hermaphroditism. Also in feminist writing, the absence of socially reinforced differences of behaviour supposedly characteristic of either gender." - http://www.answers.com/topic/androgyny

"Androgynous traits are those that either have no gender value, or have some aspects generally attributed to the opposite gender. Physiological androgyny (compare intersex), which deals with physical traits, is distinct from behavioral androgyny which deals with personal and social anomalies in gender, and from psychological androgyny, which is a matter of gender identity. A psychologically androgynous person[2] is commonly known as an androgyne [citation needed] (and, less commonly, as a non-binary gender variant)..." - http://www.answers.com/topic/androgyny

"An androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" male and female, or as entirely genderless. They may class themselves as non-gendered, agendered, between genders, Intergendered, bigendered or, genderfluid." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny

"A person who fits both the physical characteristics or feels like they are both a male and female. Some androgyne's have both male and female parts, some don't." - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=androgyne

"Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior." - https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

Hope that helps, and has answered (or enabled you to answer) a few questions!

All the best, and hope you enjoy your time at Susan's. :)

Lutin

Quote from: je on June 15, 2008, 05:51:39 AM
Well...I guess my title tells a lot already. So is there any definite characteristic that can tell you that you are an androgyne? I feel in my heart that I am an androgyne, but my heart might be lieing to me. I think I'll go google what it is to be androgyne now.

Hi Je,

Welcome to Susan's. As Lutin said, there's various ways to be androgyne. As you read through the archives, you'll see that each of us has had different experiences and feelings of what being androgyne means for ourselves, sometimes with overlap, but not always. My best advice is to listen to your heart, it doesn't lie. Feel free to ask questions and enjoy the journey of discovery  ;D

Zythyra

Hi je,

There are probably dozens of ways to arrive at the belief that you are androgyne. For me it started at a young age when I realized that I was "different". Later I narrowed it down to that fact that I really didn't fit into a "mans" world. This manifested in many ways but generally I stood outside the male group on most occasions. In my middle age this still continued even though I was happily married, had kids, and owned my own business, and "should have" been a happy person.

Luckily the internet now existed, so I started searching. Eventually I ran across a "brain sex" test (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex) that suggested my mind was both male and female. Ah ha! now i'm getting somewhere. There is also another online test (cogiati, http://transsexual.org/TEST0.html) that gave me the same answer. And then suddenly my "difference" fell solidly into place. Of course, bringing a female perspective/thought process into a man's world is going to get me voted off of the island every time. duh. And it also explained a lot of other things in my life as well that I won't detail here.

The reason I believe i'm androgyne instead of MTF trans is because the thought of transitioning and living life as a woman does not appeal to me, or seem to "fix" my situation in any way. My current male body is just as good as a female one would be to me. The "problem" is not my body.

Not that this is all bad; there are lots of good things about being an androgyne. For example, I find that I can see all sides of almost every issue/dispute. I have incredible insight into the thoughts of the females around me including my wife. We've been married 21 years now and continue to enjoy a strong relationship. I can complete her sentences, and we think the same way on life issues and choices. Growing up in a mans world I got the secret male decoder ring and handshake, so I also know what is going on with men and what they are thinking. I feel like I am more balanced as a person having been given both male and female thought patterns. An so on.

Anyway, I hope that you find the answers that you are looking for.

Riven

if you don't feel male enough to be a man of female enough to be a woman
or feel too fem to be a man and too male to be a woman

then you are probably an androgyne

I'd say if you think you're androgyne, you are.  :D  Welcome!  I agree with Z, reading through the archives might give you some ideas.  But again, if that's what you feel you are, that's all that matters!

Hey Je,

Maybe it would help if you wrote down how you feel here. We won't be able to 'diagnose' you because it all comes down to what you feel inside, but perhaps we can ask you questions that will help you clarify your position?

Nick

Hi Je!  Welcome to Susan's and the Androgyne group.

Quote from: Kinkly on June 15, 2008, 01:16:52 PM
if you don't feel male enough to be a man of female enough to be a woman
or feel too fem to be a man and too male to be a woman

then you are probably an androgyne

This was how I figured it out...tried all the other labels to see if they fit...none did...Androgynes was what worked best, at least for now.  Read some of the posts in several sections, and look for similarities and differences.  Follow your heart and don't think of any decision as permanent...things change and no label fits perfectly.

......L

Wow I didn't expect I would receive this many replys. :laugh:

Is it androgy or androgyne?

I'm actually glad that there is no right way to be an androgy. But how do I differentiate myself from normal people or transsexual people?

For a long time I had no clue into my being. As a child I could say I fit in around girls and boys. I saw nothing wrong with fitting in with either group. I didn't know that it was wrong to be able to do that. I thought everyone could do that. Anyways I guess I was very naive.

As I got older I began to steer away from being around girls. I don't know. I fit in well around males, but I never quite belonged. I was just different.

Now after realizing finally what I might be, my feelings are starting to become clear. I don't think I'm a transsexual because when I think about changing myself it feels a bit forced. I don't think I'm normal either. I guess I'm just different. :eusa_pray:

I read up about this state of being, and I must say that there is some terminology I must learn.

I will definitely check through the archives eventually. By the way this particular place is extremely friendly. I'm seeing a good experience coming already.

Zythyra? What a unique name. I have never heard such a interesting name ever. I'm sure there is a story behind it. :laugh:

*begins to beat myself over the head for being an ignoramus* Thanks for clearing those things up lutin.

Glad to see you're enjoying it here. ;D

As I understand it, "androgyny" tends to refer to the state of being notmalenotfemale, "androgynous" describes the animal (human or otherwise), and "androgyne" is the notmalenotfemale person. I think.

Also, transgender = "of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender),

while

Transsexual is "a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments." -Susan's).

So for instance, I'm transgender in that sometimes I feel female, sometimes genderless, most often male, but I don't want to change, so I'm not transsexual.

Anyway, long story short, in your case it sounds like you are androgyne (which I think falls under the "transgender umbrella"), and not transsexual. If that helps any. :(

Lutin  :icon_hug:

hi.... well well this gets more interesting the further  i go ...wow...i am begining to see some thigs i did not see before thank you.    i have seen my self as a transfemale yet i know i am both male & female as has been said . some things  yea i know we are not all the same i have not liked this naming part of things yet i know i am on the other side of the fence as a women yes its right for me now.....yet theres lots of little things we dont see for a long time then things come slowly  ill tell you all.   its still a neat trip. even with its ups & downs.  oh yea.   some times its a mind bender.. wow i love it  thanks to you all for being so open ....noeleena.... :)

Quote from: je on June 16, 2008, 01:03:18 AM
Wow I didn't expect I would receive this many replys. :laugh:

Is it androgy or androgyne

Androgyne

QuoteZythyra? What a unique name. I have never heard such a interesting name ever. I'm sure there is a story behind it. :laugh:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,37090.msg245418.html#msg245418 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,37090.msg245418.html#msg245418) the short story version. The full story is much longer... parts of which are scattered throughout the archives.

Z

Quote from: Lutin on June 16, 2008, 01:49:00 AM
Glad to see you're enjoying it here. ;D

As I understand it, "androgyny" tends to refer to the state of being notmalenotfemale, "androgynous" describes the animal (human or otherwise), and "androgyne" is the notmalenotfemale person. I think.

I believe that androgyne can also mean "both male and female" as well as "neither male or female", or at least that is the definition that I see batted around here a lot. I fall into the "both" category.

I like to think of it as a spectrum (or a football field...that was a long time ago, wasn't it? :D).  For my understanding, androgyne is in the middle area.  Sometimes you might be in the exact middle, other times you might lean towards one end and other times towards the other.  But I like visuals...

There's lots of room to move. :icon_geekdance:

My current understanding is, that gender is a social construction and as you are born into society, you make these constructs your own. (Though I'd never deny that physiological aspects play a very great part about how you see yourself in this system.) Though the spectrum model works quite well, I'm not a huge fan of it. I think "male" and "female" are just to randomly picked points in an infinite space. Gender can't be reduced to male, female, and somewehere in between.

To find out what you are: "Look into your heart and you will know."

(You have Shuichi-av, Jaimey?! I'm waiting to find out to add my Nanami to that.:D)

Quote from: je on June 16, 2008, 01:03:18 AM
I'm actually glad that there is no right way to be an androgy. But how do I differentiate myself from normal people or transsexual people? 

The truth is androgynes are as varied as anyone else. I don't think there is one defining characteristic.

In reality nobody is going to look at you and think "that person is an androgyne". I don't think it happens.

I think the object is to just do what feels most comfortable for you and meets your needs in terms of being able to live in this world. So to differentiate yourself you should aim to be yourself.

Quote from: Jora on June 16, 2008, 06:12:09 PM
My current understanding is, that gender is a social construction and as you are born into society, you make these constructs your own. (Though I'd never deny that physiological aspects play a very great part about how you see yourself in this system.) Though the spectrum model works quite well, I'm not a huge fan of it. I think "male" and "female" are just to randomly picked points in an infinite space. Gender can't be reduced to male, female, and somewehere in between.

To find out what you are: "Look into your heart and you will know."

(You have Shuichi-av, Jaimey?! I'm waiting to find out to add my Nanami to that.:D)

The spectrum thing is just how I think of it...I wouldn't actually call it a model...it's not that significant...it's just how my head works.  I tend to go for linear thought, so that sort of thing works for me.  ;)

:laugh: Did you notice the little Yuki he's sqeezing?!  :icon_weee:  Nanami...where's that character from? (I feel like I should know, but it's not coming to me)

Yes, I noticed. :D

This is my Nanami-Av:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faarinfantasy.com%2Fforum%2Fcustomavatars%2Favatar81114_3.gif&hash=ca0d074e340066e3dabdaffbfc9a3c1c4c0761ec)
Our beloved Sukisyo transgender-nurse. Not really androgyne anymore, but still my idol. :D

Quote from: Jora on June 16, 2008, 06:12:09 PM
My current understanding is, that gender is a social construction and as you are born into society, you make these constructs your own.

That sounds about right, although with the addition that social gender is grounded in biological sex. That is, the social distinction between the genders is not completely arbitrary.

Quote from: Jora on June 16, 2008, 06:12:09 PM
Though the spectrum model works quite well, I'm not a huge fan of it. I think "male" and "female" are just to randomly picked points in an infinite space. Gender can't be reduced to male, female, and somewehere in between.

Neither can colour -- the colour space is at least three-dimensional (for instance hue, saturation and lightness), and it can be divided into separate named colours in a number of ways.  There has been quite a bit of research into how the space is divided into distinct colours. For instance, there was a study in 1969 about the order in which colour terms appear in different languages in the world: in general, the colours of a three-colour language are a subset of those of a four-colour one, and so on. Recent research seems to imply that this is based on human physiology.

Anyway, my take on this is that if 'male' is black and 'female' is white, I'm bright green. Somewhere in between, but nevertheless opposite to red.

  Nfr

Quote from: Jora on June 17, 2008, 12:52:04 PM
Yes, I noticed. :D

This is my Nanami-Av:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faarinfantasy.com%2Fforum%2Fcustomavatars%2Favatar81114_3.gif&hash=ca0d074e340066e3dabdaffbfc9a3c1c4c0761ec)
Our beloved Sukisyo transgender-nurse. Not really androgyne anymore, but still my idol. :D

I've had trouble finding all of Sukisyo...I found the first episode and I really liked it, but then the rest on the site I use were kind of random...it wasn't the whole series *sad*.  I also really like Kazuki from GetBackers...very androgynous.  And Mad Hatter from Angel Sanctuary...if I could pick an ideal body, his would be it.  :laugh:

Je, thank you for your post, and I thank everyone else for their response.  I am new here, HI!  And I have been trying to figure out who I am as well.  I think after reading this thread and some others, I see who I am. I am inbetween, I am an Adrogyne, I am Bigendered.  I am all, and am none.

And I think I feel a whole lot better in understanding that now.

I am so happy to have found this place.  I have a friend, Jade, who is transexual, but she doesnt know what to do.  I will be bringing her as well.

Good morning!

Hello! :D

You are welcome Candlelight! Furthermore welcome to this forum!

My journey is taking some turns at the moment. Whether I am androgyne or not, I don't believe I'm wrong in trying to find my place or in not knowing exactly what I am at the moment.

Quote from: Candlelight on June 24, 2008, 08:16:46 AM
Je, thank you for your post, and I thank everyone else for their response.  I am new here, HI!  And I have been trying to figure out who I am as well.  I think after reading this thread and some others, I see who I am. I am inbetween, I am an Adrogyne, I am Bigendered.  I am all, and am none.

And I think I feel a whole lot better in understanding that now.

Hi Candlelight, and welcome to Susan's. Glad you've found our androgyne corner. I am also androgyne, in between or neither of the binary genders...

Z

I'm new here too! I'm used to the lack of single defining characteristics because I'm knee-deep in giftedness, which is another blurry concept with some really complicated biological basis. My best friend came out as FTM to me the other day, which is why I'm here, but the androgyne thing looked interesting... my main response is, "Aren't most people like that?" as in non-binary in gender, but that may be because, being exceptionally/profoundly gifted with a history of related mental illness, not to mention bisexual, I tend to get along with the misfits. (Plus, I've read in a few places that the gifted are more androgynous than the regular population...)

I took about half of the first test someone (riven?) posted before stopping in frustration because of its simplistic evaluation of mainly right brain/left brain strengths. While those things are related to gender, they're hardly the determining factor, and I wouldn't say every woman with a style of thinking that's more common among males has to forfeit her femininity, or vice versa. Err, well, really I quit because they wanted me to measure my hands and I (a) don't have a ruler and (b) have a connective tissue disorder that messes with those proportions anyway.

I've used the term bigendered to describe myself even though I hadn't heard the term. Over the past year or two (I just graduated high school last month) I struggled with not seeing males as superior to females (I'm in a female body--I bet I'd do fine in a male one, too, but it doesn't matter to me) and I guess masculinity still seems a little bit more "comfortable" to me in general, but it's a marginal difference. I've also described my attitude as anti-gender because I don't see any real reason to pay special attention to gender's polarities, and all the teeny tiny prejudices, jokes, baffled looks, etc that get applied to steps taken against the stereotypes are so damaging, and if they didn't exist, there'd be no friction preventing transsexuals from sliding over to their preferred point in the gender space.

Quote from: Elly_Murk on June 25, 2008, 10:15:16 AM
I took about half of the first test someone (riven?) posted before stopping in frustration because of its simplistic evaluation of mainly right brain/left brain strengths. While those things are related to gender, they're hardly the determining factor, and I wouldn't say every woman with a style of thinking that's more common among males has to forfeit her femininity, or vice versa. Err, well, really I quit because they wanted me to measure my hands and I (a) don't have a ruler and (b) have a connective tissue disorder that messes with those proportions anyway.

Yeah, it was me  :P

The finger length deal - there is some thought that the absence/presence of testosterone in the womb has an effect on the length of fingers, thus the finger length test. always amanda has posted up some threads about this if you are interested; do a search.

Thank you!