Susan's Place Transgender Resources

COGIATI... Nooooooooooooooo
The sexism, it BURNS

http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/gendertests.html
^- Has a nice take on these kinds of tests and the COGIATI specifically

QuoteStereotypes fail when you try to apply them to individuals, which is why the COGIATI fails when applied to individuals. As Anne Lawrence notes: "According to Ms. Reitz, typical male-to-female transsexuals are hopeless at math and science, love to sit close to strangers and be hugged by them, can't park cars, can't tell directions, get lost easily, suffer from migraines [and] are not assertive."

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 11:32:59 AM
COGIATI... Nooooooooooooooo
The sexism, it BURNS

http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/gendertests.html
^- Has a nice take on these kinds of tests and the COGIATI specifically

QuoteStereotypes fail when you try to apply them to individuals, which is why the COGIATI fails when applied to individuals. As Anne Lawrence notes: "According to Ms. Reitz, typical male-to-female transsexuals are hopeless at math and science, love to sit close to strangers and be hugged by them, can't park cars, can't tell directions, get lost easily, suffer from migraines [and] are not assertive."

I'm sure that all tests have their bias but for me those two tests helped me figure out a lot, and for that I am grateful.

Quote from: riven_one on June 15, 2008, 12:24:28 PM
I'm sure that all tests have their bias but for me those two tests helped me figure out a lot, and for that I am grateful.

That's cool that taking the tests assisted in your introspection to learn more about yourself. :)   I think though,  what andra was pointing out was that the results of those tests are completely meaningless because of the biases. The results saying that you're both or between male/female etc doesn't actually mean that you are at all.  It's the realization within yourself that determines that.  :)

Quote from: riven_one on June 15, 2008, 12:24:28 PM
I'm sure that all tests have their bias but for me those two tests helped me figure out a lot, and for that I am grateful.

It might just be my latent feminist tendencies talking but, in my opinion, defining gender by stating you're more of a woman if you fail at parking your car, reading maps, being assertive etc goes way beyond 'bias'.

Borrowing a definition from Julia Serano:
Oppositional sexism: Sexism that is rooted in the presumption that female and male are rigid, mutually exclusive, "opposite" sexes, each possessing a unique and non-overlapping set of attributes, aptitudes, abilities, and desires. It targets those who do not conform to oppositional gender norms. A number of previously described categories of sexism (e.g., transphobia, homophobia and cissexism) fall under the umbrella of oppositional sexism.

Defining GENDER ITSELF in terms of these "attributes, aptitudes, abilities, and desires" is about as oppositionally sexist as it's possible to get.  Sorry, this isn't an attack upon you, I just really dislike the COGIATI.

The COGIATI is a tool, just like a hammer, you can hang a picture with it just easily as you can put a big hole in the wall.

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:31:35 PM
The COGIATI is a tool, just like a hammer, you can hang a picture with it just easily as you can put a big hole in the wall.

It's a tool that simply doesn't work.  If it tallied up your answers and said 'you're x% feminine and x% masculine' that'd be okish (all be it one persons idea of what constitutes masculine and feminine), but to attempt to define a persons gender from stereotypes just doesn't work.  Not only does it not work, but if reinforces sexism which is Not A Good Thing(tm).  It's not like selling a hammer to knock nails into a wall and it being up to the user to use it right, it's like selling a wet trout to knock nails into walls, i.e. not fit for purpose.

It was my understanding that certain traits are associated with brain sex and the cogiati test is based somewhat on that.  Take the results with a grain of salt.  Something to consider, but not set in stone.  I agree it's not the best test, but if it helps someone, then that's fine.  If it didn't help you, that's fine too.  It might help with just bringing up questions.

QuoteIt was my understanding that certain traits are associated with brain sex and the cogiati test is based somewhat on that.

That's interesting.  Do you perhaps have a definitive source that has proof of these traits and the existing 'brain sex' that you could share?  :)

Quote from: Jaimey on June 15, 2008, 02:03:38 PM
It was my understanding that certain traits are associated with brain sex and the cogiati test is based somewhat on that. 

Even if that's true, it doesnt change the fact that men who don't have those 'male' traits are no less of a man than the men that have them in abundance. Are we going to start invalidating people's gender identities because they don't conform to behavioral 'norms'?  Since a man can fit the 'female' traits and a woman can fit the 'male' traits, please tell me what possible use this test is?!

That's why I said take it with a grain of salt.  That means think about it, but don't take it to heart.  And the brain sex thing was something I read when I was first started learning about gender identity...it came up, but I don't remember where.

Didn't we just have a discussion about threadjacking?  So why don't we just go back to answering je's question and let the cogiati test go?  :D  It's not worth getting worked up about.  If you want to discuss the cogiati test, I would suggest starting a thread for it instead of using je's.

Quote from: Jaimey on June 15, 2008, 02:43:36 PM
That's why I said take it with a grain of salt.  That means think about it, but don't take it to heart.  And the brain sex thing was something I read when I was first started learning about gender identity...it came up, but I don't remember where.

Didn't we just have a discussion about threadjacking?  So why don't we just go back to answering je's question and let the cogiati test go?  :D  It's not worth getting worked up about.  If you want to discuss the cogiati test, I would suggest starting a thread for it instead of using je's.

Yep I thought about it and certainly didn't take it to heart.

If I remember, wasn't that discussion about threadjacking with inanities not when raising a serious point?  I would be happy for a mod to come along though and split the thread.

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 02:52:12 PM
If I remember, wasn't that discussion about threadjacking with inanities not when raising a serious point?  I would be happy for a mod to come along though and split the thread.

OK, done.

Sorry I misspelled the name of the test in the topic title though  :embarrassed: Anybody have any idea of how to title it properly?

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on June 15, 2008, 03:35:47 PM

OK, done.

Sorry I misspelled the name of the test in the topic title though  :embarrassed: Anybody have any idea of how to title it properly?

Z

Modify Andra's post and remove the 'Re:' in the subject box. :) You can also do the same thing with all the other posts and change the subject to whatever you want. :)

On the topic of tests... I found the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex) test to be more... impartial? That's to say I trusted the result more. It gives you a sliding scale from 100% male to 100% female, and shows where you are on it. This is based on a number of exercises instead of multiple choice questions. It said my brain was around 40% female.

"Hee hee." I just wanted to thank Andra about the statement of using a wet trout to hammer nails in a wall, wow, what a mental image. Frozen trout might work a we bit better. Thanks for the laugh hon, I needed it today.  Not certain if I have any compliments that would help on this topic at this time though. I am just going through a bad hair day.

Cindy

Quote from: JC on June 15, 2008, 12:31:38 PM
It's the realization within yourself that determines that.  :)

In my case the tests helped me to finally understand "why" I was different. Before I took them it never occurred to me that my gender ID might be blended, I had never heard of such a thing. Those tests led me to my own "realization". For me they proved useful. Your mileage may vary.

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 01:41:10 PM

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:31:35 PM
The COGIATI is a tool, just like a hammer, you can hang a picture with it just easily as you can put a big hole in the wall.

It's a tool that simply doesn't work.  If it tallied up your answers and said 'you're x% feminine and x% masculine' that'd be okish (all be it one persons idea of what constitutes masculine and feminine), but to attempt to define a persons gender from stereotypes just doesn't work.  Not only does it not work, but if reinforces sexism which is Not A Good Thing(tm).  It's not like selling a hammer to knock nails into a wall and it being up to the user to use it right, it's like selling a wet trout to knock nails into walls, i.e. not fit for purpose.

It depends on how you look at it.

I am not saying it is a good tool, just that it does sometimes help people look into alternatives. It should not be taken too seriously, or even as a good self diagnostic tool. It's an internet quiz, how many have you found that were really any good for anything other than curiosity's sake. We have a whole forum full of various internet quizzes.

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 04:57:18 PM

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 01:41:10 PM

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:31:35 PM
The COGIATI is a tool, just like a hammer, you can hang a picture with it just easily as you can put a big hole in the wall.

It's a tool that simply doesn't work.  If it tallied up your answers and said 'you're x% feminine and x% masculine' that'd be okish (all be it one persons idea of what constitutes masculine and feminine), but to attempt to define a persons gender from stereotypes just doesn't work.  Not only does it not work, but if reinforces sexism which is Not A Good Thing(tm).  It's not like selling a hammer to knock nails into a wall and it being up to the user to use it right, it's like selling a wet trout to knock nails into walls, i.e. not fit for purpose.

It depends on how you look at it.

I am not saying it is a good tool, just that it does sometimes help people look into alternatives. It should not be taken too seriously, or even as a good self diagnostic tool. It's an internet quiz, how many have you found that were really any good for anything other than curiosity's sake. We have a whole forum full of various internet quizzes.

I agree, and at this point I even regret even mentioning that test. For me (since in the original thread I was describing how I realized that I was androgyne, not describing how one would go about doing so) it was a tool/indicator that got me to thinking. Along with another BBC test that no one has yet to mention/criticize. It was just my path. Others may follow a different one, and that is OK.