Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just did the coming out that I was least looking forward to - my best friend.  I've known for years that he was anti-transexual.  Not in a transphobic way, but in a completely misinformed about the statistics and realities of transexualism way.

So I called S. up, since he lives about four hours away from me at this point.  Tell him that I'm actually doing great, but I have something to talk to him about.  Give my spiel about how I've had something that I've been repressing for years and that caused me a lot of problems.  Now I'm accepting it and dealing with it and I'm doing better with life - to the point that I'm no longer on large doses of antidepressants.  And then tell him "S, I'm transexual".

Then came the 70 minutes of attempted "intervention".  Because he has a background in psychology (grew up in a university psychology department and got his BA in Psych back in 1992) he knows *all* about transexuality.  Called my therapist a "quack" and a "cheerleader", because he didn't have me get a second opinion to go on HRT, because that's part of the "ethics" and "standard guidelines" for dealing with trans.  When I quoted the SOC he just moved to another tactic.  But kept returning to "you need a second opinion" from someone who is anti-trans.

He then asked me if I knew what the suicide rate for post-op trans was.  I told him less than for trans who don't deal with it.  At which point he told me I was wrong and said that "almost all" (not "a lot" nor "most") post ops kill themselves when they realize what they've done and how it didn't help and there's no going back.

He accused me of thinking I was trans as a way to stay with my wife (who came out as a lesbian last fall and caused me a lot of heartache for quite a while).  I told him no, I was wanting this for a lot longer than that, that I had wanted a female/female relationship with my wife but was afraid of losing her for other reasons if I transitioned.

Then it was because I've been under "insane" amounts of stress, with losing my job last year, being unemployed for quite a while, new job, my wife "wanting to divorce me" (not true and I never said that), the fact that I'm in a new town without my support network (who are all of 20 miles away).  Then there's the fact that I supposedly always try to please people.  Then midlife crisis.  Then then then...

Not once "Are you happy?"  or "Are you sure?"  or even "Be careful.  This is a big deal.  You should get a second, unbiased opinion."   Just "you're wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong".  And my sister, who is beyond supportive and told me "I've known since we were teenagers that something was going on but could never figure it out", is only pretending to be supportive to stay in my life.

I swear he does have good points.  It's just my wife never sees them.  But tonight I just couldn't defend him to her.

Val

PS.  I just looked over this and have to say, okay, it is in a transphobic way.

If he calls you back, you could say, "You may be right, and I will have a second opinion in following the WPATH Standards of Care.  I'll let you know how it goes in a few years.  Oh, by the way, I am finally HAPPY." 

At least it's done, Val.  You've broken the ice and need do no more.  It's up to him whether or not he will accept you.

One thought that has always helped me in such situations is:  What other people think about me is none of my business.
It's theirs.  Let them live with it.

Robyn
8 years postop, happy, married, and successful

It doesn't sound like he's concerned about what you want at all, and doesn't sound like he even heard anything you said. More like he fell back on a checklist of possible 'causes' for you to have contracted some sort of 'disease' that he feels he has to try and 'cure' you of.

What I don't understand is why he had to be so aggressive and accuse you of a whole list of spurious reasons for somehow either suddenly developing the condition, or simply 'putting it on'.

With all due respect, he doesn't sound like a friend in the way he handled this. A friend would have been supportive and actually listened to what you said, rather than trying to ignore the fact that your life is your own, you're perfectly able to make your own informed decisions, and treating you like a six-year-old.

My intuition tells me that he's more worried about himself and the way he's going to be seen for having a transgendered friend, or that he doesn't want to turn the friendship that he thought was a guy-guy friendship, into one between a guy and a girl. Or maybe he does just actively dislike transgendered people... which suggests that if he's going to be a grade A ***hole about this, then you were only considered a friend as long as you fit his neat little criteria.

And with friends like that, who needs enemies?

:gag:  I think I would have just let that relationship go.  Sorry you had to go through that.  And in my biased opinion you shouldn't spend one more second worrying about this person.  You gave them a chance, one that I wouldn't have, and he blew it.  On the bright side: the deed is done, it must be a weight lifted off your shoulders.

Maybe he is secretly gay or scared that he may be trans.  I mean, it is awful scary.  That's why it takes some of us so long to even admit it to ourselves.  There may be some people who are just seriously scared they might be one of us even if they are not.

People are all weird. It's why I'm leaving earth.   :laugh:

QuoteBecause he has a background in psychology (grew up in a university psychology department and got his BA in Psych back in 1992) he knows *all* about transexuality.

It is quite obvious that he does not know all about transsexuality.  He knows nothing about the Standard of Care,  and he could care less about you.  He might be your best friend in all the world, but he is transphobic.

Even if he were to call you back, I personally would hang up on him.  No talking, no explaining, on nothing.
Let him let a message.  Except him back only if he apologies  to you for his lame attitude.

Just my humble opinion.

Janet

I know he is a friend and all but what an idiot! Pretty much shows why I avoided the psyches for years, so wrapped up in themselves that they forget about the people they are talking to at the time.

Oh yeah, post-op and extremely happy with life.

Thanks for the responses.  Reading through them makes me realize that it really might be best for me to just drift away here.  It's hard, though.  I've known him fifteen years, and at one point he helped pull me together when I was losing it badly.  *sigh*  I guess my life would be better without asking for more prejudice in it, even though he says "Even if you do mutilate yourself to look like a woman, which you'll never really be, I'll still be your friend."  (There was so much in that phone call that I'm still remembering parts of it.)  But with friends like that, who needs enemies.

Val

I have a lot of people in my life who do things I don't exactly think are kosher.  That I don't agree with, and/or don't endorse.  We AGREE TO DISAGREE and get on with it.  If he can let it go, you should too.

Quote from: Val on June 30, 2008, 07:17:40 PM"Even if you do mutilate yourself to look like a woman, which you'll never really be, I'll still be your friend." 

OUCH!

Either he can be educated, or not, but with a mindset like that, it's doubtful.  That is just plain mean.

Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 30, 2008, 08:21:50 PM

Quote from: Val on June 30, 2008, 07:17:40 PM"Even if you do mutilate yourself to look like a woman, which you'll never really be, I'll still be your friend." 

OUCH!

Either he can be educated, or not, but with a mindset like that, it's doubtful.  That is just plain mean.

Jay

Val,
sounds like your "friend" does not know his butt from a hole in the ground.  I have been following the thread and I now said he is no friend with that kind of phobia.  Tell him to kiss off.  Sorry.

Jay,
Yes he could be educated.... with a brick.

Janet

Quote from: Val on June 30, 2008, 07:17:40 PM
even though he says "Even if you do mutilate yourself to look like a woman, which you'll never really be, I'll still be your friend." 

I'm afraid my answer would have been, "No, you've just made it clear that you aren't my friend." 

I understand, though.  It hurts to lose a close friend.  No matter what the present is like, there are still cherished moments from the past that will be forever lodged in your heart, which just leaves you wishing you could go back to how it was back then.  Unfortunately, sometimes there just is no going back, so your only option is to turn away and move forward instead.

Maybe he'll come around in time, but I fear that if you don't want him taking you apart one little slice at a time, you may have to just mourn the loss, then move on.  I'm sorry you have to go through this.  :'(

I disagree with alot of people on this thread.

I dont think he is transphobic, or not a good friend. Nor does that deserve a telling him to kiss OFF.

Alot of the times the best friends we have, have really oppisite views of the world than ourselves.

Like Tekla said, AGREE to DiSAGREE and get on with life.

He is just the friend that you know you can make feel uncomfotable whenever you want haha, its on him... Not you.

He said he would still support you as a friend. He's just the backasswards thinking dont like trans people friend.

Still your friend.

Jordan - I'll agree that friends don't have to like the fact that you're trans.  And they may think you are making a mistake.  But a real friend would never be so cruel about it.  It's his sheer callousness that makes him deserve the boot, IMO.

He sounds like my mother. But she added "no one in this family has ever been transsexual!"  :o

The truth is, I experienced a total change over in friends. I had a few guy friends, and in fact they were amazingly supportive. But within two years, we just didn't have much in common anymore, and I developed female friendships instead.

It's interesting to me about your wife--though I'm majorly hacked at her for letting your dog loose. In my previous incarnation, I always chose or was attracted to women who had one degree or another of attraction to their own gender. Since I'm a Lesbian, I still do, and now I see that it was perfectly predictable and natural. But at the time I thought, wow, this is so weird!  ::)

Stealth

Posted on: August 28, 2008, 07:54:38 AM

---

I just wanted to add, that I had two female friends to whom I came out, and told that I was going to transition. These two gals both took the time to express, very caringly, that they thought I might be making a big mistake, that they thought I was a fine man and might be reacting to stresses from other areas of my life.

Well, time has proven that my transition was absolutely the right thing to do, but I still remember what these two friends did with great warmth, because I know it was motivated by genuine love, not transphobia. One feels like an attack...the other feels like a warm breeze.

Stealth

Quote from: Jamie-o on August 28, 2008, 06:51:11 AM
Jordan - I'll agree that friends don't have to like the fact that you're trans.  And they may think you are making a mistake.  But a real friend would never be so cruel about it.  It's his sheer callousness that makes him deserve the boot, IMO.

You are right he should have never been so cruel with it, but I am the kind of person who will kill you with kindness, give him some time and he'll get it eventually if he truly considers you a friend....

The fact of the matter  is he said some very cruel things to you. I say kick him to the curb like garbage and move on.

While I didn't kick him to the curb, we are no longer in any form of communication.  He flat out refused to call me Val - in fact he refused to even hear my name.  He said he would never, ever refer to me by female pronouns.  He treated me like garbage and refused to accept the possibility that I might, just might, be right.  I don't want that in my life. 

I especially don't want him telling me that my family is just humoring me, when my mom, my sister and my stepdaughter all repeatedly tell me they like Val much better than they like D.  I've talked to my sister more in the past week than I did between the years of 1996 and 2007.

So sure, maybe he's trainable, but not by me.

Val

I'm sorry to hear about his attitude.

You're right, though, you don't need that in your life. Gather all of your positives around you and let yourself feel as great as you should feel. It's nice you have understanding people.

I think the closer someone is the more it hurts.
This was your best friend and you expect them to be on your side. Comming out seems to create so many voids in ourlives. I hope you find someone else to fill that place.

Wonder what it is like on the other end. I wonder if it is like how I reacted badly when I found out a great friend of mine had joined christianity of a form that was against our 'lifestyle'. I blew my top. I was so dissapointed and gutted. Yet it made her happy. I did the whole tirade trying to unconvert her. It was nasty and I wish I hadn't.

Why is it people want to preserve every single relationship from their past?

The guy was 3 hours away, obviously didn't see the physical changes of hormone therapy, other changes in facial grooming (eyebrows, beard removal, makeup). He was effectively out of the picture until brought in by a phone call he didn't want to get in the first place.

Why was it even necessary to call this dude? Once the phone call progressed to the point where he became bizarre in his bigotry, why was the conversation prolonged?

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 30, 2008, 08:21:50 PM

Quote from: Val on June 30, 2008, 07:17:40 PM"Even if you do mutilate yourself to look like a woman, which you'll never really be, I'll still be your friend." 

OUCH!

Either he can be educated, or not, but with a mindset like that, it's doubtful.  That is just plain mean.

Jay

To hell with that insensitive prick...

And the population of elephants has risen btw... No seriously... Its mad statistical

Quote from: Liann on September 08, 2008, 03:19:04 AM
Why is it people want to preserve every single relationship from their past?

The guy was 3 hours away, obviously didn't see the physical changes of hormone therapy, other changes in facial grooming (eyebrows, beard removal, makeup). He was effectively out of the picture until brought in by a phone call he didn't want to get in the first place.

Why was it even necessary to call this dude? Once the phone call progressed to the point where he became bizarre in his bigotry, why was the conversation prolonged?

Why was it necessary to call him?  Well, he was my best friend.  We had been friends for 14 years and had been there for each other in some tough times.  We talked on the phone a fair amount (weekly?  every other week?) even though he moved away.  He was still a large part of my life.  I wasn't about to just disappear on him.  It's not like he was somebody who was a friend of a friend from 8 years prior.

Why did the phone call continue?  Partially because I couldn't get a word in edgewise.  Partially because I wanted to try to reach him, this person who had been a friend for over a third of my life.  Partially because he was one of the first non-family I had come out to, and he had been a good friend, so I thought this might be about as good as it gets so I better try to hold on.

Val

I'd've hung up and threw the phone at the wall if I were you. Good for you to be more mature than me. But yeah he's an arse, move on as best as can be done. -hugs-

Quote from: Val on September 08, 2008, 07:57:48 PM

Quote from: Liann on September 08, 2008, 03:19:04 AM
Why is it people want to preserve every single relationship from their past?

The guy was 3 hours away, obviously didn't see the physical changes of hormone therapy, other changes in facial grooming (eyebrows, beard removal, makeup). He was effectively out of the picture until brought in by a phone call he didn't want to get in the first place.

Why was it even necessary to call this dude? Once the phone call progressed to the point where he became bizarre in his bigotry, why was the conversation prolonged?

Why was it necessary to call him?  Well, he was my best friend.  We had been friends for 14 years and had been there for each other in some tough times.  We talked on the phone a fair amount (weekly?  every other week?) even though he moved away.  He was still a large part of my life.  I wasn't about to just disappear on him.  It's not like he was somebody who was a friend of a friend from 8 years prior.

Why did the phone call continue?  Partially because I couldn't get a word in edgewise.  Partially because I wanted to try to reach him, this person who had been a friend for over a third of my life.  Partially because he was one of the first non-family I had come out to, and he had been a good friend, so I thought this might be about as good as it gets so I better try to hold on.

Val

Sorry, Val, honey. Now I'm as insensitive as your friend. Let's resolve together to give better advice so that people stop repeating bad moves. Write up your experience in detail, including the no-word-in-edgewise part and post it on a blog somewhere. Tell other girls thinking of outing themselves where the link is so they can read it themselves and pass it on to the hard-of-hearing too. Let's try to get some lemonade out of these lemons, or lemon meringue pie, or lemon ice, or lemon cake, heck, let's have a lemon party, girl.

Your friend needs a serious 2008 educational upgrade, as he is a walking encyclopedia of outmoded, obsolete and discredited theories.

Unfortunately mental health professionals are the most resistant to change bad data in their databanks -- it's called "denial" when non-professionals do it.

Send him my email and I'll re-educate him in his language. PM me or email me for my email address. I'm not going to make it easy for spam harvesters to glean my email by posting it in a public place.

Anyway, your other experiences will probably go smoother, because that is as bad as it can possibly get.

I lost a friend of 30 years once -- where do you go to replace a 30-year friendship?

He was once your best friend, and best friends have an open door to hurt you the worst. We don't keep up a wall of defenses against best friends, do we Val? As a professional in the field he had a special duty to curb his tongue. He didn't Val. He hurt you, and some of it was deliberate. Some was pure inner mean streak. He hasn't kept up with findings in his own professional field, and you put him on the spot about that. You didn't do it to embarrass him -- you had your own reasons to tell him what's important in your life which had nothing to do with is profession. He let you down as a friend and God only knows how much malpractice he does professionally with his misunderstandings.

You may never heal fully in a hundred years, but you can move on with your own dignity and wear your scars as marks of experience. Life is real, sometimes pain and scars are real which never go away fully.

You can't save every relationship. Your shouldn't have to. There's 6 billion people out there and even if only one in a thousand are worth knowing, that's still 6 million great people that you have yet to meet. One of them is going to be your next best friend.

Liann, you weren't anywhere near as insensitive as he was.  I haven't dwelled on it too much since the second conversation with him and my posting.  So much good has happened since then that it's not worth the effort to win him over and I'm much better off. 

But luckily he's *not* a mental health professional by any means.  He has a degree in Psychology and grew up living it (his father was a respected professor of Psychology and the chairman of a university Psych department).  This means that he's an expert in the field, of course, and there's no telling him otherwise.  When I referenced a study showing that post-op trans suicide was not 90% he said "They can make documentaries say anything".

I've written him off.  The guy is more stubborn than a mule.  He's right and everyone who disagrees with him is wrong.  Period.  End of question. 

And yes, coming out got much better.  I have real friends now.

Val